Who or what are the 'Folk Police'

Subject: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,Craven
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:33 PM

I'm pretty new to all this (the folk scene and mudcat)

I've heard Kate Rusby mention them, and I've seen references in the Radio 3 messages.

Could someone please explain? Sorry if this is something that everyone else understands. I don't!

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:43 PM

people for whom the word traditional defines folk and who therefore don't think singer songwriters are part of 'folk' are called 'the folk police' by those who want to 'make folk accessible to modern audiences'

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:49 PM

I disbelieve in The Folk Police... Do I get a Saving Throw?

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:52 PM

Although rooted in the tradition I write songs of my own and so I find myself for the first time on Mudcat forced to use the expletive "Bollocks!"

Love and kisses..............Harry.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,Anahootz, sans biscuit
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:54 PM

Only if someone uses Guthrie Dust on you...or perhaps a Seeger Spell..

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 03:54 PM

But to add to the confusion as to who the "folk police" are, there are those who are heavily into "singer-songwriter" fare and are not especially interested in traditional material who will try to tell you that it isn't folk music unless you wrote it yourself. I've heard singers criticized for singing traditional material rather than writing it themselves, and there are open mikes around that are for "singer-songwriters" only.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:04 PM

So, the folk police would be anyone who doesn't think what you do is folk music and says so?

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:10 PM

One thing which does cause some resentment, methinks, are certain people who use the festival/club circuit as a means to launch themselves into a more media friendly pop/folk career   i.e. they might still use the occassional acoustic instrument as a passing nod to the roots they came from.....and please don't give me all that Dylan/Judas stuff....

Do I sound pissed off?.......

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Yvonne
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:15 PM

Well said, Harry! Could not have put it better myself--

For the benefit of Craven The Folk Police do exist but don't worry they are easy to dismiss because they are infinitely BORING!!!!!   

:0) Diz

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Blues=Life
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:20 PM

I like what I heard Ray Charles say on TV the other night. "There's only two kinds of music, good and bad."
I only like the good stuff. So come and get me, dirty coppers!
*G*
Blues

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:26 PM

There's no such thing as the "Folk Police". It's a term used by people (often rather new to the game) who think that they are right no matter what, and that everyone who disagrees with them is (a) automatically wrong and (b) therefore some sort of fascist. Indeed, I've seen the term "folk fascist" used; but only, so far as I can recall, by people who showed no particular sign of knowing what they were talking about.

Anybody who believes that only "singer-songwriter" material can be "relevant to modern audiences" has a great deal to learn. It's often the case, though, that ignorance breeds arrogance and a determined unwillingness to accept the possibility that there may be rather more to things than we ourselves have so far seen. A person who feels that they are more important than those around them, and who is able to dish out criticism but can't take it, is liable to develop the kind of persecution fantasy that leads them to silly and offensive name-calling of this kind.

I don't remember hearing Kate use the term, but I would imagine that it was part of her stage-patter. She's too bright, I think, to take such things seriously.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:32 PM

e.g. Little Timmy No-name trundles in to his local folk club composed of a number of people, some of whom have been around a while and others, perhaps, not so long....but their music is rooted in the tradition...English, Irish, whatever....Timmy then proceeds to hammer out a Buddy Holly song read off a scrap of paper accompanied by power chords on a badly tuned twelve string...this does not go down as well as he thought....must be those damned Folk Police again!!

Funny...we never hear of the Blues police or the Jazz police or the Karaoke police...maybe Little Timmy won't go to those nasty places....

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:37 PM

Bev and Jerry, I've only heard it applied to the ones with the traditional/ purest outlooks. I don't think it's so much that they may express a different opinion but be adamant that their view is the only view and at times object to something being played or sung that in their opinion doesn't belong.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:46 PM

Erm....if anybody out there is actually calles Little Timmy No-Name I'm really, really sorry.......

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Peter Woodruff
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 04:53 PM

Folk police sounds like agriculture police. Seen any heliocopters lately?

Peter

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:08 PM

Umm, I'd never thought of it from Malcolm's angle before. I've only used the term in jest, e.g. a couple of months ago, I led The Red Haired Boy on bass guitar in our traditional Irish session and wondered what the "folk police" may have thought of it.

I've no dobut though that you can get either side being stupid and that people who are making valid comments getting called names. I guess much depends on circumstances. In the folk clubs I was involved with, I wouldn't have been too happy with somone telling me "this song is not traditional, it's not folk, why is he singing it?" on the other hand, it may be quite in order in a club dealing only in traditional material (which is perfectly reasonable if that is what they want) to pass comment if I did a modern song...

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:19 PM

I've never come across anybody in a folk club or a session saying things like "This song is not traditional, it's not folk, why is he singing it?" Maybe I've led a sheltered life, but it hasn't felt like it.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Santa
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:31 PM

Kate Rusby does indeed use the term in her stage act, as part of her banter. She jokes about (for example) turning Ranzo Ray into a "girly song".

However, I have heard established folk singers of maritime songs huffing and puffing about precisely that: Kate turning Ranzo Ray into a girly song! We also heard on the programme, and have seen in postings on this board since, claims that people shouldn't learn folk songs from CDs, and shouldn't sing a traditional song themselves until they have studied how it has been sung by a traditional singer.

The "Folk Police" is a joke: but like the best jokes, is well rooted in reality. They are visible (or audible!) to others than the naive neophyte who knows little and cares less, and deserves what he/she gets.

The songs are not harmed by being reassessed and sung in different ways - the originals are still there for those who prefer them like that. Perhaps that ought to be remembered more often.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Ed.
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:39 PM

Malcolm,

I've heard Kate Rusby use the term several times. As you assumed, it's mostly part of her 'stage patter' However, I've heard her use it when she's used her own tune for a traditional lyric, saying (perhaps tongue in cheek) "The folk police will get me for this"

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 05:43 PM

'Ello, 'ello, what 'ave we got here? If you can't prove that's a real folk song, you're NICKED me son!

I've heard the term used a thousand times (usually as 'folk nazi' which folks seem to be realizing gets people very angry) but usually it's 'cuz someone did not get hired by a club or festival. It appears to be one step above "clique", or "inner circle" which imply a GROUP of the above.

Cheers

Rick

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:04 PM

It's seems to be peculiar to the folk scene, people trying to pass off other kinds of music as "folk", and calling people who obect "folk police". I think it quite unlikely that anybody would go to a rock'n'roll night with their choir and do a Purcell motet, and then object if someone said "Very nice, but's not very rock'n'roll". People might love it, but that wouldn't make it rock'n'roll, and it would not be considered a "fascist" or "police" comment if you pointed it out.
    I don't know why this is, there must be a psychological explanation. I play all sorts of music, but if I'm playing something that isn't folk I feel no wild urge to convince people that it is. Even if I strum a guitar while I sing it.
   I presume it is basically the inherent strength of actual folk music that generates this problem: people who love folk music feel a desparate desire that whatever music they make must be folk music too; and they can't bear it if some "Emperor's New Clothes" type boy says"But it ISNT folk".

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:17 PM

To me, the jocular term "folk police" describes people who object to modernizing trad music such as Irish dance tunes by using non-traditional instruments or arrangements. For example, some say that Irish music should be played the way Michael Coleman, or Willie Clancy or whoever, played it; or that it should be preserved at the 1870s level, or similar notions.

To them, I say: "Folk music is not a pickle... it doesn't need to be preserved!"

It does need to be kept alive, though.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:18 PM

Right, I thought it would have been a joke if Kate had said it. It's a throwaway that people recognise and chuckle at in that sort of context, because the term is bandied about a good deal, and sensible people don't take it too seriously; in practice it's generally used light-heartedly, but sometimes with a degree of venom. It's a cop-out, though (pardon the expression); an attempt to avoid addressing the real issues, I think.

Nobody on the Radio 3 programme said that people "shouldn't learn folk songs from CDs, and shouldn't sing a traditional song themselves until they have studied how it has been sung by a traditional singer". What was said (I paraphrase) was that simply learning songs from records made by other revival performers is not, in the end, enough; the best way to a full and mature understanding of traditional song is to find out how the real traditional singers dealt with it. That takes time, and nobody can be expected to do it all first; but if they're serious about the music for its own sake (rather than just seeing it as a handy pool of material that may not be in copyright, and onto which they can impose their own personalities), they will, in time.

Bear in mind, too, that this wasn't meant to include folk who do a bit of casual singing in their bedrooms, or the odd floor-spot (though a bit of self-education would do no harm in many cases), but those who aspire to pursue the music to some degree professionally. It's about showing some respect for the music and for those who have passed it on to us, and understanding (as was also pointed out) that we are not, in the end, very important as individuals; it will probably still be there when we are gone. Ego should have no part in the way we approach it. Ego is what leads to all that "Folk Police" foolishness.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:21 PM

By late 1965 I had been singing for various audiences for thirteen years, and had sung regularly in coffeehouses since 1958. One evening I walk into the dressing room at a local coffeehouse to tune my guitar before doing my evening's singing, and encountered this barefoot kid, eighteen years old, wearing opaque, dime-sized dark glasses. I had seen him around before. He had been singing and playing the guitar for about six months, and he was a passionate admirer of Bob Dylan (that this was the case was not Bob Dylan's fault—he can hardly by dumped on because of the nature of his self-appointed apostles), even doing his utmost to sound like Dylan (i.e., an eighteen-year-old trying to sound like he was eighty). He wrote his own songs: angry polemics about the nature of the world interspersed with bouts of adolescent angst that droned on tunelessly for thirty verses or more. When he saw me walk in, he ups to me and he says, "Jeezus, man, you here again? Why do you bother singin' all that old crap? The stuff you sing isn't socially relevant (his very words). Nobody wants to hear that shit anymore! Why don't you just fuck off?" (Among other things, I think he wanted my job.)

This was a fairly extreme case, but around that time, I kept running into guys like this. The audiences liked what I did. In fact, most of them found me and my traditional "old crap" a blessed relief from what else was going on about then. But I was one of the few left, and the coffeehouses started closing up for lack of audiences. Wonder why?

I would hardly call this little gink a member or the "folk police," but there are still creatures around like that, among singer-songwriters and traditionalists alike. Ignore them, for their words carry as much meaning as the cacophonous gobbling of a flock of turkeys. Lo, even moreso. They are like unto a herd of horses, bloated from getting into the oats and overeating, and are in the painful throes of breaking much wind.

Sing what you want, and if the audience doesn't like it, find another audience. They're there.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: John Routledge
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:41 PM

"Folk Police" is a term of endearment - not

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: harvey andrews
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:50 PM

Folk police are the people who have forgotten that music is about joy,...the expression of the human spirit, the expression of hope, of anger,of humour, of story. it's irrelevant if it was written five hundred years ago or yesterday. If it's on the button it will survive. If it's not it will die. Folk police want music to be a museum.
Yesterday I participated in the recording of a song with a leading singer/songwriter standing next to a leading traditional singer. Harmony prevailed in all senses of the word. If the pro's can do it, why can't everybody?

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Deckman
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:52 PM

Don ... perfectly said! Bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: jimmyt
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:56 PM

Don I very much enjoyed your post in the Folk Music police. Everytime I feel like I really don't belong in this website because of my political views or the fact that I play in a group who performs nothing but "old crap" (note, we have all the work we want as there is a large audience of people who love this crap), I happen on to a post by you or Jerry Rasmussen or Rick Feilding or a few others that I have enormous respect for. I decide to hang out some more. I feel honored to get a chance to interact with class guys who can play the music and have been doing it for a long time! Thanks again jimmyt

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Jon Bartlett
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 06:59 PM

There is no such body as the Folk Police, and the Chief Inspector has authorized me to say so.

Jon Bartlett, Det.Insp.

Seriously - "folk police" is merely an insult, akin to "politically correct": it's a phrase used by folk who feel they are being (or have been or might be) criticized for something they've done/not done - a projection, if you like, of a) their fears that the putative critic is right; b) their anxiety over not knowing whether their act or omission IS blameworthy; and c) their unwillingness to deal with the substantive issue. If you are someone who does any more in folk music that sing or play, you too will one day be accused of being a member.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Roughyed
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:03 PM

Let's face it, playing folk music is at the moment "odd". My reaction to people finding my taste "odd" is to say "No this is really good. Listen it's relevant to you." and play music that connects with others hopefully without compromising what I feel is the nature of the music we love.

There are others who seem to "like" folk music because it is "odd" and will go to any lengths to prevent "ordinary" people connecting with it. These people are to me the Folk Police and they should go somewhere and disappear up their collective orifices because they damage the spread of our wonderful music.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:07 PM

McGrath, I have never come across the example I quoted but have in the past come accross people very anxious to work out and asking what sort of folk club we were because of previous objections elsewhere. In some cases those objections were for all I know justified, in other cases, perhaps not. I was really trying to illustrate a point. The third and most likely experience on that particular issue was that they were people aware of difficulties elsewhere, and were most likely on holiday (Llandudno was a resort) trying, to work out if what they did would be considered acceptable at the club they visited.

I have however met people with views on what a place should be and, as I think I mentioned before, once had a lecture on how the guitar (I think) was not a tradtional instrument. In that instance, I took great delight in informing the individual that my own tenor banjo, an "acceptable instrument" did not exist until around 1915.

I'm straying further into other territory now but the bottom line to me from the side of the venue is let each be what it wants to be and enjoy it for what it is.

Jon

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Sam L
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:10 PM

The folk police are like many other police. I'm a vegetarian but a few times it's been too rude not to eat what was served, and I suppose the vegetarian police could bust me. But I think I prefer being tainted to being perfectly rule-bound.

Seinfeld had a lot of fun with situational rules and with characters becoming the "police" of various situations, (is soup a "meal"?) or criminal masterminds of others (how to date your girlfriend's room-mate). It was a good running joke formula that sometimes involved actual police characters debating things like backing-in to park vs. pulling-forward. It's a good renewable source of humour because we are all silly like that one way or other.

I take all sorts of filing systems to be filing systems, music isn't about what folder you'd put it in. Young people and students can get very caught up in all that armature, and suppose it improves them, somehow. But it is fun and interesting to think of what is essentially this or that, how it works, its psychology, what the gist of style is. Greg's comment reminds me of the Art-rock I grew up hearing, which seemed to stop being rock at all somewhere along the way. People always laugh off the What is Folk question, but I think it's fun as long as there are interesting, thoughtful, or even surprising answers. Or funny arguments.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 07:38 PM

I have been accused of being a member of the "folk police", because I have been argueing for 30 years and have posted to 253 Mudcat threads (+/- 27) about the need to keep the words distinct.
I sing and listen to many types of music, but prefer much of the older stuff, and simply want a guide when I go to a concert or purchase a record/CD. If everything is called 'folk', then nothing is folk...it is just music.
I simply resent seeing BOTH 'folk' and 'trad' being grabbed because they are short, handy words and being left with no easy way to refer to "all that old, often anonymous, mostly non-commercial, usually acoustic, music written about dogs and cabbages and battles and villains etc..."

Is that "policing"?...naaawwww *grin*...just complaining. Sing any damn thing you want, just leave me and a few old curmudgeons a little island in the vast sea of "new" where we can appreciate "old" without being told that "it's ALL folk"!

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:43 PM

I proudly plead guilty. The young ones always need those who can teach them the historical truths---especially in times when many wish to disregard looking back for values. Just know this---you don't know what you are missing by closing off to it. As Jesus supposedly said, "You know not what you do."

Those two sentences main words are "don't know" and "know not"----two sides of the same coin.

They add up to ignorance----and it is always sad to see movements succeed and ideas take hold that are based on faulty thought processes and/or lack of good info.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 21 Mar 03 - 11:43 PM

Go argue with Uncle Pete. His definition is that people sing it because they like it.

The volkspoleizei are our very own self appointed Inquisitors who are too insecure to simply let the music flow. If it is good it will survive. If not, it won't.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Seamus Kennedy
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 01:40 AM

I find that those of the folk-police persuasion tend to use the phrase "You should..." a lot.
And to them I usually respond "If you don't 'should' on me, I won't 'should' on you.
All the best.

Seamus

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: greg stephens
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 03:01 AM

It's all very confusing. harvey Andrews obviously loathes the Folk Police, other people say they dont exist.And are they people who say you should learn about trad songs before you sing them, or are they people who say you shouldnt use guitars to accompany English folk songs. Are the the people who just say it isnt traditional to use guitars to accompany English folk songs? And do they include, as some have said, the forces on the"other side". who say music should be made "relevant", by writing new stuff or using modern rtechnology. I tend to be with McGrath: nobody actually ever comes up to me and says "you can't use that guitar/djembe/synthesiser". (Though they may say it behind my back, I suppose. No. I think the concept of "folk police" is largely an invention of people who want to slag off those who disagree with them, but dont wish to argue. Users of the term never seem to identify the members of this police force: I, for example, havent the remotest idea if I am a member of it, or a notable criminal pursued by it.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Peterr
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:30 AM

They are indeed often boring, often not performers, and if they are they seem to be on an ego trip.
Two quotes, 1: Carthy's 'The only harm you can do to a song is ignore it'
2: Anon 'I've never heard of a song that wrote itself'

Those sum it up for me.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: ET
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 06:53 AM

I used the expression in a context so I suppose I am responsible. They are enforcement officers from the Local Council carrying out their "evening all" duties of making sure there is no danger to locals in pubs from unamplified piano accordians etc.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 07:01 AM

I find the use of the term 'police' in this context almost designed to provoke more heat than light. I am not in favour of anyone dictating 'in the large' what should and should not be done to folk music; nor am I in favour of anyone assuming the past can be blithely ignored. (And that applies to a great many of my interests, not just folk music.) But in specific situations and circumstances decisions have to be made. That is simply life.

A Point Against Policing: They are hopefully aware of the impact Cecil Sharp had on recorded folk music. Again, most of them are aware of how William Kimber sparked at least part of his interest. William's instrument of choice was the concertina, which at the time was about as 'recent' as the electric guitar is to us. Folk music changes.

A Point for Policing: Club/session/singaround organisers have a duty to guide the way it develops so that they believe it is being strengthened. (Of course, they will sometimes be wrong!) Necessarily, that involves them selecting the music to some extent. Whether you call that policing or not is presentation more than fact.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 08:42 AM

Peterr: "Two quotes, 1: Carthy's 'The only harm you can do to a song is ignore it'.....it is not necessary to 'ignore' any song-only to apply a bit of taste & discretion about where it is sung. Does "Yellow Submarine" belong at a Bluegrass festival? There ARE distinctions to be made.

2: Anon 'I've never heard of a song that wrote itself' ...so? That statement is a close relative of "I ain't never heard a horse sing one"...it means nothing in relation to the debate about whether 'folk' and it's sub-categories need to be defined or protected.

Some people above who argue against rules and definitions are evading the issue....and they KNOW that there are types of music and venues that they like and seek out more than others. They draw lines just as folk like Art & I do...they just draw fuzzier lines in different places.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Deni-C
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 08:50 AM

and to think the folk 'scene' attracted me, partly because i perceived it as more tolerant, or should that be less intolerant....


how wrong can a girl be!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 10:20 AM

Folk Police? (Also called folk nazis) They are the ones whose taste in folk music is immeasureably better than yours, and they have been in it for so long that they remember when people used straight razors and Model T's. They can usually be identified by the stiff gait, due either to arthritis...or the broomstick up the hind end. They are frequently (but not always) in charge of folk festivals, folk societies, and open stages.

As the young Bob Dylan once said (back in the 60's sometime)..."When I hear the term 'folk music', I think of a bunch of fat, old people sitting around playing guitars."

Oooo! He was so politically incorrect! Don't blame me...cos he said it, I didn't. :-) The funny thing is, I am now over 50 and I sit around once a week with my over-50 folkie friends and play guitar. But...I'm still thin.

I would add to the above that some of the nicest people I've ever met are in folk music, and folkies generally are nice, tolerant people...it's just that some of them fall into the trap of self-righteousness. It happens in all groups of people.

- LH

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Santa
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 12:31 PM

Ah, but if they were real, would you join?

Imagine being able to go to a Folk club and know that you were not about to be asked to sit through

- self-indulgent singer-songwriter blues about life in Huddersfield
- a string of Herman's Hermits' greatest hits
- non-stop interminable indistinguishable Irish rigs and jeels
- bands with a complete disrespect and disdain for their audience

Well, that last was a festival concert not a club night - but you know the (rare) kind. We all have our pet peeves...what's left in the middle is folk music.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: harvey andrews
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 03:20 PM

"band with a complete disrespect and disdain for their audience"
I worked with one of them recently. They opened for me. One member of the audience was so incensed by their attitude that he stormed out and asked for his money back. They seemed to think that any sort of communication other than through their music would be "selling out".Actually they are the perfect band to follow. Just a smile and a "hello" and the audience are yours for the night!

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 03:25 PM

They are the ones who say 'Go back to the source' but mean the person Cecil Sharp (or equivalnet) recorded it from who only happened to be the one passing on at that particular time.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Sam L
Date: 22 Mar 03 - 05:29 PM

It's an interesting aspect of this thread how it relates to ideas of originality, which long ago meant something like "coming from an old established source" but which now usually means novelty, personal vision.

Another interesting thing is how we deal with criticism, whether it's meant to help, or simply snub. Really good stuff seems to arise when people can deal with each other critically somewhere between the rat-packish mutual admiration of I love this guy--and I mean that! on the one hand, or You Suck! on the other. In college critiques it always seemed to me that being a star student or a hopeless case both got you ignored, though the former was preferable at the time. Good criticism is hard to do.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 05:16 AM

Yes, indeed, Fred Miller, "good criticism is hard to do". We've grown up (unless we've been fortunate) with the notion that critique is criticism, is "put-down". It's not. To know somebody, to know something, in a true sense, is to love it. "How do I love thee? Let me count the ways..." You want to understand what you love, you want (in the words of an old scifi fan) to "grok it in its fullness". This may mean, with folk music, that you want to understand its "quiddity", its "what-ness". What is is about this music that I love? I've been in love with folk music since I was 16 - 40 years of adoration. Bill D and Art Thieme are with me here, I think. I think I'm closer to understanding that which I love, by virtue of struggling with definitions: "I love *this* and not "that" - why?". I think I'm a better person because of it. The struggle to understand is neverending, and if you truly love, you never stop trying to understand. My life in and with folk music has been just that.

I have a hard time with people who use the phrases "folk Nazi" or "folk police" because the the way in which these phrases are used are so full of hate. I ask myself, "what is it that they hate?". I don't believe they hate me, or people like me, or traditional music. I belive what they hate (and I think a better word might be "fear") is the thinking that goes with loving. They have perhaps grown up in a culture which abhors thinking and overvalues feeling, and the notion of "criticism" is for them entirely negative. My 2c.

Jon Bartlett

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: harvey andrews
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:42 AM

Maybe this needs a new thread. Is out response to music through our "thinking" or through our "feeling"?
A nearer definition of the folk police would be to see them as "no" sayers. They're in all walks of life. Their response to any request is a sharp intake of breath followed by a slow shaking of the head.The "yes" sayers react with a smile and a nod.I'm with the "yes" sayers, even if it does mean that occassionally a young person who is just learning hammers out a Buddy Holly song. That's how I started.Once inside the tent however my musical education began.

Subject: RE: Who or what are the 'Folk Police'
From: Harry Basnett
Date: 23 Mar 03 - 06:50 AM

Point taken, Harvey....but I wasn't talking about a 'young learner'...I quite agree that someoned dipping their little piggies into the water for the first time needs encouragement not knockbacks...we all had to start somewhere...

See you at the Open Door tonight.....


All the best..............Harry Basnett.