BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 07:08 PM

That checkpoint - a reporter on the BBC was saying today that there weren't any signs out telling traffic that there was a checkpomt coming up, and no proper blocking of the road. It must have felt more like an ambush than a checkpoint. Even if you actually believe the claims about warning shots.

Probably not malice, just incompetance, with unspeakably horrible results. These are supposed to be highly trained professionals. Maybe they weren't trained in how to set up and operate a checkpoint - in which case whoever drew up their training programme ought to be court-martialled.

I saw a photo today of a soldier - on his helmet there was a painting of a skull, and a large painted slogan "Kill 'em all". What kind of insanity is it that allows that kind of thing, in an army that is supposed to be trying to convince frightened people that it is there to bring peace and liberty?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:06 PM

Ah Lepusious - you can't read or comprehend the English language. Run your mouth all you want - you were never threatened - implied or otherwise - you chose to read it that way. That's your paranoia not mine.

You must be feeling good - just finish up your prank call to the 22 year old Army troops parents telling them he was dead? Your opinion means little and I'm not real concerned about a fat skin head in wherever it is you hang out. Must feel good going to the bar and telling all your buds about how you really straighten them out on the internet.

Well Rexious - see you around kid - self admitted big mouth and supporter of the Iraqi Forces of dear old Saddam.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:55 PM

Lepus, re-read it, please. I meant that you were still barely in your 20's, i.e. almost 30.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 09:57 PM

Troll-

My apologies- didn't mean to ignore you.

I think that it is utterly marvelous that you have never in your life done anything to harm another person. That must really free your conscience to be so pure of spirit.

Do you actually come up with this hyperbolic shit yourself, or does someone write it for you? & you accuse me of being smug?

I would observe that Norton's pride must be a frail and fragile thing of little substance indeed if it can be so easily undermined, as you maintain, by my posting of a few facts.

"Have a Nice Day"-

Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 01 Apr 03 - 10:25 PM

Lepus Rex:

Sorry for addin' some 20 or so years to ya', my friend. I haven't seen your pic but maybe I should. Might of fact, I haven't seen too many folks pics. Makes it more interesting in a way.

But, inspite of enjoyin' yer posts, I'm gonna have to hang with my position that a lot of folks have been caught up in some funky sh*t, with no way out. Black kids trying to escape poverty and the ghetto. Look at the disporportionate number of minorities and I think you'll see a pettern here.

Now, as for Norton. Hey, he is from another group that you will never understand. But that's okay. Just know that that bridge has to be built and won't be built in our life time. It is too important to those who rule, control, manipulate and control the subject/working class to ever allow that divide to be bridged for it is a ceneter piece in their scheme to maintain their position. Though you may be a mere 28, once you understand this lesson, you will be infinately wiser.

It ain't that "new and improved"... Divide and conquer....

Meanwhile, the working class fight their wars, pay for their wars and end up dieing in poverty.

Welcome to Boss Hog's America!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:54 AM

Yes Greg, I came up with it all by myself.
You did not post your "truth" to inform, but to harm. You are still the sumg, sanctimonious,
prig that you have always been; proof that some things don't improve with age.
Lurker, I do believe that Canada is larger that the US and I don't recall it being uninhabited when the ancestors of the present population got there. As for Russia, you could drop the US into Siberia and it would vanish; and it is still part of Russia. I'm not sure how China fares in size comparison, but most of what it now claims, it claims by right of conquest.
And I don't even want to talk about Australia.
Greg, I always have a nice day. It's all part of my revenge.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:31 AM

You did not post your "truth" to inform, but to harm. You are still the sumg, sanctimonious, prig that you have always been

In light of your history of postings, Troll, I'm amazed you can say this without choking.

And what precisely are Norton's ranting postings and personal attacks designed to do? I'm sure he appreciates you running to his defense. I rather assumed the rugged, two-fisted, cock-on-a-dunghill, foul-mouthed, thump-anyone-who-disagrees-with-me leatherneck he makes himself out to be would be able to take care of himself. Is this not the case?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Ireland
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 08:45 AM

McG of H your not seriously suggesting that a full VCP should be set up in a war zone? That would be totally naive, Iraq is not N.Ireland,the Iraqi troops could target the area, neatly marked out with signs and traffic cones.

The troops need to be able to set up and go just as fast,load of nonsense asking for signs to be laid out, leaving troops vulnerable to attack.

I do not think that the VCP was handled correctly, and I'm saying this based on the reporters account. But I do have a question, why did the driver try to speed through? Considering the theory that the driver may have thought it was an Iraqi vcp, why should the driver be worried? if they thought it was a US vcp why should the driver be worried?

The reports show that the vcp was on a long road, to say it was anything near an ambush shows a little ignorance. You do not ambush people while hiding in the middle of the road with two big tanks right out in the open, why? because those you wish to ambush would see you and run off.

Is it true that the Captain, who said that the platoon just killed people because they did not fire a warning shot quick enough, was sent home. I was told the Capt. was on T.V. saying that his comments did not refer to the vcp incident.

I do agree with you that the slogans and images would not be conducive to winning over people, nor does the reports that show some US troop whooping it up on a tank after taking part in some action.

Is subtlety lost on some people, or that their actions do have consequences, who would support people who have such slogans as "This is for NYPD", which is to suggest this is in retaliation for Sept 11. This would indicate to Iraqi people that they were responsible for the Sept attack, and under these conditions,I understand why they have not greeted the US troops with open arms.

Should such associations to the NYPD or any reference to the Sept 11 attack be made in this war? I believe not and in doing so really cheapens the aims of the war to simple revenge.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:26 AM

Here is a link to the report of the checkpoint killing by William Branigin of the Washington post."You just killed a family because you didn't fire a warning shot".

And this is the crucial bit for me: "To try to prevent a recurrence, Capt Johnson ordered that signs be posted in Arabic to warn people to stop."

Confirming that such signs had not been placed previously. What kind of preparation has this army made for the very predictable situation they find themselves in? I think it is nonsense to suggest that putting them out at the time of setting up a road block would have meant putting soldiers at unreasonable risk of attack.

Even from a military point of view, in a situation like this, avoiding deaths like this has to be an absolute highest priority.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:51 AM

Bobert!!! Shame on you:

"I'm gonna have to hang with my position that a lot of folks have been caught up in some funky sh*t, with no way out. Black kids trying to escape poverty and the ghetto."

Now you know that is no way to talk about Colin Powell, or Kofi Annan, for that matter.

But this bit was hilarious - Bobert - you totally surpassed yourself:

"Now, as for Norton. Hey, he is from another group that you will never understand. But that's okay (A). Just know that that bridge has to be built and won't be built in our life time (B). It is too important to those who rule, control, manipulate and control the subject/working class to ever allow that divide to be bridged for it is a ceneter piece in their scheme to maintain their position (C). Though you may be a mere 28, once you understand this lesson, you will be infinately wiser.(D)

It ain't that "new and improved"... Divide and conquer....(A)

Meanwhile, the working class fight their wars, pay for their wars and end up dieing in poverty.(C)"

Taken from the above all sentences suffixed:

(A) - Standard Patronizing Bullshit.
(B) - Really Partonizing Bullshit.
(C) - Astronomically Cliched Patronizing Bullshit.
(D) - Mega-Patronizing Bullshit.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 09:59 AM

McGrath - Your posting about one American troop with a questionable marking on his helmet is to be generalized to all of the troops over there? By that rationale one could assume that Lepus and Greg F represent all of you over here. How true is that?

And the incident with the van was explained quite well - warning shots were fired, a shot was fired into the engine compartment, PRIOR to any shots being fired into the interior of the van. A resident Muslim Cleric in the area was on TV stating that the Death Squads had ordered the women to do this or face having all of their families killed. Much the same as is being found with interviews of Iraqi troops that have surrendered.

Bobert - In light of your last posting I rest my case on who and what you are and why I prefer not to have you involved with my family. Your inference is in line with my assertion. Supporting one who supports Saddam and his death squads is really quite out of line with your normal posturing - that's too bad -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:19 AM

One wonders which "you" Lepus and I am supposed to represent and over where ????

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:29 AM

"Your posting about one American troop with a questionable marking on his helmet is to be generalized to all of the troops over there?"

Did I say that? The fact that he was wearing something like that openly is an indication, however, that he wasn't worried about trouble from his superiors. And they should worry about that kind of stuff and the message it sends to the world, and to people who might be undecided one way or another about whether this is a liberating army or a war of imperialist aggression.

William Branigin's account of what happened sounds a lot more convincing than the army account. Or any subsequent spinning operation.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:37 AM

In a general response I would say that "you" represents the supposed "peace" folks who antagonize others, start fights and then say they were not wanting that, stray from topic to keep the fight going, are assholes and not truly looking for anything but a confrontation, infer that which is not stated or implied to return to jingoistic taunting behavior, and have a rabid need to "win" with the last word at all costs. "You" also are the folks that destroy proerty in the name of civil disobedience, physically attack those who countermarch, physically assault men and women in uniform as a "statement" of peace, make anonymous threats over the phone to people who have children fighting in Iraq, are bigots, racist, gay bashing, despising of anything that does not exactly meet your standard of what should be.

The problem being that your standard does not hold a steady line. Kind of like trying to direct the wind with your hand. "You" are about confrontation and imbecilic attitude simply for the sake of the argument and confrontation. Over here refers to Mudcat in a tiny way and the peace movement in splinter sectors. "You" are the ones who give the rest a bad name - just my opinion -

That's a few -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:53 AM

Typical Kevin,

"William Branigin's account of what happened sounds a lot more convincing than the army account. Or any subsequent spinning operation."

How much effort have you gone to, to investigate any of the above. The journalists happens to coincide with your prejudices so that automatically becomes the most believeable - maybe to you - but don't parade his version as being factual until such time as that has been proved to be the case.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:14 AM

Greg, I stand by my statement. And I'm still breathing
As for Norton1, yeah, I imagine he can take care of himself without any help from me, but why should he have all the fun. After all, it's the Navy that gets the Marines where they need to go and we generally hang around after we drop them off. Just in case they need us.
Now I'm a 62 year-old with bad knees and ankles and I've had my butt kicked more than once, but I've never backed down from a fight of any kind and I think the same applies to Steve Norton.
I don't expect you can understand this kind of cameradery, I don't think you have the background knowledge that is required and I'm very sure you wouldn't want to do that which is necessary to obtain that knowledge.
Please understand that I am not making threats or beating my chest or any of that macho crap. I'm just stating a few simple truths.
If you can't understand or accept them, that's not my problem.

troll

BTW< Lepus, your line about Norton hitting you with his walker was a stitch. Only he doesn't get around with a walker. I believe he rides a Harley Davidson. There is a difference.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:24 AM

"There is a minority of intellectual pacifists whose real though unadmitted motive appears to be hatred of Western democracy and admiration of totalitarianism.
Pacifist propaganda usually boils down to saying that one side is as bad as the other but if one looks closely at the writings of younger intellectual pacifists, one finds
that they do not by any means express impartial disapproval but are directed almost entirely against Britain and the US. Moreover they do not as a rule condemn
violence as such, but only violence used in defense of Western countries." - George Orwell (in 1945), quoted in a letter to The Spectator (GUEST posting this citation for about the sixth time in Mudcat history)

Some may want to read the whole article. I recommend it.

Georges Orwell's Notes on Nationalism

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:36 AM

Troll-I believe that the U.S., including Alaska, is larger than Canada, but I can't check right now; recall, however, that many of the early Canadians actually co-existed peacefully with the natives, which was much less frequently the case in the U.S. Siberia was not taken by force, nor was much of China, Tibet excluded; most of the People's Republic of China has been controlled by Chinese emperors for thousands of years, and it's hard to say whether conquest or assimilation was the original method of incorporation.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:49 AM

Troll, its not that I can't or don't understand. I've just got a low tolerance for bombast.

For example: I am not making threats or beating my chest or any of that macho crap - you (and certainly Norton) sure could have fooled me. Maybe you both could work on your phrasing and delivery?

As for your surmise about what I can understand, what I would want to do, what background I have & the rest of it, as you state: "its not my problem" and, past a certain point, I really don't give a shit. Knock yourself out, if it amuses you.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Norton1
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 11:59 AM

Things like this are what I am referring to. Very productive for someone -

"I've just got a low tolerance for bombast." For someone so full of it - I can understand that. Mr. "Last word" you are welcome to my walker to assist you in packing all of it around! LOL

Troll - Thanks Brother - the walker thing had me laughing too. What a hoot!

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:22 PM

Lurker, go to Siberia as I have and talk to what is left of the native peoples. They will tell you, as they told me, how Siberia was conquered by force of arms. It started under the Czars and continued right up through the Soviets with native peoples being displaced, killed, or forced to work under the control of the state.
As for China, look at Tibet. It's only the most recent of a long list of armed conquests by the Han - the principal ethnic group in China. I used to have a web site bookmarked about the current situation in Inner Mongolia. I'll have to look it up again and I'll PM it to you if you like. Western China is not populated by Chinese at all but by Uighirs, a Turkic people. Now they are being displaced as the central government sends thousands of Han there as "colonists". There is an armed rebellion ongoing there. It's pretty low-key so far, but it exists. In 1945 this was the area in which the short-lived country of Turkestan was born. It died soon after under the weight of Maos Peoples Army.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:26 PM

Forum Lurker, this isn't the one I was looking for but it'll do.
www.caccp.org/im/ - 26k - Apr 1, 2003

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 12:46 PM

WOlfgang --

Thanks so much for the Orwell article. Admirable and analytical. IT is a little unnerving to measure the current situation against his yardsticks, I must say. But there is a difference in tempo between the world he was measuring and the one we ar ein now. It is difficult in the spate of high-speed, rapidly changhing facts, for example, to find out what the relative truth of the propositions being used in mass-think are -- such as "the people of Iraq will celebrartre liberation once they know Saddam is out of the picture". One of those things I would like to find true, but cannot in all honesty assert to be so.

I also think in times as volatile as these that there is a gray area between patriotism and nationalism; or at least I feel there is one, because of the constantly shifting probabilities of various 'facts' and assertions being bandied about. Even though we have thousands of times more on-site pictures and videos of the current developments than 20th Century intellectuals enjoyed concerning the ebb and flow of the second WW, we seem no better than they were at applying any rigor to our thinking about them.

A

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Amos
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:15 PM

A lot of students around the country protested the war today. The

National Youth and Student Peace Coalition sponsored an anti-war

organization called 'Books Not Bombs.' President Bush said, 'Why do

you want to drop books on them?'"

Jay Leno

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:17 PM

Amos,

I've read many books and articles by Orwell and I never fail to be fascinated both by language and thought. This man changed quite a bit through the experience of WWII. He is, admirably and with good arguments, a socialist in, for instance, 'Road to Wigan pier' before the war. During the war he started to realise that compared to the Barbarian alternative there was a lot worth to defend in that far from perfect prewar capitalist-democratic Britain. I've got a lot both of prewar and postwar Orwell in me and am torn between the two positions.

Sometimes I envy those who never have a doubt who is right and who's wrong, mostly I don't. I sometimes wish the discussions in Mudcat had more contributions from people with more open doubts. But that could be a theme for another thread.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:19 PM

So much for your prior promise of 'no response', eh, Snort'n? Good to know what your word is worth, or did you just run out of white-out? Gotcha! Pitiful.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:33 PM

Troll-all right, you win, though I don't remember what the original debate was about. If I remember correctly, Mongolia was first incorporated into the Chinese nation when the Mongols conquered China, killing millions of Chinese peasants. Not justifying the Chinese by any means, but pointing out that Chinese history is a little murkier than American, by virtue of being much longer.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 01:59 PM

On one of the national news broadcasts I saw a segment on (what they portrayed as) the widespread use of 9/11 sloganeering on weapons and uniforms. An officer was quoted on the need for inspiration for the troops: They had to feel an inspiration that was tangible/manageable.

I thought this rather depressing, but then again I do believe that inspiration is far important than intellectualizing, given their circumstances.

Any of us who feel self-righteous or smug (difficult to perceive in oneself, but it's sometimes possible with deep reflection) over their "feelings" or opinions or positions while sitting at home isn't thinking hard enough.

Dan

MAKE FUCK NOT KILL

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 02:06 PM

Oh, and on the further issue of the civilians reading such (English language) comments, what comes to mind is a variation on those "If you can read this, then . . . " bumper stickers.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 03:25 PM

A message back to the Front

Dear Corporal Josh,

I appreciate you generosity for giving a writing credit to the dead soldiers. But for the sake of clarity, would you please tell me which
words are your and which are theirs. I see you are in Kuwait. When you do experience combat, when you kill an enemy or are wounded, will you please tell us how you feel then? It may well change your point of view. A lot of veterans from the last big war the USA fought were disappointed in the government and the generals. But it was people like you who paid the price.

I'd really like to thank you, you really feel you are protecting us, that thought is really kind. I am not so sure that what you are doing will bring us more security or more terror.

The people who have sent you over there have made your job a lot more difficult. They've not been at all clear about the reasons. In their arrogance they have sent you there less prepared than they could have been they have planned based upon popular uprising doing a lot of the work. They let Iraqis rebels die withing sight of their guns the last time yet are are so convinced of their righteousness that they expected the survivors and witnesses to get up and fight again. Through insults and bullying, they have robbed you of bases and resourses which could have made your mission safer and less bloody. Even one Muslim country fighting by your side could save a lot of lives on both sides.

In your poem you say we are protected by the best. You are young and proud and you need to believe that for your confidence. Keep this in mind though, there are some young men on the other side who feel exactly the same way. There were a lot of young men in Viet Nam who thought that their training and technology would keep them safe. There are fifty thousand names on a wall in Washington of those who also were the best.

We know you want to save the world, so do we. We know you are doing the right thing. Your job is important and you are doing it to the best of your abilities, without a hidden agenda and without greed We know that you Marines are very very good at what you do. I wish we could have the same confidence in our leaders.

I'm sure that you didn't mean to call all war protestors cowards. You will be pleased to know that when I feel that my country or my freedom needs protection from without. I'll wear the boots and carry a gun. Right now I believe that this country needs protection from it own leaders. So I'm speaking out.

Rob Dale, and all of the soldiers, women and children who died because of the blunders of leaders and generals.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 03:38 PM

Wolfgang:

Very well said. Some kinds of certainty are luxuries paid for by the suspension of thought, eh?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:04 PM

So if you are watching a television screen and a picture of a soldier with "Kill 'em all" on his helmet comes up, you are standing too close to him?

The point I'm making is, a slogan like that gives a clear message - "The army this man belongs to is here to kill civilians" is what it is saying, and that is not a good message to give people you want to win over to your side. It's also not a true message, I'm sure, so far as the vast majority of soldiers are concerned. Very likely it isn't even true of the individual soldier concerned - though I think it might be reckless to risk putting him in a situation where he might act out his fantasies.

And I think that the suggestion that colluding with that kind of thing on the grounds of "the need for inspiration for the troops" is way off line. It's encouraging the kind of attitudes that threaten to undermine the whole stated purpose of this invasion. It's a way of thinking that is likely to mean more dead civilians, and more dead soldiers among the invasion force.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:14 PM

I thought of that "watching it on TV" point, too, but didn't want to do a three-in-a-row posting.

I don't disagree with anything you've said above or just now. They make a big deal about not displaying U.S. flags as an indication to the civilians that they are not a force of invaders/conquerors. Talk about your mixed messages.

I only added a simple, "but nobody's shooting at me" observation.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 04:59 PM

Just got round to checking your link above, Snort'n, out of idle curiousity. Did you forget to take your haloperidol again? What the hell am I supposed to have to do with some dickheads desecrating a cemetery in France?

That and your rambling, incoherent temper-tantrum about all those mean and nasty "'peace' folks" that are out to get you- didn't realize you saw yourself as such a victim. Your attempt to damn me by association with your list of nasties is really amusing- inept and bogus though it may be. You really are completely, utterly clueless. Also, do try for some consistency: either we're a bunch of cowardly wusses, or we go around assaulting soldiers; you can't have it both ways.

Do get back on your meds- for all our sakes.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:05 PM

Point taken, Kevin, problem being that the "stated purpose" of the envasion is completely bogus.

Just noticedd the "e" for "i" typo - but think I'll let it stand.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:09 PM

Jack the Sailor. i suppose that you feel that you had to write your letter back so that your particular point of view. You had every right to do so and that right is one of the things that young men like Josh sign up to defend. He is about to go and lay his life on the line in a cause that he obviously feels is just.
If your letter causes him or any of his fellows to doubt their leaders at a critical moment, causing injury or death, it is my hope that you will somehow know and that the knowledge of that will haunt you to your grave.
If you had tried, I don't think you could ahve written a more damaging piece or one that was in poorer taste.
I eagerly await your "defense" of your action. It will be interesting in the extreme to see how you justify it.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:34 PM

Troll-Do you honestly believe that JtS's letter could cause a soldier such a crisis of faith that he would be unable to defend himself, or are you just trying to score rhetoric points by making an honest expression of opinion look dangerous?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:52 PM

Rhetoric points mostly but I wasn't trying to make it look dangerous. I just feel that it was in very poor taste and gave a hypothetical reason why.
Let me also say, however, that many things go through your mind in combat and no one needs something like that to complicate an already perilous situation. Every soldier knows, at least in the last couple of wars, that not everyone back home agrees with the war. But kids like Josh and his buddies, who have written what is essentially a plea for support as they go off to risk their lives, do not need to hear it. What they need to hear is that they have the support of the folks back home.
JtS may have been expressing an honest opinion and he had every right to do so. It's just that sometimes it's better to remain silent and I feel that this was one of those times. His letter showed -to me- much more concern for making his political point than for the mental welfare of the young man he addressed it to.
As I said before, I felt and still feel that it was in very poor taste. I hope this clears up any confusion you may have had.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 05:55 PM

Troll-He did, however say "I'd really like to thank you" and "We know you are doing the right thing." Sounds like support to me. I suppose it might not be viewed in that light, but tehe intent is there.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:00 PM

"Those who profess to favor freedom, and yet depreciate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground. They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters. This struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle! Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did, and it never will. Find out just what people will submit to, and you have found out the exact amount of injustice and wrong which will be imposed upon them; and these will continue until they are resisted with either words or blows, or with both. The limits of tyrants are prescribed by the endurance of those whom they oppress." -- Frederick Douglass, August 4, 1857.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: TIA
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:28 PM

Troll's 5:52 PM post raises a damn good question.

{my words, not his, to follow}

How can one vocally and publicly oppose the war (our absolute right, and, to many, an obligation) without risking that those who are too young, too ideologically different, too short on the full text of the debate, too damn busy staying the f--- alive, or too whatever will not understand your political, ideological, economic or humantiarian point, and just take it personally? Is it even possible in a world where incomplete video bites are transmitted live across the globe? And, if it isn't, which is more likely to save lives, lessen suffering, and promote world peace - anti-war activities, or shuttin' up and pretending to go along?

I got no good answers.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 06:33 PM

Lurker, have you heard the expression, "Damning with faint praise"?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:13 PM

The intent was to say that I support the young men but not the Administration. Some protesters of Viet Nam war were stupid and cruel enough to blame the soldiers for the war. I am not.

That first letter was not a request for support, it was a political statement. He is in Kuwait and claimed to speak for dead men. I am in Georgia. I tried to point out that there are other dead people who need to be thought of. I pointed out that thinking that he is the best doesn't shield him from the enemy. I pointed out that there are brave people at home doing what they feel is right. I'm not pointing it out to Corporal Josh, I'm point that out to people like you. If you think that is in poor taste, Troll, then so be it. Except for a few typos I'll stand by every word.


And Troll
with regard the stuff about a note in the Mudcat "Haunting me to my grave" could you be more childish and melodramitic? At least it tells me how much creedance to give to everything else you say.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 07:22 PM

TIA, your question is a good one. One thing to remember that the War mongers can't wait to get boys in harms way for that reason. It could well be the reason they started the war a month before all of their troops were in place. The thing about Rumsfeld's rolling start is that it is a start. It is very difficult for a country to stop a war once it has been started.

Think of all the young men who died in Viet Nam because presidents and generals were to proud to admit mistakes. Who kept the war going long after it was lost because they didn't want to seem weak.

The people who are running this war are using propaganda on the Iraqis, the rest of the world and on people in this country. Why else would they claim that opposing the war or questioning their plans is "anti American"?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Forum Lurker
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 08:38 PM

TIA-It's a very good question, and one which is answered differently in every case. I would respond that in this case, it is most important that the administration realize that the war is not fully supported, and the people know that it is unjust, so that it is not repeated. I think our soldiers are morally stalwart enough to defend themselves and each other, even if they do not believe that everyone supports them; I think that everyone else objecting to war protests on behalf of the soldiers, with the thankfully rare exceptions of those protestors who do blame the soldiers, should let us get our message out, in the interests of the freedoms we all care about.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:29 PM

"In a general response I would say that "you" represents the supposed "peace" folks who antagonize others, start fights and then say they were not wanting that, stray from topic to keep the fight going, are assholes and not truly looking for anything but a confrontation, infer that which is not stated or implied to return to jingoistic taunting behavior, and have a rabid need to "win" with the last word at all costs. "You" also are the folks that destroy proerty in the name of civil disobedience, physically attack those who countermarch, physically assault men and women in uniform as a "statement" of peace, make anonymous threats over the phone to people who have children fighting in Iraq, are bigots, racist, gay bashing, despising of anything that does not exactly meet your standard of what should be. "

Boy, Norton, are you ever confused. (It's called projection, I believe.)

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Bobert
Date: 02 Apr 03 - 10:29 PM

Well danged, Teribus! I oughtta stick my head in here more often. Heck of a food fight.

Hey, I din't want your A,B,C & D to go unappreciated. What kind of slide rule did you use on that? My Wes Ginny slide rule would like to spend a few minutes with yours in a dark alley... Jus funnin'.

But really, if you are wondering what you're getting for you tax dollars this weeks from Bush's PR folks it's the old "Support the Troops" crapola from the Vietnam days. Same tune.

"Yer either with us 'er yerz aginst us!"

I'd find it funny if it weren't such a simplistic, divisive, controling joke that was being played on a dumbed down population.

Yeah, you can bet that the great *Spitting Lie* is not far behind!

This ain't about supporting troops. It's about Bush and his warmonging cronies who stand to get rich from a bunch of working class American kids get killed and maimed while doing the same to folks in Iraq.

Yeah, I support out troops. Bring 'em, home, put Bush on trial for genocide, and get someone in the White House who has a better vision of the the US's role in leading the world into a *much better place*.

But, T-Bird, don't think for one moment that you're ABC's exercize has not gone unappreciated!

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 12:08 AM

JtS you are correct. I should not have made the "haunt you to your grave" remark. It was a wasted effort since I should have realized that expressing your opinion was much more important to you than any damage you might inflict on a frightened kid. How very mature of you.
That you will no longer place any credence in anything I might say does not disturb me in the least. In fact, it could be construed as a compliment. Your approval or disapproval of my thoughts and utterances is not a requirement for my continued well-being.
If you should hook the giant radio telescope at Arrecibo, P.R. to the Hubble Space Telescope, you would STILL be unable to detect how very little your opinion of me or anything I do affects my life.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 12:39 AM

Amos, I wouldn't have been at that checkpoint in the first place, so it's hard to say. I think I'd have just gotten out of the way, to be honest.

And thanks. But I might not make it to 30, if Norton1 has anything to say about it. :)

Bobert, if they didn't think they might have to kill someone in the military, they aren't very bright. And that there has been only one American conscientious objector so far (that I know of), tells me that most of them really don't mind killing Iraqis all that much. Sorry, but I have no sympathy for such people.

And Norton1 drives a Harley, not a walker, eh, Troll? OK, then. Let me amend my earlier statement: "I wouldn't fight you, no matter how hard you hit me with your white-trash motorbike."

Better?

---Lepus Rex

PS, Kat, yet again: Yeah, I got the "barely" thing the first time... I was kidding around. :)

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 01:06 AM

"It was a wasted effort since I should have realized that expressing your opinion was much more important to you than any damage you might inflict on a frightened kid."

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA