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Subject: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Bobert Date: 29 Feb 04 - 08:58 PM Well, gol danged! Looks as if this little Protestant experiement is about to go down the drain... Yup, so called Protestants lining up to be deprogramed by Mel Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ"... Yup, no longer will Protestants be looking at the cross as a symbol of Resurection but suffering. This is the way it used to be about 500 years ago with Baroque depictions of Christ the Sufferer. Then.... wah la... the Reformation and Protestant-ism with less emphasis on the *tricks* use by the Catolic Church to keep the *peanut gallery* in line. Since then it has been Reformation and Counter Reformation.... The Counter Reformationists in the US have been the Jerry Falwells and the Bob Jones (Bob Jones University) who will do anything to push their dogmatism down everyones throats... So now they have their hero.... Mel Gibson and his iconoclastic "The Passion of the Christ". All this means, IMHO, is that they will lead man away from God toward middle men who tell us in what we are to believe.... I'll just let this thread take it's course and not jump in too much but I'll leave you all with the words of Jesus when he said "Blessed are those who have *not* seen yet believe." (John 20: 29). Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Bill D Date: 29 Feb 04 - 09:19 PM Kind of an ambiguous passage, I'd say--...Is Jesus promoting blind faith in general?, or just telling Thomas "yeah, easy for YOU to believe...you see the wounds"...? As to the effect of the movie...nothing I have read in the Bible says there was as much blood and agony and beating and violence as Mel likes to put in his movies! The force of such a graphic film is gonna stir up emotions, that's fer shure! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Rapparee Date: 29 Feb 04 - 09:26 PM Corinthians 15:17. One of the few things ol' Paul got right. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Peace Date: 29 Feb 04 - 09:36 PM Damn people and yer religion threads. Says right here, "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me." If Falwell reads that to yuh, think fer crissake. He's tellin' ya somethin'. He will interpret for you. Stop this THINKING, right now! Do not piss off Zeus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Sorcha Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:01 PM Well, I haven't seen the movie, and don't plan to, but He was 'scourged'...whatever that means... and the Senhedrin (high class priesthood of the Jews) did hate him and want him killed...read your history and BTW, NOBODY tells me what to think. My so called 'Church' found that out when I was about 8 years old. They tossed me out of baptism class for asking intelligent questions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:03 PM Not much to add, Bobert, old buddy. I've seen both responses to the movie. Only the negative one makes it onto Mudcat. I haven't seen the movie, very simply because I don't think I could handle it. The one point I'd add is, I wonder if anyone has changed their mind about Jesus because of this movie. I think the people who went in hating it (those few who actually went to see it) came out of it hating it. Those who went in seeking a deeper awareness of the suffering of Christ, came out with a deeper awareness of the suffering of Christ. So far, everyone I've talked to (or read comments in here) made up their mind about the movie and Gibson's motives long before the first public showing of the movie. As for me, I don't know Mel's motives, or his heart. People can theorize about his motives, but only he and God know them. He didn't make the movie I would make, but I'm not going to knock him for it. As for causing any serious reflection on either side, I don't see that happening. Minds were set in stone on both sides, long before Mel finished the movie. I have enough trouble trying to keep myself honest without hypothesizing about the honesty of others.. Peace.. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Sorcha Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:06 PM And, by the way, my piles are hurting...LOL. Thanks Jerry for a good comment. I'm pretty tired of the uproar over this Just Movie. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Walking Eagle Date: 29 Feb 04 - 10:20 PM Well, in that case, we Unitarians are way ahead of the curve for once. We ALWAYS viewed the cross as a symbol of suffering and death. That's why our symbol is a flamming chalice, meaning light and life to us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: wysiwyg Date: 29 Feb 04 - 11:12 PM Whuhssee tawkin' about? I can't make it out! Bobert, PM me a translation (or ask me how we sees stuff in our place, iffen thass what you want), but I can't cipher it from here! I'se Anglican-- you know we speak English! So speak English an I may get it! ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Mar 04 - 12:51 AM Yeah, it's just a movie. Amazing how much fuss is being stirred up over it. I suggest that in a few months time (or a few weeks) the fuss will be all over, and pretty well everyone will still be believing what they believed before this movie. I'm not going to see it because I usually don't like Mel's movies anyway, and this one sounds like I would definitely not like it, so why risk $10 and my time and patience on that proposition? I would very much like to see the recent "The Gospel of John", however. For a marvelous book about the life of Christ with some significantly different and very intriguing info in it, try reading "The Aquarian Gospel of Jesus the Christ", written by a man named Levi in the late 1800's...long before the New Age movement or the "Age of Aquarius" were in the public consciousness. Levi was the son of a devout Christian preacher in the USA, and was very devout himself. He wrote the book while quite young (late teens or early 20's as I recall), in an apparent state of great inspiration/revelation, and it shows. Darned good book, in my opinion...and it answers some longstanding questions about Jesus in a very satisfactory way. It is a good companion to the gospels, but goes further in many ways and differs in some areas. If revelation exists at all, and I believe it does...then it can happen in any century...not just 2,000 years ago. It could be happening right now to someone, and how many people would know? Probably not very many. You might hear about it fifty years later or not at all. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Joe Offer Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:18 AM I've said it before, but I guess Bobert didn't understand. Mel Gibson is not representative of the Catholic Church. I guess he's still Catholic, but he's way out on the far right fringe, those people who don't think most Catholics are Catholic. But then, John Kerry is Catholic, so maybe Bobert is correct and the Catholics are attacking from both the right and the left. How 'bout them apples? -Joe Offer, more the Kerry variety of Catholic- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:45 AM Relax, Bobert, ole buddy: My oldest son and his wife are Catholic and they're just like you and me. I am not deeply concerned that this movie will "de-program: them if they see it. I don't see a mass conversion of Protestants to Catholics, and there are many issues besides the importance of the cross that differentiate Catholics from Protestants. And even more common beliefs that bring us together. When I was a kid, there was a lot of open prejudice expressed against Catholics. My Father and many others of his generation believed there was a conspiracy in the Catholic church to take over this country, and he thought Catholics were storing guns in the basement of their churches. I hope we've progressed beyond that. Am I missing something about the Pope. All Ive read is that he has declined to make any comment about the movie.. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Rapparee Date: 01 Mar 04 - 09:01 AM Back when dinosaurs roamed the Earth and I was just a young sprout growing up in Illinois on the banks of the Mississippi, I went to Catholic school and church regularily. Now, across the street from the monastery attached to the church was the local college, which was run by the same order of priests who had the parish (Franciscans, OFMs to be precise). Under the street was a tunnel connecting the main college administration building and the monastery, a convenience for the priests who worked at the college and lived in the monastery. Most everyone in town knew about it, because they had to tear up a busy street to make the tunnel. Nobody thought anything awful about it. Except for us kids. At one point we who attended the Catholic school had every non-Catholic kid in the North End of town convinced that not only were there guns stored in that hundred-yard-long tunnel, but that it went clear to the Atlantic Ocean, under the ocean, and straight to the Vatican. At the Vatican we told them that the Swiss Guards were getting ready to invade any day now and take over the town. All the non-Catholics would be put into jail and Catholic kids would be given the toys and bicycles of the non-Catholic kids, so just hand your bike over now and avoid the problems later, okay? Boy, did we get in trouble! Priests, nuns, and parents! Ministers, rabbis -- never saw so many men and women "of religion" in that school before or since! Whoooo! I wouldn't worry about it, Bobert. Catholic Church has enough trouble right now. Mel Gibson still goes to the Latin Mass, I understand -- one of a dwindling number of folks to do so, and some of whom have gotten themselves excommunicated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 01 Mar 04 - 09:06 AM The real motive for making the movie? "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me" Mammon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Rapparee Date: 01 Mar 04 - 09:09 AM Oh, yeah, I ain't seen it and ain't gonna. I've seen enough blood and gore for one lifetime and maybe more. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Amos Date: 01 Mar 04 - 10:06 AM Wise decision. It is never pretty when a granfaloon goes south on ya. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Mar 04 - 11:18 AM There was definitely widespread prejudice against Catholics (among Protestants and other non-Catholics) when I was a kid. I remember it well. It was a carry-over from the old disputes that simmered for hundreds and hundreds of years in Europe, the British Isles, and Ireland. I remember my father (who was essentially an atheist) making dark comments in 1959 about what sort of very bad things would happen if the Americans were so foolish as to elect a Catholic (John Kennedy) president! He wasn't opposed to Democrats, just Catholics. In retrospect, one can easily see that it was my father's fears that were foolish. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 01 Mar 04 - 11:23 AM Little Hawk: I had an Uncle who was a Methodist minister. When Kennedy ran for President, he said "Anyone who votes for Kennedy should be lined up against the wall and shot." He made that statement solely because Kennedy was a Catholic. He was not one of my favorite Uncles. So often, when we express strong opinions, we basically are revealing ourselves. That's humorous, because someone can be very intent about not revealing anything personal about themselves, and then blab it all over the place, the moment they start judging someone else.. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Nerd Date: 01 Mar 04 - 11:58 AM Sorcha, What do you mean, "read your history?" When last I checked there were almost no contemporary or unbiased historical sources about Jesus. Everything we know about him we know from later people who believed he was God. It's a little silly to expect historical accuracy from them. Oh, and Sorcha didn't say it was "just a movie." He said it was a "Just Movie." Maybe it was just a typo, but it was an interesting use of words. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: GUEST Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:47 PM I find it interesting that so many people who have posted find fault with Mel and his movie. Any of you seen it? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 01 Mar 04 - 01:56 PM Good question, DougR. I haven't. Most people believe that you don't have to see the movie to criticize the motives of those who made it, or approve of it. After all, most people already decided what the motives were before the movie ever came out. To me, the movie seems to be more of a vehicle for expressing attitudes about Mel Gibson, Catholics and conservative Christians that existed long before the movie was even thought of. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Mar 04 - 04:12 PM I haven't seen it, Doug, for the usual reason...it's not among the rather few movies out there at the moment that I have a strong desire to see. And as for Mel's more recent movies, the only one I could stand was Braveheart. So why would I go to see this one? Mel and I just don't seem to be on a common wavelength, that's all. I have seldom so regretted spending $10 and 2 hours on a movie as I did on "Signs", starring Mel Gibson. What a crock it was. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 01 Mar 04 - 04:42 PM I agree, Little Hawk. I watched part of Signs in the comfort of my living room (where I was able to turn it off after a few minutes as hoipeless jumk. As for Mel's movies, there are several I liked (although he didn't direct most of them, if that's what everyone means about Mel's movies. I thought the Mad Max movies were good... especially the second one, and I also liked The Man Without A Face and the first couple of Lethal Weapon movies. I thought Braveheart was o.k., and don't know the history well enough to be offended by gross innacuracies. I didn't go to see The Patriot because it just looked like another dumb blockbuster action movie. I passed on Conspiracy (or whatever the exact title is) and the What Women Think (or whatever title it is. I wouldn't avoid going to a movie just because Mel was in it. Now, if Robin Williams or Jim Carey are in it, I might just stay home and watch a Buster Keaton movie. Most of the movies that Mel has made haven't interested me, and it had nothing to do with his religion or his politics. Hey, if I could separate Frank Sinatra's personality and life style from his movies, I can do anything. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Richard Bridge Date: 01 Mar 04 - 04:52 PM Gibson seems to like to set up a race or religion or other group in his movies as the personification of evil. Did everyone get this upset when in several films he set the English up as whipping boys? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 01 Mar 04 - 04:55 PM I hate hoipless jumk! Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 01 Mar 04 - 04:59 PM And I thought Mel was wonderful in Chicken Run. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Little Hawk Date: 01 Mar 04 - 05:24 PM Hoipless Jumk? Isn't that Jar Jar Binks's kid brother? I liked the Mad Max movies okay too. I also liked "The Bounty". Didn't care for the "Lethal Weapon" ones much at all. I seem to be liking Mel's movies less and less as he gets older. I don't get how an Australian becomes transformed into an American super-patriot as he matures...so to speak... I also think his more recent movies suffer from casting one side in a given conflict as supremely evil. It's simplistic and it leads to gross overstatement for the sake of getting the audience all whipped up over something. It makes for successful marketing, but poor history. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 01 Mar 04 - 06:35 PM "I hope we've progressed beyond that" Well, it would be good, but I don't see too much sign of that. Parhaps the bigotry comes in different ways, but it's prevalent enough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Bobert Date: 01 Mar 04 - 06:36 PM Well, not to drift to far from my original thoughts for starting this thread buit I like Mad Max, After the Thunderdome 'cause it remined me of most of the cars I've owned in my life... Now back to "just watching"... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Burke Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:01 PM I haven't seen it & have not decided if I will. In answer to the question of it anyone has changed their thoughts, I do know of one. A member of our church (Episcopal) went on Sat. He said he belives in God but Jesus did not factor much into his religious thinking. He said after the movie he feels the need to rethink his attitude toward Jesus. The movie is just out. Why are people expecting instant reports of the effect of the movie on others faith, etc.? It's the effect next year that's really important, not what we're hearing right now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:02 PM I disagree, most folks who were already radical fundies - both kinds - will jump on the bandwaggon. A good thing to do if you do watch the movie, get and watch 'Schindler's List'. I say that because it often bothered me - brought up in a christian home - that while millions of Jewish people were brutaly murdered, some of them little children!, in WW2 - my family would be going on about how bad it was for one Jewish Rabbai - the one you call Jesus - to have been beaten and executed in 33 AD. As an adult I came to think that the whole thing was blown up into a cult and if the man was still alive to see it, would have been horrified. Lets fact it, what resulted from the early Christian movement is far more like Mithracism than the orthodox Jewish religion he belonged to. In fact, several times in the NT he is quoted saying ' keep G_d's laws and call only G_d good..'. He could have not done otherwise - he was a Rabbai. So even though those fed lots of Paul from the NT militate for some kind neonazichristainity, we all know that such a thing is evil since Paul never ever met the Rabbai. In contrast he did spend a lot of time with Thomas, but what Thomas wrote was banned by the early Church, hmmmm. That is far more likely than the polished social theory in the NT. Then to consider all the other people crucified by Rome in the same decades and far more in later times AT Jerusalem, why chose this man and not some other? So to be absolutely honest, I could not care less about this movie, and I heartily agree with the radio-comentator who said that the movie might not do any good, but could possibly do a lot of harm! Remember again what the Laws say which we were warned to keep. 1 "I am the Lord your G_d, Who has taken you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of slavery' 2 "You shall have no other G_d's but me" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Bobert Date: 01 Mar 04 - 07:36 PM Well, I wasn't going to wade back in to this thread for a while but I can't help but compliment GUEST,sorefingers for this thoughtful post. I also have some concerns that in the mediums that we use to teach folks can be very damaging. That's why I originally brought up the differences in the way Christ has historically been portrayed, especially over the last 600 to 700 years. It may be an over generaliztion but the Reformationist (Protest-ants) have tended to dwell more on love, forgiveness and redemption (resurrection/cleansed) with a symbolicly cleansed cross. When we look back at the art of the Counter Reformationist we find more blood and suffering which, IMHO, tends to try to ramrod a feeling to march in step, or else... My intent is not to criticize the Catholic Church but, upon reflection, I'm sure it sounds like I am doing just that. I'm just curious why so many Protestants are so so willing to change fall in line in a change in the way we think of the cross. I find it also very interesting that Bob Jones of Bob Jones University has been buying up as much bloody Baroque paintings portarying Counter Reformationist's thouths about Jesus's crucifixtion. Hmmmmmm? And I'm also concerned that, with images of suffering being pushed ahead of reserection are we not on the door step of another major change from teaching folks God *fearing* as opposed to a loving God... Just thinking out loud here... Still trying to figure out why so many people are flocking to see this movie??? Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Sorcha Date: 01 Mar 04 - 08:48 PM Actually, Ned, there is a LOT of non Biblical history out there about Jesus/Yeshua....you just have to look for it. I did....and it is interesting. Thanks, Sorefingers. Good Post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Rapparee Date: 01 Mar 04 - 09:41 PM One of many problems facing Biblical scholars, and in particular the scholars of the New Testament (NT), is that of contextual scholarship vs. strict reading of the NT. Contextual study attempts to view not only what is contained in the NT, but also determine how the NT fits within the context of the society as a whole. For example, Matthew has a sign tacked above the head of Yeshua which identifies his crime. In actuality, the cross used by the Romans had no upper member; it was shaped like a capital T rather than a lower case t (technically, it was a tau cross). Thus, no place to put the sign -- but the Romans DID include a placard in the procession to execution, which was usually carried by the condemned or was carried for him. A strict reading of Matthew would ignore what is actual, proven history. A contextual reading can give a new view of how the crucifixion actually looked and a new view of the procession of the condemned. It should also be remembered that the Romans weren't executing anyone out of the ordinary. To them, Yeshua of Nazareth was a condemned criminal, NOT the Son of God, a Redeemer, or anything special. Of course, he DID die more quickly than the crucified usually did, but that was nothing extraodinary. Oddly enough, the Protestant churches for many years were the hotbeds of contextual study and the Catholic strict readers. In recent years that has reversed itself (recent: the last 50 or so). Bobert, if you're concerned about the Catholic Church being a church not of Charity and Love, check out the documents of Vatican II. It's even surprising the me how changed the RC churches are since 1963. (I'm not talking about the Vatican, but of the churches and the people that attend them.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Sorcha Date: 01 Mar 04 - 09:57 PM Thanks, Rap... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 02 Mar 04 - 08:12 AM It may be an over generaliztion It most definitely is. Both ways. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Little Hawk Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:44 PM The Lord is everyone's God, sorefingers... But don't assume that my use of the word "Lord" necessarily means exactly what you or anyone else thinks it means...cos it probably differs in one way or another from that. We'd have to talk for a few hours to make sure we both knew exactly what the other one was talking about in the use of such a word as "Lord" or "God". At any rate, the Lord as I mean Lord is everyone's God. And that would be true even if there were NO religions or religious books or prophets for people to squabble over or claim as the ONE and ONLY. Religious exclusivity is like any other kind of exclusivity. Nasty and unloving. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Bobert Date: 02 Mar 04 - 10:59 PM Well there ya' go, L.H... Done messed up this thread... Aww, jus messin' wid ya'... But as fir me, as you know, Iz got this little thing going with Jesus... Ahhhh, I was hopin' this thread might find folks willin' to explore the ways in which "Jesus-on-the-Cross" has been portrayed, by whom and for what expected results... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: GUEST,pdc Date: 03 Mar 04 - 12:03 AM Someone upthread referred to Mel Gibson as an Australian. Gibson was born in the US, lived there for several years, then spent 12 years (I believe) in Australia before returning to the US. I don't have any more details, but anyone can google Gibson's bio. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Irish sergeant Date: 03 Mar 04 - 04:26 PM I haven't seen the movie and don't know if I will. I can't comment on it. If it only entertains, fine. I would hate to see it used as another "Protocols of Zion" Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Mar 04 - 05:27 PM The "Protocols of Zion" was a forgery presented as an authentic document. Hardly the same as a film drawn from pre-existing books which have been around a long time. I'm very suspicious of the "controversy" - seems to me like a very effective bit of public relations spin-doctoring. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Little Hawk Date: 03 Mar 04 - 06:05 PM Aha! Thanks for the correction, pdc. I thought Mel was born in Australia for some reason. I understand your connection with Jesus, Bobert, and I think it's a good one. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 04 Mar 04 - 08:39 AM LH I hope you are not thinking I dissaprove of other people's faith which is not like mine? Nothing could be more mistaken. I always believed even when yet not thinking as I now do, that each person should have the right to be what ever religion they chose and it remains none of anyother person's business. Besides how we relate to the devine is a personal thing. You may find it interesting to learn that many orthodox Jews today regard Yeshua as a greatly misunderstood Jewish mystic but nonetheless a Jew; however, they retreat from declaring him 'the' Messiach, as I finaly did after reading many texts about it and realizing that he could not have said anything to make me believe otherwise. Reported in the NT his own words ' Why do you call me good? ... There is none good but G_d..... ' and answering the question 'how shall we be saved' he is reported to have said ' keep G_d's laws '. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Mar 04 - 11:17 AM Good response, sorefingers. No, I was not necessarily assuming that...but I wondered. The thing that puts me off about almost all organized religion is their tendency to be exclusive and to deny the validity of other faiths. Serious spiritual study suggests that prophets often speak in metaphors, and that a statement must be considered in its unique context. For example: on one occasion Jesus says "He who is not with us is against us" (and fundamentalists can use that one to back up all kinds of horrible fanaticism)...while in another place he says the exact opposite of that. Why? Because it's in a different context. It doesn't necessarily indicate any contradiction in thinking on his part, it just means you have to look beyond a mere statement and look at the whole circumstance in which that statement occurred and why that statement was even being made. Now, when he says "Why do you call me good?" I think he is demonstrating the following principle: Personalities, as outwardly perceived by people are not where goodness springs from. Goodness springs from the greater source which the personality itself is a mere extension of. So, he was demonstrating an important principle, reminding the listener that the source of goodness lies deeper than the outer individual who may or may not be manifesting that goodness. He had to gear each statement to accomplish something useful for the person he was speaking directly to at the time. A given statement may be entirely useful to one person on one occasion, not useful at all to another on another occasion. This form of subtlety is lost on people who want to apply every literal word he ever said equally to every human being on the face of this Earth. It doesn't work that way...not in psychoanalysis, not in business, not in religion, not in any form of communication. The same goes for "rules". They must be modified intelligently to fit each situation...not just obeyed blindly as if a human being was a robot. But that demands much thought. And people are lazy. They don't want to think too hard. They would rather just blindly follow a set of rules. An unenlightened mob yells, "Just tell us what to do!" Some scoundrel then tells them, and they go and murder someone. An enlightened person thinks carefully, searches within, and waits until he knows clearly what is the right thing to do. Then he does it. For a truly enlightened person there are no rules written in stone...but there are useful general guidelines to be remembered and applied...such as "Love God, and love your neighbour as well as you love yourself". Strict, unbending lists of rules are for children. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 04 Mar 04 - 12:16 PM That's a wonderful answer, Little Hawk. Quoting anything out of context is always dangerous and too often is done to support the prejudice of the speaker. Just a couple other comments. Of course, the other side is situational ethics, which leaves a lot of room for "well, other people are doing it," attitudes, or "it's not that big a deal." Dishonesty IS a big deal. Even a little dishonesty. People have an unlimited capacity for laziness, whether it's strictly folowing moral teachings without thought to the particular cicumstances, or feeling all moral teachings are a matter of opinion. I had a roommate in college whose favorite response, when questioned about something he'd done, "Who's to say what's right or wrong?" He became a dentist, and I didn't communicate with him after college, but many years later there was an article in the nespaper about him. He was arrested for fondling the breasts of his female patients while they were under anesthesia. "Are you SURE I have to have anesthesia just to have my teeth cleaned?" The other thing I don't understand about how people perceive Jesus. Either he was the son of God, or he was the biggest liar, hypocrite and blasphemer who has ever lived. Seems like you take him or leave him. I guess the third alternative is, he said a lot of good things, for a fruitcake. Just wondering... I REALLY liked your posting, Little Hawk, and the other comments have no relation to you.. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Amos Date: 04 Mar 04 - 02:05 PM Either he was the son of God, or he was the biggest liar, hypocrite and blasphemer who has ever lived. Seems like you take him or leave him. I guess the third alternative is, he said a lot of good things, for a fruitcake. JErry: What is a "son" of God; and for that matter, how would you clarify the term God in a way that would make the word "son" have any meaning? IF you mean the unique manifestatiuon in an individual of Infinite Potential, just to try and use some neutral terms, then sure, Jesus qualifies right along with all the others who open themselves up to doing so. As for blasphemy, I kind of doubt that the power which brought the universe out of nothing is going to get really concerned about the shapes of sounds that pop out of several billion mouths on one planet at the far edge of a third rate Galaxy a long way from the center of a second-rate Cluster somewhere out in Gawdelpus Quadrant. I am not trying to jump on any beliefs, here, but the terminology that gets so liberally flung about makes my head ache and leaves me wondering what the ground referents are for some of the phenomena being discussed. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 04 Mar 04 - 03:04 PM The Lord's prayer - explains most of his message! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Irish sergeant Date: 04 Mar 04 - 03:54 PM McGrath of Harlow: Hello old friend. I am well aware that the protocols were a forgery. My point was that I hoped that the movie would not be used as an excuse for people to committ anti Semitic acts as the protocols were. Kindest regards, Neil |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 04 Mar 04 - 04:26 PM If people want to persecute other people they'll always find an excuse, but that's just a cover - to find the reason you have to look elsewhere. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Pope Declares Victory!!!.... From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 04 Mar 04 - 08:40 PM Hey, Amos: Of course you're right, the "Son of God" can be a rather confusing term. But, it's what Christ called himself. I can understand why the Pharisees were so incensed at Christ's claims if they didn't believe he was the Messiah.. All I'm really saying is that if one cannot believe that Christ is the Messiah, then I would think that one would have to think he was seriously delusional, if not a downright charlatan. Don't ask me how to explain the concept of the Trinity. It is WAYYYY beyond my comprehension. Jerry |
