BS: Who's marching on February 15th?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 07:59 PM

What wonderful stories! Makes ol' Bobert wanta cry readin' 'em all.

Kat: You've come a long way, girl. From wondering what would happen if you put a peace bumper sticker on your car to getting out there in the cold and having at it! Now that really brings tears to my eyes. Right on. I love you!!!!

McGrath: I heard on one of the corporate news shows tonight that it was I million, which means two million... Good, real good.

Now as for New York. I heard Amy Goodman say that the police estimate was 500,000. So you can figure a cool 1 million! In DC last month the media referred to the number as "thousands". Well, yes. like 500 of those thousands. (Hey, Bobert, according to your Wes Ginny slide rule... that's like a half a million...)

Big day for democracy!!! Bad day for the Junior and the Autocrats...

Peace...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 07:52 PM

This is thread drift - but I'm not surprised about those Kurds.

From what I've read, the Kurds in Iraq, who now control their own part of the country, not the Baghdad government (which they detest, with good reason), are getting ready to fight the Turks, if they come across the border.

They see them as invaders, who have been repressing Kurds in Turkey for generations, and definitely as no kind of liberating army.

Subject: BS: Report from Western Colorado
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 07:42 PM

My sister and I went to the march here and it was terrific, esp. to connect with so many people from so many walks of life, ages, etc. I saw a gentleman in his WWII uniform and heard a speaker who was incarcerated as a conscientious objector during WWII; his ancestor started the Menonites in Switzerland or was it Sweden? Sorry I cannot remember.

There were over 20 rural communities represented with banners signed by thousands of people; those same banners had been carried in marches in Washington, D.C. and San Francisco. I signed one of them. Ridgeway, Telluride, Aspen, Glenwood Springs, Silt, New Castle, Delta, Montrose, Ouray, Norwood, Palisade, Clifton, Grand Junction...and more were represented. Over 400 people marched and drummed; sang and chanted; cried and cheered. We had a cop flash us the peace sign. In Telluride, at an earlier march, the local sheriff joined in.

We heard college students speak, grandmothers and grandfathers, mothers and fathers, veterans of wars and of peace movements, young children, there were babies and toddlers and there was even one organisation called Pets for Peace in which each marcher walked with their dog. One of those dogs had an adorable chest piece with the peace sign on it. The back piece of it said "Make snow not war!"

I took a few pictures and will add a link when I get them up. Thanks so much for the link which let me know this was going on here.

I got cold, hungry, and tired. From my waist down lost feeling because of the chill, BUT it was a GOOD day; my heart is aglow with hope and camaraderie.

Thanks in Peace,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:50 PM

Hi DoughR The guest above, is me InOBU sorry the cat ate my cookie for awhile, all the best, Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 06:48 PM

About 7500 in Minneapolis. But the really big story is, the numbers worldwide add up to MILLIONS.

Including, I noted, Kurds living just across the border from Iraq, in Turkey. Yes, that is right. The ethnic group the Bush administration always trots out as the example of Saddam's evilness, many of whom are refugees from 12 years of war in their region being waged by the British and US forces (supposedly enforcing the no-fly zone) demonstrated against the war.

As ole Bobert would say, hmmmmm.

It was VERY cold in Minneapolis. Around 15F. We learn to march fast, and speak quickly at the rallies, and then we're outta there!

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: *daylia*
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:56 PM

I'm happy to report that this afternoon's peace rally in traditionally conservative, sleepy little Barrie Ontario was a great success! About 300 people aged 3-83 turned out in spite of the bitter cold, very little publicity and only two day's notice.

The organizers, members of The Humanist Movement, read a declaration outlining the humanitarian reasons for refusing to make war on Iraq and decrying the recent (unprecedented?) $2 billion spent by the Can gov't on beefing up the military in preparation for this war. That inspired a lot of cheering and applause! Then they led the march through the frosty downtown streets.

In spite of the traffic disruption we caused (the organizers had been refused a permit to march from City Hall for reasons "unheard of before") reaction from both bystanders and passing motorists was nothing but encouraging and supportive. And the local media did show up after all.

A group of 4 high-school girls, calling themselves "The Radical Cheerleaders", led the chanting through a megaphone .... "Tell Bush we KNOW - this war is about OIL - this war is about CONTROL - this war has got to GO!" It was hopeful indeed to see teenagers supporting the cause of peace - and they made it lots of fun, too. All the more power to them!

Thank you so much to Mudcat for the information about this march in my hometown! Looking forward to reading everyone else's stories - hope the success of this MOST peaceful rally in Barrie was enjoyed by ALL people who marched for peace today worldwide. And now if my feet and fingers would just thaw out .......

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:55 PM

DoughR
Sadam Husain is not the one who is trying to pass a law, the Patriot Act 2 which for the first time, will strip citizenship from native born Americans, so that they can be tried by military tribunals or sent to countries like Egypt to be tortured. As a loyal American, and a Concervative, why is your voice not the loudest to stop this march to remove from us all that it means to be American, where is Leprichaun's voice in defense of the Constitution he swore to uphold. Yes many of us, I for one marched to bring attention to Sadam when he was oppressing the Kurds and still an ally of the US. WHere are you DougR, there is plenty of room on line here to defend the US from the real danger.
Cheers
A fellow American
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:40 PM

Why did I anticipate you'd say something like that, Doug? You're getting downright predictable.

War is not the only way to deal with the likes of Saddam Hussein, and a lot of people are trying to pont that out to Bush. But he's obviously a bit slow on the up-take. Like I mentioned somewhere else, to an incompetent carpenter who only knows how to use a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:38 PM

We were marching against Saddam, Doug, and lots of the posters specifically mentioned him.

And a fair number of American flag to be seen - being carried by Americans. It's your Government people hate, Norton, not your people or your country. Every poster knocking Bush was matched by one knocking Blair.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:37 PM

I just got home from Columbus where the crowd was pretty small. They said a news team had been there earlier. We have a Winter Storm Advisory in effect as well as 8 inches of fresh snow, but the roads are fair...sorta'. They were expecting a lot more but the weather I think played a part. Then again, this is a big cowtown so....... Anyway, I'm warmed up again and glad I went. they have folks who are staying til midnight.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:31 PM

Just back from London. Even the police estimated it as three-quarters of a million, and the organisers estimated 2 million. I don't know how you work out figures when it's this big.

It wasn't a march in a way, more just a huge mass of people that just came pouring on and on, splitting up and taking short cuts all over the place, and filling the whole street. Lots and lots of drum beaters in samba bands with dancers and all.

No hassles at all. Police very colourful in the yellow smocks they wear over their uniforms on occasions like this - and the ones who had to stand still in places like the entrance to Downing Street looked very cold. But no hostility either way - well, you knew that, with 84% of people against any war without UN approval (latest poll), you could assume most of them would have been on our side.

Mostly individual banners and posters rather than organisations, though there were plenty of them. Including a large one saying "Sex Workers of the World", which made a change from "Surrey Against the War", and so forth. Lots of nice nostalgic slogans like "Make Love Not War", and a fair number of "Make Tea not War".

It was getting bloody so I drifted off after the speeches were finished - you couldn't really hear them to understand, largely because there was a helicopter hovering directly over the speakers. But as I left I realised the street was still full of people coming in, and that continued as I walked back along side for best part of a mile.

Came home and switched on the telly - biggest protest match in this country ever, by a long way. But dwarfed by some of the others, notably the ones in Spain and Italy...

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: DougR
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:10 PM

Hey Bobert: if every marcher would ante up a dollar, there would be more than enough money to BUY time on all the networks, Cable News shows, and radio stations.

Don: it sounds to me the Fox News Network got it right! Why aren't those folks marching against Saddam and the oppression of his people?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:05 PM

CNN carried several hours of the peace demonstrations. From Australia to the UK and the United States. They reported millions of people. Seems like this was a very good thing. Nothing would make my day more than to see the world at peace and criminals in front of a world court.

If the Iraq issue facilitates this so much the better. So if you marched for peace today - good for you. If you marched because it is the in thing to do - good you supported the process. If you marched to be anti-American - (I'll be polite) *&^%$%@*&%$@(*&^*!%@ translate whatever way is the worst in your language.

My last on this - see you all -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 04:58 PM

Well, leprechaun, the way it looks is that the drum beaters are geeting about 99% of the media time and the anti-war folks about 1%. Now, I don't believe in polls but the anti-war folks represent around 40% of Americans, depending on which poll one believes. Now in a truely democratic nation,, one would think that there would be a little more coverage that what corporate media is willing to assign to those of us who are not pounding the war drums.

This has nothing to do woith me not wanting to hear the drum beaters but for the last several months, that is about all you hear.

Just asking for fainess and not manipulation of information. Tom Jefferson warned us that democracy works best when its participants are informed.

Where am I possibly asking too much?

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 04:12 PM

Seattle, Washington, Saturday, February 15, 2003, circa 1:00 p.m.:—

The local ABC, NBC, and CBS affiliates have nothing on at all (golf tournament, local show with beauty tips, etc.), Fox Network is saying "Why aren't all these misguided demonstrators protesting Saddam Hussein?" MSNBC is giving a demonstration of how to duct-tape your house, CNN Headlines is giving financial news, CNN is interviewing some mayor on his preparations for a terrorist attack. He's complaining that Bush has given him the responsibility, but not the funds, and National Guard call-ups have gutted his police and fire departments of personnel. Seattle's police chief said that same thing in an interview yesterday.

The only news channel locally carrying anything at all is the North West Cable News network (made up of TV news departments in major Pacific Northwest cities like Seattle, Portland, and Spokane). Demonstration in these cities are now well under way. No figures yet, but several tower-cams looking down on the crowd gathering at Seattle Center show thousands of people around the Seattle Center International Fountain (earlier report plus map of march route in the Seattle Times). 48 degress F., wind calm, raining. But the rain is not deterring the crowd. One report says that a group of "anarchists," (avowedly not peace marchers, possibly the same bunch from eastern Oregon who caused all the trouble in Seattle during the WTO demonstration) have said they are planning to do their thing again, so we'll have to wait and see what happens. But so far, so good.

Other reports I have heard on NPR say that the rallies and demonstrations all over the world are massive and their message is clear. After yesterday's defeat in the UN and today's worldwide peace demonstrations, I don't see how the Bush Administration can help but get the message. But, of course. . . .

Maybe Bush had better get some duct tape to hold his administration together.

Regime change in 2004!

"I have promised to keep
And miles to go before I sleep . . ."

so I'll be back when I can with more up-to-date information. Maybe tomorrow.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: momnopp
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 03:41 PM

Thank you, Peg, for sharing your friend, Rick's, words with us. I hope you have also shared the link to this thread with him.

Peace be with you all,

JudyO

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: leprechaun
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 03:07 PM

Bobert - Are you suggesting it's a bad thing to repress other people's opinions?

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 02:34 PM

Right on, Rick. Well said, my friend. I was hopoing that htis snow storm wouldn't set in and held out until Thursday before reluctantly decided I needed to be here on the Blue Ridge in case the power goes out and have to play Pioneer.

But I'm with you in spirit. I have Pacifca radio on as I write this and they are providing about 20 minutes of live coverage from Amy Goodman every hour. Nothing on Boss Hog's cable TV. Nothing.

The larges world demonstartopn against war in the history of mankind and Boss Hog wants to show Andy Griffith reruns and drum beaters who have 24 hour access to the media. Normal.

Peace, Rick, and others and good on you.

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Peg
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 11:55 AM

A dear old friend of mine from college wrote this and sent it around to friends:

For those of you who don't know by now, the big anti-war rally in NYC is going to be at First Avenue and as close to 49th Street as you can get on Saturday February 15, noon.

These have been horribly oppressive times and I am sure many of you have felt the same sense of powerlessness I have felt in the face of this tidal wave. It is incredibly easy to get overwhelmed by that despair.

I do not think any of us are so naïve as to think that this protest will stop our Fuhrer from going to war. The decision was made a long time ago and we have no say.

But I am still going to the rally.

I am going to remind myself that I am not alone in this.

I am going because there is indeed an axis of evil that needs to be fought- Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Ashcroft, (what, an axis can't be
more than three just because there were only three Axis countries in
WWII and Bush can't count any higher?)

I am going because the Bushyboys need to know that they do not speak for the majority of Americans who did not elect them in the first place. The rest of the world needs to know this, too.

I am going because my friends and relatives have children who deserve
the chance to grow up.

I am going because the Iraqis and Iranians and Koreans and Chinese and
Sudanese and Israelis and Europeans and Palestinians, and so on, also
have children who deserve the chance to grow up.

I am going because I am so infuriated by the fear mongering these
bastards use to hold us hostage and scare us into acceptance.

I am going to protest the secret deportations and the detentions in the concentration camp at Guantanamo.

I am going to the rally to let Bush know I haven't forgotten about the tanked economy, the homeless, the unemployed, the uninsured, the tax cuts for the rich, the stacking of the courts with right-wing religious fanatics, the gutting of abortion rights and the destruction of the environment.

I am going to the rally to speak out against my civil rights being
whittled away.

I am going to speak up for the Iraqis who will die as the 8,000 bombs
Bush wants to unleash in the first two days of the war rain down upon
them.

I am going to the rally because Dubya needs to know that the only way to compensate for having a tiny penis is either to be really good with your tongue or have surgery, not obliterate another country.

I hope that you will be there on Saturday as well. To those of you
across the country and the world, I hope you will be attending the
rallies near you. It is important. It is going to be big.

All my love, and hopes for peace,
Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Noreen
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 08:24 AM

A long report on the gathering crowds in London on the BBC Radio 4 news just now, crowds being split and diverted as there are far more than anticipated.
A figure of 150,000 was mentioned, but difficult to assess until all are gathered together.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:51 AM

Heading off into Brussels city center in about an hour's time. Thankd to Mudcat for enabling me to find out that there is a demo here at all. I would have thought that the Government, having gone out on a limb, would want maximum support in the streets and made sure that the demo was well-publicised.

The Mayor of Brussels made the extraordinary allegation that this is a high-risk demo, which is likely to scare off moderates and give hotheads a licence to think that the police are likely to turn violent anyway so there's no point being well-behaved. Looks like The Chimp isn't the only primate involved in this sorry episode.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 05:41 AM

The usual suspect, France wants to break the travel ban on Mugabe and invite him to Paris.
Belgium gave him the red carpet treatment last year, and allowed his henchman to assault an English protester.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Gareth
Date: 15 Feb 03 - 04:52 AM

Nice to see the Iraqi Parliament applauding the "Peace Marches" - ( Source this mornings 15/02/03 Gaurdian)

I've said it before and I'll say it again - These protests encourage Saddam to continue defiance of the UN and make the prospect of war, and the associated mayhem more likely. - Or put it this way, it encourages the attitudes and actions and inactions on the part of Saddam that will give President Shrub his justification.

WAR IS EVIL - But sometimes it is the lesser of two evils.

BTW the European Union is trying to do something about Mugabe in Zimbawe - Less of course the usual European suspect.

An unrepentent Gareth.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: thosp
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 11:46 PM

i'll be at the demonstration tomorrow in nyc --- i don't
expect to be too cold -- with all that body heat around

peace (Y) thosp

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 11:40 PM

Susan, A-R:

If ya got a sign, poke holes in the upper corners and string it around your neck. That frees up your hands. Take some water, I know you don't thin k you'll need it but you will, no matter hao cold it is. Take a camera.

Two pairs of socks is 4 times better than one. Hmmmm?

Have fun. Make lots of noise for peace. This is gonna be fun!!!!

uI can't get to NY because of bad snow hitting my area (Blue Ridge Mts.) tomorrow and I've got to be home keeping systems working. Generators, etc.

But you tear it up and I'll be tuned to Pacifica radio all day and will be there in spirit....

Good on you and the illions of others who will take to the streetsaround the world tomorrow.

God Bless 'em all.... for they are carrying His message...

Peace

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Susan A-R
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 10:42 PM

I'll be at the rally in Montpelier VT tomorrow afternoon. I'm hoping that the mercury cracks 0, but it's not likely.   Boy Doug R, I wish I could walk two miles here these days. Usually it's been 0 or below, and by the time I make the 1/2 mile walk to work my nose is falling off.

As for why I am marching, well, my buddy Joel who I've known since we used to go fishing when we were five, has been called up, and to me it seems to be mainly about oil, not weapons. If we were serious about weapons, we wouldn't still be sellin' them to the highest bidders all around the world. When will we ever learn?

I was very upset about the twin towers, and am upset when Americans are killed. I just am not entirely sure I value american lives over the lives of other folks in other places, particularly when those lives are taken for fruit, oil, cheap labor or the profit of some weapons manufacturer. So, I'll be out there in my silk long underwear, parka, hat, scarf, mittens, wooly socks, sorrel boots, heavy jeans . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 07:56 PM

February 15, 2003, Reuters:
In the Australian city of Melbourne, 100,000 people demonstrated in a peace movement expected to spread to around 600 towns and cities around the world stretching from the far south to Iceland. (Hurrah!)

Norton1, how about starting a thread specifically for your viewpoint? I'm serious. Those of us on the 'other' side may have difficulty remaining silent or respectful but yours is a valid viewpoint- I, for one, would like to have the process discussed as to how one gets to that point.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 07:51 PM

Well, in Vietnam times maybe it was different over here, but generally GIs were seen as victims of the war, prisoners of the system. "Stop the War - Send the soldiers home" was the feeling. Now the politicians and the generals, that was a different story.

As for tomorrow - the Independent newspaper, which has been rather on the fence about all this, came out today with a great big halfpage map in colour, showing the route and where all the loos are. There's never been that kind of treatment for any march I've ever been in before.

Anyway - good luck everyone, I'm turning in now.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 07:47 PM

Fionn - I can only go by what I see - and in all of the instances I noted above of Americans being killed I did not see a public outcry. With the notable exception of the Twin Towers.

As far as "poor old N1" goes I am neither poor nor old. And your patriarchal sarcasm is not lost on me. Pat me on the head if you want - but I and millions of others have opinions and concerns that need to be heard and addressed also.

I have no beef with those who are demonstrating, going as shields, or anything else that folks do when a crisis is coming. I'm not all excited about this scrap with the middle East. I just view the solution a bit different from you. Doesn't make me bad or good - just makes me who I am. And those who know me historically know that I do not advocate war. It has been a tremendous internal struggle with me as I opposed this action for the longest time. And as I read, watched, and learned I came to believe that it, the war, was more than likely warranted.

Too bad you all don't want to allow for discourse here on that. Kind of odd as on my other forum I am thought of as a Liberal. And I take my lumps there also - not a large as it is the internet and most don't have a clue anyway. And I am sure many here are as passionate as can be. Some I believe are simply there to get laid, push their own agenda, and denigrate those who have different views.

I wasn't pissing on anyones thread. After I had read the entire thread I made a statement that I believe to be true. And it had concerns for both sides. But some took it as other than it was. Too bad - as I've spent my life opposing war. Until now. So take it for what it is. I've always said that I am not a peace at any price person and there have been some urinating contests around that at times. So I'll abstain from babbling now so you folks can get back to congratulating yourselves on whatever it is that you are doing.

No sweat Kat - Bob needed a shot and so did I probably - we'll get over it - no harm in words.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 07:11 PM

Conrad/#1 Peasant, as someone who has, on balance, welcomed your imput here, I've got to say I'm with Larry/InOBU one hundred per cent on this. At least you're worth arguing with, which is more than can be said for one or two other posters in this thread.

Much is made of Saddam gassing "his own people," less of the fact that he gassed Iranians before that. (The UK and US gave him the means to produce his gas, with the intention that he use it on the Iranians. Rumsfeld of course was right there in Baghdad shaking Saddam's hand while some of the Iraq-Iran atrocities were under way.) Nothing at all is said these days about the USA's use of nepalm, or the fact that the British were the first to gas Iraqis, way back in the 1920s. Nor that America's allies Pakistan and India boast WMDs and have tested them in defiance of international treaty.

And there has been little mention of the response by Zanu PF secretary Dydimus Mutasa to the fact that nearly seven million Zimbabweans face starvation: "We would be better off with only six million people who support the liberation struggle. We don't want all these extra people." Such remarks would be treated with alarm if the "never again" response to the holocaust had meant anything. But then as Hitler said in 1931, about Turkey's genocide in WW1: "Who now remembers the annihilation of the Armenians?" So the west huffs and puffs about Iraq, but when it comes to Zimbabwe, which has neither oil nor diamonds, we will do a Rwanda and look the other way.

It would be futile suggesting to Norton1 that we are entitled to expect more from civilised democracies than from a handful of criminal lunatics. After all, in our millions we failed to march in protest against 9-11, thinking it might not be a very smart response. So poor old N1 probably thinks we welcomed it with open arms.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 06:30 PM

Don,
That was the huge mistake we made with the Viet Nam "War". We protested against the soldiers who fought the war. I lost several good friends to death, mental illness and despair in Viet Nam. During "Desert Storm" most of us had the good sense to support our troops while attacking the decision to use them. I respect the right of any citizen to choose to fight for his country. In fact I applaud their decision to defend me and mine. I protest the government's decision to fight a war I consider premature and possibly even unnecessary. I could go ad infinitum but will abstain...

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 06:10 PM

I agree Don. The other thing that gets a bit tiresome, is this idea that there is only one way to support the military, which is to be gung ho for the war.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Don Firth
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 04:55 PM

I heard on the news this morning that there will be counter-demonstrations here and there whose theme is to be "Support our Troops." To these folks, I would say that the best support I could offer our troops is to do everything in my power to stop this illegal war.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 04:27 PM

"Le Deserteur" - it's by Boris Vian. Great song. And here is a link to the text in a post I did the other day.

And there's a link in that post to a good translation and information about the song, which was banned in France when they were having their colonial war in Indo-China.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,alinact
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:32 PM

The first pitch has been thrown; over to you guys.

Allan

Melbourne rallies to the call for peace
February 15 2003
By Andra Jackson




Picture: AAP
Thousands march in Melbourne during yesterday's rally.



More than 100,000 people - believed to be Melbourne's largest peace rally - marched through the city yesterday to protest against a war on Iraq.

Police spokeswoman Senior Constable Julie-Anne Newman said the demonstration was "so big" that it was difficult to estimate the size of the crowd.

But she said it was "in excess of 100,000".

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 12:28 PM

I wrote this for the march... if you know the tune, feel free. I plan on printing pages of it to sing during the vigil part.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 11:24 AM

There has been talk on the media of the "Arab Street." Even though many of these demonstrations are trumped up, they still represent someone's opinion and the demonstrators are heard.

Demonstrations are part of the public discourse of government. If you do not speak you will not be heard.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 11:18 AM

A while back, up above, the question was asked, "Why are you marching?" The answer is that, if we sit at home, we will be heard as accepting whatever Bush and his cronies mandate. To march or not to march is to vote in the public discourse.

Several times, during voter registration drives, I have gotten into discussions of "why register?" The answer, of course, is "to be heard." The reasons are the same here.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: TIA
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 11:01 AM

Damn the risks, and welcome down from the fence - very well spoken HuwG.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: HuwG
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 08:58 AM

I am risking a lot posting to a thread like this. However, it is getting very painful sitting on this fence all the time.

In the past, I have not had too much time for some (not all; I was rather a fan of Michael Foot) peace campaigners; in the British context, I remember some of the voices sneering in 1991 that nobody would support Kuwait if its main export was cabbages, were that same ones who castigated Maggie for spilling so much British and Argentinian blood over some worthless islands full of retarded sheep-farmers. In much the same fashion, there were those who first wailed that NATO was doing nothing about the genocide in Bosnia, and then pilloried NATO for aggression when the bombers and troops went in.

And yes, I have to agree with some peoples' views. Saddam Hussein is a nasty piece of work. However, we knew that some twenty-plus years ago, when he took power, but did nothing; we knew it shortly after that, when he attacked Iran, but supported him, at least as the lesser of two perceived evils; we knew it twelve years ago, when he invaded Kuwait, but left him in power and free to stamp on his internal opponents (though to be fair, much of the Western Allied coalition had to adopt the Arab coalition's goals for the Gulf War).

What has changed since then ?

I do not for a second believe any of the "briefings" or so-called intelligence by British government figures, that Saddam poses any fresh threat, to the West, to Israel or to his Arab neighbours. Many of the demands on the Iraqi government for weapons inspection etc. are framed in terms which boil down to, "When did you stop beating your wife ?"; there is no answer which will not provoke fresh demands or threats.

Threatening Iraq because there has been an unsolicited message from Osama bin Laden urging him to crush US imperialism (while at the same time calling him a godless betrayer of Islam), is like prosecuting me for indecency because my PC receives spam advertisments for Viagra.

So; there has been no major increase in the threat posed by Iraq, or in its internal policies in the last decade, and therefore no obvious causus belli. The conclusion must be that the changes which make war more probable have occurred in Washington and Whitehall (and much of British policy has been to follow where the US leads for many years, regardless of which party has been in power). I wouldn't like to ascribe any obvious motive to George W. or to Tony, but neither do I credit those motives which they have stated in public.

So; I cannot support Tony and his cabinet on this one (with one reservation however; if shooting starts, and British forces personnel are involved, I won't ever advocate any course of action which may endanger them, or criticise their conduct once they have become involved as a result of the government's policy).

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: TIA
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 08:45 AM

Whole family will be on the courthouse steps, Lancaster PA (in the snow?)

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Ringer
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 08:40 AM

Monsieur le président, je vous fais une lettre

I remember something slightly different (and my French is no better than yours, Catarina, I regret). I remember something like

Messieurs, comme on a grande, je vous...

That is, "Gentlemen, so-called 'great' gentlemen, I have written you a letter...", but I've never seen it in print. I think I heard Leon Rosselson sing it in a Peterborough folk-club about 40 years ago. (It's the singer's ID which is doubtful, not the where or when.)

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 08:01 AM

No, I don't support Saddam Hussein. But I don't think bombing the Iraqi people is anything to do with Saddam. I mean, if the American government was going to rid the world of evil, why doesn't it go and bomb the Thai child abuse centres, for instance? Oh, wait, Thailand doesn't have oil.

Not that bombing *anyone* is going to add to the store of good in this world.

There are times when our friends need to tell us we're wrong; the American government should look at the worldwide protests in this light.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 07:23 AM

Actually, Bobert has a point about people who support the war coming into threads and pissing on the parade.

He also has a point about people who support the war, for whatever reasons, being incapable of appreciating what we hope will be 10 million people, around the globe, personally coming out and taking a stand against US/British military aggression, and using militarism as the solution to every problem between nations.

At some point, everyone needs to recognize that there isn't a compromise position, a "let's agree to disagree" about killing people, about unjust wars, and supporting militarism. Bobert is the only one honest enough to admit that, and I find it refreshing.

Bobert, dude, sorry you can't find your way into the millions of us in body tomorrow, but we'll at least know you are there in spirit.

And Norton1, I do hope your family is safe. I hope my family and friends already in the Gulf, or on their way, will be safe. And I hope the anti-war activists acting as human shields for the Iraqis will be safe. And I hope the Iraqis will be safe from our children, too. I pray that the pressure of these growing protests--and they are now growing by the hundreds of thousands with each organized protest--in conjunction with the position of many of the world's governments, and the UN, can either successfully avert this war through our opposition to this US administration, or manage to isolate this administration to the point where the American people will throw the bums out on their ears in November 2004 so we can get down to the work of TRULY healing our nation from the traumas caused by 9/11. Like throwing out the US Patriot Act as unconstitutional, and creating some safeguards to our civil liberties that will not allow despots like Bush/Cheney to get away with gutting our constitution in the interest of war in perpetuity, no matter who our enemies are, or how many times they strike.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Catarina
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 07:02 AM

Hey guys: No one is supporting Sadam in this thread. Just remember:
1. It's easy to start a war but it's very difficult to put an end to it;
2. The ones who get killed in a war are NOT the ones who started it;
3. There is no such thing as a "preventive war". What's a war meant to prevent, anyway?
4. Do you a know a french poem called "Le Déserteur"? Do read it. It goes like this:

Monsieur le président, je vous fais une lettre
Que vous lirez, peut-être,
Si vous avez le temps.
Je viens de recevoir mes papiers militaires,
Pour partir à la guerre
Avant mercredi soir.

Monsieur le président, je ne veux pas la faire,
Je ne suis pas sur terre
Pour tuer les pauvres gents.
C'est pas pour vous facher, il faut que je vous dise,
Ma décision est prise,
Je m'en vais déserter.

Depuis que je suis né, j'ai vu mourir mon père,
J'ai vu partir mes frères
Et pleurer ses enfants.
Ma mère a tant souffert, qu'elle est dedans sa tombe,
Et se moque des bombes
Et se moque des vers.

Quand j'étais prisonier, on m'a volé ma femme,
On m'a volé mon âme
Et tout mon cher passé.
Demain, de bonmatin, je fermerais ma porte
Au nez de anées mortes.
J'irais sur le chemins.

Je mendierais ma vie sur les routes de France,
De Bretagne en Provence,
Et je dirais au gents:
Refusez d'óbeir, refusez de la faire,
N'allez pas à la guerre!
Refusez de partir.

S'il faut donner son sang, allez, donnez le votre,
Vous êtes un bon apôtre,
Monsieur lé président.
Si vous me poursuivez, prévenz vos gendarmmes
Que je n'aurai pas d'armes
Et qu'ils pouront tirer.

My french spelling may not be perfect, mind you! I believe the poem is by Jacques Prévert but I'm not sure about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: Gareth
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 06:55 AM

The thread asked a question Bobert - I answered it.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 06:20 AM

Inevitably we drift treads here all the time, and that includes me. and there aren't clear divisions. I think it's fair enough thta a topic should widen out to cover new aspects sometimes, rather tnan a fresh thread being started. But when there is already an active thread about one particular aspect of a live issue, it seems to me that it is better to put those posts in that thread, because it makes for clearer arguments and means they contribute to that more effectively.

We've got a thread here about whether there will be a war, and a thread about whether there should be a war, and they are both still fairly active. I think that is really where the arguments about the rights and wrongs of this planned war really belong, rather than in a thread about who is going on a demonstration tomorrow. And that in itself is an iteresting thing, over above the issues involved, because of the way it's happening on the same day in all our countries, and just about all the others as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 02:26 AM

Gentlemen, stop getting personal with each other. Stick to the issues.

Gabriel and I will be out there at the UN.

We will be there because the guy in the White House seems to believe that oil is more important that blood and, if the blood shed is not his own, then it does not matter, no matter how many nice words he spreads over the field.

We will be there because there are times that it is necessary to stand up and say "There is no hurry to go to war." A bullet, once fired cannot be recalled.

We will be there because our bellicose leaders seem to believe that the louder they shout, the more the world will believe them and that the world will allow them to stampede it into a frenzy.

We will be there as a statement that a tantrum should be recognized as a tantrum. "I want it" is not enough reason to act.

We will be there because it has to be made clear that this is not being done in our names.

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: DougR
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 01:47 AM

"Give peace a chance." Saddam has had twelve years to comply ...oh heck. What's the use. No point in pointing out the obvious. March away I say.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Who's marching on February 15th?
From: katlaughing
Date: 14 Feb 03 - 01:11 AM

I said Bush "has made the worst of it possible" and it doesn't read the way I meant. What I meant was that, imo, he has handled the entire situation in the worst possible way.

Melani, I read it and I share your concerns! Thanks.

kat