BS: In God We Trust

Subject: BS: In God We Trust
From: BlueJay
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 05:27 AM

So you think our elected officials are primarily concerned with national defence? Wrong. Here in Conservative Colorado, a bill passed through the state House of "representatives" requiring the posting of plaques bearing the inscription, "In God We Trust", in all school classrooms and public buildings. It now moves to the state Senate, where hopefully, cooler heads will prevail.
Unknbeknownst to me, "In God We Trust" has apparantly been the national"motto of the U.S." since sometime in the 1950's, (the McCarthy years).
These people are very clever. They realize that with Colorado's dismal economy, there's no way to make the taxpayers support such folly, (at least for now). So a part of the bill exempts state funding. Production of the plaques will be on a donation basis.

So we in Colorado are to have a law requiring "In God We Trust" plaaques REQUIRED in all classrooms and public buildings, (whatever that means), aat no taxpayer expense. Hmmmm. I wonder where all those plaques are going to come from? The Democratic party, maybey?

I've heard the arguments and they don't wash. Yeah, I spend dollar bills that say "In God We Trust". It's on the dimes and quarters as well. But nobody really has to read their currency. I don't really care. Classrooms are a much different matter. Everhear of "brainwashing"? This is just another attempt by the right-wing to gain control of our kids before they learn better. Here in Colorado, we narrrowly avoided the mandated posting of the 10 Commandments last year, because we then had a Democratically controlled state Senate.

So you conservatives, like DougR, how does all this jibe with your talk of "less government intrusion", and "individual freedom"? Looks to me like the United States is very near a Police State. Maybe not for the affluent, but even the affluent will have to eventually have to admit that they are the "dictators" of this country.
Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: gnu
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 06:24 AM

In God we trust. All others pay cash.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 06:38 AM

BlueJay, that really sucks! Colorado used to be so much more liberal when I was growing up; or maybe that is the wrong word. My grandma was GOP, BUT she was the old-fashioned kind who truly believed in less government and would be appalled at what it stands for now.

I'll have to write to our senator. Thanks for posting this.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 09:29 AM

Pathetic... Grown men in pursuit of such glib frippery! They should be ashamed!! I'd prefer plaques that say "You're it!" or even "Get Osama!"


A

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 10:38 AM

We've decided we will fund a plethora of counter-plaques: In Allah we trust; In the Goddess we Trust; In Buddha we trust, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 10:42 AM

I'll vote for "In Critical Analytical Skills We Trust" -- it would do much more good in the long run. Shorter form " In Us We Trust". Put it on little stickers to be stuck on well-done homework papers and such!

A

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: JennyO
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 10:48 AM

I'd go for one that says "To thine own self be true".

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 10:48 AM

I just wish that these so-called Christain politicans would spend more time talking and listening to God than trying to ram God down everyone's throats.

"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrits! For ye are like unto white sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead man's bones, and of all uncleaness. Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniqutiy" (Mattew 24: 27-28)

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 10:51 AM

Aw, Bobert, yer my kinda Xian!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 10:55 AM

Trust who or what ya know, the rest, phhizzzzz...

Do the Politicians really believe that putting up notices about what they think - what a Divine joke ....- is G_d? while they allow our Planet to be destroyed by Corporepublicon greed, our atomosphere gobbled up and destroyed by SUVs @ 620 Cubic Yards every half hour, while the rest of the world plunges towards the same fate such that in few years YOU will be buying AIR at MallWart.

The mountains chewed up for a few bars of shiny metal, the rivers filled with poisonous Chlorine, the entire planet and its gaseous envelope - extending out into space BTW - being gradually poisoned with radio-active SYNTHETIC Iodine particles which are so unnatural that it will take nearly 20 thousand years for them to naturalise... and no a word about it!- but you can read about the rise in cancer. It is not that we have to be rid of Nukes but we need to be rid of all of it.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:05 AM

Sorefingers, I seriously think you need to take a walk. Somewhere pretty.

A

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:06 AM

sure would be funny if they hire some dyslexic plaque maker.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: JennyO
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:19 AM

In Dog We Trust

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:23 AM

*grin*

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:24 AM

If your senators don't do anything about it, ask the teachers not to put up the plaques. If challenged, they can take it to court; if not, your immediate problems are over. A court really should overturn the law, and if they don't you've got very serious problems.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:24 AM

Can't help but wonder how well this is going to go over in Boulder......

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Fran
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:36 AM

This reminds me of the Martyn Joseph song "The Great American Novel"
in which the lyrics read "Your money says in God we trust but its against the law to go and pray in schools"

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:50 AM

Since the production of the plaques will be on a donation basis, why don't you take up a fund to have them produced yourself. Then you could have them say:

"In God, G*d, Goddess, All That Is, Nothing, The Creator, Krishna, (fill in the blank) We Trust"

I bet it would be a blast taking those around and hanging them up in the government buildings.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:51 AM

(Oops! I guess I shouldn't have said "blast". I meant a "lot of fun".)

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 11:59 AM

I thought it was "In Greed We Trust" -- that just seems to be so institutionalized.

Talk about misinterpretation. The faith of the Founding Fathers was deist, not theist. The Declaration of Independence spoke of "the Laws of Nature" and "Nature's God."

Thomas Jefferson worte, "I have examined all the known superstitions of the Word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology."

Of course, he also said, "I regret for my country when I reflect that God is just."

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 12:06 PM

"Trust No One Over Thirty"


gnu, I think I love you!

Reminds me of an old barn I passed years ago. Someone had graffitied "Jesus Saves" in huge red letters of dripping paint. Underneath, was carefully printed in black "green stamps".

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 12:20 PM

I'm curious how this came about and what is their point for it? It's hard for me to believe this is coming out of Colorado. Who are these people that come up with this stuff? What is scary is these people are voted in by the majority of the people.
I think that was a very good point Fran about no prayer in schools, yet hang that motto out there.
Sorefingers I agree with you, These people sit around and pass shit like this, waste time even discussing this when there are so many things more important they should be talking about and providing some action.

Maybe they think things are so far out of hand, that they think God is the only one that can help us now? Now that is a scary thought!
Peace. Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 12:28 PM

m I the only one who grits her teeth at the sight of "In God We Trust" on every coin and bill I handle? Which god? Don't they realize that our enemies trust in god too? And he never declares which side he is on! Hedging his bets, maybe?

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 12:37 PM

I ignore it, SINSULL, just like commercials and the sports page. It's irritating, but there's nothing I can do about it, and it's not really hurting me, so there's nothing to be gained by paying it attention.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 12:45 PM

I use a cash card whenever possible enabling the godless future, feared by the more fanatical groups, of a cashless society in which we are all embedded with micro-chips and Big Brother, not god, watches over us.
Apologies - I have a bitch of a headaches this morning. Read my posts indulgently.
Mary

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 12:58 PM

Like dogs we tryst.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: GUEST,The Dreaded Guest
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 01:24 PM

The words 'In God we Trust' don't offend me, even though I'm not religious. America's founding documents are based on the premise that our RIGHTS are ours at birth by the grace of God, and no human or govt can take them away.

In order to get rid of our Constitution, the destroyers of America will have to convince Americans the 'God' portions of our founding documents are no longer valid. Once that is done, our rights will then be subject to HUMAN interpretation only, and then they will be taken away altogether.

My dog displays more ability for analytical thought than I've seen on this thread. Your rote regurgitations of 'liberal' stances is pathetic. Even if you don't pray, you should at least be thankful daily that the Founding Fathers sprinkled all our foundation documents with references to 'God'. Otherwise you'd have your Stalinist Utopia right here, right now.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 01:36 PM

Your slippery slope argument won't wash, DG. It's all human interpretation anyway. They never made the film where Charlton Heston came down from Mount Rushmore with the Constitution carved into the living rock by the "Finger of GAAAAHD".

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 02:00 PM

Ho-hum, that spew won't float 'round here, no more...

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 02:04 PM

DG --

You and your dog should have a long talk off-line. Mebbe a few years. I think he knows something you don't.

A

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: GUEST,The Dreaded Guest
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 02:16 PM

The truth hurts, doesn't it, folks? I have nothing to add. My post above says it all. I just want to make an entry to keep this at the top of the list for a couple of minutes. lol Rub your faces in it. You know I'm right on this. If Ted Kennedy and GWBush weren't restrained by 'God' in the Constitution, they'd have presented us with a new Communist/Fascist Constitution a year ago. We'd all be workin' for the govt for thirty cents an hour right now. lol

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 02:22 PM

I fail to see where believe in God has guaranteed fair treatment and personal freedom down through history, DG. You're being facetious. Have a nice day (seriously). I'm gonna go play some guitar now.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Frankham
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 02:25 PM

Our ubiquitous dreaded guest says:


"In order to get rid of our Constitution, the destroyers of America will have to convince Americans the 'God' portions of our founding documents are no longer valid. Once that is done, our rights will then be subject to HUMAN interpretation only, and then they will be taken away altogether."

I wonder if he means by the destroyers of America, those residing now in the White House and Congress? Probably not. :) But our rights are now subject to human interpretation as they've always been. They are presently being taken away by the current administration. I don't really have a problem with people believing in God provided there are some provisions made to accomodate atheists and agnostics which are equally venerable belief systems. Since the focus in the days of the signing of the Constitution were concerned with the religious rights of those being persecuted in other countries and finding asylum in America, the "God" portions were probably relevant to the times. But the strict constructionists of the Constitution who would like it applied only in the context of the 1700's undervalue it's utility as being a flexible document for different generations.

But the issue remains. Whose God? What religion?
Who has the right to dictate their "Christianity"? Nowadays, I have heard so-called Christians separate Allah and God as if they have some divine authority invested in them by the "Almighty". I wonder what kind of "God" they trust in?

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 02:43 PM

Oops. My hubby (who must be operating with more brain cells than me today) has pointed out that I missed a few posts early on in this thread, and that my post wasn't as original as I thought. Ah, well. I enjoyed it while it lasted.

(I'd still love to see someone do that.)

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Amos
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 04:03 PM

Carol,

Take two aspirin and play the accordion until morning. It's nothin' serious! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: TIA
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 04:10 PM

In Dreaded Guest We Trust

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: TIA
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 04:14 PM

In God Wet Rust

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 05:00 PM

"the destroyers of America " - I get the inpression they would also claim to be very strong on trusting God. Especially the ones on September 11th.

It always seems to me that that motto really imnplies "God can rely on us".

"Lord have mercy" might be a better motto for a country.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: GUEST,just some thoughts...
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 06:14 PM

I think Bobert is right on... and so are many of you; I won't judge. i just wanted to say that while I am a Christian, I have been very badly hurt by many so-called "brethren" in the faith who were convinced that they had the corner on God's revelation to people. I believe what the Christian Scriptures say about Jesus, and I believe His way is the path for me. I do not get into the fight over whether or not "all religions are equal"... I just think that if everyone cared for the poor and sick, treated one another justly in business dealings, loved people in spite of their faults, and shared what they have instead of defining people by membership in a "club" like a totalitarian denomination (where dissent means automatic "hell"), I think that people would be a lot closer to what we are all meant to be.

As Salaam Alaikum
Shalom Aleichem
God Bless You
Have a nice day
Have a Coke and a smile
Shut Up and play yer guitar
War Is Over (If You want It) Love John and Yoko

(if I missed any, let me know... I love people without qualifications because God loves me the same way... if I insist that everyone meet my standards of "right and good" then I give God the right to see if I measure up to His... and I don't.)

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 06:17 PM

Reminds me of the Nazi belt buckle: "Gott Mit Uns".

Adding this phrase was a spinoff of the McCarthy witch hunt hysteria and has been an embarrassment ever since. Its time it was removed. The country got along very well without it from 1783 to 1953.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 06:28 PM

"Towering Dust" is an anagram of the motto... Shades of September 11. That kind of thing raises the hairs on your neck.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Feb 03 - 06:52 PM

GUEST, just some thoughts:

Yeah, I also have had problems with the "brethren". Wonder why so many Christians don't get to the Gospels? Yeah, they quote Old Testament as if that's the only foundation of Christianity! Makes it easier to do a bunch of stupid stuff while still holding onto that label.

Not to belabor the point but in Mark Jesus warned to "take heed lest any man deceive you" (Mark 14:5).

And if you'll allow me just one more. Thinking of those who are beating the drums in Luke Jesus says, "Woe unto you, also, lawyers! for ye lade men with burden grevious to be borne and ye yourselves touch not the burden with ont of your fingers". (Luke 12:26) Hmmmmm? Sounds like that bunch in Washington who want to send the working classes kids to kill and be kill and then shift the financial burden onto the working class.

Yeah, we know which *god* they trust! The one spelled money and greed.

But, having the utmost trust in God, they'll pay with their souls...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: TIA
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:05 AM

In God We Strut

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: TIA
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:19 AM

Indigo Wetter Suet

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:21 AM

Just a note, it is much less objectionable, imo, to those of us who are not Christian, if when a Christian feels the need to say "God bless you," they would substitute it with "May your god bless you."

thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:41 AM

Don't hold your breath for that one, kat.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 01:44 AM

I don't, Cluin, but if we don't voice the option how are they to know, those of them who are not the strident lot?

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: BlueJay
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 04:35 AM

Amos has the best counter-plaque, so far IMO. "In Critical Analytical Sills We Trust". I think I'll make one, and take it to my daughters teachers. Probably will send the Bible-beaters off the deep end.

Reviewing the thread, I notice that nobody of a conservative mind has answered my original question: How does this attempt to infuse religious dogma into the classroom relate to the alleged conservative positions of less government, local control, and individual freedom?

I suspect the conservatives don't really have an answer for this, because while the above positions are great sound bites, the real conservative agenda is to continue making The United States "the land of the multi-billionaires and the home of the slaves".

I would really appreciate a conservative view on this. "The Dreaded Guest" is about the only dissenting voice so far, but i don't think he's conservative. I think he's probably had too much coffee or something. Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 07:58 AM

kat, the problem with your suggestion is, that if one believes that there is only one God, then saying "may your god bless you" is, at best, as meaningless as "have a nice day". At worst, it actually contains, consciously or not, an implication that you will not be blessed, or even worse, that you will be unblessed.

I must admit, I see an attraction in using the phrase to Christians who have a deeply limited idea of God as a judgemental and punishing person, especially as, without knowing what I meant, they would find it offensive. It is an attraction I do not respond to. (I do allow myself to enjoy saying "God bless you" to priestly persons of denominations who believe that blessing is only possible if you are a priest, and male, but that is for a different reason.)

Someone who truly wants to invoke the divine in blessing, and believes in one god only, cannot do what you ask, though. It is not possible. Surely, if blessing is intended, then blessing can be received. (If what is intended is mere platitude, or worse, a religious point scoring, then your reaction is quite proper. No blessing intended, none received, and feeling put out. Do you tell them?)

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 08:10 AM

"May your God" rather suggests that, for example Muslims, Jews and so forth worship a different God.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Penny S.
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 08:16 AM

Which, I believe, they don't.

One is one and all alone, and ever more shall be so.

Song link.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Neighmond
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 11:43 AM

God is my father, and Jesus my savior.

That being said, I think the powers that be (so called) ought to read The Revelation of Saint John the Devine(Last book in the new testiment). Therein, they are told to worship at home and not make a Public issue of it.

If I want to testify to God's glory, I can find as many revivals and church services as I wish in no time. That is because there are many, many Churches who are in the business of salvation, and the related arts.
Our government is in the business of running a country, and must never handle matters ecclesiastical, it is illegal for them to do so.
As such, the very act of "my" government (I pay their saleries, along with all of my fellow citizens-so we own them) imposing an unfunded mandate reguarding something clearly out of their line of work is an insult to me and all of my brethren. I, for one, refuse to have my name associated with those who would legislate the use of my God's name as though it were their right to do so.

Furthermore, by illegally ordering the placement of God's name in schools and public places, they smear God's good name, by making some folks believe that all Christians are like the minority who force their will upon others, without reguard to the teachings of God and all of his prophets. A true Cristian never forces his Christian will upon others, but rather sets an example for others to willingly follow, should they wish, for all salvation (of any faith) derives from grace and nothing else.

The placement of God's name in these places may also unfairly prompt people of other beliefs to do things (civil disobedience things, standing up for their beliefs, as is perfectly right) contrary to their beliefs, and thereby jepordize their own being. It could happen.

I am 100% with Bobart, Matthew 24 27-8 is also very fitting-I wish I had the sence to have found that one.

Here are two more appropriate mottos:

Do as you will, harming no other

Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you.

Sorry for the ramble. This has got me all in a rave.
Chaz

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 11:48 AM

It is possible, as has been suggetsed by Penny et al, that while there are many paths up the mountain, the view from the top is the same.

But when you see how complex some folks make the scrabbling around down at the bottom among the brush, it seems equally possible that not only is it more than one mountain, the mountain climbers are speaking from widely separate planets altogether!


A

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 11:59 AM

if someone, of whatever religion/denomination truly believes that their wishes,prayers,blessings etc., can intercede with some higher power in MY behalf, they are free to try....privately, please! If it is going to do any good, it will work without it being said 'at' me, I'd think.

It makes me uncomfortable to be offered 'blessings' by someone who has no idea what my beliefs are, and even more uncomfortable if they are aware that I am not a Christian. Those who toss 'blessings' about to all and sundry every day seem to me to be merely repeating platitudes with little content.

I often have need to say consoling things or offer wishes for happiness to various friends and acquaintences, and I have learned many ways to assure them that I care and am concerned about them. Just a simple note that says "My thoughts are with you" or "I will be here if you need me." feels deeper to me than offering the ambiguous solace of a deity that may, or may not be paying attention.

If someone's intercession for me by prayer or blessing actually does ME some good, *smile*...well, fine...that's nice. I'll never know, but those who pray for me will feel better. I have always been fascinated by the saying "God helps them who help themselves"...one of the few religious sentiments that I like, as it can be taken two ways...straight, or tongue-in-cheek.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 12:02 PM

But in the case of Chritians, Jews and Muslims, all three would say that they worship "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph" - three branches of the religion. A severe case of sibling rivalry.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Cluin
Date: 23 Feb 03 - 02:27 PM

Oh come on, folks! It's just a more or less generic blessing and indication of goodwill and more of a habit. I doubt very much if everybody who says "God Bless You" means it as an insult to everyone who doesn't believe as they do.

I'm a general heathen who thinks most "Pagans" are way too preachy for my tastes anyway... damn near as bad as a lot of born-again Christians in their way.

And for the record, if you want to get pedantic about it, the whole tradition comes from an old superstition that your soul was in particular jeopardy of being stolen or lost during the instant of a sneeze. Ectoplasmic snot? Very Christian, non?

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 09:04 AM

People more typically say "Bless You" anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 09:10 AM

Dave Allen, the Irish comedien always finished his tv shows with "Goodnight, and may your god go with you". Strictly non-denominational, and encompassing a large percentage of people, even if their particular god happens to be a tree.
Unlike some of his jokes, I doubt that his parting line could have offended many

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Gervase
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 09:24 AM

I worry when anyone quotes from any 'sacred text' to back their argument - be it the Bible, Qu'ran, Torah or the Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy. To seek some sort of divine endorsement for one's actions is simply a cop-out.
Bush, Rumsfeld & Wolfovitz seem to be making far too much of this "God" malarkey in their efforts to justify the overthrow of a secular state - is it any wonder that many Moslems see them as latter-day crusaders?
A shame, really, that the fundamentalist administration doesn't hark back to the beliefs of Tom Paine - "My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." That would look far better on a plaque.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 02:10 PM

So you just quoted from another sacred text to back your own argument...

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: jeffp
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 03:31 PM

You can't blame the McCarthyites entirely for "In God We Trust." The motto was coined by Salmon P. Chase in 1863 for use on coins, and was approved by the Congress for that purpose in 1864. It was first used on the 1864 two-cent piece. It has appeared on all coins minted in the U.S. since 1938 (it took a brief hiatus from a couple of denominations). It DID become the NATIONAL MOTTO

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: jeffp
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 03:33 PM

(Continued from above)
of the U.S. in 1956 and has appeared on all paper currency since October 1, 1957.

source: U.S. Department of the Treasury

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: DougR
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 04:03 PM

Big deal.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Joe Offer
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 04:50 PM

I think that if somebody takes offense at my saying "Merry Christmas" or "God Bless You," that's their tough luck. I was wishing them well, not proselytizing. However, I'm more likely to say "Gesundheit," which is probably offensive to some son-of-a-bitch or another. My point, though, is that my meaning is altruistic, not religious.

Using "In God We Trust" or "One Nation Under God" as national slogans is another thing. Seems to me that the God referred to in this situation is one that is utterly pro-American and pro-war, and probably an Anglo-Saxon born-again fundamentalist Republican. I'm a church-going, patriotic, pacifist Catholic, and that's not the kind of God I subscribe to. I'd just as soon see God dropped from the Pledge and the dollar.

But if you don't like what I say when you sneeze, well, for God's sake, stop sneezing on me!
Or at least, use a handkerchief, willya?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: GUEST,just a few thoughts (again...)
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 05:47 PM

To me, saying "God bless you" is a way of saying "peace" or "be well"... My definitions of God and my relationship with Him are MINE... i do not pretend to force on anyone what God never forced on me... When I say God bless you, a person with different religious beliefs may take my statement to mean any God they see it fit to mean... I'd rather SEE someone's faith than hear about it, and in that way, our gov't has failed to show me much except a love for "gods" like war, racism, money, corruption etc.

Peace on you,


That guy again

P.S. any Christian musicians in NJ who want to help me with a demo that a label has requested or might be interested in joining a gospel rock band, email me...

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: GUEST,Just some thoughts AGAIN...
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 05:57 PM

SORRY... That email is [e-mail]


Ignore the previous email address.


Peace on you,

Him again

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: TIA
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 06:01 PM

In A Gadda Da Vida

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: GUEST,An Pluiéir Ceolmhar sa bhaile
Date: 24 Feb 03 - 07:02 PM

Dyslexia re-run:In God we strut (in David Trimble-style, coming down the road from Drumcree Church).

There are efforts afoot to insert a reference to God in the Constitutional-type thingy currently being drawn up for the EU, but it'll hardly fly.

All these ranting American bible-thumpers are made of the same cloth as Ben Ladin and Sharon's little friends. Some of them have even crossed the Atlantic to stir things up here pre-emptively. Put them all in a box and float it out to sea.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Gervase
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 02:44 AM

Sacred text Kevin? To some, perhaps, Paine's works would be a sacred canon. My own view, when some aghast and offended aunt asks: "Is nothing sacred?" is to think: "Well, no, nothing is sacred. It's all the product of the human mind, be it the Sermon on the Mount, the Rights of Man, Das Kapital or the loopier bits of Leviticus
Nevertheless, there's a difference between admiring something and wishing to adopt it as a maxim and using it to abrogate my own free will or to justify the denigration of others!
Some texts express ideas that I don't have the wit or style to express myself, and I'm happy as Larry to plagiarise those - but I wouldn't feel comfortable using them as a moral crutch.
So, let others trust in god - personally I put about as much trust in the idea as I do in the tooth fairy and Father Christmas!

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: BlueJay
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 06:33 AM

That's it, DougR, "Big Deal"? As one of the Mudcat's more obvious conservatives, I had been hoping you might provide a more reasoned explanation of why mandating the posting of "In God We Trust" in our schools will actually aid our children's reading and math skills, andd is a reasonable conservative position.

"Big Deal" says it all for me. It typifies the attitude of the Republican party toward anyone but the elite. This has been Shrub Bush's position, (who should be jailed as a traitor), on virtually all international issues, from Kyoto to war crimes. "Big Deal, go fuck yourself."

The Republican Party has been hijacked by the far right, and the folks of true, and admirable conservative views don't even recognize that the U.S. is moving more and more towards a Nazi-like regime.

I hope it won't take having your grandchild placed on a "terrorist list" for reading "Leaves of Grass", before you conservatives realize Bush's agenda is not conservative at all. Bush's policy is unabashed class warfare. Pretty soon they'll be coming to inspect your books.

The impending Iraq war is not about oil. It's about subduing the American People. Thanks, BlueJay

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 08:38 AM

"Big Deal".

There's those critical analytical skills work. Pithy and to the point as per usual.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Bugsy
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:05 AM

My good friend and performance poet Peter Capp, informs me that you guys in the US got it all wrong. It is in fact a misprint and should be the name of the almost most famous man in history, "Ingi D Wetrust"


Cheers


Bugsy

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Bugsy
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:08 AM

sorry, that should have read "Ingo D Wetrust"


Cheers


Bugsy

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:16 AM

Maybe the initiative is intended to promote allegiance to the Dollar by means of a form of subliminal advertising.

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:33 AM

When I was in high school, oh, those long years ago, there was a church just across the street from the H.S. with a large neon sign on top that said "Jesus Saves". It was on a timer, to turn off in the middle of the night.

As we irreverently said, "Jesus Saves till midnight; after that, you're on your own!"

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: DougR
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:50 PM

Bluejay: Those of you who object to this can exercise your priviledge at the polls to throw the "rascals" out when the next election rolls around. If a sufficient number of voters shares your views, it can happen. And the law can be repealed if a sufficient number of legislators which to do so. There is a possibility, of course, that a majority of the voters in Colorado do not share your view, but either way the issue would be settled.

I can understand why you are upset. Things aren't going your way. Well, do something about it! March! Carry signs that read, "We do not trust God! (or something like that), Get petitions going! Griping about it will change nothing.

Is that pithy enough for you Greg?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 04:16 PM

I believe the question was 'So you conservatives, like DougR, how does all this jibe with your talk of "less government intrusion", and "individual freedom"?' not 'What can we do to get rid of the signs?'

You've changed the subject. We know about voting; we don't know what you think about this form of government intrusion.

Clint Keller

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 04:49 PM

Clint:

Don't confuse poor Dougie with tough questions. He's having a hard enough time just learning the new "liberal" Republican fight songs.

Hey, if the Repubs wanted to outlaw white shirts, he'd be for it. Might take him a few days to getn the yrics and melody down but come performance time, you can bet he wouldn't miss a single note.

Awww, jus' messin' with ya', Big Guy. Ahhhh, did ya hear that Repubs want to out law white shirts? Yep, just read it somewhere....

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 04:57 PM

PennyS, I understand what you mean, but some of those people do think that they worship the ONLY god there is and everyone else's are false. Like BillD, I don't want to hear it.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 25 Feb 03 - 05:22 PM

Yeah I know, Bobert, It's just that I'm old & cranky and that DougR post struck a nerve.

I get real tired of people -- usually politicians -- answering some other question than the one they were asked. If you didn't know better you'd think they were being evasive. Had to take it out on DougR.

If I'm all rested up I can see it's funny, but I get tired sometimes and lose my sense of humor.

Clint Keller

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: DougR
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:23 AM

Well, Clint, I'm sorry I didn't tickle your funnybone. If you want to know what I personally think about the issue, I already posted my opinion. Big deal! Laws are introduced in legislatures all the time and not everyone agrees with them. One was introduced recently here in Arizona that I consider particularly stupid: a law that would allow individuals with a permit to carry a concealed weapon into bars or restaurants. I doubt the bill will go anywhere but if it does, I'm not going to take up a crusade against it.

My point in my previous post was merely intended to remind BlueJay that if he/she feels as strongly about the issue as he/she apparantly does, he has recourse. He is obviously an activist and knows that the law could be challenged in court, or provided he/she could get enough signatures on a petition refer the question to the voters.

What is the real point in posting such a complaint anyway? All one is going to get in reply is from folks who: (1) think it's a good idea, or (2) think it's a lousy idea or (3) don't give a damn. Geeze!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: *daylia*
Date: 26 Feb 03 - 10:57 AM

Here's some alternatives to "In God We Trust" (tongue planted firmly in cheek).

I believe this one deserves special mention:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Political Correctness Movement, and to the Liberals for which it stands, One nation, under Atheism, Divisible, with Tyranny and Injustice for all".

Y'know, I'm really GLAD my ancestors moved north of the border long ago! Best wishes (not to be confused with them darned 'blessings') to all.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: TIA
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 11:29 AM

DougR:

Separation of church and state has nothing to do with voting. It's a Constitutional issue...just like free speech, free assembly, universal suffrage, civil rights, etc. If the majority of people in this country would (hypothetically) vote to take away a woman's right to vote, they can't, because it's gauranteed by the Constitution and therefore not up for a vote.

We vote for our representatives, but not for our rights. What this boils down to is how un-elected judges interpret our constitutional rights. But wait, judges are appointed by our elected representatives who are increasingly using issues such as this to screen judicial candidates....

See, If I keep rambling long enough, I guess I end up agreeing with you to some degree!

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: GUEST,Dylan
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 12:28 PM

I'm with the dyslexics on this one
GOT WED IN RUST

Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: DougR
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 01:15 PM

Whoa, TIA, don't go overboard! :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust
From: TIA
Date: 27 Feb 03 - 02:38 PM

Don't worry, I go in search of a thread where we can spat...BEWARE!