BS: Laid off! What next?

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: gnu
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 06:30 AM

CLASSY!!! And a hoot too!

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Suffet
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 11:20 PM

Greetings:

Just a little update. After two years, my $386 per day consultant job ended, but I went out and got another one. The place that had hired me on an hourly basis for 4 hours per week offered to take me on up to two days per week, or whatever I could do and still keep my pension.

However, that new position won't start until September, so I decided to have some fun. I went back to one of my old work sites, sat down at what used to be my desk, and put in half a day's work before anyone questioned what I was doing there. A few people, including the security guard at the main entrance, gave me a perfunctory "Good morning," as if nothing had changed in two years. I spent the time finishing up some jobs, mostly computer data entry work and paperwork that someone I used to supervise had left half done before taking a few days off. I even made the necessary photocopies and filed them away in the proper cabinets. Then I left a note for the woman telling her what I had done and wishing her a good summer. She will find it when she returns after the Fourth of July.

At 12 noon, after about 4 hours, the director's secretary asked if I was coming back full time. I told her, "No, I'm only here for the morning." Then I left for lunch and never returned.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 11:10 PM

I know of many cases where people made redundant were hired back on part time consultantcy to do their old job for a while at higher rates of pay than before.

Makes you wonder about these cretins called "Economic Experts".

If they were so ****** brilliant, how can it be that they didn't see that their "cost cutting" moves would actually cost the company MORE, even if only in the short term, and if they DID forsee this - why didn't they publicly tell the people whose lives they screwed around? and the company they were "saving" money for? Which means that if they DIDN'T know what they were doing, why are they usually promoted after such an exercise and not sacked, and then "encouraged" to work for macca's?

Gee, I'm glad I'm not an Economics Expert - I don't understand this at all...
:-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: katlaughing
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 06:18 PM

COngratulations, Suffet! That sounds ideal for the moment, at least!

I love it when folks come back to let us know how things turned out.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: GUEST,, GEST
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 05:35 PM

I opted for retirement when I was 57. So cool!

But.... I took an even bigger step. My wife and I immigrated from Pennsylvania to a small island in Canada off the coast of Maine. Super cool!

We bought a cottage and, after six months when we got our permanent residency, an existing small business and a different home. Three years later, we applied for Canadian citizenship. Being from Brooklyn, that was really a big step for me. ~LOL~

Now, four years after leaving the USA, we are anxiously waiting our citizenship papers. They are due any day now. Last Sunday we bought a beautiful home near a cliff overlooking the Bay of Fundy. The next day we sold the business and yesterday we put our old home up for sale. Talk about it all coming together. Yee-Ha. Full retirement, here I come.

And.... the best part is, I still have some change left over so I can wait a while before applying for my U.S. Social Security. Why hurry? I've been having too much fun the last four years just whale-watching, boating, hiking, beachcombing, sun-setting, relaxing, enjoying, and loving. :-)

Being laid off was the best thing that ever happened to this War Baby. Want to see my blood-pressure numbers? By the way, who's Bush? ~grin~

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Little Robyn
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 05:06 PM

Ha Ha! Go for it and laugh all the way to the bank.
I just wish I could do the same - and spend all my spare time on Mudcat!
I spent 3 months unemployed after I was laid off in March but I have a full-time job now, minding disabled people. And I love them, and they love music.
Robyn

Subject: The last laugh!
From: Suffet
Date: 04 Oct 03 - 10:11 AM

Greetings:

We should really put this thread to rest, but I couldn't resist adding this update.

It seems my former employer needs my help, so they hired me as a consultant for one day a week at $386 per day. In addition I found some hourly work at $36 per hour for four hours per week, just enough to wet my beak. When I add together these earnings and my pension -- there are no deductions for state and local taxes, Social Security, Medicare, or union dues on the latter -- my actual take home pay now that I'm working one and a half days per week is greater than it was when I was working full-time!

That consultant job may not last forever, but it has been funded through June 2004, so I am enjoying it while I can. Makes a fella feel good that he was canned!

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 05:05 PM

Steve, best of luck. I'm sorry that I won't be at your Woody Guthrie tribute concert this year. You know that I've left the banks of the Hudson River behind for the beautiful shores of Lake Ontario. I'm living with you-know-who, and if I can convince her to brave the August heat, we'll both be down to Brooklyn to see your festival this summer.

Until then, give my fondest regards to Larry if you see him. He's a darn good musician and songwriter, but he shouldn't be so intense. It will give him an early heart attack.

And speaking of heart attacks, you my friend, could stand to lose 50 or 60 pounds. Love handles are one thing, but you have just become too damn sedentary. Where's the boy hiked the Appalachian Trail from Sherburne Pass down to Clarendon Gorge with a Martin slung across his back? Did you think I didn't remember? Maybe losing your job will give you the opportunity to get back into the shape you were.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: GUEST,static-free
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 09:44 AM

Remember the words of John Hartford in "Tall Buildings"?

    Wonder what happened betwixt and between,
    when I went to work in tall buildings?

I'd grow my hair and go smell the flowers.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: nutty
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 09:03 AM

Steve ...retiring under such conditions means that you can walk away with no regrets.

The powers that be may be screwing up other peoples lives but they are never again going to be able to do it to you.

I speak from exprience having taken early retirement on ill health grounds 5 years ago.

Now I spend my time doing all the things I really enjoy but never had time to do when I was working.

I'm financially poor but emotionally rich and that's a pretty good position to be in.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Suffet
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 01:56 AM

Just a quick update. I got my lay-off notice in the mail yesterday (6/27/03), but it was dated June 20, and it wouldn't become effective until September 1. For me that is now a moot point because my retirement date is July 1, which means my last day of work is this coming Monday, June 30.

These last few days, however, have been really depressing. Many colleagues with whom I have worked for years are truly screwed. They are the ones who had the lowest paid jobs and who do not have a previous position to revert to. Most are women. Many are Latina or black. Many might eventually be called back, but if so they could be assigned anywhere within the five boroughs of New York City, and not necessarily assigned to their former work sites. Meanwhile, there will be a break in their service. That means more than just a lapse in their pay. After 90 days they will no longer get free health benefits, which means they will have to pay to have those benefits continue under a law called COBRA. On top of that, while on lay-off, they will not accrue seniority or time towards pension.

Even among those colleagues who will continue to work, many will face a reduction in pay as they revert to old titles or move into new titles that pay less (and which have less autonomy and which provide less job satisfaction). A few will actually move up the ladder and make a higher salary, but for many of them it will mean moving into so-called mangerial positions which are not covered by union benefits or civil service protection.

No, this isn't a happy time. Retirement should be, but how could it be under these conditions?

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Suffet
Date: 10 Jun 03 - 09:06 PM

We're not moving out of New York City so fast. Marilyn still has a good paying gig as a midwife in the OB-GYN department of Mount Sinai Hospital, I've lined up all the part-time work I can handle, including covering for a woman I now supervise when she goes out on maternity leave in the fall, and we owe less than $78K on a house that has a market value of more than $300K. It's just a plain box of bricks, but it's a legal 2-family dwelling (4 rooms over 4 rooms), which means it could be an income producer, and it's just 2 blocks from an elevated transit line that takes only 15 minutes into midtown Manhattan. That's the #7 Flushing Line train. Location, location, location! Also, as a retired public employee, my pension is exempt from NY State and NY City personal income taxes. On top of that, the NYC public school system is funded out of general tax revenue rather than from a dedicated property tax, so property taxes are relatively low. Also, my brother and my daughter, my only close blood relatives, live here in NYC. They're not planning on going anywhere else.

I think I'll just visit the USA.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Jun 03 - 07:58 AM

Sorry Mark, called you Murk - it's all the fault of your namesake who was always called Murk Clurk because that's what it sounded like....

Sorry!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 01:11 PM

Annamill! Too old to learn new things? NEVER! What about worjking in catering? You would be a natural and probably love it.

Suffet - that would have been my choice. There are a million places less expensive and more civilized than NYC. Some even have warm winters.
SINS

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: annamill
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 12:52 PM

I was a consultant in NY making god-awful amounts of money for about 10 years. All of a sudden, boom. MY CONTRACT WAS UP! I was working on a bastard computer called a Stratus. Everyone who owned one moved to a PC based system of which I know nothing. I'm too old now to learn new things. By the time I did I would be too old to remember those things.

Our video store went belly up and we sold everything we could to get out and paid off some of our debt from the store.

So..here I am working at a supermarket for god-awful LOW money, about to start as a beginner as a bank teller not making even a fraction of what I was making in NY. Holding two jobs.

You know what though? I'm actually enjoying it. No more sitting in a fat-assed chair starring at a computer 8 hrs a day worrying about being bombed or poisoned.

It has been 7 months since we went totally broke and Honey and I are just now starting to come back. He is working as a County Park Ranger and doing quite well.

I start my teller position this Monday and I'm looking forward to it. We will be moving to California about October or maybe after the holidays. We will have enough practice under our belts to get simular positions there.

We're hopeful and filled with promise and looking forward to walking on the beach in January.

Point? Just an inspirational story for ya, Suffet.

Love, Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Jun 03 - 03:22 AM

Wonderful site Murk, and so true!!!

Good luck with whatever you decide to do!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Mark Clark
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 02:29 PM

Steve, I too have been in your situation. I took the retirement and now work as an IT consultant when the spirit moves. On the other hand, I was up in the Boundary Waters last week.

Check out the Odd Todd Web site for some very clever animated cartoons on the problems of being laid off in today's economy. Just click on the "Start" graphic; you may have to click it again on the next page.

Good luck.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: GUEST,John Hernandez
Date: 06 Jun 03 - 09:15 AM

You made the right move. Good luck with the Woody Guthrie concert.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Suffet
Date: 05 Jun 03 - 07:24 PM

Just a quick update. I handed in my retirement papers last Thursday, May 29, 2003. On Monday, I got called for a job interview to work under my current boss's boss. New title, senority reverts to zero, 1.1 percent less pay, more hours, less autonomy. He's a very decent guy, and through his secretary I kindly thanked him. It isn't too late to withdraw my papers, but I decided to go with my gut instinct. So my thank you was really a "No, thank you." So be it.

A lot of people I have worked with over the years are scrambling. Some have moved up, but that means taking so-called management jobs which provide no security and no union benefits. Some have moved from supervisory into administrative jobs like the one they called me for. Some accept the fact that they'll revert to their former positions, if they had former positions. Some will actually be laid off. And some, like me, will just throw in the towel.

Anyway, it's time for me to turn my attention to other matters, like the upcoming Third Annual Woody Guthrie Birthday Bash at CB's 313 Gallery in New York City. The date is Sunday, July 13, 2003, the time is 7 to 9 PM, and the cover charge is only $5. For that price you can stay all night and hear other acts as well. CB's is located at 313 Bowery, between East 1st and East 2nd Streets in the NOHO/East Village section of Lower Manhattan.

Be there and make this retiree happy!

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: vectis
Date: 22 May 03 - 06:28 PM

I have just taken the money and run. I'm in the Uk and by going early with a pension enhancement I don't take an actuarial reduction. In other words by leaving work now my pension is 27% larger than it would have been in 5 years time (when I intended to go if I possibly could).
Be warned the days are much shorter than they were when I was working. I just can't fit everything in. I'll never know how I fitted work in round my social life!! :-))
Go for it. Retire. You can always get another job for a while if finances get tight.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: gnu
Date: 22 May 03 - 12:50 PM

Sounds like you have the situation well thought out and well under control. Good luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: GUEST,Midchuck, downstairs
Date: 22 May 03 - 11:24 AM

Peter, your advice sounds mighty tempting...As for me -- well didn't you guys make me an honoray Chuck last month? That gives me entrée into the fast paced glitz and tinsel world of of Vermont folk music. Right?

Oh, yeah. After seeing pictures of our combined set, I realized that if Sandy couldn't make a gig, you could fill in for him and no one would know the difference...

There are just two problems:

1. Winter.

Solution: Skiing and Music

2. More winter.

Solution: Booze and More Music.

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Suffet
Date: 22 May 03 - 07:00 AM

Greetings:

Thanks for all the advice. I've taken all the good-faith suggestions seriously, and along with the advice of my family, my coworkers, my friends, my district union rep (also a friend and coworker), and my accountant. Here's what I've decided to do:

1. If I'm offered one of the $105k suit-and-tie jobs, I'll take it. Since it would a provisional (interim acting) position, I would be under no obligation to stay with it if I find myself unhappy. Nor would the city be under any obligation to keep me if they're unhappy. In either case I would retire with a fatter pension than I get now. The longer I stay, the fatter it gets, but even if I work for only a day, I'm no worse off than if I don't take the job.

Of course, I might not be offered one of those jobs. The deadline for filing applications was last Thursday (5/15/03), and people starting being called for interviews the very next day. Others got "Thanks, but no thanks" e-mails. I got neither, which means to me I'm still in the running, but not a first round pick.

2. If I am not offered one of those jobs -- meaning if I am offered anything less or if I have to revert to my old job -- I will retire. I have already consulted with a pension advisor, set up a roll-over IRA (individual retirement account, not Irish Republican Army), and filled out all the papers. I've had them notarized, and all I have to do is hand them in at least one day ahead of my retirement date.

3. I've started to call up people I know throughout the system to see if they can set aside hours in their budgets for me to work on a part-time basis. The new fiscal year begins July 1. So far one person said he can put 24 hours aside for what are called compliance and staff development. Another said I could cover the job of a woman, whom I now supervise, who will be out on maternity leave for 6 to 8 weeks in the fall. It's more than a trifle ironic, because the mommy-to-be is the person who replaced me when I moved up to become a supervisor in 1999.

4. We're staying put here in New York City, at least as long as Marilyn keeps working. Unlike me, she does not have a defined benefits pension. Hers is entirely in the form of a "403b" tax sheltered annuity, and her retirement income will be tied in whole to interest rates. Welcome to the 21st Century America! In her case, she'll work full-time to age 62, which means 5 more years.

5. Since I'm not reverting to a lower paid position, nor accepting what is essentially my current job under a new title, I have no cause for legal action against the City of New York. And even if I did take one of those options, I would let my union lawyers make the case on behalf of all of us. That's one of the reasons I pay dues.

Once again, thanks. There is no need to continue this thread on for my benefit. On the other hand, BS is BS, so I wouldn't be surprised if it continues anyway. But I'm signing off for now.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Kaleea
Date: 22 May 03 - 02:03 AM

Would to God I were in your dilemma! Since the guy rear-ended me over 2 yrs ago, I am unable to work due to the injuries, the auto insurance co cut off all benefits--medical as well as wage reimbursement--after one year.   Why? Because they could, & legally, too! I was not allowed to collect unemployment because if you have ANY medical restrictions you do not qualify, it takes a "couple" of years to get disability approved from Social Security--the disability attorney told me in Feb it would be another year. (I will get a whopping $714 per month BEFORE the $54-the current amount-is deducted from my monthly check for Medicare) I still have not received a settlement from the auto ins company because they have more $$ & begger attorneys than I do, not to mention politicians in their pockets who allow the laws to make all this legal. I do not make enough giving a few music lessons & gigging now & then (which is technically naughty cause if you can make just one dime, then no matter how much pain you are in or what has happened to your body & mind, you obviously do not need to get disability payments cause you are able to work!)to pay all my bills--when I am able to gig, if the constant pain allows me to move, & yes, I mean literally! Not only do I have neck & back injuries, but carpal tunnel in both wrists which has wreaked havoc with this musician. Being single there is no one to support me. I have no idea how I will live from day to day, and no way to pay to go to a Dr. or get pain meds. That's the short version
    So Steve, if I miraculously somehow regained my health, I can tell you that I would choose to do what I love to do(music)--and not prostitute myself to some company which does not give a damn about me or my dreams, talents etc., or respect me as an individual. Now stop & think about what is REALLY important in life--& go out there & do it!

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 03 - 11:54 PM

what i wnat to know is how come it seems that whenever a republican is in the white house unemployment rises and the economy goes to shit...but when a democrat is in...things get better and money is flowing?

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 May 03 - 11:06 PM

Retire and move out here. 5 bedroom, 2 bath house: $150,000 or less. Cost of living is something like 72% of the national average. Unemployment is about 5%. Average January high here is about 40, low is about 28. 17 inches of precipitation annually -- that's snow, rain, and all.

I sorta suspect that a Big (Road)Apple pension would go a ways in Idaho.

Ain't pushing the state, just suggesting that you remember that there are more places than what's east of the Big Muddy. (Yes, Virginia, there IS civilization beyond the Hudson!)

Anybody notice that the April unemployment figures are up to 6.0% or so? That there are now something like 8.8 million folks without jobs? That Shrub wants to create a million jobs? Doesn't that leave 7.8 million still unemployed? Having been there recently myself, I know what it's like.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Suffet
Date: 21 May 03 - 07:43 PM

Peter, your advice sounds mighty tempting. Maybe I'll move to the Northeast Kingdom and live off my pension plus whatever I can make from selling the house here and buying one there. Marilyn is a midwife, and that's an honorable profession anywhere, even in the USA. As for me -- well didn't you guys make me an honoray Chuck last month? That gives me entrée into the fast paced glitz and tinsel world of of Vermont folk music. Right?

There are just two problems:

1. Winter.

2. More winter.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: GUEST,Midchuck downstairs
Date: 21 May 03 - 02:52 PM

Leave New York City, move to the United States, get a job paying half as much, and live like a human being.

Well, you asked!

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: GUEST,feather bedder
Date: 21 May 03 - 02:40 PM

Better rack up that OT before the ax drops! From what I know about public employee unions and their pension schemes, a guy could work double or triple shifts his last twelve months on the job, and then soak the taxpayers for the rest of his life.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: gnu
Date: 21 May 03 - 11:30 AM

A word to the wise about litigation in this particular situation. I am sure the lawyers working for the city have been over every aspect of the legalities and strategies involved, as have the lawyers working for the unions. If the unions can't win, you may be pissing in the wind. Therefore, I would be wary of any lawyer who doesn't offer services for remuneration based soley on a percentage of the increase gained through litigation. And I mean NO OTHERS - not even photocopying or filing fees or court costs or shining your shoes. And I'd check the lawyer's record under similar circumstances because if the lawyer is pissing in the wind, it'll just go all over you. Consult with your shop steward before you even consider litigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: GUEST,amergin
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:56 AM

rofl@last guest

Steve, I'm in sort of the same boat...save have only been here for 2 and a half years....I think the comapny we had our contract through decided to get their tech support from overseas....like India...

but anyways...I did the following parody as a result of hearing the news...good luck to you.

On The Dole Again

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:47 AM

Just keep showing up for work anyway. Tell them you would have done it for nothing for thirty years, you love it so much. Guranteed paid vacation in Bellevue.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Alice
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:43 AM

Whatever you choose to do, preserve the pension you've earned.
Retirement and part time job is a good choice. Simplifying your life and reducing expenses is a good thing to do at our age.

Alice

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: GUEST,Amira from Brooklyn
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:32 AM

New York City is not laying off fat cat administrators. It is laying off people lower down the food chain, including lots of school aides, health care workers, civilian police aides, and library workers, as well as police officers and firefighters. It is also laying off lower level supervisors like Steve. If they are not ready or able to retire, they will bump the people beneath them, or they will take those so-called management positions which carry no union benefits and no civil service protection. Don't suppose for a moment that this is anything but part of a plan to break the municipal unions, which in a city like New York have wielded considerable power for generations. Whether they have always used that power for good is another question, of course, but the fact is the Republican administration (along with quite a few Democrats) want to strip the unions of that power.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:13 AM

Thank heavens New York has the good sense to layoff supervisors. Out here in the West, they are laying off the lower paid, who actually get the work done(custodians, secretaries, files clerks, aids, groundsmen etc.) while virtually ALL the administrators (25% increase in numbers over the past five years)continue in their fat cat jobs.

Read this week's issue of TIME magazine.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 21 May 03 - 10:06 AM

Gnu has some good suggestions. Consider what your income and living expenses will be. IF you can afford it, take the money and run. If you have time, find a labor lawyer and have him/her go over any retirement agreements with you thoroughly. Maybe your union can provide the name of someone who specializes in that area of the law. I look at it this way, the City is already screwing you, you don't need to screw yourself. You have little control over this situation, but take what little you have and use it to your advantage.

I know this will be hard, making up a budget of expenses and income, but it will be worth it knowing you have a plan.

Also, have you thought about moving to a less expensive area?

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 May 03 - 07:01 AM

If it were me, I'd retire. Hell, I DID that. My pension isn't much and I work part of the year in a job that doesn't pay very well, but I enjoy every other aspect. I like the control I have over my own time.

If it were the new, improved INTELLIGENT me, I'd probably apply for one of the higher paying jobs and stick it out for three years. Who knows - I might even LIKE it!

One important thing you haven't factored in is what you WANT to do! Do you like any of the jobs offered? Do you like working full-time? Can you enjoy life with a lower amount of 'positive cash flow'? Is there something you always wanted to do, but didn't have the time? With this last thing, I'm thinking of people I've known who've put together music programs for schools and such, based on their expertise, or folks who've started their own businesses. Make a lists of positives and negatives. The may help you make up your mind.

Good luck finding the happiest solution, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: gnu
Date: 21 May 03 - 06:57 AM

No penalty ! Full pension and some cash for sick & vacation days. Without prying any further, if the big ticket items like house, vehicle, whatever, are paid for, take the money and run. Another career, part-time job, travel... it's a big world and you're still young enough to make an adventure out of what you choose to do or not to do.

Another thing to look at.... compare your take-home working to your take-home pension. Divide the difference by annual working days. Do you feel it's worth it to work for that amount or could there be an alternative that would you might enjoy more ?

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Suffet
Date: 21 May 03 - 06:20 AM

Greetings again:

Good questions, Gnu. My civil appointment date is Feb. 1, 1974. I need 30 years credit for a full pension. I worked 4 months and 13 days as a provisional before being appointed, so my effective 30th anniversary would be Sept. 18, 2003. However, the New York State legislature passed a law in 2000 that gives me an extra 2 years credit. That means I reached the equivalent of 30 years on Sept. 18, 2001. As such I can retire without a penalty.

But it's not that simple. My pension formula is made up different components. One of them is a defined benefit based on a percentage of the average of my highest 3 years earnings. For every additional year I work, that portion goes up by 1.7 percent. The remainder of my pension is made up of annuities, meaning the older I am when I annuitize, the more I would get.

There are other factors as well. For example, I have accumulated approximately 90 sick days. When I retire, I can cash in half of them at 1/200 my annual salary on the last day. On July 1, if I revert to my previous job title, those days will be worth perhaps 20 percent less. The same thing goes for 2 months of vacation I am owed. It looks like Janice is right about wanting to push out old-timers.

Janice is also right that I am not in the worst of situations, just a very annoying one. I've been in one supervisory job or another since 1999, but I have a job with 25 years seniority to fall back on. The people who are really being screwed by Mr. Bloomberg's cut backs are the people on the bottom of the ladder, those in the lowest paid jobs with no previous positions they can revert to.

There are other nasty things happening at all levels of New York City employment, one of which is changing many supervisory and administrative jobs into "managerial" jobs. As management, employees are put on individual yearly contracts, lose all civil service protection, and lose the right to be represented by a union. They are also held to annual performance standards that are impossible to meet. That gives Bloomberg and his underlings cause to not renew a contract as the see fit. Lest you think that it's only the top dog positions that are being called managerial, think again. The city is putting quite a few jobs under $50k in that category.

And, Don, thank you for your concern about health benefits, but in my case it's not a problem. If I retire, I get the same basic health benefits as any active New York City employee. It's just some of the optional benefits that may be reduced.

--- Steve

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: gnu
Date: 21 May 03 - 05:25 AM

I agree with Janice. I just can't see letting go of the seniority and risking a pension reduction but that depends on your age, magic number and annual penalty for early retirement. How many years have you got to go until full pension ? What's the annual penalty for early retirement ?

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Janice in NJ
Date: 21 May 03 - 12:02 AM

I doubt that there will be any retraining money available for Steve. As he tells us somewhat indirectly, his layoff is more of a job demotion than a true layoff. His union should file an age discrimination complaint, because this tactic of "retitling" a position is often used as way to force out older workers, the ones on the highest pay scales and whose benefits (medical, prescription drugs, health appliances, etc.) are the most costly. Retirement is exactly what zillionaire Mayor Mike Bloomberg would want him to choose. The actuaries long ago figured out how much the city had to set aside to fund his pension at age 62 or whatever. By leaving at 56, Steve will draw substantially less each month, and the city will come out ahead. My advice: Decide for yourself when you want to retire, and don't yield your right to make that choice, even if it means a pay cut. Stick it out. Let them demote you. Then sue the bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 20 May 03 - 11:45 PM

I'd decide if any of the job options offer meaningful work and not just a payday.Then I'd take which ever was the most meaningful no matter what the pay. If the job doesn't work out you can still always retire.

Another thot, with the layoff should also come some retraining money. Find the thing you'd want to do that has the health benefits you probably still need and train for the job. Maybe its a park attendant or a case worker in a Cerebral Palsy Center or even a job coach for a person with a disability.

I have thought that I'd go back to school and become an art teacher if I had too. I'be a 60 year old student teacher but at least I'd be going forward.

Don

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Padre
Date: 20 May 03 - 11:26 PM

If you have worked for the same employer for 30 years, I do believe you have had 'job security.' I would suggest you take retirement, which would give you a guaranteed pension, and then decide what other kind of work you might like to do, either full or part time.

Padre

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 May 03 - 11:12 PM

Take the retirement, relax and get a part time job if you're bored. Mr has 3 yrs left at the cop shop and can't wait. Bloody politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Robin2
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:53 PM

4. Retire.

And become a folk musician...
no money, but lots of friends

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Bobert
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:48 PM

I am truely sorry. Really...

But welcome to George Bush's America...

Find something that you like to do, gop into business doing it and screw corporate/government America. They're only into profit taking and stealing other country's stuff...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: mg
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:16 PM

I would retire and relax and take a part time job.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Amos
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:11 PM

You can handle the suit business, man -- it really is only scary on the outside, mostly. But only do it if you're hurtin' for the dough. It is stressful. Bu tit is remnerative. IF you can afford to retire, I'd go with that. The revert is the middle ground, keeps some dough and seniority and lines ou up to retire a bt later or any other time, right?

But if you rettire you have to be very resourceful generating extremely interesting projects -- or you'll be doing everyone else's!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:08 PM

Remember to Vote Republican. That'll make everything OK.

Subject: BS: Laid off! What next?
From: Suffet
Date: 20 May 03 - 10:05 PM

Greetings:

I never thought it would happen to me! "Get a civil service job," they said. "The pay may be lousy, but you got good benefits and job security."

Well, my union recently notified me that after 30 years working for the City of New York, I will be one of 857 supervispory employees who will be laid off as of the close of business on June 30, 2003. That leaves me with four options:

1. Apply for one of 200 newly created jobs that are roughly equivalent in pay, and are nearly identical in duties and responsibilities. The catch is that these are new titles, meaning that if I take one I would be a provisional employee until regularly appointed -- a process that could take a year or more -- during which time I would serve at the pleasure of some higher up. And if I were appointed, I would lose my existing seniority and start off from scratch. Yes, my union is filing an unfair labor practices complaint, but that will take a long time to resolve.

2. Apply for one of 70 newly created jobs that pay substantial more. The downside is the as same for the 200 jobs mentioned above, but the upside is that I would be making $105k per annum.

3. Revert to my previous non-supervisory position. That would mean a cut in pay of about 15 to 20 percent. But at least I would have 25 years seniority in that title. By the way, since I have the right to revert, I cannot collect unemployment insurance benefits.

4. Retire. I'm only 56, but this option is looking better and better. I may be able to work part-time for the City, as I'm permitted to earn up to $25k per annum while drawing a pension. In addition, I'll be eligible for Social Security in less than 6 years,


So here's where I need advice. What should I do if I'm offered one of the 200 jobs? My gut feeling is tell them, "Thanks, but no thanks," and then retire.

What if I'm offered one of the 70 high paying jobs? I would really be tempted to say "yes," but then I'd be one of the "suits" and I'd have to finally act like an adult. Yuck!

What if I'm not offered anything? As I said, retirement looks mighty attractive.

Please help. I'll have to decide really soon.

Thanks.

--- Steve