BS: Let me tell you about Andy

Subject: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 08:53 AM

I find it remarkablly odd that my old friend Andy would be in the place of mind and being he is today.

He and I are both in our veryearlt 50's and we lived the sixties and seventies and survived both intact. We have families and friends altho' time has split us up by years and miles and we seldom ever talk anymore.

During the Viet Nam war there was no stronger advocate for peace than Andy. He carried the signs, became a CO and protested along with the rest of us. He had no strong religious leanings and attended church even less than I did.

Now I learned from mutual friends that Andy has become a devout born again Christian, polically very conservative and is in full support of the war with Iraq. ( I support the possibility of a war as well but the buzz word is possibility.)

It wonders me that someone who had no religious affiliation could be on the front lines of the peace movement as one of the many unknown but serving people and now testifies to his love of the Prince of Peace and yet is willing to sacrifice for a dubious war.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: smallpiper
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 08:59 AM

But isn't true Christianity and War two mutually exclusive things? This is what I do not like about modern (and by modern I mean from 2nd century onwards!) Christianity - the hypocrasy. That is what turned me against the church (once I was old enough to escape tribal catholicism that is)

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 09:04 AM

Depends which part of the book you draw your Xianity from, I guess.   I think "true Christianity" and orgainzed religion are mutually exclusive sets by their nature.

My opinion? Andy cured a lot of confusion and pain by falling in to a religion which allowed him to allocate responsibility elsewhere. Problem with that solution is it pulls you out from under yourself.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: jimmyt
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:49 AM

I think you also have to consider the possibility that his opinion now is based on something altogether unrelated to his religious conviction, but perhaps is related to his study of the entire issue from a number of prospectives and given all the options, supports the possibility that this may be the best option.

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 10:54 AM

Don, you say your friend is now a devout, born again Christian. Maybe he's one of the Christians who believe that war with Iraq and the rest of Bush's plan for the middle east will bring about the second coming of Christ. There is a large contingent of born again Christians who believe that stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Mark Clark
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:10 PM

I can really resonate with smallpiper and Amos. Organized belief systems, like all organized systems, tend to fall victim to entropy. When adherents to any belief system lose the clarity of the original, central idea of their chosen belief system, they tend to distort the system into a simple but rigid set of absolutes that becomes the basis for some type of fundamentalism.

Many sorts of “fundamentalism” seem to be attracting large numbers of followers these days. But in every case, the fundamentalists who claim unbending devotion to their chosen faith—Islam, Christianity, Hinduism, Judaism, Communism, Capitalism, Nationalism, Patriotism, Militarism—have, in fact, perverted the central idea that made their chosen “faith” attractive and useful in the first place.

Fundamentalism of any sort ceases to be a supportive system that helps to guide our personal thoughts and actions, fundamentalism is a controlling system that helps us dominate, directly or passivly, those who do not share our point of view.

I'm sorry, Don, that your friend, Andy, has fallen victim to fundamentalism. There may be sound and rational reasons to support war but I don't think God's Will is among them.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:21 PM

Mark:

Coherent and clear and rational -- AND you play music? Let's get together some time, Doc!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:26 PM

On the other hand Don....he just may be OLDER.

Thirty five years ago I had a friend (without the changes he's gone through, I could easily use his name.) who LED marches, perhaps built "devices" (he knew the Weathermen) and was Toronto's number one activist.

I didn't see him for many years and ran into him about three years ago. He's a teacher, getting ready for retirement, he reconciled having an SUV (for the kids natch)....he's still an activist (sort of) 'cause he's anti-fur, and probably eats a lot of vegetables, and doesn't smoke. He's tried drugs of every sort, and most religions (I think he was in EST, Scientology, and Hari Krishna)

It appears that he and his wife (not his old lady any more, Ha Ha!) now belong to a PRESBYTERIAN Church. Now I don't know what goes on in there, but I doubt if there's a lot of human sacrifice!!

He's still anti war....but, he's willing to discuss it. He sure wouldn't have been thirty five years ago.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: jimmyt
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 12:38 PM

RIck, that was my point, exactly. There is a possibility that what seemed logical when he was 20 doesn't when he is 50. and viceversa

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Linda Kelly
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 02:56 PM

Can't think of any religion other than buddhism which doesnt endorse killing people or things under certain circumstances- hell someone has to control the peasants - why not the church!

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 04:12 PM

One thing that 911 has done and I am painfully aware of this, is to have made racism acceptable in many denominations of many American churches. 911 has done many other things too but this one is of great concern to me.

I think from a Theo-Polical view we are looking at The Crusades all over again.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 04:37 PM

Business and Industry and Science are in lock step with the organized religions, "Industrial religions" as they're called in environmental philosophy circles.

"Autochthonous" religions are smaller, local, and based on the landscape from which they arose. Most of those have been severely altered or wiped out by the Industrial religions.

Big or small, many religions create and Us vs Them binary, making war easily justifiable. Turn Them into an Object and then you can justify a lot of things. The Catholic Pope has conducted war against his own folks when he thought they were going to make The Church obsolete (the Gnostics). Many other religions have similar factions (such as Islam, with the Taliban, etc.).

Sometimes using the crutch of religion as a way to deal with personal problems means swallowing the whole package. A friend of mine in high school, whose family life was as turbulent as any I've ever seen, with numerous divorces, marriages, step- and half-brothers and sisters, finally ended up in the Jehovah's Witnesses. For her it was the first stable environment she'd been in in years. We stopped being friends because she couldn't turn off the preaching, so there was a tradeoff.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 04:55 PM

I guess you can tell by now that my typing skills are shot today. That should read "an Us vs Them binary. . .

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 04:57 PM

autochthon


n. native; aboriginal species. autochthonous, a. autochthony, n.



SRS:

I think almost all conversions operate on the same principle -- a remedy to confusion that seems impenetrable. Typically there is some core precept in such a safe answer which acts as a meme-seed and generates all kinds of perspectives in consequence which would never make sense unless and until ou bought the core precept.

The benefit is that with some such stable piece of certainty in position, you can look the world in the eye and believe it is making sense, as long as you don't look too closely!!   

Obviosuly when you get a mass agreement going they share a major vested interest in reinforcing the key precepts and conversely aiding each other in the rejection of any anomalous information, and this can lead to a plague of ideational necrosis and nefandous miscomprehensions. :>)

A

nefandous:
a. unspeakable.

necrosis
n. mortification of tissue.

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: DougR
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 05:00 PM

Obivously, Don, he does not feel it is "dubious" as you do.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: DougR
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 05:06 PM

Jimmyt: how on earth did you come up with something as logical as that? Paraphrasing: maybe he just grew up; maybe he knows more now than he did then.

Very astute, my friend, and you didn't need multiple paragraphs to get your point across. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 07:58 PM

Just goes to show that insanity can strike anyone, anywhere, without warning... pre-emptive insanity!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 08:07 PM

Most Christians denominations have come out against this war, even in the USA, as I've heard.

Some people change their way of seeing the world drastically over the years, and end up fighting against the things they once fought for. But I think, more generally it's that, once you've found your way of seeing the world, you stick with that - but as the world changes around you, naturally that can mean that your relative position changes.

If you're lucky, the struggles you get into while you are young can succeed in getting the changes you believe in, or stopping the changes you don't believe in. And then you spend your energy trying to protect them against more of what seem the wrong changes.

Myself, I've still to see a lot of the changes I'd love to see, and a lot of the changes I always hated have kept happening. I think I'm a bit better at understanding how it is some people see things so different from me, but, other than that, I still have pretty well the same picture of how I'd like things to be as I did back when I was, say, 25. As the song has it:

Oh, my friend, we're older but no wiser
For in our hearts the dreams are still the same

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:01 PM

Amen and hallelujah, friend McGrath. Very astutely observed. I, too, feel that my core values haven't changed since I came of age. What has changed is my capacity to be tolerant of differing viewpoints.

My earlier post was of course facetious, but not entirely silly: I cannot imagine executing a complete turnabout such as Andy seems to have done. (I hope Don Meixner will forgive me a bit of speculation about his friend.) It suggests a man who was never really sure of what he believed in to begin with, and who, when he became frustrated with his early causes, switched "faith", as it were. No doubt he'll remain frustrated.

Everybody's looking for something, as the song says. People throw themselves into religions or political movements (PMs) because they are, as are we all, looking for answers... but not just any sort of answer: they need to be comforting ones. PMs and religions are obliged to attract followers, so they make sure their message is the one people want/need to hear.

Any perceptive person will soon notice that the advertisement doesn't match the actual product, and become disillusioned. And many of these will turn right around and plug into some other belief system, not realizing that the problem is not with any particular movement or message, but with the faulty notion that organized belief systems (PMs or religions) can deliver what they promise.

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: John Hardly
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:14 PM

and there is no possibility that he has grown closer to, rather than farther from the truth?

Not all truth is empirical truth. Most thinking people seem to acknowledge this.

Well constructed verbage isn't the same as truth.

Hope isn't the same as truth.

Conscensus isn't the same as truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:29 PM

I am pleased to admit that my core values are rock steady and as intact as they were in 1970. My opinions may have changed but my values are still very much intact. Everyone gets the same shake, equallity is just that. Censorship is my job and no one elses. My rights as well as evrybodys are clearly defined by the US constitution.   No where is there a line that says "...except Jews" or "....except women." or ".... especially Muslims" or "...unless there are more of them than the other kind." The state won't mess with your church, lets your church not mess with the state.

But lets face it. With each of us definitions are the bug. One mans core is anothers peel so to speak. The conservatives and the liberals want exactly the same thing, a free America. The paths they follow to the goal are different. And each path is frought with considerable potential for harm. And this may come as no surprise to anyone: I beleive there is no singular righteous path. You gotta follow both roads.

What strikes me about Andy (Not his real name) is the irony of the situation. And dare I say hypocracy as well?

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Mar 03 - 11:33 PM

Most thinking people seem to be against war, as well...

I agree, John, only truth is the same as truth. Too bad it can never be known by mortal man.

And of course there are always possibilities. My problem is with the certainties people claim to possess.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: DougR
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 12:27 AM

Michael: do you know one single person who favors war? I certainly have not seen evidence of this in all of the threads posted on the Mudcat. There are those, however, and I count myself as one of them, that believe that some conflicts cannot be settled without war. The Iraq situation, for the many, many, reasons already posted here, and verbalized by the Secretary of State at the Security Council appears to be one of those conflicts.

To all of you who are so proud of never having changed your POV since your earlier days, I would only say, is that evidence that you have grown in your thinking, or stagnated in your thinking?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 04:32 PM

I heard Eldridge Cleaver speak after he found Christ and gave up his old ways. As he told his story it seemed to me that, in spite of the independent and revolutionary act he'd put on, that he'd always been a follower. He followed Marx & who knows who or what else, and when I saw him he was following Christ.

Seemed to me he hadn't changed his main principle, which was to follow a Great Man who had the Truth. He just changed Great Men.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: michaelr
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 08:26 PM

Well Doug, I sure don't want to get into a debate about the war (again), and I've read enough of your posts to know that we'll just have to agree to disagree.

You ask, To all of you who are so proud of never having changed your POV since your earlier days, I would only say, is that evidence that you have grown in your thinking, or stagnated in your thinking?

I would answer neither. It is evidence that my moral/ethical core has not been corrupted by living in this f**ked-up world, that my BS/propaganda detector is working well, and that my belief system holds up well over time. None of this has very much to do with "thinking", IMO.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 08:48 PM

I believe there are always some people who see war as a good thing, and I don't mean people who've posted here. They see it as a healthy thing for society, tightens things up, speeds up technological development, gets rid of the flabbinesss. But that'sa maytter fpor another thread - and there's a good choice of threads about that stuff.

My feeling is that if you're looking for the right thing in the first place, you ought to be looking for it all through your life, until you find it - and then you are looking to preserve it.

Of course you might find you are looking for it in a different place. Or you might decide you were looking for it in the wrong place.

So that makes three reasons you might change - one is that you found what you were looking for, and move from looking for it to defending it. The second is you realise that it's to be found in a different place. And the third is that you decide you were looking for the wrong thing to start off.

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: khandu
Date: 12 Mar 03 - 10:50 PM

Generally, I refrain from threads such as this. I am not "knocking" them; I just don't get involved with them.

It is not my desire to sound "preachy", but I must say this. I am what many call a "born-again" Christian. As such, my first allegiance is to Jesus Christ. My whole experience with Him has nothing to do with "religion", nor with politics. It has to do with my private relationship with Him. Being a Christian does not mean I am Republican, nor does it mean I am Democrat. Nor does it mean that I support or protest the war.

Years ago, Mississippi had a US Representative that was caught up in a scandal of pedophilia. He was our elected representative. But those whom he was to represent were not pedophiles. He represented only himself.

Such it is with many of the "Representatives of Christ". They are actually only representing themselves under the cover of His Name.

Please, don't confuse the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons and the "Political Christians" with Christianity. They are two different things entirely.

Andy choices have little to do with the Simplicity found in Christ; "Love one another, even as I have loved you." Simple, yet earth-shaking in its application.

Ken

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: DonMeixner
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 12:27 AM

Ken,

That would make you a true Christian in my book. And tho' you may have been born again as a follower of Christ's teachings you are certainly not the example of the Born Again Christian I am used to dealing with in Central New York. Politics and power are never far below the liturgical surface around here.

I believe that it is possible to be religous without having religion come into play.

A few more people like you could renew my faith in, ah, Faith.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 07:47 AM

Andy walks with me,
Andy talks with me.
Andy tells me I am his own...

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Mar 03 - 10:17 PM

Reading this thread makes me smile, and remember when my sons were growing up. When they'd make some broad pronouncement that lumped everyone together (why is it that 95% of generalities are judgmental?) I'd say in my best radio announcer voice, "According to a recent, nationwide poll..." and then let my voice tail off. They got the point. They were taking the most selective personal sampling of a group and generalizing the perceived worst qualities to extend to everyone in that category. They seem much less prone to do that now.

And I'm all with you, Khandu. Not everyone who calls themselves a Christian is one. You can call yourself a chocolate milk shake, but that doesn't make you one.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Kim C
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 01:04 PM

Khandu, I knew there were a lot of reasons why I liked you. :-)

That is something I have been trying to explain to my mother and grandmother for years. They think if a person is to be a Christian, they have to go to worship in the church; and because I choose not to worship in a church, I must not be a Christian and I'll probably go to hell.

For me it isn't about Church. It's about that personal relationship, like you said.

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 08:20 PM

"Not everyone who calls, "Lord, Lord" will enter the Kingdom of Heaven" (Matthew 8: 21).

There's always a fitting quote to be found.

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Neighmond
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 08:42 PM

God is my father, and Jesus My savior.

That being said, I believe this mess in Iraq is solely for mans' material gain, and as such want no part in it.

Chaz

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 09:18 PM

Please, don't confuse the Jerry Falwells and Pat Robertsons and the "Political Christians" with Christianity. They are two different things entirely.

This argument is very nuanced--point taken--and was actually never meant to be excluded. The lumping I did above in those generalizations did have to do with the vocal representatives, who have much to gain if they can persuade others of their calling.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: michaelr
Date: 14 Mar 03 - 10:19 PM

Well, if they're so entirely different, I would be intrigues to see that difference explained.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 07:42 AM

How about this for a start - an Aardvark and a Hippopotamus are both mammals, but they have some pretty significant differences.

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 08:46 AM

I'm a chocolate milkshake, rich and brown
Grab your straw and drink me down
Just ignore the fat count, go for taste,
Watch me go straight to your waist!
Who can so remind you of days gone by!
Chocolate, chocolate, milkshake I!

(There...now it's a musical thread!)

Michael R:

People find their truths in different ways. And then they do different things with them. Some ponder, some dramatize their "rightness" and some use them to live the best way they can.

I expect that if the religion were removed entirely from the picture, the dramatizers would still dramatize, the ponderers would ponder on, and the people who cared to do so would seek ways to live well.

Aardvarks are more tolerant than hippos, except if you're an ant, I guess. Better looking, too -- unless you're a hippo your own self. :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 09:10 AM

The minute people start to categorize others (always judgmentally), they lose me... Those Christians!... Those Atheists!... those people on welfare!... Those Republicans!... Those Conservatives!...

Thank God life isn't that simple.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 10:16 AM

Jeeze, Jerry , how you expect to run a zoo without a taxonomy, man? ;>) Actually, as a second thought, it is the labeling that makes life seem complex -- without it things would be simpler indeed! But that was Now, and this is Zen.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: jimmyt
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 10:19 AM

that's why Jerry finds me so intriguing and delightful! I am pleasent, kind, generous, help old ladies across the street, and yet, I am a CON*E*R*T*VE! I can't even write the word, without offending!......grin

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Amos
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 10:41 AM

Jimmy --

Conertve....Is that a new kind of subspecies, a philosophy, or a form of disability? Oh, wait -- I think we had one once.

But the back wheels fell off.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: jimmyt
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 11:02 AM

Amos, There you go name calling!!! I am telling Jerry on you!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 12:21 PM

Jimmy is a good man who happens to be a C word. One of the most deeply commited(putting words into action)people I have ever met happens to be a conservative. He even outshines Jimmy.

Some Conservatives are downright warm and fuzzy.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: Deda
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 01:22 PM

Any perceptive person will soon notice that the advertisement doesn't match the actual product, and become disillusioned

The problem for me is that strong religious conviction, of almost any denomination, tends to shut OFF perception. This isn't true necessarily of private, personal religious experience -- but once people start to gather in groups and compare notes and rely on agreements and the written word, the whole practice of perception seems to go wonky. I have tremendous personal faith, but I can't handle any religious system -- other than saying prayers with my husband every day.

I went through a long period when I let strong group-belonging conviction pretty much bury my own inner morality. Then I had to grow up, which meant drawing my own moral beliefs out of their coma and letting them come back to life. Miraculously, they had survived quite well.

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:02 PM

Exactly, Deda -- any time you subscribe to a belief system, you're expected to leave your critical reasoning at the door (and if you don't want to, you'll likely be disinvited). This goes for organized religions and political movements alike.

Aardvarks and hippos, huh? Some folks seem to be dodging the question... ;-)

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 06:01 PM

"These people who categorize others..."

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: harlowpoet
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 02:26 AM

'Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God'

Matthew 5.9

How anyone who calls themselves christian and supports the dropping of bombs on innocent people, anywhere on this planet, has a serious problem, not with me, but the the creator they purport to pray to.
A pro-war christian can only ever be an oxy moron.

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: mg
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 03:05 AM

well the problem, harlowpoet, is that there are sometimes very guilty bad wicked people, doing very not nice things to the innocent people. They often do not stand in areas away from the innocent people. In fact, they sometimes intersperse themselves amongst the innocent people or use the innocent people as shields. And they go on to find more and more innocent people to do this to. It can be a dilemma of sorts, even for a Christian. Probably for Christ himself. Perhaps for even St. Michael the Archangel. Fortunately you don't seem to have any great struggle with it so perhaps you could offer them your counsel. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 04:48 AM

mg:

It is indeed a dilemma. I don't know what the solution is, but I don't think "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out" is it.

Maybe Lyndon Johnson was on to something when he said he wasn't going to send American boys to do a job Vietmanese boys should be doing. He lied, of course, but maybe there's an idea there. I think some people might rather die fighting a tyrant than be killed to save them from the tyrant.

Again I don't know what the solution is, but there must be more choices than just "Shock and Awe." I do know you can't help people unless they want help, and are working on it themselves.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: harlowpoet
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 05:05 AM

The reason I don't have any great struggle with it, is that my conscience is clear in this regard. Yes, it is a problem for the world and I've been on the stop the war marches. However the teaching of Christ is clear and unambiguous.He said love your enemies.
You can't do this by killing them. Christ had no dilemma here.

If people want to make the world a better place, they should try and start doing some good in their own communities rather than raining down bombs of mass destruction on some poor buggers in another part of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Let me tell you about Andy
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 02:08 PM

There are lots of arguments you can marshall in support of violence as the only way to deal with some kind of situation. But when it comes to saying that they are consistent with Christianity, that is a much harder thing to argue.

Traditionally people have tried to reconcile the two things by drawing up requirements for a "just war". However in the case of this one, there seems a pretty general consensus among almost all churches around the world that it does not satisfy these requirements, and it is not a just war.