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BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson

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GUEST,I'm Max and I'm mad 15 Mar 03 - 12:27 PM
GUEST 15 Mar 03 - 01:41 PM
GUEST 15 Mar 03 - 01:51 PM
Lepus Rex 15 Mar 03 - 02:04 PM
GUEST,nathan 15 Mar 03 - 03:06 PM
Peter T. 15 Mar 03 - 03:10 PM
CarolC 15 Mar 03 - 03:16 PM
catspaw49 15 Mar 03 - 03:28 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Mar 03 - 03:38 PM
Peter T. 15 Mar 03 - 03:59 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Mar 03 - 04:20 PM
CarolC 15 Mar 03 - 04:40 PM
katlaughing 15 Mar 03 - 04:55 PM
katlaughing 15 Mar 03 - 04:57 PM
Rick Fielding 15 Mar 03 - 05:11 PM
CarolC 15 Mar 03 - 05:30 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Mar 03 - 06:06 PM
Jack the Sailor 15 Mar 03 - 06:27 PM
michaelr 15 Mar 03 - 09:47 PM
Sorcha 15 Mar 03 - 10:05 PM
Deda 15 Mar 03 - 11:03 PM
CarolC 15 Mar 03 - 11:46 PM
katlaughing 16 Mar 03 - 10:05 AM
Beccy 16 Mar 03 - 10:38 AM
Amos 16 Mar 03 - 11:05 AM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 17 Mar 03 - 11:39 AM
Jack the Sailor 17 Mar 03 - 12:12 PM
GUEST,Peter T. 17 Mar 03 - 12:20 PM
Naemanson 17 Mar 03 - 05:06 PM
GUEST 17 Mar 03 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 17 Mar 03 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 17 Mar 03 - 05:30 PM
GUEST 17 Mar 03 - 05:40 PM
Beccy 17 Mar 03 - 05:43 PM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 18 Mar 03 - 12:00 AM
GUEST,Peter T. 18 Mar 03 - 12:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 12:58 PM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 18 Mar 03 - 01:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 01:46 PM
Ebbie 18 Mar 03 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,Dreaded Guest 18 Mar 03 - 06:12 PM
Peter T. 18 Mar 03 - 06:39 PM
Mark Clark 18 Mar 03 - 07:08 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Mar 03 - 07:21 PM
Mark Clark 18 Mar 03 - 07:29 PM
CarolC 18 Mar 03 - 08:46 PM
Amos 18 Mar 03 - 09:04 PM
GUEST,Mel Gibson's Uncle Epi 18 Mar 03 - 09:15 PM
catspaw49 18 Mar 03 - 09:27 PM
Mark Clark 18 Mar 03 - 10:59 PM

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Subject: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: GUEST,I'm Max and I'm mad
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 12:27 PM

There is a facinating article about Mel Gibson and his father in the New York Times Magazine .

Movie star Mel is making a film about the last 12 hours in the life of Jesus that, apparently, will not sit well with Jews.

Mel's father is Hutton Gibson a Catholic theologian who regards Vatican II as a Jewish conspiracy. Hutton Gibson is also a Holocaust denier and says that Al Qaida was not responsible for 9/11, that the planes were flown into the World Trade Center and Pentagon by remote control.

Don't take my word for it. Read the article on the New York Times Magazine site.

Notice to Hollywood: Never again will my money ever go to the box office of any movie with any connection to Mel Gibson.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 01:41 PM

I don't think this is from Max, the founder of Mudcat. I think his name is based on the Mel Gibson movies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 01:51 PM

Whoa, those Gibsons are a strange, strange family. God save us from the zealots of any religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 02:04 PM

This whole Mel Gibson thing has been amusing the Hell out of me for a while now. Hopefully, being outed as an anti-Semitic cultist will slow down his endless stream of really fucking bad films. :)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: GUEST,nathan
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 03:06 PM

for related news = click here


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 03:10 PM

I thought Braveheart was Jesus. Hard to keep track....yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 03:16 PM

I don't know very much about the subject of "the last 12 hours in the life of Jesus". Would someone please explain to me what is supposed to have happened and who did what? Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 03:28 PM

Lenny Bruce once said he had a cousin they found in the basement who had hanged himself. On his shirt was piined a final note:


I did it.
I killed him.
I killed Jesus.
Signed,
Morty
PS-Mom, the liver is behind the gefilte fish in the fridge.




Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 03:38 PM

There is nothing in the New York Times article to indicate antisemitism on Mr. Gibson's part. You are entitled to your opinion about his movies. Guest "Max" What stake exactly do Jews have in a depiction of Jesus? Everything that Gibson has said he intends to depict can be supported in the Gospels. He said that jews might be upset, only in answer to a leading and inflamitory question. Every movie that is made upsets someone. There is nothing wrong or particularly inflamitory about the proposed movie.

Also the writer of the article takes care not to equate Hutton's conspiracy theory with Mel's beliefs. It is unfair to condemn Gibson forhis father's opinions, unless he publicly agrees with or supports them.

BTW
Thanks for the article. It was an interesting read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Peter T.
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 03:59 PM

In the last twelve hours, depending on which version of the gospels you rely on (they are contradictory, sorry fundamentalists), Judas betrays the whereabouts of Jesus, who after the last supper goes and prays in the Garden of Gethsemane. He is then arrested, and for the next few hours (according to the mixed sources) is shunted backwards and forwards between the high priests (the Sanhedrin) and the Romans (Pontius Pilate), as they try and sort out who has responsibility for this guy -- threatening the Temple, threatening public security during a busy week in Jersualem, or threatening the Roman Empire? The question to which no one has ever been able to supply a definitive answer is whether Pilate eventually acted on his own initiative, or whether he was taking recommendations from the priests. The Romans had to be a little careful with messiahs. I would personally guess that Pilate did it on his own bat eventually, maybe from the start. There is a gospel scene in Matthew where the Jewish people supposedly ritually take on the crime -- "let his blood be on us and on our children" and Pilate washes his hands, etc. -- but it is usually supposed by scholars that this was written much later when the early Christian church was battling to separate itself from Judaism. If Gibson thinks that this is the real history, then his film will be deeply anti-semitic (alas, like Bach's St. Matthew Passion).

Anyway, during and after this, Jesus is subjected to tortures and scourgings, and then sent out to die.

It is actually a great story about power and bureaucracy. It could be told really well on film, but none of the crillion movies I have seen on it really does the jockeying of bureaucracies justice.
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:20 PM

Well yes Peter, as a matter of fact the whole concept of Christianity is anti-semitic. It is an offence to the Jewish faith to claim that Jesus is the Messiah of old testament prophecy. It is anti-semitism which they must live with and must tollerate. Gibson is just one more of the couple of billion people who have professed belief in the New Testament.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:40 PM

Thanks Peter T. That's very interesting. I'm not entirely clear on a few points though.

You said, "high priests (the Sanhedrin)"

Were the Sanhedrin Jewish high priests, or Roman high priests?

He is then arrested, and for the next few hours (according to the mixed sources) is shunted backwards and forwards between the high priests (the Sanhedrin) and the Romans (Pontius Pilate), as they try and sort out who has responsibility for this guy -- threatening the Temple, threatening public security during a busy week in Jersualem, or threatening the Roman Empire?

Was there any sort of law that he was being arrested for? How was he threatening the Temple, public security, or the Roman Empire?

There is a gospel scene in Matthew where the Jewish people supposedly ritually take on the crime -- "let his blood be on us and on our children" and Pilate washes his hands, etc

In whose eyes, or according to whose standards of criminality was it considered a crime to kill Jesus, and why would Pilate want to wash his hands of it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:55 PM

PeterT...I thought JC Superstar did a fairly good, but brief view of the power and bureaucracy.:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 04:57 PM

Forgot to say what I find interesting about Gibson's movie is it will be all in Latin and Aramaic with no subtitles.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 05:11 PM

"Scourging"! That's what's been missing from MY life. Thanks Peter...helluva religion.

Cheers

Rick

P.S. I can hardly believe that when I was 18 people considered Hari Krishna, and Bahai 'weird' religions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 05:30 PM

One other question: are the Gospels the only historical accounts of these events? Did any mention of these events show up in any historical accounts kept by the Romans, Jews, or anyone else?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 06:06 PM

So if your father is a strange kind of guy, you're responsible are you? That's a new one on me.

"those Gibsons are a strange, strange family" - but they make some good guitars...


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 06:27 PM

I agree McGrath! I have a Gibson j45!


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 09:47 PM

Heads up, Carol C -- the gospels can by no stretch of the imagination be considered "historical documents". They were written years, if not decades, after the purported events, and many scholars agree that they were likely intended as inspirational (read: propaganda) material, not as accurate accounts. Hence the major discrepancies between the gospels.

Jack the Sailor disparages "belief in the New Testament". Are we to understand that it makes more sense to believe in the Old Testament?

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 10:05 PM

Carol,
"You said, "high priests (the Sanhedrin)"
Jewish

"Was there any sort of law that he was being arrested for? How was he threatening the Temple, public security, or the Roman Empire?"
It was Passover and Jeruslem was very crowed. He was threatening the entire Jewish Preistly Heirarchy and the Roman Empire by being a traitor to Judaism and a rabble rouser for the Romans.

"In whose eyes, or according to whose standards of criminality was it considered a crime to kill Jesus, and why would Pilate want to wash his hands of it?"
Because he was semi popular with the unwashed masses, nobody wanted to take the responsibility for killing him, hence the buck passing, just like all beauracrcys everywhere.

"One other question: are the Gospels the only historical accounts of these events? Did any mention of these events show up in any historical accounts kept by the Romans, Jews, or anyone else?"
Not sure, but I think some of it does show up in Roman stuff, will find out about the Jewish stuff, but I think it shows up there. Judasim admits he exists, but not that he was the Messiah. Islam also recognizes him as a prophet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Deda
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 11:03 PM

Historical data about Jesus' life is very thin. Pontius Pilate shows up in Roman Records, I believe, and the Roman census which caused Joseph and Mary to travel to Bethlehem is historically accurate and is how historians know that Jesus could not have been born in the wrongly-calculated year one, but must have been born a few years earlier. (The miscalculation was the fault of a monk of maybe 2nd century or so named Dionysius Exiguus, or Dennis the Small.) By 64 AD, the time of Nero's famous fire in Rome, there is a small cult of practicing Christians in Rome, and Nero blames the fire on them and has them all crucified and (I think) burned on the crosses -- but that's 64 AD. There is a Roman-Jewish historian of 1st century named Josephus, bn 37/38 AD, who wrote in both Aramaic and Latin and even wrote about Herod the Great, but I don't think he talks at all about Jesus -- although I'm not certain of that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Mar 03 - 11:46 PM

Heads up, Carol C -- the gospels can by no stretch of the imagination be considered "historical documents".

Thanks Michael. I purposely avoided the word "document" for the reasons you mentioned. I guess they could be considered an "account" if one uses the term very loosely. That's why I wondered what "accounts" there might have been that have origins in sources other than the New Testament, if any.

JtS actually wasn't "disparaging" the New Testament. He's a Christian. He believes in both of the testaments.

Thanks Sorcha and Deda. This is very interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 10:05 AM

For anyone who is really interested in the ancient language of Aramaic and how it translates in metaphysical terms, rather than literal, I highly recommend The Metaphysical Bible Dictionary by Charles Fillmore. There are other places to buy it, but this is the first that came up on google. It's a fascinating read whether one is Christian, religious, or not.

Likewise the Mystical Life of Jesus and The Secret Doctrines of Jesus both by H. Spencer Lewis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Beccy
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 10:38 AM

What Mr. Noxon failed to mention was his personal interest in this discrediting Mel Gibson. Noxon's father owns property adjacent to the plot of land where the Holy Family church was built. His father has filed public complaints about the structure stating that it lowers his property value.

Perhaps a little full disclosure might've been handy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Amos
Date: 16 Mar 03 - 11:05 AM

I am sure it does lower his property value. He'll probably just have to get used to it.

Lordy, Lordy the streams of chaos issued in thy name are legion -- enough bushwah to fill even many mansions!

I wonder, now if there is some strange metaphysical leverage that accrues to people who pump out BS. Hmmmmm? It can't be as whacky as it seems...or can it?

Arguing that the Creator specified a Latin mass is surely a huge piece of hubris. Dear me.... what a species we are in!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 11:39 AM

Hutton Gibson won the national Jeopardy championship back in the 1960's and used the money to move his large family from the U.S. to Australia so his boys wouldn't be chewed up by the American draft system...fighting for the global bankers' interests in VietNam.

Hutton Gibson began to question the New World Order after Eastern Europe was given to Russia at the end of WW2. He said at that moment he realized all was not as it seemed. Russia was in no position to make demands, but the Allies gave them vast amounts of territory. He began researching and came to realize communism had been fabricated as an 'enemy' for the Allies. Then he researched further and found the old-family money and military-industrial complex, banking conglomerates, etc. were behind the shaping of world events. He's known about the Organized Crime activity of the globalists for 55 years, and he took steps to protect his family from the consequences of an engineered war in VietNam. Sharp man.

And Mel Gibson is a decent, religious person, so he's about to be crucified. Ironic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 12:12 PM

Dreaded Guest, you say that Hutton Gibson won a Jeopardy contest. I think you have proven once agian that when it comes to conspiracy theories, smart people can say some really dumb things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 12:20 PM

Hutton Gibson sounds even loonier than I thought. "Russia was in no position to make demands?" (Who does he think won the War, and was on the ground in all these countries? Tom Hanks?)

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Naemanson
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 05:06 PM

It's fun to stand on the outside and watch the religious people argue over which of them is right.

You know that they are all wrong. God does not belong to a church. Look within and find Him and do not listen to those who would direct your search.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 05:15 PM

As far as I'm concerned, Hutton Gibson's denial of the Nazi Holocaust of European Jewry, not to mention his denial of Al Qaida's destruction of the WTC, disqualifies me from ever believing anything he says about anything. What a despicable bastard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 05:24 PM

Jack, if I cared beyond the time it takes to type this what you think, I'd do a search and find Gibson's bio concerning the Jeopardy championship (national gameshow). I heard the man interviewed, and he said that was the money that helped re-locate his family to Australia. He won not just a contest, but the national championship of the gameshow and was awarded a bit of money for it. So he used it to save his sons from dying.

And Russia was GIVEN Eastern Europe. The historians have blamed it on Roosevelt's ill health at the time of the negotiations, but it was more than that. He was helping to create the communist empire on orders from the global bankers who had financed the war. Russia was weakened, the Allies had the fresh armies in Europe and the Bomb...and Roosevelt gave the U.S.S.R. (which had been Hitler's ally for a large part of the war) the territory. Now we know why...so Americans could be sold the fallacy of the 'Cold War'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 05:30 PM

Oh, and Gibson never denied the holocaust. At least that's what he said when I heard him interviewed. Apparently (without even seeing a foot of the new film..'The Passion') certain groups have lauched a demonization campaign against the movie by attacking Mel and Hutton Gibson. They haven't seen a foot of the film, but they're concerned about who might be 'blamed' for killing Jesus. So they've started a mis-information campaign. It'll just sell more tickets. I guess that'll be a racist statement too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 05:40 PM

Gibson never denied the holocaust.

Maybe Mel never denied the Holocaust, but his sick fuck of a father certainly has. And little Mel has never repudiated his father's sick theories.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Beccy
Date: 17 Mar 03 - 05:43 PM

Guest- I saw the interview with O'Reilly. Mel said that his elderly father had some very strange ideas and that did not understand why someone would want his opinion unless it was to tarnish (Mel's) his reputation. I think that's about as close as you can get to repudiating it without breaking that pesky "Honor Thy Father and Mother..." commandment.

Beccy


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:00 AM

Sorry Jack. Re-read your post and saw I mis-read it earlier. Yeah, for a bright guy he's not behaved brightly. Long day.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:31 PM

Sure, makes perfect sense, those global bankers supporting Stalin.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 12:58 PM

If you want to hide a leaf, you hide it in a heap of leaves. If you wan to hide a real conspiracy, you hide it in a heap of phoney conspiracies, which is what our friend "dratted guest" is doing consistently, and, I am quite sure, intentionally.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:45 PM

No conspiracy. You've subscribed to it all your life, most like. "It takes money to make money".

And the old colonial powers and royal powers and mafias and the newer banking consortiums and corporations have all banded together to serve their common interest. The same way the half-dozen major bankers in the US did a hundred years ago to form the Federal Reserve. If they had fought, they'd spend all their money AGAINST each other. So they formed a monopoly (the Fed) and started fleecing the American people.

That's what's been going on worldwide, too, for the past hundred years. Communism was created to be a Cold War enemy for 'capitalism'. Only, we don't have capitalism. With tarriffs and quotas and taxes, we have a govt-controlled economy (in the US). But people STILL talk about 'capitalism' and 'democracy' like that really IS America. Incredible.

It's all hidden in plain sight. Hutton Gibson saw that when Russia was handed enormous territories in defiance of logic. Hitler's old ally was given territory the Allies had liberated at the cost of Allied lives. So he found out why the U.S. Air Corps wasn't allowed to bomb certain areas of Hamburg (the Ford factories, Westinghouse, etc.) and he began tracking the money. And it's all tied together.

Today the Bushes and bin Ladens are in business together, just like Ford and Prescott Bush were with Hitler. The bin Ladens just bailed out of the Carlyle group, but until last year the Bushes and bin Ladens were making money together off the 'war on terrorism' via the Carlyle group.

These racketeers make no effort to hide this stuff, aside from misdirecting you folks with TV sleight-of-hand. The REAL effort is being made by you...you have to constantly force yourself to ignore the obvious.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 01:46 PM

See what I mean?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 03:06 PM

McGrath, I'm starting to agree with you. But why is he using a sledge hammer when a stiletto would be more subtle?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: GUEST,Dreaded Guest
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:12 PM

Most of the financial conspiracies are real and tied together. Forget the aliens and UFOs...just concentrate on the financial end. Follow the money. It all leads back to the same few people. A couple hundred people have inherited financial empires and used them in continuance of a FORMALIZED plan a hundred years old. Before then it's a bit vague, but a hundred years ago all the super-rich began pooling their resources in order to buy up all the real estate on the planet. And now they're about to do it. First they had to secure govts. In the US that meant founding the CIA and then installing the grandson of one of the founders (and son of former CIA head) in the White House. And now (since we have no special prosecutor to keep him honest) our CIA dictator can do what he wants. So he'll wreck the American economy. Guranteed. And you won't be able to declare bankruptcy when the crisis hits you, so the govt gets your real estate. And that's just ONE scheme they're going to use.

There's nothing confusing about this. The US govt has been taken over by the CIA, and now the super wealthy are going to take everything you have. And you couldn't even pronounce the names of half the people who will end up with your property. We just had a hundred major corporate scandals, and no one has gone to prison because the trail is too international and too confusing. But that doesn't help the people who were financially ruined by the collapse of their pension funds, etc.

This is known as Organized Crime, by the way. That's who is running the world now. And the war in Iraq is an example of Racketeering. The Dept of Defense and the oil concerns have conspired to create a war under false pretenses. What more evidence of 'conspiracy' do you need? Is the war necessary? No. Then why are we going to launch it? So someone can make a buck. If I did that, I'd be jailed for racketeering.

The US govt orchestrated Sept 11 in order to steal Iraq's oil and create martial law in the US. After Bush and Cheney have used US troops to secure the Iraqi well-heads (so Haliburton can broker oil sales to the UN), we'll have a new war somewhere else as Americans at home wet themselves and give up rights guranteed by our Constitution. Ashcroft keeps saying there is no follow-up planned to the PATRIOT Act but it is Senate Bill 22. He knows no one will bother to look it up, so he just lies about it. But it'll be ready to go when the next terrorist event occurs, and then you will lose absolutely everything it means to be an American. You will lose (primarily) your right to freedom and property, which ties back into the money-trail. Follow the money. Who gains by sending you to a concentration camp? The govt. Why? Because they get your property. So, who is in charge of the govt? The super-rich Bush family and lots of other super-rich private sector corporate heads. What is so hard to understand about all this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Peter T.
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 06:39 PM

Yes, but what of Agent Scully and the alien baby? Not to mention the Rosicrucians.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Mark Clark
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:08 PM

I've never been one to buy into all the wild conspiracy theories that get bandied about these days but remember that just because most conspiracy theories amount to wild ravings doesn't mean there are no conspiracies. And learning that you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

We were in NYC over the weekend and I remember reading that Mel Gibson is building (has built?) a Roman Catholic church in LA that is not part of any recognized diocese and will offer Mass in Latin. I'm not familiar with Roman Catholic ecclesiastical practice but can this be considered a canonical Roman Catholic church?

I don't really follow the lives of actors so I wasn't aware of the movie thing. I figure he can make a movie about anything he wants and audiences can buy tickets or not, just as with any movie.


WARNING! The following content is meant neither to impugn nor alter anyone's belief system, whatever that may be.

  • Original Christian theology didn't hold Jews responsible for Jesus' crucifixion. Any sects that added that idea did so later and just made it up out of their own hatred.
  • In Christian theology, Jesus is the only man ever born for the purpose of dying. For Christians to blame someone for Jesus' death is to miss the whole point of their religion.
  • The original Christians were Jews. It was necessary to be a Jew in order to be a Christian. The first Christians went to Temple with everyone else and just stayed after services to add their own Christian appendix to the service.
  • The books of the New Testament were not composed to act as the history of anything. Like much of the Old Testament, they were originally composed to be sung during worship, not as an academic record of events.

<RANT OFF>



      - Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:21 PM

Crucifixion was of course a Roman method of execution. Stoning would have been the Jewish method.

A Mass can be in any language. The matter of which languages are approved at various times and places is just a question of church discipline. It doesn't in any way affect whether it counts as a real Mass, it just might mean problems from the bishop.


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Mark Clark
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 07:29 PM

Right, I understand about the language. My question is whether a canonical Roman Catholic church can exist that isn't part of any diocese. Doesn't a Bishop have to consecrate a church and doesn't that process automatically make it part of some diocese?

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 08:46 PM

I'm neither Jewish nor Christian, so what may be obvious to someone of either of those religions, might need to be explained to me.

The books of the New Testament were not composed to act as the history of anything. Like much of the Old Testament, they were originally composed to be sung during worship, not as an academic record of events.

This confuses me. What about the part of the Old Testament that tells about who begat whom? Was that part originally composed to be sung during worship? Do Jews not consider the accounts of events in the Old Testament to have any historical validity at all?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Amos
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:04 PM

MARK:

I believe you are right about the orthodoxy of RC "sees". But I believe the church you are speaking of being built by Gibson fils under the influence of Gbson pere has no desire to be accepted by the Church of Rome, which they consider to have been heretical for hundreds of years.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: GUEST,Mel Gibson's Uncle Epi
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:15 PM

So Dreaded Guest, everytime I've read similar theories to yours, they usually drift into American Fundamentalist logic. I think you'd agree that's not exactly a hotbed of deep thought. I'm being serious now, what IS the solution as you see it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 09:27 PM

Mel couldn't get any Bishop to show up at his new church as they said they were afraid of physical violence. They'd heard Mel's Dad was a real jackoff and very good at whipping the bishop ......................... okay, it's bad, but not too much worse than the rest of this friggin' thread.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Mel Gibson and his father, Hutton Gibson
From: Mark Clark
Date: 18 Mar 03 - 10:59 PM

Carol, As far as I know, practicing Jews regard their sacred writings to be historically, theologically and liturgically correct. Much of what Christians call the Old Testament is, I believe, chanted at appropriate times during Jewish worship just as it is in Orthodox Christian worship. Their purpose is traditionally liturgical and serves to focus the attention of the faithful on the tenets and practice of the faith.

In the same way, the four Gospels of the New Testament and the Epistles were intended to be sung (chanted) as part of Christian worship. This tradition was simply extended from the older Jewish practice into the evolving Christian liturgy.

Remember that the Bible was created by the Christian Church for it's own purpose and use, the Christian Church didn't come about because someone read the Bible.

      - Mark


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