BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 01:40 AM

JtS, after a long discussion with Skeptic, I have come to the realization that what we have here is a difference in perception.
You read Joshuas poem and saw a political statement that you felt needed a rebuttal.
I read it and saw a 20-year-old kid asking for reassurance.
Your perception was colored by the fact that you are actively Anti-war and I guess that it's pretty important to you that your thoughts on the subject be known
Mine was colored by the realization that it could have been written by my son, who just turned 20.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:26 AM

Troll, I am very pleased that you have stopped the rhetoric. You are very lucid and persuasive when you talk more openly. I hope you appreciate the following explaination. I don't think that we are as far apart as it may seem.

The kid is calling protestors cowards. Cowards who don't love their country. Its a very common attitudes among the arm chair war hawks who often frequent these forums. I'm not actively anti war. but if that kid wants to send a message that he thinks that people who protest the war are against him. I want to see him told that there are other issues and that those who are against the war are not against him.

The protestors against Viet Nam saved a lot of lives. The government didn't give the troops the support they needed and they didn't fight the war to win. They expected the South Vietnamese to rise up and defeat the North just as Cheney expected the shi'ites to defeat Saddam. The Ba'ath party and Saddam's paramilitary seem to be very similar to the Viet Cong and no doubt Saddam considers himself to be at least the equal of Ho Chi Mihn. I don't want the kids over there now to go through what that generation did. General Powell's doctrine for the last war was overwhelming force. Mr. Rumsfeld's is do more with less. Lets not lets Mr. Rumsfeld's pride cost American lives.

Is your son in a war zone. Has he been told that those protests are about him? If that is so please tell him that the vast majority of people who are criticizing the war realize that it wasn't his decision. They are grateful for what he does and they will be glad to welcome him home when this is over. And tell him to watch his ass because even the best can die when their unit is outnumbered on enemy turf.

I'd be for the war if it were being run better. But I'm really concerned about the ability and credibility of the administration. I would like for them, to stop waffling about the reasons, to stop telling lies and spreading propaganda that no one believes and I would like for Rumsfeld in particular, to be a man and take responsibility as Secretary of Defense and to stop spreading the the blame and the heat down the line to his generals. He is setting a horrible example, an example that I believe the vast majority of US officers way have to much honor to copy, but a bad example never the less.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 05:41 AM

My son is not in the military. He is a professional musician who is presently working in Japan. But there is very little difference between a 20-year-old-marine and a 20-year-old fiddle player when they feel let down and alone. I've had experience with both. There is, of course, the danger quotient, which is of some importance to someone older, but to kids, worries over the pregnant wife and worries over death or injury can be of nearly equal importance.
As I said, I've had a bit of experience in dealing with both.
These young Marines are taught love of Corps and Country above all else. It HAS to be done this way. They cannot question their orders or the reasons behind them because,if they do, they and -infinitely worse- their buddies may die. This, BTW, is common to all military organizations; it's just a little more developed in the Marines.
So, when they here of anti-war protests, they can only conclude one of two things. One, the protesters are anti-American, or, two, they are cowards.
With the certainty of youth, they can see no other options and their interactions with each other reinforce these beliefs. Any attempts to convince them otherwise are generally futile.
If you thinl this isn't so, try to convince the average 20-year-old that they shouldn't drink and drive, or smoke, or that a boom-box car with the gain all the way up will damage their hearing. You might as well save your breath.
The things I warned my daughter against at 20, she did anyway. At 30, she came to me and admitted that I had been right, but at 20, she didn't want to hear it.
The same thing applies with our young poet. He doesn't want to hear - and he will not hear- that there are two sides to the question.He only wants to hear that we think that he is doing the right thing and that he's an ok person. To say anything else does not instruct. It only alienates or worse, causes self-doubt at a time when he needs all the self-confidence he can muster.
Because he won't decide not to go. Right now, the Corps and his buddies are his world and he will die before he lets them down. This is what I was talking about and this is what I think you don't understand.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 08:44 AM

Sorry, Troll, but no, it does not HAVE to be done that way. Man and women can be (and are!)trained up into an efficient fighting force without brainwashing them into imbecility. The two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: TIA
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 09:15 AM

Troll, I think I understand and agree with (sort of) your point. You said "These young Marines are taught love of Corps and Country above all else. It HAS to be done this way. They cannot question their orders or the reasons behind them..." I understand that.
But, I hear people using that thought as the first step down a very slippery slope:

1) Marines are conditioned to not question orders.

2) therefore, they cannot understand why civilians back home are questioning the orders,

3) therefore civilians who question the orders are undermining the Marines,

4) therefore the civilians questioning the orders are committing treason,

5) therefore, the only patriotic course of action is for everyone (civilian and military) to not question the orders or the reasons behind them.

I said it was a first step, but as I write this, I realize that I have heard many people in the last month take all 5 steps.

People are following these five steps to a scarey new USA that was never intended by our great founders.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:10 AM

I doubt very much if brainwashed soldiers are in fact more effective soldiers. My impression is that this is how some of the most effective fighting units in the world see things as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Troll
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:28 AM

I never meant to suggest that they are "brainwashed" but if anyone choses to interpret it that way, so be it. I will say that I give a lot more credence in matters of this kind to the opinions of those who actually have some military (not necessarily combat) experience and not just their ideas are more likely to agree with mine.
It is simply that it is not easy to explain military training to someone who has never experienced it.
Do we have any ex DIs or Boot Pushers out there who would like to make a stab?
Greg, I never suggested "brainwashing them into imbecility" but a certain amount of indoctrination and discipline is necessary. You cannot hold committee meetings in a firefight. I think the Russians tried something of the sort under Lenin with the Political Commissars and quickly gave it up. I could be wrong tho. It's been many years since I read any Soviet history.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 11:50 AM

a certain amount of indoctrination and
discipline is necessary. You cannot hold committee meetings in a firefight

Of course it is, and of course you can't. Absolutely no disagreement from me. But if indeed the result is that they can only conclude one of two things. One, the protesters are anti-American, or, two, they are cowards then something is obviously amiss with their brainwashing err, training.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 02:01 PM

As necessary as that sort of training and fighting mentality may be, it is equally necessary for people of conscience to stand up to their government when they percieve it to be doing something wrong. As others have pointed out, the people who protested the Vietnam War helped bring that war to an end. Even some of the top people responsible for that war now agree that that war was wrong.

So the reality of war protesters is something those brave young people fighting overseas are just going to have to learn to live with. I'm sure they are up to the challenge.

I think that when people over here start flinging a lot of angry sounding rhetoric at the people who oppose the war, they aren't helping the young people overseas one little bit. All they are doing is further poisoning the environment that those young people will be coming home to. I think they would be helping those young people a lot more if they would use a less vitriolic way of trying to make their points. The bigger the chasm between people here at home, the more the returing service people will suffer when they get back.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 02:51 PM

Troll, Did you see "Black Hawk Down" One of the Delta force guy tells a young Ranger that Once the fighting starts politics goes out the window. You are fighting for the guy next to you. I don't think what I have said could possibly make a marine forget that. The equation changes when you and your buddies are relying on one another for their lives.

Carol is right about one thing. Deamonizing a third the people the kid is supposed to be protecting doesn't help any. The strongest "anti protestor" rhetoric, seems to come from middle aged men. Men feel the need to attack, they can't get at Bin Laden so they build up fantasies in their mind about the protesters being agents of the enemy and they therefor. These men get immense satisfaction from fighting with the protestors. That behavior is just as bad for the young men as the anti war protests. We are all be much better off with civil discussion, like the discussion we are now having in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:02 PM

Reasoned protest is an excellent idea, and as applicable to the "anti-war" protesters who stand outside the gate of our local Air Force Base and yell "murderer" to the familes of deployed servicemen and women as it is to those who would interfere with lawful dissent.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Steve in Idaho
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:06 PM

This from our little thug Lepus -

"If you ever want real violence, boy, come to me."

Yep - skin heads are really bad - I'm a quivering boy - just a quivering - you and greg have me really worried here - couple of bottom feeders that should have been aborted early in the process.

Sorry about the turn JtS (puky retort to the kids BTW) but I don't think another thread will start up here - too much lumping to get much of anything sorted out.

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:12 PM

Reasoned protest is an excellent idea, and as applicable to the "anti-war" protesters who stand outside the gate of our local Air Force Base and yell "murderer" to the familes of deployed servicemen and women as it is to those who would interfere with lawful dissent.

You'll get no disagreement from me on that point, artbrooks. And you won't ever see me condoning that sort of behavior on the part of "anti-war" protesters, either.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Kegler300
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:21 PM

Lepus Rex and Greg F - you two are friggin idiots! Liberal halfwitted scumbags that don't have a clue! Does your mommy know you two are playing with her computer? Idiots...

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock......
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:21 PM

Lupus Rex, you don't know what your talking about and you obviously have no operational knoweldge of the military. You keep you delusional ideas about the military. It would be folly to try and educate someone who does not wish to learn. I just thank God every single day that their are still enough people in the USA to get the job done while slackers like you bitch and whine, drink beer, and go to your important jobs at 7-11 every day, or go to some terrorist supporting college to get a daily dose of America hating 101. Lupus Rex, I spit on you face you ass wipe!

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Guest, Teufelhunden0311
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:26 PM

Lepus, Lepus, Lepus.....
I just have to jump in on this one.......your ignorance is unprecedented. Your arrogance unjustified.
Your lack of patriotism revolting.
And your nickname completely laughable.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Guest, Teufelhunden0311
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:28 PM

Greetings Rock and Norton

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Marinefromhell
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:30 PM

What a bunch of wussyboys on this thread. Norton1 told me there were holier than thou igno's here. Christ on a Crutch, Lupussy hex, Hope you sleep well tonight--hope you get enough momma tit too.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:33 PM

Norton1 these people are laughable.
Have any of you tre hugging, peace loving fraks even had the experience of being in a third world country? Let alone growing up in one?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,GuitarPlayer116
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:34 PM

Stop being such a little girl Lepus Rex.

It's no wonder you play such crap music.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:34 PM

Hey Teufelhunden, we took the Baghdad Aiport today. Hooah!

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:35 PM

My, my, my. Devil Hound is standing on the Rock and yelling at King Rabbit. These guys are probably working for Avon.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:37 PM

Beleive me you little pussy, you wouldn't want none of this. Now, tell where your women are before I bitch slap the shit out of you.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Colorado
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:48 PM

.....I certainly hope the musicians who would wish ill will on others on this forum are not from Colorado, as I DO happen to like some folk music.

Let me know if you are, so that I do not patronize those that have psychological issues.

I appreciate music, though I have little or no knowledge of the art.

Commute on my bicycle, wear Birkenstocks, recycle, etc. But a Marine, to the bone.

I know what I like, but I do not pass judgement, or wish I'll will to those that I don't understand.

'Work for Avon'? Maybe a few of us would care to identify our professional endeavors, not that it should matter...................

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock.....
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:50 PM

Let's keep'em guessing for awhile........long live James Taylor!

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:50 PM

Steve, are these people your friends from the Marine Forum?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:54 PM

Hey Norton thanks for not threatening to beat me up. Its a start.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:56 PM

Carol, my guess would be that it's all the same person, and he/she has just gotten home from middle school.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 03:58 PM

Nice try artyboy, that may be a tactic you use, but in this case you can beleive this buddy. There can only be one Rock, one Alpha Male, and that would be me....line up ladies.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:07 PM

Children, could we be civil? You are showing me that you are likely not combat vets at all, but rather a bunch of wannabe's. Norton, I have great respect for you, but if these are your "friends" would you please call them off? This type of discourse does nothing to further your cause. Lepus and Greg are obviously talking through their hats, and have not had any experience in that to which they speak.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:09 PM

I see that you men are visiting us from this forum:

Marine Open Discussion

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:09 PM

And we have definetly not just gottne home from any school...we long ago graduated school, most of us from the school of hard knocks.
And some from the Island and some form the West Coast...but all in the same gun club!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock...
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:13 PM

And I graduated in the hills of Kentucky, I'm not a Marine. I got no beef with any of you except the ass hats who while having the freedom to be stupid, they object to the fact that we have the perfect right to bring it to thier attention.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock...
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:15 PM

Big Mick, don't get me going dude. I am a combat vet, point blank.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:16 PM

I've got to tell you The Rock, behavior like that of you and your buddies certainly doesn't give me very much confidence in our troops overseas if you are representative of them in any way. I certainly hope you are not.

Steve. You have gone completely round the bend. You need some help. I suggest you get it soon.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:16 PM

Thanks, Norton1, for inviting your flamer pals. You're such a dear. ;}

---Lepus Rex

Norton1's invitiation:

Want to tell a couple of Bottom feeding idiots what you think?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The link below will take you to the Mudcat Forum. It's a place where folk musicians hang out. Two individuals are just sick puppies - maybe they need a dose of you all to assist them in venting their rage. The two in particular are Lepus Rex and Greg F - read the whole thread before you reply. You do not need to register and if you put no name in you will show as a guest.

Have a riot - I should have given you, ipscone, this a long time ago. Oh well - never too late -

Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:18 PM

Norton, I have just visited the site. Brother, you need to apologize. That was inexcusable. I am very disappointed in you and your fellow Marines. When you do what you did, you lowered yourselves to the same level as those you criticise. Lepus and Greg should only strike you as young people talking about something which they have no experience at, and as know it alls that will learn as they grow. To be sure their comments are stupid, but why bother? And are we now going to have a bunch of young, hotshit, full of themselves, Marines patrolling the Mudcat and blasting anyone who doesn't fit their narrow view of what is right? Are they going to start attacking me and my patriotism because I don't fit their view of what is right? Where is their sense of honor?

How could you?

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock....
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:20 PM

Gee, I wonder why you don't talk to Lupus Rex the same way. Okay I can tone it down. You don't have confidence in our troops, hell lady, what else do they have to do to earn it? They are doing excellent work while you and your guitar pickin friends sit back here and snipe at them. How about a little support? A little encouragement for christs sake? Is that too much to expect? What ever happend to support the troops even if you disagree with the war? I frankly don't care what you think of me. I know what I've done, I know what I've sacraficed, and when I hear people talk out their ass, it gets my dander up know what I mean? I can be nice CarolC, I really can, give me a chance, Pleeeeeeeese!

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:23 PM

You know nothing about me The Rock. So don't presume. Check out my posts in the beginning of this thread. But when I said what I did in those posts, I wasn't talking about people like you.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:25 PM

Guest, Quit pretending your 10 people unless you are seriously ill with schizophrenia, which then you can be forgiven.
McGrath- I have heard this sentiment too many times from people who are pro-war, "We should just wipe all those Iraqi bastards off the face of the earth." I do not mean to generalize here. I am just saying I have heard it, and I can't see a reason for saying it except racism being involved.
I have a problem when generalizations about pro-peace people are made. For the most part, we are pro-troops and have been labeled by media anti-troops. I do not want harm to come to any of the children of this war. I do not want the violence and death and blood on anyones hands. I have seen what Vietnam did to the vets. I have seen too many fucked up heads after that war and I don't like the idea of this new generation of kids having to face the same head shit the Vietnam vets did. I hope it doesn't happen. I hope they come home sooner than later. I tried to be a part of saving the troops from going into this war, now all I can do is be a part of trying to get them home.
Peace. Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:27 PM

Okay, how about a clean slate? Maybe I grouped you in with those two shitbags. Can we be friends CarolC? First you gotta tell me you respect the military though or we'll get nowhere fast.....

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Big Mick
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:27 PM

Rock, I could care less what you are. What makes you think you have a lock on that? Or is that some kind of threat? Trust me, you bark up the wrong tree with me on that one.

Your disruption of this conversation shows a lack of good judgement. The best thing to do with know it all jerks is to ignore them.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:27 PM

So Norton you invited a bunch of you friends to come a call out some playground names. Please tell me how this supports the kids overseas.

Rock its kinda hard to believe that "alpha male". It's my experience that the more scared a dog is the more he barks. You are barking like a toy poodle. Ebbie is a woman, I doubt that she has any women for you. Its also my experience that guys who brag about their manhood like you do have "problems" down below. Perhaps this will help. For the Rock

I know all retired ex marines aren't like y'all. It's kinda interesting how so many immature grown men found each other.

Now, do ya want to have a dicsussion or are ya gonna call us some more names. I seem to recall a rhyme from childhood, something about sticks and stones....

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:27 PM

This is for Greg F's benefit....just a sample of his ignorance.

From 1927 to 1941, a unit of the United States Marine Corps, the Fourth Marines, was assigned to Shanghai, China, where its members were able to observe firsthand some of the events that led to World War Two. The Fourth Marines sailed to Shanghai from their home base in San Diego, California in February 1927 in order to protect American citizens and property in Shanghai's International Settlement. Initially, the threat to the Americans came from a conflict internal to China, but, within a few years, it evolved into one resulting from the tensions between China and Japan.

During their fourteen years in Shanghai, the Fourth Marines were exposed to activities that would not gain the full attention of most Americans until the United States became directly involved in the war. Although the Fourth Marines were a relatively small unit (consisting at various times of between 1,200 to 1,600 men) awash in a sea of 3,000,000 Chinese nationals and tens of thousands of other foreign citizens living in Shanghai, they affected the local economy as well as local opinions of Americans, serving as "unofficial ambassadors" to the local populace. Likewise, their opinions of Chinese citizens and culture were shaped by their experiences in Shanghai.

The traditional role of the Marines has been one of a seagoing assault force, as opposed to one of a permanent ground force. Therefore, the Fourth Marines' prolonged presence in Shanghai was rather unique. Extended periods of military inactivity and relegation to the status of a quasi-police force in a war zone had a strong impact on the perceptions and morale of the members of the Fourth Marines. Their actions and opinions were directly shaped by the role to which they were assigned in Shanghai.

However the Corps does not teach us about our history?
Now, for Lupussy, I am not an aging man, I'll give you my address and then let's see if you can come here and "whoop me", kid.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Guest Teufelhunden 0311
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:29 PM

I'm sorry, that last one is from me

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock....
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:30 PM

Nope, my posts were intended for the two shitbags who know who they are. Big Mick, please don't beat me up. Jack the Sailor. Okay, I'm ready to get serious CarolC okay. Fair enough. What do you want to know about me?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:30 PM

The Rock, I have tremendous respect for military people who have honor, dignity, and integrity.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,asshatiusMaximus
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:33 PM

You people need to get down on your knees and thank whatever god you might worship that people are willing to give their lives so you might spout off the sewage I have read here!

Some say musicians are enlightened after reading through this forum I find this very hard to believe! Have any of you ever visited an oppressed Third World Country? I suspect that you are to comfortable in your nice soft life to visit anywhere but your local Starbucks!

Put down your signs with your senseless slogans because you look stupid holding them and chanting like a bunch of trolls! You have given nothing to this great Nation you only take, take, take because that is your way! You are ungrateful and do not appreciate the right that were bought in other peoples blood and lives, You squander what has been given to you and you only think of yourselves!

I for one am sick and tired of hearing you run your sewers! I am not alone and I am proud to say that we outnumber you!! Open your eyes! You are a bunch of self centered whiny brats that need a spanking! You hate this country, You spit on our way of life! I challenge you to find somewhere else to live! I hear Iran is looking for some "Artists" Go ahead put your money where your mouths are, Or are you too cowardly to do this? Coward now that is a word you should know well!

I know you don't care and you will not take to heart anything said here, You will go back to sipping your Starbucks and smoking your weed, Just think about who gave you your freedoms.

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,The Rock..
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:33 PM

And I have tremendous respect for people who have tremendous respect for the military people who have honor and dignity. I will say this one more time. I was flaming those two buttnuggets. Not you CarolC or Big Mick or Jack the Sailor, you guys were collateral damage. Now, I'll just leave if you want it don't matter to me. But if you want to verify I'm who I say I am, you guys can ask me any question you want and I'll try to answer it. Maybe then we can clear the air, how bout it?

Subject: RE: BS: Marine Message from the Front Lines
From: GUEST,Guest Teufelhunden 0311
Date: 03 Apr 03 - 04:36 PM

Hey Jack the bitch boy, there is no such thing as an EX Marine