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Subject: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: InOBU Date: 25 Feb 04 - 05:54 PM He comes from the more blood and biger fires makes a better movie school of the Arts, so why am I not surprised that the film is over the top and bad history and hence bad theology. He has Christ being beaten during a trail before the Sanhedren... wouldn't happen, in his day any corporal punishment in a Jewish court needs the unanimous concent of the judges, so a defendant being beaten during a trial is idoitic and a slight on Jewish tradition, beyond that, presenting Pontius Piolot as a kindly block is nonsence. Well, what's next Shoa by Mel and his dad? Cheers Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Feb 04 - 06:15 PM Having read a couple of reviews and gotten a general idea of what's waiting for me at the theatre, I think I'll skip this one. I have no particular desire to see someone getting brutally beaten for 2 hours, and there are other aspects of Jesus' life that are of far more interest to me...such as what he demonstrated and taught to people before he was arrested, and after he walked out of the tomb. I haven't seen anything lately by Mel Gibson that didn't revolt me. I'm afraid he and I are just on a different wavelength, that's all. What he finds compelling, I find either ludicrous or sickening. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Big Mick Date: 25 Feb 04 - 06:25 PM Yeah, LH, I am feeling the same. I might go see it, but I doubt it. I find the whole debate about "Anti Semitism/Realism" and the "Who was responsible, Jews or Romans?" to be pretty silly. The bible is fairly clear about all this. I already know what it looks like to die horribly. Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: maire-aine Date: 25 Feb 04 - 06:45 PM I don't plan to see this one either. Maryanne |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Amergin Date: 25 Feb 04 - 08:46 PM nah...this one doesn't interest me....the only religious movie that I ever saw and really liked was Life of Brian.... ;) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Bobert Date: 25 Feb 04 - 08:57 PM I didn't have to think twice about not wanting to see this movie... From what I have read, it is sensationalized to the point of being noythin' more than an indoctrination film... I don't think too many folks of Faith will be lining up to see it. Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: GUEST,Martin Gibson Date: 25 Feb 04 - 09:17 PM Unfortunately, many churches are renting outand reserving whole blocks of times for showings. Unfortunate that a whole new generation gets another taste of anti-semitism to dwell on. You have to be crazy to be a Jew and go see this movie. I won't go. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Bobert Date: 25 Feb 04 - 09:25 PM You also have to be crazy to be a Christain and go see this movie. BObert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Jerry Rasmussen Date: 25 Feb 04 - 09:37 PM I still love The Gospel According To St. Matthew by Paollini. Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Mudlark Date: 25 Feb 04 - 09:44 PM You have to be crazy to be a pagan and go see this movie. And what's the blame thing all about anyway...I thot it was all foretold, that all of The Life of Jesus had to be played out exactly as it was for his martyrdom to be persuasive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Amergin Date: 25 Feb 04 - 10:04 PM You have to be crazy to go and see that movie.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Don Firth Date: 25 Feb 04 - 10:40 PM Item of interest:— Lightning strikes twice from Sydney Morning HeraldI wonder if Someone was trying to tell someone something. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Bobert Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:17 PM I still love the Gospels........ And I love Jesus, my Lord.... But I don't love folks messin' wid none of 'em. Their stories are in our hearts and minds... No Mel Gibson neeeded to interpret, thank you... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Clinton Hammond Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:24 PM I might go see it... but I suspect I'll come away still thinking that "Last Temptation of Christ" was a better film... I think Mel directed ONE good movie... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: LadyJean Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:28 PM Many years ago, my mother made her way past an overzealous neighbor, a crowd chanting "Don't See This Blasphemous Movie", into the theater to see "The Last Temptation of Christ". She sat down in her seat and fell asleep. She snoozed through one of the most controversial movies of our time. Mel made a movie in Aramaic, a language spoken exclusively by Biblical scholars, with subtitles, featuring an excessively Catholic view of Christ's passion, that oozes blood. But! lucky man! his movie was deemed controversial, and got great green gobs of free publicity. I don't think I'll see "The Passion". If I want to see a gory religious movie, I'll rent Ben Hur. They've got a chariot race. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: GUEST Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:32 PM Seen it twice already...and will see at least twice again.
What a glorious way to celebrate Ash-Wednesday!
Basicly, it is a cinamagraphic visitation on "The Twelve Stations of the Cross."
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Walking Eagle Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:37 PM Think I'll pass on this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: GUEST,Martin Gibson Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:40 PM Think I'll piss on this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Feb 04 - 11:58 PM Leonard A. Schneider, aka, the great stand-up theologian and philosopher Lenny Bruce, spoke on the subject of the Jews killing Christ. He said that definitive proof of Jewish culpability had been provided by an uncle of his who had committed suicide in the basement. A note found pinned to his body said: I did it. It was me. Signed, Morty So there you have it....... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Feb 04 - 12:17 AM I am one who actually does fail to see all the hubbub here. In generally accepted historical terms, the story of Christ is kind of classic and you can substitute other rebellious groups against other power groups in different times and have a similar scene. It is more a story of power and have nots versus haves as anything else with only the names changed to affix guilt, an incredible waste of time, since any group in power or any with a dynamic leader will react in similar fashion, religion having virtually nothing to do with it. Let's see here.........You got this guy who does cool things for his own people and those that follow him. Needless to say they all love him regardless of the legality or illegality of his acts. Those in power see him as subversive and a criminal and try repeatedly to bust his chops. Finally the guy just goes that little bit too far and the big shots nail him and as an added bonus get one or more of his own to turn on him to save their own hides. Now is that the story of Christ or John Gotti? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Blackcatter Date: 26 Feb 04 - 12:19 AM Whyu anyone would think that depicting all the awful violence of Jesus' death would casue people to come back or move towards being a Christian is totally beyond me. But people feel that way. I think focusing on the last 12 hours of his life could be a powerful thing, but who seriously needs to see just how graphic a cruxifiction was? Does anyone not get the extreme pain that Jesus likely went through? Sheesh. We saw movies of the Holocaust victims - piled up bodies and the living dead being rehabilitated by the Allied Forces. That's plenty for me to understand how horrific that situation was. Why graphic violence seems so important for some people is really puzzling. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Amos Date: 26 Feb 04 - 12:34 AM I think it's the "numbnuts syndrome" -- you get deep-frozen enough in your own head, a good dose of violence is the only thing that will reach your sense of reality. Tragic state to be in. I think perpetuating the whole dramatization is a grotesque disservice to mankind. But that's just me... A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: ddw Date: 26 Feb 04 - 12:52 AM Jeez, 'Spaw, I read thru most of your post thinking you were gonna say Charles Manson. You can still catch me off guard with your rapier wit.... cheers, david |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: GUEST,Boab Date: 26 Feb 04 - 12:53 AM I probably wont see it ,for the same reason I have never been persuaded to watch "The Sound of Music"---I was fed up hearing about it beforehand![ "Climb Every Mountain", "Doe a deer" and "the Hills are Alive" have me wishing for a sound proof booth even now. I used to run a singing room in a local club, y'see---oh Gawd----!] |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: MAG Date: 26 Feb 04 - 02:26 AM I just ranted on The Passion of Pain (plus climax) on the Mel's Dad thread. Unfortunately the opening here was sold out weeks ago. A good friend who works in the H.S. will see it just so she can discuss it with the mobs of kids who have. THAT is a good reason. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Rustic Rebel Date: 26 Feb 04 - 04:14 AM I want to see this movie. I have always been intrigued by the stories of Jesus. Who is to say this one is any better or worse than any other. I have seen the movies that depict human suffering and pain and malicious treatment to others many times including Hiroshima and Schidlers List and all the horific movies that portray human suffering and in-human treatment to others. This movie I believe will just portray another point of view that people are a brutal spiecies that can't understand the concept of letting people live the life they choose, or fear that love will over-take the hatred and wars and it might be trying once again, like the other movies that depict human brutality, to point out a subject that is so hard to stomach, that it may have to make people realize if we don't like what we are seeing, to change our actions and not repeat history when we see our next chance of maybe seeing a christ figure or a person of extreme knowledge come into our lives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: GUEST Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:06 AM Gee, do I want to go see a schlock Christian propaganda film with obscene and graphic violence, that was made by one of the great schlock movie makers who is notorious for his overuse of gratuitous violence and pop history films? I'm not even tempted to see another bad Mel film, regardless of the subject matter. But since he decided he would do a religious propaganda film, rather than being wholly indifferent, I'm certain I'll avoid this baby like the plague on mankind that Mel's filmmaking truly is. I'm also wondering if we should just rename our local news channels the US Christian propaganda network, for over-coverage of this sucker during sweeps month. It is nauseating. I was sitting in a waiting room last night with a tv on the local news (all of our affiliates have been covering this movie every night on the news for over a week). The question they are asking is, given the level of violence in this film (I believe it has an NC 17 rating), should we take the kiddies along? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: InOBU Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:12 AM Frankly, I saw it, as someone who often talks about religion, (not only because I am currently on the committee of Ministry and Council of the NY Quaker Quarter) I thought it only fair to see a film I was going to say bad things about. Not to be completely negitive about the film, I'd have to say... hmmmm... I'll have to think about that for a while... Larry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: GUEST Date: 26 Feb 04 - 08:27 AM Another obscenity about this movie--the amount of free advertising it is getting. I will say this, the marketing of this film has been utterly brilliant. It has fed right into the right wing conservative obsession with injecting religious propaganda into broadcasting under the guise of journalism. Bloody fucking brilliant. To buy the kind of advertising this film is getting would cost the equivalent of the tv advertising bill for both parties in the US senate race in New York. I am shocked and in awe of the marketing of The Gospel of Mel. I suppose this will more than pay for his cult church compound he is currently building in the shadow of Hollywood, eh? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Charley Noble Date: 26 Feb 04 - 09:05 AM If they had a film team back then, I'd probably advocate for having each generation watch the edited documentary and hopefully learn some lessons about man's inhumanity to man and the willingness of an establishment to violently put down a challenge to its power. However, there's little reason to expect a Mel Gibson production to offer such insight. For Christ's sake, I wish they'd let him rest in peace. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Peace Date: 26 Feb 04 - 10:43 AM Fourteen stations of the cross. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Feb 04 - 11:40 AM Hey, Boab...right with ya! I consider suffering through "The Sound Of Music" to be like spending a couple of hours in one of the outlying regions of hell. :-) I think Mel's movie might be even worse, but I don't want to blow ten bucks finding out. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: GUEST Date: 26 Feb 04 - 11:46 AM The mindset of many people who like this movie is well summed up by a viewer quoted yesterday at AOL news: "I dare anybody to see this movie and not believe!" So it's official: Hollywood is now the indisputable factual source for Americans. And if, as reported above, Jim Caviezel (initials: JC. Coincidence?) can squirt lightning from his ears, what else may we expect of him in the near future? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: katlaughing Date: 26 Feb 04 - 12:15 PM Charley, I think that would have made him even more of a martyred "cause." katwillNotcontributetoMel'scoffers |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Tam the Bam (Nutter) Date: 26 Feb 04 - 12:53 PM I think I'll go a see this film so I'm crazy and a Born again Chritian. Tom Frae Saltcoats Scotland. I also saw the last temption of Christ as well and I like it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Strick Date: 26 Feb 04 - 01:00 PM "Mel made a movie in Aramaic, a language spoken exclusively by Biblical scholars" Don't be silly. Here's a whole nation delighted that for once they don't need subtitles for a Hollywood movie. Assyrians Hear Native Tongue in 'Passion' As I understand it, Babylonians adopted Aramaic from the Assyrians when they conquered their empire and set up their own. It surplanted Hebrew, a close relative, when the during the Babylonian exile. On the other hand everyone knows that even the Roman soldiers of the time would have spoken Greek not Latin. Mel screwed that one up. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Kim C Date: 26 Feb 04 - 01:09 PM I haven't seen it yet, but I will, either in the theater or at home on DVD. I look at it from the standpoint that the suffering of Jesus is very often glossed over in the churches. It's something even Christians don't really think about. I can only speak for myself, but I don't recall that I was ever taught that the Jews killed Jesus. I thought it was the Romans. Have I been wrong all these years? Whether you like Mel Gibson or not, consider that he's taking a gigantic career risk with this movie. How many of you would be willing to do that for something you believe? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Bev and Jerry Date: 26 Feb 04 - 02:06 PM Mel put 25 million of his own $$$ into this movie and it grossed 20 million on day one. May be a career risk but he'll make a bundle on it. Bev and Jerry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: GUEST Date: 26 Feb 04 - 02:44 PM The mere courage to take risks don't mean squat. Hitler for example took big career risks. Mel is nothing like Hitler, and I don't think he's antisemitic. But taking risks for what you believe in, regardless of what you believe in, is really overrated. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: GUEST,Different Date: 26 Feb 04 - 02:52 PM Especially when the pay off is in the 10s-100s of millions of dollars. Yeah, takes real courage to be The Mel, don't it? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: GUEST,Different Date: 26 Feb 04 - 02:53 PM Anyone who thinks Mel would have been penniless and homeless if his $$ million investment in the film disappeared, raise yer hands! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: GUEST,heric Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:01 PM . . . . squirt lightning from his ears. . . . |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Kim C Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:12 PM I didn't say he was risking his money - I said he was risking his CAREER. I think he is someone who makes movies because he Really Likes It, and if he were blackballed by the movie industry as a result of this project, I think that would be a worse blow than just losing a little money. And what about his wife, his kids? I don't think he was just thinking of Mel when he made the decision to make this movie. I'm also surprised that so many of you are making up your minds without even seeing the movie. That's just what the ultra-conservative Christians did with The Last Temptation of Christ. If it were about someone other than Jesus, would your opinions be different? (And by the way, Hitler's risks DID end his career.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Strick Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:17 PM "But taking risks for what you believe in, regardless of what you believe in, is really overrated." Still beats the hell out of waffling when what you believe in seems like too big a risk. There's a lot more of that than the other. Can't say what percentage of Mel's fortune is tied up in this movie, but it was a risk. Anyone remember how Sam Clemens bankrupted himself investing in typesetting equipment other other nonsense? I doubt Mel would have missed many meals, but he wouldn't have been their first celebrity to lose everything they own and have to start over. And you can't judge a risk by the fact that it appears to have paid off. That has nothing to do with what it was like to have to make the decision and have to live through all it's consequences before it paid off. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Pseudolus Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:32 PM I'll be seeing the movie at some point but I'm not rushing to be the first. Until then, I don't think I'll offer an opinion on the movie or Mel Gibson's decisions. Seems funny though to see the typical Mudcat discussion going on. It's not enough to simply state your opinion...you have to put down or call crazy anyone who may differ from that opinion...sad Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Feb 04 - 03:59 PM Don't take it all that seriously, Kim. I have to decide before every movie that comes out whether I would probably enjoy it and whether it would be worth going to see or not. That's mostly why I read movie reviews and listen to word of mouth comment...so I can decide whether or not to risk my ten bucks and my time on a particular movie. On that basis, I went to see the following movies recently: LOTR-Return of the King, The Last Samurai, Cold Mountain, Brother Bear, the Disney one about the little fish, Pirates of the Caribbean, Master & Commander. They all turned out to be enjoyable and quite good as far as I was concerned. I don't think I'd enjoy this latest movie of Mel Gibson's, based on what I've heard about it. That's it, period. Some others might enjoy it just fine. The idea of a movie about Jesus doesn't offend me in the least, I like Jesus and I believe in his message and teaching. I would enjoy seeing "The Gospel of John" anytime, but haven't as yet, because it hasn't shown in any local theatre here. I am unconcerned about the anti-semitism issue (I can't imagine how anyone could tell the whole story of Jesus without someone finding what they choose to call anti-semitism in it...given the fact that a whole lot of Jewish people wanted him crucified at the time, and got their wish...but how does that implicate all Jews then and now??? As far as I'm concerned it doesn't.) What does concern me is simply this: I don't think I would enjoy sitting through 2 hours of a man being tortured and beaten to a pulp. It just doesn't appeal to me. It is not needed in order to increase my faith. If it increases someone else's faith, well that's okay for them. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Kim C Date: 26 Feb 04 - 04:30 PM That is a good point, LH. Of the people I have talked to who have seen the movie already, no one has said they "enjoyed" it. I don't think it's that sort of a movie. Obviously anyone who would be disturbed by graphic scenes of violence probably shouldn't see it. This may not be a good analogy, and if so, then I apologize. But let's talk about Saving Private Ryan for just a second. Here's a pretty graphic and violent movie. It was hailed by the critics for its realistic, unsanitized depictions of the horrors of war. The public loved it. It won awards. It made a pile of money. And I don't remember hearing anyone fretting that it would foment anti-German sentiment, or that the moviemakers were schlocky or greedy or anything like that. Not all movies are purely for entertainment. I think it's very interesting that this movie has generated so much public discussion. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Hollowfox Date: 26 Feb 04 - 05:25 PM Bobert, regarding your last post (yesterday)...God Bless Ya!! I recall my father telling a story years ago to the effect that there was talk in the 1920's of filming the life of Jesus for the silent screen. Someone said seriously that the best man for the leading role would be Charlie Chaplain because he was an athiest and a Jew. I don't know whether the story is true, and I don't know if he was either a Jew or an athiest, but it would have been interesting to see Chaplin in a non-comic part. I bet he could have pulled it off. As for Mel movies..well, there was that nice chain mail outfit in one of the Mad Max movies. And how could you not enjoy his onscreen draw-&-quartering in Braveheart? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Charley Noble Date: 26 Feb 04 - 05:30 PM I wasn't raised in any church and thus missed out on the opportunity of rejecting a religion. I do have a historical interest in rabble rousers but from what I've read about this movie, betrayal and execution is the focus. I'm sure a whole lot of people will be impressed with this movie and I'd hardly advocate censorship to "protect" them from it. Now with regards to the Old Gods, I do have personal knowledge of their power from my work in Ethiopia in the early 1960's and I do wonder from time to time how they are faring: Another time in a land so fair, With sacred groves in mountain air, I'd ride my horse down a village green, Round houses lined each side. Where the Thunder God still reigned supreme, And people danced upon the green; They offered gifts to the temple priest, And drank their honey wine. But now, where have the Old Gods gone? Do the sacred groves still ring with chants and song? Perhaps, I'll journey once again, Listen in the evening wind, And pour a horn of honey wine At the foot of some old tree. Salam, Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: BS: Just saw Mel's film... From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Feb 04 - 05:47 PM Yeah, Kim, "Saving Private Ryan" is an interesting case to compare, all right. I went to see it because I'm very interested in war history, and it seemed to be a pretty accurate film. There was one thing in it that was not too accurate, and it bugged me...namely, the general incompetence of the German troops in the film (following the initial landing scene...they were fairly competent in that one). The Germans shown in the film continually exposed themselves to heavy losses by making what I would call pretty poor tactical moves. A real German assault unit would likely have done a lot better in attacking Ryan's company at the bridge, and not lost its tanks so carelessly. This clumsiness was anything but typical of the German army in World War II...although it did happen on occasion. And when a wall falls down between a bunch of Germans and a bunch of American G.I.'s...and they all panic and start shooting...how is it that only the Germans get shot? Are Americans really that much better at the "quick draw"? This is comic book stuff, as far as I'm concerned. I was probably one of the few moviegoers in North America who had that particular objection to the movie, but it's nitpicking. In general, I thought it was a pretty good film. Somebody ought to make a movie about the Canadians or the Australians or the New Zealanders in WWII for a change. - LH |
