BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 01:47 PM

No, it doesn't matter at all. Big deal if the Prez is into child sacrifice. Make sure your kids register for the upcoming draft.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 01:26 PM

*COOL!* Any extra room for a frozen Canuck in that '74 VW Thing Nicole?

BTW if it makes anyone feel any better, Moloch is no 'demon'. According to Farrar's dictionary of 'The Gods of the World',
Moloch is (was) a deliberate Hebrew misvocalization of the Phoenician 'm-l-k' ('malek' or 'melek') meaning simply 'king' or 'lord', The Hebrews turned this title into a derogatory word for a 'heathen' god - in this case, Baal-Hammon of Carthage, the ancient god of fertility, vegetation and wisdom, to whom sacrifices were allegedly made.

But animal sacrifices were ritually offered by the Hebrews to Yahweh even up to Jesus' time, if not later. And it's odd that Yahweh Himself commanded Abraham to sacrifice his own son Isaac as a token of loyalty! Must have been the politically correct thing for these tribal gods to do at the time ...

Apparently the ancient Hebrews did the same 'demonizing' with the word Sin. 'Sin' was the ancient Chaldean, Sumerian, Assyro-Babylonian God of the Moon, of wisdom, of measuring time. Known as "He whose deep heart no god may penetrate', he was the enemy of evil-doers, portrayed as a old man with a beard the color of lapis lazuli. Mount Sinai was named after him. But we all know what his name means today! So does that make him a 'demon' now? Hmmmmmm

More importantly, does it really matter at all?

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 01:18 PM

Far out, man!! Just don't drive through that grove place. I hear they sacrifice virgins, and are very nearsighted as well.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:59 PM

All-riiight! I'll harvest some of the buds growing in my closet, wax up my surfboard and drive down in my '74 VW Thing!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:53 PM

Hey, Nicole -- we're having a love-in next month -- bring your yacht!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:51 PM

point 3 is not proven. Amazing jump of conclusion from toasting marshmallows in hte open air to "sacrifice." Where's your evidence for "sacrifice" and "demonological" and "owl god." Sorry, this elevator is missing too many floors (and I don't think it goes all the way to the top).

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:45 PM

Raedwulf opines, "...I believe he's just participating...in some juvenile frat tradition...."

Oh yeah...frats burn children in human sacrificial ceremonies. Whacky frats. What was I thinking? I'm glad GW gets time off from the job to burn babies, or he might make a mess of things, huh?

But enough sarcasm. What are the facts in this case?:
*Bohemian Grove exists
*The Bushes go there
*Each July they have a 'Creamtion of Care' ceremony where they sacrifice to a 40-foot stone owl. Even if you don't believe the video that was taken at the risk of life, there are plenty of credible descriptions of the ceremony on the internet...from upright social figures who apparently view human sacrifice like you do...just a frat thing.
*CONCLUSION: We have a man in the White House who participates in demonological human sacrifice ceremonies.
*PROGNOSIS: Not good, unless you're a 40-foot owl god.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:30 PM

"And forgive me for not acknowledging California as the model of sanity we all know it to be."

Ahhh... now I understand. It's believable because everyone knows all sorts of crazy stuff goes on in California!

And if you know all about California (population 34 million) from Annette Funicello beach party movies and a few tired videos of 60's love-ins, I guess it all makes perfect sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST,Raedwulf
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 04:21 AM

Nah, Troll, you're wrong. What Guest really is, is a spotty adolescent, child of a long absent, but abusive & alcoholic, father & a hooker. This could easily explain the desparate insecurity, that runs alongside the constant need to seek attention that has been perpetually displayed. Obviously brought up in such an appalling environment, it would also explain Guest's inability to understand the logical demolotion of his 'theories' that has been offered time & again by virtually every board member who has bothered to reply to him. And unsurprisingly, this poor, neglected child is also a complete social inadequate who can only interact through a keyboard, limiting his education, world view, & social skills even further, thus resulting in the regular abuse sprinkled ranting that he posts...

Well, it's a good theory, isn't it? It certainly fits all of the available evidence doesn't it? The trouble is, Guest Nutball, (assuming you're still reading this & haven't gone off on a froth-at-the-mouth fruit loop) there are thousands of possible sets of circumstances that could produce the kind of person who would post the inane garbage that you do. I just made my theory up. Is it right? I very much doubt it, but I'll lay odds on that most people on this board would lend a thousand times more credence to *my* self-admittedly invented theory, than they would to any of those of yours that you so desparately need to believe in.

As to "Modern man worshipping Moloch", no you didn't need to repeat it fourteen times before I could understand it. You believe it's absolutely true, I believe he's just participating (assuming he is actually there anyway, which seems doubtful) in some juvenile frat tradition. Shall I repeat that for your benefit fourteen times, or do you get the message first time? I see no 'evidence'. I see no 'proof'. Nobody here has seen any 'evidence' or 'proof'. Images can very, very easily be manipulated, or even faked in this day & age (clue: the machine you're using to talk to the rest of us is probably capable of doing the job...).

Stop saying "the video shows...", because it shows f*** all! Prove that is genuine. Prove it has not been manipulated. Prove it has not been faked. If you manage to do that, you then have to prove that they really believe in Moloch & aren't just playing around, having a fun bonfire.

For crying out loud, Guest, even the man you're using as evidence says 'mock sacrifice'. Mock Sacrifice. MOCK SACRIFICE. MOCK SACRIFICE!!! Am I getting through yet? Etcetera. But you seem to have decided they're sacrificing real victims all by your little, lone, sad, self...

You don't want to believe us. You just like the attention & the sound of your own voice.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: stevetheORC
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 03:00 AM

OK having looked at a number of your threads, I gather that you Hate GW and his company of merry men, you also believe that we are all going to die ( well ok that bits true and holds water)everything is a great cospiracy ( but the rest of the world cant/wont see it)
What exactly are YOU going to do about it!!!!

Now if everything that you say is TRUE then shit why worry cos we is all dead anyhow!!! and what will this demon worshiping mob get out of a dead world??? cos if we is all gone who are they going to boss around???

Live Long and keep your fantasy to yourself, the rest of us have enough proplems in the real world without you adding to them.

ORC'S are great diplomats!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 03 - 12:17 AM

The Bushes will be wanting your crematorium expertise before long, NicoleC. Send that resume to the White House.

And it's Polly Klaas...foundation named after her. Petaluma, CA. And forgive me for not acknowledging California as the model of sanity we all know it to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 11:17 PM

"The bodies are burned to ash, no doubt."
Bwahahahaha!

Heaven forbid that the voice of science intrudes, BUT --

Okay, do me a favor, since you love surfing the internet for "truth." Look up the average temperature inside, say, a large bonfire -- heck, let's say a petroleum fueled bonfire -- and the temperature required to cremate a body.

Here's a hint -- even today, our crematoriums at 2000+ degrees Farenheit can't completely burn bones. They have to be pulverized.

"But that area of California is notorious for it's number of kids found in shallow graves"
Damn, it is? You know, I live in "that are of California." As you might guess, I keep up with the news, and I can't say I've ever heard such an allegation. No Cal if notorious for many other things, mind you, but not kids found in shallow graves.

*BRRRRRNT* Wrong answer, try again.

You know, I think all those Bohemian Grove conspiracy theorists get it confused with Burning Man.

P.S. Of course, you had better not believe me. I might be Dick Cheney trying to cover my tracks!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Ebbie
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 11:08 PM

The History of the
Burning of Will Shuster's Zozobra

Zozobra is a hideous but harmless fifty-foot bogeyman marionette. He is a toothless, empty-headed facade. He has no guts and doesn't have a leg to stand on. He is full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. He never wins. He moans and groans, rolls his eyes and twists his head. His mouth gapes and chomps. His arms flail about in frustration. Every year we do him in. We string him up and burn him down in ablaze of fireworks. At last, he is gone, taking with him all our troubles for another whole year. Santa Fe celebrates another victory. Viva la Fiesta! - A.W. Denninger

Ah, GuestQ, but maybe he is real? Can you personally prove that he is not? Sounds dark and ominous to me.

Frankly, I like best troll's insight. I think he has blown GUEST's cover; GUEST is working for the CIA and is botching it. Just wait until they catch on. GUEST is going to have to pull his computer under the bed with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 11:03 PM

Bill Clinton got a blowjob and it stopped the U.S. government in it's tracks. I guess GW participating in human sacrifices isn't as serious a character issue as a blowjob. What the heck was I thinking?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST,Q
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 10:59 PM

Go to Santa Fe in September when the locals burn Zozobra at the stake. Join in the cheers as he burns in agony. This yearly affair makes the Bohemian Club bonfire pale into clichéd insignificance.
Free to everyone, no club fees necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Troll
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 10:37 PM

GUEST, you have obviously been brainwashed by the CIA to post these totally fantastic acusations against the Bush family. Their reasons for having you do this are not yet quite clear but may have to do with using you as some kind of Red Herring to shift attention away from other matters.

OK, BOZO. PROVE THAT I'M WRONG!!!

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 10:29 PM

Children sacrificed to Moloch? Yes. That's one of the reasons the Romans wiped out the Carthagenians. For some reason they hated human sacrifice. Since Scipio Africanus plowed salt into the dead earth of Carthage, There's no evidence the cult has survived.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:55 PM

You have to be able to recall what was said at one site as you go to another, Buck. Requires cognitive ability. Sorry you're not up to it. Your 'big picture' will always be the size of a postage stamp, but then you'll always be happy.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:52 PM

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/4026447.htm

Florida's embattled child-welfare agency -- the Department of Children & Families -- employs at least 183 people who have been arrested and punished for an array of felonies including child molestation, child abuse, sex crimes, drug dealing, even welfare fraud against the agency itself, a Herald investigation has found.

For instance, the head of the agency's data-security team in Tallahassee is listed on the state's list of sexual predators for molesting a 5-year-old boy...

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:45 PM

bullshit. you provided a link to a phony hoax website. not even worthy of writing up in a tabloid for checkout line consumption. Sam Raimi did better when he was 22. Are you really completely unfamiliar with notions of credible evidence and the demands of logical skepticism?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:44 PM

The bodies are burned to ash, no doubt. But that area of California is notorious for it's number of kids found in shallow graves. Polly Klass (sp?) was found there...big nationwide story with laws resulting from her murder. If you want stories on bodies and Bushes, just look at Florida's record (Bush state). The man Jeb appointed to manage the Child Protective Services database is a convicted child sex offender, and thousands of kids are missing in Florida.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:41 PM

Voices? I have SHOWN you Bohemian Grove, the Bushes attending the rituals there, human sacrifice by fire at those rituals, and Bush saying he's going to burn American troops. No one has yet dispelled the nagging feeling I have that the Bushes are demon-worshippers.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:36 PM

And these hypothetical sacrificed babies' bodies are *where* exactly?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 09:17 PM

Guest, ya gotta realize, sometimes the voices are only kidding.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 08:49 PM

But this isn't MY vision. It's the Bush family's. And I don't much care for it. Sure, maybe Moloch got GW off the bottle, but I don't think having a pResident who might be drinking baby's blood is any more interested in our well-being than one who drinks Jim Beam. And do I HAVE to be tolerant of demon-worshippers like the Bushes? Can't I be just a LITTLE politically incorrect here and say I don't think burning babies is OK? The subject of anti-semitism came up earlier, well, can I be just a LITTLE politcally incorrect and say I think the Nazis put a couple of toes over the line when they murdered millions of Jews? Nah...I think Moloch-worshipping is a bit much. I'm against it.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:41 PM

You berate others for supposedly being resistant to new ideas, while clinging to pathetic superstitions like demons?

GUEST, you may believe what you wish, whether it's in some hypothetical sacrifice to a demon (and why is that more horrifying that sacrificing soldiers to the demon of Money?) or in some conspiracy about the WTC bombings back when shrubs were planted around the white house 100 years ago. I think it's safe to say that we don't share your paranoid visions.

I have my own paranoid, visions, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:36 PM

Well I don't imagine it would have gone down too well with the voters if he'd said that he owed his recovery from alcoholism to Moloch.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:32 PM

You fossils are certainly resistant to new ideas. Or rather, the resurgence of old ideas. Bush goes to Bohemian Grove, where they have child/fire sacrifices to an ancient demon, and his military just announced it plans to burn young Americans in Iraq...historically the mother of all demon-plagued areas of the world.

And this isn't any third-party voodoo scenario, where you have to BELIEVE in the voodoo for it to work. Or maybe it is, so wait a minute...THERE! I just imagined GWBush DOESN'T have his finger on the button, so that makes the possibility of him being a demon-worshipper a moot point, right?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:27 PM

early in the campaign, I remember Bush making clear that he considered Jesus as responsible for his recovery from moderate alcoholism...He is as 'sure' of his moral/religious ground as any devout Muslim, and I have no doubt that it is only with great restraint that he does not inject this righteousness into the public/political arena more overtly.

There was a semi-cute little bumper-sticker joke going around a few years ago..."Kill a Commie for Christ". Only, in some folks minds, it is not so funny...and various things can be substituted for 'commie'.

No...I do not read minds, and I do not 'know' exactly how Bush, or anyone else, thinks. But I think I'd be scared out of my wits if I did!

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:24 PM

Hey, I live up here in the woods of Northern California. The people here worship large SUV's, not this Moloch guy.
I suppose they smoke a little weed now and then. Do you think Bush does that? Hell, does he even come to Northern California? I've never seen the guy, and I hope I never do.

Actually, you can find some interesting information about the Bohemian Club rumors at hoaxinfo.com. I think the person who started this thread has provided convincing proof that bush might belong to a rich boys' club - but didn't we know that already? I think it's also been proven that the person who started this thread is somewhat of a crackpot.

-Joe Offer, who drives a Honda Civic-

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 07:10 PM

A bit weird for someone who likes going in for "crusades", even if it was all just some kinky rich kids game. But then a bit weird is what you'd expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 06:16 PM

...and did mention that I hadn't seen 'proof' that the.....oh, yeah, I guess I did...

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 04:46 PM

Secrecy begets rumor, and gullible conspiracy theorists hate to be on the outside. If there's anything worse than looking in at a group you'll never belong to, it's not being allowed to look in! If it's secret, therefore it must be evil, right?



Nicole:

You make my heart sing!! LOL!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 04:22 PM

*sigh* Okay, but only for the sake of enlightening the clueless.

"The place exists"
Yes. Bohemian Grove is a private club in Sonoma County. It was found c. 1879 by a group of journalists who wanted to have a bash in the woods and do what we would call "networking" today.
Membership is exclusive, but not very expensive as private clubs go. Membership happens to include many major political figures, most of whom are definately leaning toward the right. The clubs activities are very private and exclusive.

The above can be said about many other private clubs, college fraternal organizations and societies.

"and our 'president' engages in human-sacrifice / burning ceremonies there."
GWBush the Lesser is a member, as were many past presidents. While many rumors abound about what goes on inside the club including human sacrifice, there is no proof. Testimonial accounts of "infiltrators" are notoriously inaccurate for any activity, let alone one for which so much rumor abounds, and particularly since they don't agree with each other. Videos looked faked. They are not neccessarily taken on site and can easily be digitally manipulated.

Proof: NONE
Human-sacrifice: Allegations that have not held up under investigation
Burning ceremonies: Who cares? Having a bonfire is illegal? Better tell every college in the country to cancel their pep rallys!
Presidential involvement: Unproven. He may or may not have been present at any of these purported ceremonies and many or may not have taken part.
Worship of Moloch: also unproven and merely hypothesized. Originally, the attendees burned the mascot of Care to symbolize that they were going to put their cares aside and have fun.

"And now he's getting ready to launch 'pre-emptive' fireballs at the rest of the world and burn our troops in the field. "
Irrelevant, unless you happen to buy all of the above.

"And how can the human sacrifice to Moloch be compared to the Christian sacrament for the purposes of this discussion?"
Yes, yes, I can do that. From where I'm sitting, Christianity looks like a cult that glorifies the sacrifice of a "king" in order to save the land and people. Hardly original in religious mythos and very ancient in origin. If the rumors said Bohemian Grove took a big tofu body, roasted it, sliced it an ate it, no doubt everyone would be decrying "cannabalistic rituals."

Is it pagan worship? I doubt it, but I don't care, because I don't equate "pagan" with bad anymore than I equate "Christian" with good. Freedom of religion cuts both ways.

My guess at the truth: There are some legitimate concerns about Bohemian Grove. Big movers and shakers get together and get drunk and make deals that may affect the citizenry. Hence, the origin of the protests. Quite frankly, this can happen in a bar in Georgetown, so I am less worried about what politicians do than trying to get honest ones in office.

Secrecy begets rumor, and gullible conspiracy theorists hate to be on the outside. If there's anything worse than looking in at a group you'll never belong to, it's not being allowed to look in! If it's secret, therefore it must be evil, right?

Yeah, there's probably a bonfire. Yeah, they give some speeches. Yeah, I bet they get drunk and if some of 'em aren't doing drugs I'd be surprised. I'm guessing a lot of whoring and such goes on. Those good ol' boys get together and cut loose. Of course they don't want anyone to find out, as it doesn't fit their carefully crafted cleancut image.

Uh huh.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 04:03 PM

I didn't see anything to indicate any level of credible "proof" that GW is involved in any way other than perhaps to have been on the same planet (I said "perhaps") when the (clearly phony) events were staged.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: *daylia*
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:52 PM

GUEST every time a Catholic priest says Mass, he symbolically re-enacts the torture, execution, death, and public consumption of the body of his slain God! The same way as the Eastern Woodland nations of this continent would ritually torture, kill and then eat the bodies of the brave young warriors they had captured.

It stunned and horrified the Jesuit missionaries first witnessing this among the Huron and Iroquois, not only that the young captives were decorated and treated with utmost respect and ceremony by their captors, but that they were truly ecstatic, singing joyously throughout the whole ordeal! To be courageous enough to be sacrificed was the ultimate honor, the ultimate end of 'godhood' for those young men. But what the Jesuits, (who labelled them savage brutes in sorry need of 'redemption') didn't understand is that the Mass they say every day is exactly the same ritual, carried out for the same purposes, in symbolic form.

Ancient rituals enacting and evoking the power of the fundamental mystery of life - that life feeds on death, requires death - are universal throughout human history. Everything you eat was once alive, be it plant or animal. We must kill to eat, we must eat to live. Without death, there is no life. That is the 'horrific' nature of life, of Creation! The names and dates of the peoples and deities change, but the basic song remains the same. The God of Life, of Fertility and Wisdom is exactly the same as the God of War, of Death. The 'Lord of the Dance', of life and death, birth and rebirth, so to speak. So there is nothing new or strange here.

I did watch part of the videos, but the quality is so poor I gave up unable to recognize any of the images with certainty. And I did read Alex Jones' story "Bohemian Grove". Its worthy of mention that even the author states he is not certain whether an effigy or a human being was burned at that alleged ritual!

But even if the President of the US et al are engaged in rituals of this type, is this something which truly threatens me? Not in the least! ... unless I believe that the ritual has the power to affect me! Then my terror and hopelessness may very well get the best of me!

The same way as only people who believe in the power of a voodoo hex to harm them can be victimized by such things. There's no 'dark magic' here except the dark magic of the human mind!

So what's the best thing I can do right now? Get back to enjoying and celebrating and being productively creative in every moment of my truly miraculous existence right here and now? You betcha!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:48 PM

OK, show me what's so off-target about my assertions. The place exists, and our 'president' engages in human-sacrifice / burning ceremonies there. And now he's getting ready to launch 'pre-emptive' fireballs at the rest of the world and burn our troops in the field. So let me in on the joke. Why do I not view this as funny?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:43 PM

It'd make a great film though, wouldn't it - the Demon President. The Central Incantation Agency. The Fiendish Bureau of Infestation. The Evil Office. Buffy the Intern to sort things out...

There was this quiz on the TV and someone was asked where Dracula came from. "Pennsylvania" was the response. Why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:28 PM

what a load of crap. that "film" is phonier than Plan 9 From Outer Space. What next, Art Bell?????

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:16 PM

"The burden of proof is on the assertor"...no one has to prove 'wrong' a complex theory built on a few facts, linked in someone's head in an arcane way. Lest this not be misunderstood..""The burden of proof is on the assertor""...that is, if you make a claim, YOU, the assertor, have to prove it...it has to be proof that would satisfy the majority of competent observers, not just someone who already has the will to believe this sort of thing.

(Did I mention that "proof" is a pretty stringent requirement, and that the one who offers the theory is the one who needs to GIVE that proof?)

Oh, BTW, proof is a lot more than showing a few pictures, and then speculating wildly about the 'intent' of those depicted in the images, or claimed to have been in the vicinity.

p.s..... there are those who are a bit picky about what they accept as 'proof', or did I mention that?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 03:01 PM

I think you are confusing disdain for desperation. No "proof" stands, because you've yet to present any.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:44 PM

There are dozens of photos of Bohemian Grove on the internet...from various sources. There is no doubt the video was filmed at the site in northern California. The ritual takes place once a year.

And how can the human sacrifice to Moloch be compared to the Christian sacrament for the purposes of this discussion? GWBush claims to be a Christian, yet he participates in the worship of Moloch. How can that be? The two can't be reconciled.

You people sound pretty desperate to disprove this, but the proof still stands. Keep on trying to convince me our president doesn't engage in human sacrifice rituals to an ancient pagan god. I want to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: NicoleC
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:32 PM

I want to thank our GUEST for some of the funniest stuff I've read this week.

Ah, yes, the "InfoWars" site -- true tales ripped from the pages of the finest comic book journalism. The video looks like a poorly staged school play overlaid with curiously higher-resolution still pictures of "damning" evidence. Adobe Premier, anyone? The global elite? Nowhere in the video. The crowd noises? Damn, if it doesn't sound like "Applause #13" out of the Sound Ideas sound effects library, volumn #31.

Just because a conspiracy web site says so doesn't mean it's true. If the New York Times busts this story open, I might consider it, because they have a vested interest in trying to protect their reputation. The only reputation this web site has is churning out a bunch of outlandish stories. Hey, they might even print a true one occassionally -- but the goal is to shock and astonish, not to present truth.

"All indicators?" What, a fuzzy video that may or may not be fake and may or may not have anything to do with the people in question? Unsubstantiated allegations? There's nothing to refute or disprove, because no proof has been presented of any kind.

Anyway, so what if our President worships an ancient diety? Hey, guess what, he DOES!

Somehow mock sacrifices to a God seems no more sick to me than consuming the flesh and drinking the blood of a diety during Communion. Somehow sacrificing lives to Moloch seems no more sickening than sacrificing lives to the God Jehovah in a crusade against Islam, sacrificing lives to the God of Oil, the God of Capitalism or the God of Democracy.

There's enough nasty crap going on in government without having to resort to bogeyman tales and the tired rehashing of variations on urban legands and conspiracy tales that have been around for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:14 PM

There is no firm evidence of human sacrifice. There is evidence of a ritualistic ceremony which emulates human sacrifice. It is not dissimilar to the Sacrament in which people do some weird shit with blood and flesh, symbolized by Gallo and saltines.

Now, if you want a phancy interpretation about the transcendance of fleshly concerns for the good of the Higher Group, I can write one for ya but I charge for the time. In advance.

It is also not clear that these people are genuinely worshiping anything, except power itself. 'Course that whole point is a semantic minefield. SInce the translation of Moloch itself is closely related to secular leaders such as a king, or president, it is possible they are "celebrating" the accrual of power in secular affairs tot he detriment of their spiritual standards.

By the way, the original concept of the Divine Trinity was anchored around Baal, whom Moloch allegedly serves. Baal is the Hebrew word used to describe the god Melq'art, sone of El and brother of Astarte, the mother-goddess in the ancient Phoenician hierarchy. As such, Baal was the sun god. The Ammonites, later than the Phenicians, added the overlay of Moloch and his sacrifices of children through fire. Originally, Meq'art was simply the divine representation of seasons, sunlight, and fire.

Finally the traditional image of Moloch is not an owl, but a human/bull combination. The owl was symbolic of Lilith the night-witch, a stealer of children, but not renowned for burning them, as far as I know.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 01:08 PM

It TRULY PAINS me to present this crap to people,

Oh, I really feel your pain...

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 12:57 PM

But this isn't my 'belief'. The film is there. The ceremony is there. It was filmed. Modern man worshipping Moloch. And one of those modern men is our so-called president. Our president is worshipping Moloch. So WHAT if it's just 'ritual'. Our president is worshipping Moloch. Let me repeat, in case some of the finer points in this were lost on you...our president is worshipping Moloch. Does that get through? Explain away all you want, but our president is taking part in a human-sacrifice ritual and worshipping Moloch. He is worshipping Moloch, in case you didn't understand part of this. THAT is the reality, and I wish I WERE detached from it, but in THIS world...the real world...GWBush is worshipping Moloch. Don't you see that as a bit of a problem?

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST,Raedwulf
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 02:42 AM

Get real. It's a bonding ritual at best. They're not 'worshipping' a demon, just linking with each other. All societies; malignant or benevolent, secret, political, fraternal, religious, whatever; do this sort of thing, because it fulfills a basic human need for belonging to some sort of group (even loners, contradictory as that may sound).

It doesn't mean that they actively 'believe' in, nor that they are trying to reconstruct the creed of, some god whose original worship passed out of the world several thousnad years ago.

If (big "if", unbelievable "if", IMO) they really do want to see thousands of their own slaughtered, it'll be for pragmatic reasons, not from devotion to a dead god.

How many silly little rituals & ceremonies are enacted right across the US every week in universities, colleges, sports teams & the gods know where else? This is just another one of those. As Sorcha says, you raised it, you *prove* it beyond any doubt. Anyone can stick a sinister voice-over on an otherwise innocent vid-clip. I bet if Dubya responded in kind, he could reveal all sorts of sinister agenda & intent on the part of the film-maker. Who you going to believe?

When it comes down to it, what you 'want' to believe is anything & everything negative you hear about Bush & The Establishment. Whether it's true or not doesn't actually matter very much, I fear. I could theorize about what kind of thrills you get out of all this paranoia & trolling that you're doing, but this latest load of rubbish is lame, even for you...

LH hits it almost smack on. Base your beliefs on facts wherever possible. Base your facts on your beliefs, & you'll wind up... well, where you already are. The trouble with all of your 'facts' is that they could be linked up & interpreted in thousands of different ways, most of them more or less inocent.

But you like/want/need to believe in only the sinister & awful possibilities. Which is why most people will continue to regard you as rather detached from reality...

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 12:26 AM

The videos are at the bottom of the page, Little Hawk. Passing the cursor over the text beside the photos should turn up a link. I just clicked one and it began opening with the RealOne Player...my default player.

Oh, and I just recalled the good ol' boy who made these films is married to a Jew, Scorcha.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 12:20 AM

Anti-semite. Gimme a break. I hate Sharon but I don't hate Jews. I hate GWBush but I don't hate imbeciles. It TRULY PAINS me to present this crap to people, but I see NO evidence to contradict it. We didn't let a court stuff a lunatic into the White House...he's just following some plan we're not familiar with. Even the money angles don't make sense of the mess GW's made of the world. And he DOES participate in ritual sacrifice at least once a year, so why not rack up some BIG points with Moloch? Nuke Houston, nuke Dallas. Call me names if you must, but talk me out of this nagging conviction that a demon worshipper has his finger on the button.

Subject: RE: BS: Sacrifice to Moloch?
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Jan 03 - 12:01 AM

Exactly, Little Hawk. Sorry I wasn't more explicit. Still looking for the "proof"...............but it's an ineresting hypothesis.......Moloch, huh? Human sacrifice, huh?.........