Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: IanC
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:10 AM

There's a question of interpretation here. As far as the legal documents go, it is the music which appears to be being described as impromptu not the event. I know that some local councils interpret it to mean the latter (they use advertising to "prove" it's not) but, presumably, the vast majority who don't involve themselves in this fact-twiddling are interpreting it in the same way I am.

:-)

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 08:21 AM

Thanks for the clarification Ian. Putting music as the critera makes a big difference!

Jon

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: daithi
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 09:44 AM

Surely the isuue of Payment is crucial to whether the event is licensable or not? From the above postings it seems to me that this is the best defence - any way of getting chapter and verse on this ready for Tuesday?
Also the involvement of local(opposition ) councillors, is good too - but only if we convince them that we have a case.
the media might be sympathetic anyway...sounds like a good case to launch a campaign "SOS - Save Our Session".
Dáithí

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From:
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 10:19 AM

Tony, for the licencee, Jill,has promised to attach a door tomorrow to seal us in. Those of us who are already members are ok to turn up. Those who are new have to sign in 48hrs before. Except that any muso who knows any member can sign in as a visitor the first night to stay and play. The bitch from the music police seemed not to be worried about a quid entrance(that would be raffled ), but she was anxious that no unknown member of the public should get in and even find it entertaining.
                                  JB

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:15 AM

She may well be a bitch but you will succeed in upsetting her far in the long term more by remaining cool, calm and collected and above all reasobable. If you loose your rag she will feel "justified" in her actions.
Reminds me of a Jeremy Taylor song............Jobsworth, jobsworth it's more than me jobs worth .................I might just resurrect that in her honour in time for Tuesday

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The Shambles
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:19 AM

It is important to note that the word 'impromptu' does not appear in the case law in question. The event was a regular one and the crucial factor which decided the event was not public entertainment was that the customers making music were not paid.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Oaklet
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 01:48 PM

John Bennet. Hello. Why don't we just heavily disguise the thing so that it appears NOT to be entertaining to members of the public. I am prepared to bring my violin if you think that this approach might work. Get Daithi to bring one of his beautiful accomplices to stretch the truth just a little bit and scream over and over again that it sounds really, really bad and must stop. Then the buggers would be on the ropes.

And don't call my aunty Peg from North Lincs Trading Standards Council a bitch or I'll do a satirical mime about you, you varmint.

I'd forgotten what a simple please typing this rubbish can be. Marvelous9.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Hamish Birchall
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:53 AM

'Impromptu' is not the test

Like much else in the DCMS leaflets, their comment about the case law from 1899 is misleading. The law report in question (Brearley v Morley, 1899, 2 QB 121]makes it quite clear that the performances were not impromptu. They were planned, taking place 'on Saturdays, and sometimes on Fridays'. The initial prosecution was undertaken in the knowledge that the 'performers' were unpaid. The test at that time was not simply whether performers were paid; it was also whether the landlord 'provided' the entertainment. The reason the conviction was quashed on appeal was that the landlord was found NOT to have provided the entertainment. He merely allowed customers to use a piano in a bar for their own amusement.

It is also worth pointing out that the Government's Licensing Bill for the first time makes the provision of a piano for public use a criminal offence, unless licensed.

Hamish Birchall
Musicians' Union adviser - PEL reform

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: ET
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 02:40 PM

Grateful for all this. Could I point out that the "club room" is not very big. Bring instruments that don't take much space - whistles ok, but trombones out. Fiddles only if they don't jump about Mr O.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:11 PM

Can I just point out that it is slightly unfair to call the woman from the council a bitch. She did not make the law. Yes she may be a 'jobsworth' but if she doesn't do her job, she would probably be unemployed & there's not many of us would like to be that with expenses such as mortgages, rent, food, utility bills...all those little luxuries. What I would like to know is who complained/reported us to the council in the first place?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Oaklet
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:18 PM

It was Colin Thompson.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:31 PM

Looking for people to blame and name-calling will not really help anyone much. As for the lady inquestion doing her job, it is a question of ensuring that she does it properly. It is her job to carry out the policy of her council - not to make it.

As has been pointed out, even the licensing law does not support the interpretation that the lady is using and it is also incompatible with the HRA.

The best approach is to contact (sensible) local councillors and inform them of the true legal position and to get them to change their policy and call the dogs off.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,KT
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 04:34 PM

Ver good Dave.anyway, it looks like won't be allowed in as he doesn't play a small instrument!!!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:29 PM

heloo, woh is colin tomson, oaklet-find out wgho he is, and thow some thing at him, like tomatoes or ornges or hamster shit etc, and serves him right.john

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:36 PM

anyway, this new law is a big load of shit, why should youu haf to give youre name and a dress if you like to sing a flok song or polay intrunment, and sign things, big load of shit.goverment etc shouls do good things like help people etc, like build hospitalks and help old people, and give more money to scools and things like that. and not make trouble, ban music and making war etc, they are a big load of shit,.thisd is my ipimion.john

john

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 07:15 PM

John, you shouldn't. The most sensible system with regards to pubs IMO would be closer to the old one but without the need for a PEL at all. The landlord could/should convince magistrates that (s)he is responsable enough to run a licenced premisis. If (she) is responsable enough, it shoul be up to them to decide what is suitable for their premisis.

It is quite reasonable to back these requirements up with reasonable (and I believe to the most extent existing) laws, perhaps limiting the level of noise on a premisis, setting a maximum safe number of people of the premisis, expecting the licensee should ensure reasonable behaviour within and maybe outside his premisis, etc. Such measures should be applied equally and live entertainment should not be singled out especially when there are examples such as loud jukeboxes and wide screen tv far more likely to cause problems bt are exempt.

I believe this law, amongst other things demonstrates a clear case of favouritism towards the activities that put money into the pockets of those who already have money and am quite sick that a Labour government should have dreamed them up.

Jon

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 08:14 PM

I thgibk you are exactly right Guest, i voted for this goverment, because i thought they would be good, and i thouhht they would be better than the conservative people, but now i think they are shit, folk music is my main hobby and they are tryting to ban it and give too many rules etc, if a few people go to pub and sing and play music, then so what, that is not dangerous! and they like to make war and kill people, already about more than a dozen english men got killed in this iraq war, this goverment is fucking stupid and really piss me off.ps i wonmt vot for them againd.john

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Ian Darby
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 11:13 PM

The local coppers are probably going up the wall.

They must have better things to do than persecute beer drinking herberts for playing a few tunes.

Regarding weapons of mass distraction, may I recommend bhodrans & banjos in the front line, and when the 'Folk Police' make their entrance you should all start humming 'Keep The Home Fires Burning, White Cliffs of Dover, etc,' to a solitary harmonica accompaniment

(They can't do you for humming.)

Failing this, anything else by Vera Lynn would do.

Has the world gone completely mad?

The very best of luck to you....

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: ET
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:18 AM

The colourful comments about New Labour are interesting. Would musician have voted for them if it had been known they would hve so threatened our cultural rights and innocent interests? I wonder if any of the cannon fodder MPs realise what this bill will do to country pubs, to traditional music etc. If they did they might be concerned. Essential they all get to know!!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 07:43 AM

ET, I'd decided I didn't like New Labour before the last election. It came up at the time I was moving to North Norfolk from Wales. I voted Plaid Cymru. Round here, it is very Conservative and Lib Dem (currently in power) form the only serious opposition. I've got way off topic here... but I wish John Smith was still alive.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Oaklet
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 10:18 AM

Anyway, I have just spoken to Jill (landlady of the Sloop) who asked me to remind all those planning to attend the mass-action on Tuesday that they will have to backdate their membership by 48 hours to gain entry to the private room set aside for the "Mother of all Sessions" on Tuesday. If the Assistant Licensing Officer is there (Jill will know) then this will not be possible. Prepare for a bit of an administrative drag on Tuesday, but it could be a bit of a landmark evening. Jill is ringing the ALO tomorrow to discuss the acceptability of the frosted glass in the new door that has been added to the room. It is important that the public cannot see the musicians. Having seen Bloke-in-the Corner, I understand why.

To anyone who has encountered a licensee who doesn't give a flying f*uck about music sessions, I think that Jill should be praised for entering into the spirit if the thing. I was quite moved when she explained that she was angered to tears by last week's visit, and it must have been very tempting to say b*ollocks to it and expel the aerophonists, bangers, twangers, blowers, scrapers and dirge-traffickers in favour of a quiet life.

Anyone travelling from afar can stay at Bloke-in-the-Corner's house for as long as they want. Or Banjo-Flower's house come to that, as I have his keys.

9

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 10:32 AM

New Labour=New Load of Shit.john

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 04:26 PM

Hi Oakleaf & fellow Sloopers(?) I shall be with you in spirit on Tuesday but unfortunately I can't be there in person due to work commitments

Gerry

P.S Oakleaf can I have my keys back as I can't get in (but you can keep the fun fur jacket)

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,KJ
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 07:35 PM

If we post a list of those coming on Tuesday,then I can get 'em in the 'membership' book & print cards to be collected on arrival. Might cut down on some of the admin. After all we're there to attempt to play music.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 02:09 AM

You can put my name on the list.

Doug C

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 03:32 AM

Please add Nick & Christine Scaife to the membership list, all being well we will be through on Tuesday

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 05:11 AM

I was just an ordinary Englishman, until I got me uniform and hat...!

Karen, please add Peter Dean to the list. Thankyou. Looking forward to the event.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,ossonflags
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:41 AM

I have heard you sing that a time or twenty axeman!!!!!!!!

Karen,please add Mick and Mary McGarry to your membership list.

KEEP MUSIC LIVE.........!!!!!!

See you Tuesday (although not a lot of time to practise)

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 10:56 AM

Is there any spare seats left in the punchmobile Mick?
KJ-Please add me to your list as well, 9John Evans).

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: ET
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 11:50 AM

Does anyone know Shuberts Impromptu in B flat. Playing that might satisfy the need for impromptu music.

Spoke to BBC Look North today. They are considering whether of not to attend. Thanks to Gregg for introduc

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Pied Piper
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:02 PM

I'm not shore I can make it but good luck.

"It's because o't Magna charter what were signed by't Barrons of old,
that we English can do what we want to; as long as we do what we're told"

PP

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 12:30 PM

You'll find me at the turnstile at the zoo,
Or outside the Roxy marshalling the queue.
If you turn up late, when I'm on the gate,
Don't expect me to let me through........

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Trevor Gilson
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 03:06 PM

Can we please get rid of this idea that Council Officers are 'only doing their duty' when these things happen. As 'Shambles' and Hamish have pointed out, the law is at best ambiguous and a considered legal opinion is that a 'proper' Court Case would very probably go against the Council, so long as the musicians were unpaid and also not specifically invited in by the licensee. Unfortunately a Magistrates Court would most likely uphold the Council rather than the Law, being lay people and frightened to express a legal opinion in the face of the contrary opinion expressed by a Council Solicitor. Only in a Higher Court or at Appeal is a valid outcome likely - note the recent case of R (Ashbrook) v East Sussex County Council which had to go to Appeal (I am sure you saw the pictures of Kate Ashbrook wielding the giant snips preparatory to opening up the footpath on which the Council had so long deferred action, in the face of criminal activity culminating in manslaughter).

Sadly, both Shambles and I believe we have been lied to when it suited a Council Officer's purposes to do so. We are not sure some of them understand what truth is.
Can we please get rid of this idea that Council Officers are 'only doing their duty' when these things happen. As 'Shambles' and Hamish have pointed out, the law is at best ambiguous and a considered legal opinion is that a 'proper' Court Case would very probably go against the Council, so long as the musicians were unpaid and also not specifically invited in by the licensee. Unfortunately a Magistrates Court would most likely uphold the Council rather than the Law, being lay people and frightened to express a legal opinion in the face of the contrary opinion expressed by a Council Solicitor. Only in a Higher Court or at Appeal is a valid outcome likely - note the recent case of R (Ashbrook) v East Sussex County Council which had to go to Appeal (I am sure you saw the pictures of Kate Ashbrook wielding the giant snips preparatory to opening up the footpath on which the Council had so long deferred action, in the face of criminal activity culminating in manslaughter).

Sadly, both Shambles and I believe we have been lied to when it suited a Council Officer's purposes to do so. We are not sure some of them understand what truth is.
[e-mail]
web.onetel.net.uk/~trevorgilson

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: ET
Date: 24 Mar 03 - 05:04 PM

Interesting and I agree, its not a question of jobsworth doing their duty. Usually they act on complaints, often from other Pubs that have spent money on PELs. The other problem is that councils don't go for musicians, they go for the Landlord. In this case an absent landlord so they would go for the licensee, who is an employee and not in a position to risk anything or spend money. And often in a prosecution in a magistrates court only the council has unlimited funds and a solicitor, not the licensee. And since the case can only be heard before Magistrates there is no precendent set for other courts. Appeals on a point of law are by way of case stated to the high court. It needs someone with both conviction and money to take this. This is why local authorities, who have no convictions, other than that of the licensee, but plenty of money, take nonesense like, 2 then 2 then 2 equals 6 in a bar.

The idea of tomorrow is to obtain some good publicity by being jammed in a small room as a club, playing to ourselves in a way that cannot be enjoyed by the rest of the pub, usually a bloke watching TV in a far room anyway. BBC considering whether to send a camera man but not rung back to say if they will or not. they would if they were certain PEL person was turning up!

The issue of entertaining others has already been raised with this lady. She says whatever others might say she was entertained. Not seductively it seems to go away and consider some more important issue.

I have written to my MP (not a labour man) saying that many many musicians are disillusioned with new labour over this issue. Hope everyone who signed the petition have also written to their MP? Think Fax your MP had concked out last night but try it.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,ossonflags
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 02:18 AM

John,there is room in the punchmobile.Report to the mcgarry residence before 7.15pm this evening.Any one else in 'ull wanting to come there is still some room.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Fossil
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 04:25 AM

Dear All involved in the Mother of All Sessions -

Unfortunately, my current parlous financial situation won't allow me to cross the Channel to add my twangs to the assorted Noises Off/Off Noises Against the Council, but I'll be with you in spirit. Please add my name, Tony Fuell, to the membership list and (if there is one) advise me on the subscription to pay. And don't forget that the assorted Mudcatters will be expecting a full report!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: KJ
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:02 AM

Will do Tony. I don't think there will be any membership subscriptions or lots of rules & regulations. The agenda is that we are there to play music & meet up with friends old & new. The only rule is that one must participate with some sort of musical instrument or voice. We've only set ourselves up as a 'club' because that is what we were advised to do by the first council official, as a way of getting round this stupid law & the silly,narrow-minded plonkers that have complained to the council. After all the landlord is not making zillions by having us there, we probably put more customers off than attract them in!! What we're protesting about is the fact that like other people we go to a pub to socialise but we don't play pool, darts or dominoes, we gather & attempt to produce something vaguely musical. I could understand it if we were loud enough to disturb the whole neighbourhood but we only disturb the regulars of the pub & they are used to it (probably all deaf!!) May be we all ought to complain to the council every time we walk into a plastic pub with a loud jukebox playing commercial shite.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The Shambles
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 05:44 AM

The problem with the private members club route is that you will have to have memberships and exclude casual members of the public.

It is this way around the PEL requirement that causes the authorities the most concern and has been the subject of many undercover visits (or entrapments).

As the wish of the partipants and the licensees is not to exclude the public, perhaps a more constructive route can be taken? Perhaps an appeal from all parties to local councillors to allow the event to continue as it is, until a meeting can be arranged to find a solution?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 06:07 AM

Karen, that last post sums up my feelings on the subject completely. Wonderful. I shall try that the next time hear a jukebox!!!! See u tonight.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 06:26 AM

thanks mick, see you tonight.john

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: KJ
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 09:41 AM

Just been taking some solace in the sloop (day off!!)& Gill is all geared up for tonight. We have to fill out a membership form, so BRING A PEN as well as your good selves & various musical implements.Apparently if we are a club we are supposed to have an agenda, can I suggest solacing ourselves with our instruments in an entirely impromptu manner? We are also supposed to keep minutes...anyone got a mini-disc or tape recorder? Gill & I thought it may be a good idea to start other clubs for example 'The Sloop Wednesday Orgy Club'- rubber & manacles optional!!
PS Dean can I get a request in for Brave Wolfe?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 11:59 AM

Nah, think I'll give tonight a miss. Wednesday's sound more like my thing. Can I bring my special instrument case....?

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: The DeanMeister
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 12:01 PM

I hate incorrect punctuation. Sorry Oakley, it wasn't deliberate. The grocer in me slipped out for a minute.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,The Bloke in the Corner
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 01:53 PM

LATEST BREAKING NEWS! PLENTY OF ROOM FOR ALL AT THE SLOOP TONIGHT! DON'T BE AFRAID TO COME, THE PUB IS ALL OURS!The madness goes on, but it might all be for the good. The licensing person said the frosted glass door was OK, BUT then the building department (wonder who told them??) came this afternoon and said the glass in the door had to be clear 'as otherwise the people inside would not be able to see a fire developing' (sic) Whoops, that's it then - but NO IT ISN'T! In a stroke of genius, courage and support for us folkies, Gill is CLOSING the pub to the public and for tonight making it a private folk club. Members may sign in guests, of course, so there is no problem with numbers as we have the whole pub to ourselves. Let's make sure that, whatever happens afterwards, we al show Gill and Tony how much we appreciate their support. P.S. There is a rumour of Look North being interested in coming.....bring an instrument and make thsi a night to remember.

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 06:50 PM

heloo, i just get back from the sloop, it was really nice and a good sessuin , but tgis goverment is a big load of shit, they making si;lly roules about doors etc, why dont they piss off and misd there one bisinrss.this is my iopimion.john

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Oaklet
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 07:36 PM

Colin Thompson told them about the glass

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: smallpiper
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 08:04 PM

Oakley don't be silly it wasn't Colin Thompson we know that it was your nemisis Mr Winston Whats-his-face!

T'was a great session loads o support from catters and the BBC was thur filming an interviewing and we should be on Look North the morrow mornings night.

I'm sure a mnore ober person could be found to give a better report on the night.. I can only say I had a brilliant time!

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 08:14 PM

9

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: smallpiper
Date: 25 Mar 03 - 08:28 PM

John I said a more sober person - you are ruled out by default cos I recon your as nuet as a pissed as I am! :-) hic

Subject: RE: Music Police raid Sloop, Barton Lincs
From: GUEST,Raggytash
Date: 26 Mar 03 - 03:39 AM

Well what a good do, good to see so many committed people............. or is that people who should be committed .....................
I will not received the same version of Look North as you do so a report would be interesting, although Ossenflags may remember to tape it for me
We will try yet again to post some piccys on this thread but steam driven computer doesn't like them.
Finally,Deanmeister I would like definative chords to Jobsworth if you have them.
Ta Raggytash