Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs

Subject: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 03:32 PM

I gather as Parliament debated Iraq the Music Police of North Lincs Council had other more sinister targets to consider and raided for the second week running, the Sloop at Barton. They had been the week before and "advised" the setting up of a folk club as a private club. This was done but the return visit disapproved the curtained off area and demanded a separate room. Attempts are being made with the Landlord to satisfy these demands. Maybe there are weapons of mass destruction around including the deadly piano accordian and maybe even the more leathal mandolin!

It is hoped to get this years old session going again next week but fear the arrival of an armoured personnel carrier from Scunthorpe!

Remember this - support the campaign to keep acoustic music away from licensing - make life hellish for your MP and make sure nothig slips under the smokescreen of war!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 03:33 PM

I should have added that at last nights raid there were about 10 musicians and one other regular watching television in another bar!

Nice to now the council supports small pubs and businesses!!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:00 PM

bastards!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:14 PM

this council/goverment is a load of shit, i have been to this session loads of times, and usually there is only the folk people there, and it is in the middle of nowhere, so it can't be bothering any neighbours.anyway you cant even hear the music outside the pub anyway, , why cant these arseholes just piss off and mind there own bisiness?

john

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: breezy
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:23 PM

arrange with the landlord to use the area for a private party.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 04:31 PM

And get jobsworth flung out - not a guest at the party!

Hope local press will be there next week when we hold session in private room - or musicians peering out from behind curtain!!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The Shambles
Date: 19 Mar 03 - 05:37 PM

Perhaps it could be pointed out to the police that there is case-law under the current law that does make a distinction between paid 'performers' and pub customers 'solacing themselves with the music'?

As the distinction is something the new legislation is determined to change, perhaps we should all be fighting to establish it now, a little harder, rather than just waiting for the new law to wipe this vital distnction away?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,ET
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 02:09 AM

Could all local players think about going to the Sloop next week. Approaches are continuing about forming a "folk club" and I will keep you posted here.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: KJ
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:22 AM

We'll be there. I like the concept of comforting oneself with music & what a better place to do it in a pub where one has access to other forms of 'solace'. I'm afraid someone has got it in for 'The Sloop', & yes the absentee landlord is a b*****d by all accounts, but the present tenants are working hard to keep the place going & have been very welcoming, so it seems very unfair. Its a shame its not the middle of summer as we could have all played outside on the pavement, entering the pub for previously mentioned 'solace'. I wonder what laws we'd break then? Breathing probably!!!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:51 AM

Yes, a mass trespass seems like a good idea - particularly if you can get the press there. I'll do my utmost to be at the Sloop next week.

Fortunately for us in Beverley the East Riding seem to be much more laisez faire in their attitude although we are only a few miles away from Barton. I'd hate to think what the Lincs officers would make of the Folk Festival Fringe since only the Foresters and the Sun have music licences!!

Roger

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:56 AM

Where is Barton, I've tried to look it up on streetmap uk, but although it has numerous Bartons none is in Lincolnshire etc a Barton Cliff near South Ferriby.
I think I would like to take part in a mass sing-a-round next Tuesday

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:59 AM

Forget previous thread, that would be Barton Upon Humber, would it.
You'll have to excuse a Lancashire Lad for not knowing his geography of the East Side of the Pennines !!!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 06:31 AM

Count me in. Beverley muso's should maybe arrange to share a car? Any offers? This could be fun!!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:16 AM

Avoid advertising PTH there or they'll probably send in RSPCA inspectors as well !

Best of luck with it - It's too far for me to drive to from SE London.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:47 AM

Well good luck. I'm not convinced the protest will do any good though. I think once these mindless idiots get a bee in thier bonnet, that's it and the law quite unfairly is on there side. Odds are they will just dig there heels in more firmly.

That said, I quite like the idea of giving them a little extra hassle as long as the pub doesn't get into trouble. What day of the week is it? I've toyed with idea of persuading Pip up there for a while but it's a fair journey from North Norfolk.

If I did make it, in addition to my usual WMD, the banjo, I will make a special effort and include the even more deadly melodeon in case of heavy conflict. Pip is quite leathal on the piano, an excellent weapon if you can lure an unsuspecting group of people into a trap but lacking in portability and quite unsuitable for this type of short sharp attack.

Jon

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:52 AM

Its on Tuesday Jon.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:53 AM

We need MCFat for a real weapon of Mass destruction

R

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Skipjack K8
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 07:55 AM

Tuesday night, Jon. I'm in Brizzle all day, so have got to hot foot it to get a seat at the Sloop.


Eric, should we try and get some press rounded up for our 'spectacular'?

Perhaps we should melt down our musical metal parts for the war effort?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:06 AM

I could take one passenger but my little fiat punto will not even take my guitar in the boot so it has to go on the back seat - anyone got a volv estate?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:34 AM

I have got an idea=if the PEL people give us any hassle , we should tie them up and throw things at them, like tomatoes and hamster shit etc until they agree to stop hassling folkies,[we make them sign something, so they cant change there minds later), if they domt sign it, we just throw them in the river, and if anybody asks what happened to them, we just say that they jumped.john

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:36 AM

I got another idea, we should hit them with sticks, if they dont go away, we burn them on a big bonfire.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:47 AM

It's a well reported fact that MC Fat is no more, in fact I witnessed the disposal of his ashes on Saturday last. I would post the piccys but my steam driving computer won't have it

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:59 AM

LOL John. I think we would be better demonstrating how peacful we really are though.

Jon

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:03 AM

Raggytash

There must be a ghost in the machine then because I had an email from MC this morning

R

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:07 AM

I reckon your'e probably right Jon, it was only an idea!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:29 AM

Well good luck. I'm not convinced the protest will do any good though. I think once these mindless idiots get a bee in thier bonnet, that's it and the law quite unfairly is on there side.

If these customers are unpaid and making music for their own ammusement, with the licesee's permission, the current law is not in fact on the side of the local authority.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From:
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:37 AM

'twould be difficult for me to get across and back, but I'll give it a go.

What happens exactly when the music police attend the scene?

An outline to be prepared for any outcome would be good.

Have you contacted local/national papers? They might see it a a bit of copy to fill up with when they are not reporting "the war".

Any Cat's solicitors? If someone can come up with hard copy, chapter and verse of the current law then there will be egg on the faces of the weapons inspectors.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:40 AM

Shambles, you seem more convinced than me about local authorities...

If you had worded your comment,

If these customers are unpaid and making music for their own ammusement, with the licesee's permission, the current law is not in fact on the side of the local community.

I would be in complete agreement.

Jon

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 10:42 AM

i still cant do that slanted writing, but ETV said
"What happens when music police turn up?"
We tie them up, and threw things at them, then chuck them in the river, so make sure you bring some string with you.john

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: ET
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:06 AM

Thanks for all these responses. Have told Laurie Collingwood who organises this session that supporters will turn up. John Bennet, professional busker with walking stick, has been in touch with the local paper. Will talk to him tonight to see if the landlord has hung a door on the room to the left as you go in. Its a bit small but ok. When you want a drink you will have to open the door and rush to the bar in case the one local is upset by the music coming out!

There will be a formal club I think, with minutes, an agenda, points of order so there may not be much time for playing!!!!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Pied Piper
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 11:41 AM

I'm confused. Is there going to be a session at the Sloop this Tuesday that I can attend to show solidarity, or is it a Folk club?
PP

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:05 PM

And who's bringing the hamster shit?

BJ

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:05 PM

Sir Roger that would be his hologram who was present when his ashed were finally disposed of on Saturday, he expressed his gratitude at the most moving ceremony. I also have photos of the hologram at the ceremony, but as I said earlier my computer is steam driven and I cannot email piccys to the web

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The Shambles
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:25 PM

Hamish Birchall
Case law, which forms part of Robin Allen's opinion, determines that between 1899 and 1961 two musicians (or possibly more) could regularly play a pub piano and sing for their own amusement, unpaid, and this was not regarded as a licensable public entertainment (Brearley v Morley, 1899). The Licensing Bill would, of course, render both the activity and the piano a criminal offence unless licensed.

The DCMS
This point is disingenuous. In 1899, the courts held that impromptu performances by customers were not licensable, but performances given by a customer or any musician "for a consideration" were licensable. The Report of the Royal Commission on Licensing (England and Wales) 1929 – 1931 (paragraph 249) confirmed this interpretation of the law. Working musicians were therefore not exempted as claimed. The "two in a bar rule" was introduced by the Licensing Act 1964.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Banjoman
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 12:25 PM

Nil DESPERANDUM Carborundum etc - don't let the Bastards drive you down. I wish I was near enough to be there as I love a good fight against silly laws and the even stupider people who try to enforce them. Reminds me of an incident a few years ago when our local council made a substantial grant to help in running a local Folk FestivAl. On the first evening, the same councils environmental health officer arrived and promptly ordered the closure of most of the venues. We ignored her and enjoyed the inter departmental fight which ensued.
It would be great if everyone attending was arrested and subsequently appeared in court en masse - the press would have a field day.

Best of luck - keep us informed of any developments

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: KJ
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 01:35 PM

Hey up folks, before we all go rushing in, we ought to have a word with the landlord/landlady & get their permission. It will be on their heads that the mightily unfair arm of the law will come crashing down. Colin & I can have a saunter down tonight & talk to them if no-one has already done it.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Bloke in the corner
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 03:37 PM

Well, what a hornet's nest we stirred up! And how shameful it is that these people feel they have the right to jeopardise a tradition stretching back centuries, if not millennia. They simply don't have the moral right to stop unpaid accoustic instrumentalists from playing in a pub where they have permission and full support of the landlord. Sod them, they MUSTN'T win!
Pid Piper, we have had a SESSION at the Sloop for over five years, every Tuesday. It's NOT a folk club, no stars, no cliques and no-one hogging the limelight, just a group of friends and welcome visitors doing just about the only thing that separates us from the other animals - making music for pleasure! All are welcome, be part of a happy and peaceful (and in some cases talented) group. The business about the folk club is that we may HAVE to call ourselves a folk club, maybe even sign in etc. But we will NOT be spending valuable drinking & playing time talking about rules etc. Perhaps slagging off the music police, even giving interviews to the press.
And Eric, I'm NOT the organiser. There isn't one. The essence of the club is that it is an anarchic gathering without bosses or anyone telling you what to do. Just play bloody folk music!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: ET
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 05:39 PM

well said bloke in the corner. Thats your authority - you have the corner seat and as you say thats as far as it is controlled.   Went to a meeting tonight at Hull City Council Licensing and health and safety man there. Both described the new act as a dogs breakfast - and there are the ones supposedly enforcing the thing.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Bloke in the corner
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 06:47 PM

Very pleased to be able to report that I have talked to the landlord at the Sloop. He will be delighted to welcome all folkies next Tuesday, starting arond 8.30, I've no doubt the usual pizza/sausage/chips or whatever will be offered, no doubt also the music police will be there, so we will have our own (nicely bare for the acoustics) room. Tony is of course on our side, the landlady was visibly upset when this nastiness happened on Tuesday, just imagine what would happen just about anywhere else in the world if musicians playing acoustic music were threatened! Imagine if it were Galway or Connemara! They WOULD chuck the buggers in the nearest large body of water!
But let's not be vindictive, our love of the oral music tradition is what matters, all the regulars would be delighted to have a packed session next Tuesday, and thank all visitors in advance for their support. This week Barton, next week....?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: smallpiper
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 08:44 PM

Barton! Me an Nik Nak will be there I might even bring me war pipes!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Bassic
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:10 PM

Sounds SCUD to me Smallpiper!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Bassic
Date: 20 Mar 03 - 09:12 PM

This is Barton on Tigris we are talking about isnt it?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,ossonflags
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:14 AM

Wonderfull!!!!!!!!!!

Me and Mrs.Ossonflags will be there.

If anyone wants a lift from 'ull,there are five spare seats going in the Punchmobile.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: ET
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:43 AM

The landlord Tony, is adding a door to the small room to the left this weekend. All local folkies commanded to attend Next Tuesday. Sloop is in Barton on Humber - down the hill to town, turn left, round to the right, down to the junction and then left. River on right hand side, Sloop on left down road.

If enforcement police from Council turns up should be good with 25 musicians jammed in a room designed for 10.....all signed in and pretending to be a club.....listening to why she has taken it into her head to defy Home Office Guidance and enforce this nonesense, which is recognised as such by even Labour MPs who have signed EDM's etc

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:46 AM

Doesn't sound as though your session is much different from the one in the Cricketers at Greenwich, which was closed down by the Music Police until they got a PEL which cost them about £350. That only covers the pub for two sessions a week though - it would cost them something like £1,400 to have one for music every night.

Strange isn't it, the PEL is supposed to be to ensure that the premises are safe for entertainment and that it doesn't cause a nuisance - yet by paying more money the pub suddenly becomes "safe" for more evenings a week.

I wish you luck, but if your local council are like Greenwich and see PELs as a sort of entertainment tax way of making extra money, they'll threaten the landlord with legal action which he can't afford.

Incidently, I think you'll find that most "Music Police" are paid on a commission basis in the same way as the PRS snoopers were.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:41 AM

If the landlord did wish to continue without the pretence of the session being a private club, the fine would only be payable if they lost. Most licencees stop, obtain the PEL or plead guilty.

There is more than a possibilty, that this licensee could win, if they maintain that it is not licensable public entertainment and the participants are not 'performers'.

There is more than a chance that the authority would back off, if they were faced with proving the event was licensable, especially with good local support and media coverage.

Have the local councillors been approached?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:45 AM

Go on then, Rog.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:40 AM

the Wombat & I had intended coming over on Tuesday, subject to her dental appointments ............will there be room ?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: ET
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:49 AM

In an epistle from DCMS dated MArch 2003 they say "in 1899 the courts held that impromptu performances by customers were not licensable, but performances given by a customer or any musician "for a consideration" were licensable. The report of the Royal Commission on Licensing (England and Wales) 1929-1931 (para 249) confirmed this interpretation of the law. Working musicians were not therefore exempted as claimed. The 2 in a bar rle was introduced by the licensing act 1964. The new bill abolishes this but introduces new arrangements whereby any pub may obtain permission to stage live musical events at no extra cost when obtaining permission to sell alchohol.

Translated into English I think this means that performances that are impromptu, by the performers, for themselves and without payment or free beer are not caught by the PEL provisions. I have many copies of this 6 page document issued by DCMS and will hand them out.

I think the point about telling councillors is a good one. I was at a meeting of another bigger council last night and their licensing and safety officers described the new bill as a "real dogs breakfast" as originally ste up but now a regurgitated mess!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:05 AM

ET, Im not sure how easy it is to claim that the same people meeting the same night in the same venue each week is impromptu. In this case, given the announcement here now (not to mention past mentions of the Sloop, e.g here), I think that position would be immpossible or at a minimum dangerous if anyone happened to get wind of Mudcat.

Jon