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Stagolee: the full story

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STAGALEE 3
STAGOLEE
STAGOLEE 2


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Roger the Skiffler 09 May 03 - 09:33 AM
Noreen 09 May 03 - 09:47 AM
masato sakurai 09 May 03 - 11:09 AM
masato sakurai 09 May 03 - 11:19 AM
songs2play 09 May 03 - 11:21 AM
Renegade 09 May 03 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,Mastermad 15 Mar 10 - 11:22 AM
RWilhelm 15 Mar 10 - 12:38 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Mar 10 - 01:20 PM
GUEST,Mastermad 15 Mar 10 - 05:55 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 15 Mar 10 - 10:01 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 16 Mar 10 - 10:00 PM
GUEST,Mastermad 30 Mar 10 - 04:35 PM
RWilhelm 31 Mar 10 - 04:26 PM
GUEST,Paul Slade 01 Apr 10 - 02:59 AM
GUEST,mastermad 12 Apr 10 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Masdtermad 27 Apr 10 - 02:15 PM
Amos 27 Apr 10 - 02:24 PM
Mark Ross 27 Apr 10 - 09:44 PM
mousethief 27 Apr 10 - 10:57 PM
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Subject: Stagolee: the full story
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 09 May 03 - 09:33 AM

Long illustrated article in Today's UK Guardian newspaper on the influence of the Stagolee legend right through into rap music by Cecil Brown author of a forthcoming (29th May in UK, already out -April- in the States)book on the full story of Lee Shelton whose case gave rise to the song.
Stagolee shot Billyby Cecil Brown, Harvard University Press , isbn 0674010566 £19.95. (Guardian price inc P&P, Amazon UK quote US edition as $29.95 list price, UK £16.74 plus P&P).

RtS


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: Noreen
Date: 09 May 03 - 09:47 AM

Wonder if I could justify buying this for my (school) library?

:0)


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: masato sakurai
Date: 09 May 03 - 11:09 AM

The article "Godfather of Gangsta" (Friday May 9, 2003; The Guardian).

~Masato


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: masato sakurai
Date: 09 May 03 - 11:19 AM

Harvard University Press - Stagolee Shot Billy


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: songs2play
Date: 09 May 03 - 11:21 AM

He was a Baaaaaaaaaad Man


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: Renegade
Date: 09 May 03 - 02:46 PM

Those interested may want to check out Greil Marcus' "Mystery Train" for his narration/investigation of the Stagger Lee mythology.

The book's a great read regardless. I think all his are.
Bill


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: GUEST,Mastermad
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 11:22 AM

His real name was James Stagger/Stacker Lee Shelton.
All recordings under different names are coming from a nursery rhyme (12/1895) called Bad man Stack-O-Lee. So, it's not a traditional.
Archibal Gross (aka 'Archie Boy') who recorded Stag A'Lee (pt 1/pt 2) three times (Imperial 5068, May 1950; 5358, July 1955 and 5563, Jan. 1959 (all signed by Leon T. Gross, Sr.) was Billy Lyons' great-grandfather (of the 3rd generation).
Nowadays, no body knows if Billy died on 12/24/1895 or 12/25/1895.
I really think Billy died on 12/25/1895 due to his wounds on the Xmas Eve at least 2 hours after 10pm.
The first ever recording of Stak O' Lee Blues was cut circa 1900 by Long Cleve Reed & Little ('Papa') Harvey Hull - Down Home Boys (including Sunny Wilson) but unissued at the time until May 1927 on BLACK PATTI 8030-B (American Recording Company/ARC).
MTDSKLB


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: RWilhelm
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 12:38 PM

Billy Lyons's death certificate is dated 12/27/95. (You can see it here: That Bad Man Stagolee )

It gives the date of the shooting as 12/25/95.


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 01:20 PM

Too many threads, repeating each other, on the shooting of Billy Lyons by Lee Shelton.
The first known song about the killing dates to 1903, and was oral from St. Louis.

Much detail in thread 3018, linked above as "Origins, Stagger Lee."

In Cecil Brown's book, the shooting took place Christmas night, the 25th. His death certificate is dated 12-27-95; it states he was shot 12-25-95. He died about 4 AM in hospital, thus early 12-26-95.


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: GUEST,Mastermad
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 05:55 PM

My goodness! Did Lyons died on 12/26/95 or on 12/27/95 ?
Some newspapers wrote he was burried on 12/28/1895. So, only one day after his death ? That's the question...
"The first known song about the killing dates to 1903, and was oral from St. Louis". : the nursery rhyme dates from late Dec. 1895...
Mastermad


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Mar 10 - 10:01 PM

Nursery Rhyme and source?

No mention in Cecil Brown's Stagolee Shot Billy, Harvard Univ. Press, 2003 nor in The Traditional Bllad Index.


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 10:00 PM

The Mastermad put the answer in thread 127217; my answer is there.


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: GUEST,Mastermad
Date: 30 Mar 10 - 04:35 PM

Billy Lyons was presumed to be a white policeman (a sheriff or something else ?) : what do you think of it ?
When Lyons died he was 25 y.o. So, he was born in 1870.
Apparently, their house hold names are "Leon T. Gross" from father to son : Billy Lyons ("Jr.") and I presume Archibald 'Archie Boy''s
h.o.n. was "Leon T. Gross III". What a mess because it is not described anywhere (I've have never seen any article or topic talking about that fact).
Greetings...


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: RWilhelm
Date: 31 Mar 10 - 04:26 PM

Mastermad, I think you should read _Stagolee Shot Billy_ by Cecil Brown (mentioned several times here already.) It is the most comprehsnsive work on Stagolee and it contradicts what you are saying. Can you tell us where you got your information?


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: GUEST,Paul Slade
Date: 01 Apr 10 - 02:59 AM

De Lyons Sleeps Tonight: Stagger Lee

Did someone mention the full story?


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: GUEST,mastermad
Date: 12 Apr 10 - 10:45 AM

Many body rack their brains how to be sure of Lyons' and Lee's real house hold names...
Billy Lyons alias William Lyons died on 12/27/1895 (death certificate available on the Internet.)
Stack Lee alias Shelton Lee. (not Lee Shelton or Lee Sheldon) is also mentionned on Lyons' death certificate...
Stagger greetz ;)
M.


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: GUEST,Masdtermad
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 02:15 PM

Lee Shelton...
12/27 (27 is a typo) - please read 12/26
When Lyons died he was 31 y.o. not 25 because
he was born somewhere in Missouri in 1864 (I own
the Saint Louis County death certificate. You can
tell me how to send it here...
Greetings from W. Europe ;)
M.


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: Amos
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 02:24 PM

Local color from the day:

"Stack Lee Shelton was the owner of a St. Louis saloon/brothel called the Modern Horseshoe Club and was a well known figure in the black neighborhood of Deep Morgan. He belonged to a class of St. Louis pimps known as the "macks" who were famous for sporting a mode of dress that demanded attention. This is how Cecil Brown, in his book Stagolee Shot Billy, described Stack Lee's entrance to Bill Curtis's Saloon the night of the murder:

    "Shelton was dressed in a pair of tailored shoes know as 'St. Louis flats,' with almost no heels and long toes pointing upward. On the top of the toes were tiny mirrors that caught the electric light hanging overhead and sent sparkles upward. A pair of dove colored spats covered Shelton's shoe tops. Gray-striped pants hung over his spats. The flaps of his black box-back coat fell open to reveal an elaborately patterned red velvet vest and a yellow embroidered shirt with a celluloid standing collar that kept his chin high in the air. Knuckle-length sleeve's almost covered the gold rings on his manicured fingers; his left hand clutched the gold head of an ebony walking cane. the other hand took a long cigar out of his mouth. On his head was a high-roller, milk-white Stetson. Along the hatband was an embroidered picture of his favorite girl, Lillie Shelton."


Shelton saw his friend Billy Lyons standing at the bar and joined him for a drink. Lyons worked as a levee hand and did not dress with the flash of the macks. He was not a wealthy man but he was well connected, his sister was married to Henry Bridgewater, one of the richest black men in St. Louis, and a leader in the Republican Party.

Stack Lee Shelton and Billy Lyons drank and talked amiably most of the evening, but when the discussion turned to politics the exchange became heated. Billy was a Republican like his brother-in-law, Stack Lee was aligned with a growing faction of black St. Louis Democrats. Shelton grabbed Lyon's derby hat and broke the form. Lyons demanded six bits from Shelton to replace it. When Shelton refused, Lyon's grabbed Shelton's Stetson hat. Shelton drew his .44 Smith and Wesson and the saloon patrons scattered. He threatened to blow out Lyons' brains if he did not return the hat.

Lyons called his bluff, pulled out his knife saying, "You cockeyed son of a bitch, I'm going to make you kill me."

But Shelton wasn't bluffing. He shot Billy Lyons, snatched back his hat and coolly left the saloon.

Billy Lyons was taken to an infirmary, then moved to a hospital where he died at around 4 AM.

Stack Lee Shelton was home sleeping when police came to arrest him. He was released on $4000 bail."


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: Mark Ross
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 09:44 PM

My favorite version is still from Furry Lewis. I learned it from Dave Van Ronk,
"When you lose your money, learn to lose."


Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: Stagolee: the full story
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:57 PM

Great book. Great song.


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