Uilleann Pipes

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 02:46 PM

Whilst hoping to keep this thread near 19C pipes.......

Didn't Indo-Europeans originate further north up east of the Black Sea? Colin Renfrew has a good book on it. Agriculture then spread from this area, sometimes with migration and sometimes by the spread of good ideas with trade......... north into Europe, south to India and lots of other places near by?

but I am mugging my own thread again.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 02:32 PM

Q, thanks for the references to the encyclopedia. It's interesting to see how thinking has changed a bit over the years.

Smallpiper, I know the pseudo-histories pretty well, and I can't remember much on the origin of the bagpipes. The problem with that material, (written down since the 6th century from presumably oral sources, with most manuscripts coming from after the 10th century) is that frequently older stories, probably from continental or British Celts, are put into an Irish context. So chariot warfare, which is the basis of the warrior society in the Ulster Cycle, seems never to have actually existed in Ireland (by which I mean, no war-chariots have turned up in excavations there, and no ancient sources mention it as a characteristic of Irish life). What probably happened was that stories about chariot-warriors on the continent or in Britain were carried to Ireland and formed the basis of the cycle. But the cycle is clearly located in Ireland.

This is essentially the problem with the oral tradition from the standpoint of origins. Many stories dealing with the origins of cultural phenomena take the form of what we call "migratory legends," which means not only do the stories travel around, but they are then localized to wherever the teller comes from. So we would absolutely excpect the Irish oral tradition to recount an Irish origin, while the Spanish oral tradition would recount a Spanish one. This is not a hard-and-fast rule, of course. The Irish oral tradition does have some remarkable flashes of accuracy over hundreds of years (like the Spanish origin of the Milesian Celts, which is generally thought to be plausible), but also has some remarkable and obvious innacuracies like the one I mentioned above.

Having said that, there is also a huge amount of orally-collected folklore in Ireland that has never been transcribed or published, and you never know what great wisdom may someday be revealed! I firmly believe that the origins of

McGrath, because the Indo-European people seem to have emerged from India, anything that is widespread among IE peoples will at one time be ascribed an Indian origin, especially if there are Indian examples. But it's really pure conjecture, because as everyone here agrees (even Sorefingers and I!), the origin really was quite ancient.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 12:55 PM

I am fascinated by proto-history and the subsequent spread of farming across Eurasia. I guess pipes and bags have travelled back and forth many times.

Proto, early and even 16C & 17C history may not reveal how somebody sat down and made a set of Uillean pipes for the first time. But the history of the 19C might.

The craftspeople who made the first pipes clearly based them on other pipes. Which ones and when?

I am sorry if this was actually answered in the second post.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 08:29 AM

Is there nothing in the oral traditions of Ireland and Scotland that refers to the origions of the pipes? (apart from the fact that they arrived in the west of Ireland in boats out of the sky along with the Fir Bolg or was it the Tuatha DeDannan - I can never remember).

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 07:44 AM

Larry - I always thought that Ireland was part of the British Isles. Still the consensus seems to be that the use of bellows is a European development.

OH MY DAVE! There has been a lot said on this topic (Ireland as part of the British Isles), here, let's just say that there is not consensus on this!!!! [Of course it depends how you define British... and a host of other events and terms...] Cheers Larry

PS As an Uilleann piper myself... I have to say that folks take some things a wee tad too serriously and that - even though it is a challenging instrument... it is easier than discussing the diddly dees of its history...

BS... but that is what makes this place so much fun...

CS... see ye's later...

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 06:30 AM

It always amazes me that the 3 piece construction of the Spanish Giata Bass Drone is almost identical to the construction of 18th Highland Bagpipe Bass Drone.Gaita
18th Cent GHB
This is not the only similarity; the fingering of the Half Closed style of playing Gaita is again almost identical.
Fingerings
To me this would imply that there was a pan western European style of Bagpipe from which regional varieties evolved, supporting the medieval origin of the instrument.
Another possibility I suppose is that Spanish survivors of the Armada washed up on the coast of the western isles brought this design and fingering with them, but I've seen no evidence other than my own Imagination to back this up.

PP

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 10 Sep 03 - 05:27 AM

Larry - I always thought that Ireland was part of the British Isles. Still the consensus seems to be that the use of bellows is a European development.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 10:58 PM

Scholarly thinking on the subject seems not to have changed a great deal since then, though it has become more rigorous; occasional references to bagpipes in the Roman armies are no longer taken to "prove" that the pipes were introduced to Britain by the Romans. The evidence of one single bronze is no more significant in that respect than is the fact that the Romans brought a few elephants over here at one point. There is no evidence of a resultant elephant population in Britain, and, equally, there is no evidence of a local bagpipe playing tradition earlier than about the 13th century, when, in the wake of the crusades, they began to appear all over Northern Europe. So far as can be told from the historical record, the pipes were taken up in England rather earlier than in Scotland; dates for Ireland are more vague, but they appear to have arrived there during the same period. There is no particular reason to imagine that bagpipes were introduced to Scotland from Ireland; France or England are more likely immediate sources, but at all events the likely timescale isn't all that great; a hundred years at most, probably less.

This really is a purely historical issue, and considerations of (anybody's) national pride have no place in it. I'm glad to see that the discussion is settling down to a sensible approach; credit to Sorefingers for joining in with the spirit of it.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 10:12 PM

Nerd, my Britannica is old- 1956. Article on p. 926-927 of vol. 2
Could a Roman have brought the bronze statuette of the figure playing the tibia utricularis but left the actual bagpipes at home or traded them for liquor somewhere along the way? Possible.

The article goes on to state "From England the bagpipe spread to Caledonia and Ireland, where it took root..."

I would tend to think that the soldiers and officials, merchants, etc. would have brought a variety of portable musical instruments with them. Some quite upscale villas were built in Roman Britain, and I would guess that they were well equipped with amenities.

The classic 11th edition (1909-1911) of the Britannica has a much more scholarly article. One extract: "The old Irish Bag-pipe, of which we possess an illustration dated 1581 (John Derrick, Image of Ireland and Discoveries of Woodhorne, London, 1581) had a long conical chaunter with a bell and apparently seven holes in front and a thumb-hole behind; there were two drones of different lengths- one very long- both set in the same stock. It is exceedingly difficult to procure any accurate information concerning the development of the bag-pipe in Ireland until it assumed the present form known as the union-pipes."

History: "The most characteristic feature of the bag-pipe is not the obvious bag ... but the fixed harmony of the buzzing drones. The principle of the drone, i. e. the beating-reed sunk some three inches down the pipe, was known to the ancient Egyptians." (Discussion of a tomb discovery, the reed in place).
"Among the names of musical instruments [biblical citations] generally but wrongly rendered as "dulcimer" ...is thought by many scholars to signify a kind of bag-pipe..."
"Bag-pipe known in Italy and Spain during the Middle Ages..."
The statement about the Roman figurine of a soldier playing the tibia utricularis, found at Richborough, is also made here (Archaeologia, v. XVII, London, 1814).
Bag-pipes used at Coventry in 1534. Thirteenth century bag-pipes from Spain are illustrated in the Cantigas de Santa Maria- one has four long drones and two chaunters. Many more interesting comments.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 09:03 PM

Congratulations, sorefingers.

Welcome to the human race.

Robin

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 06:54 PM

Thank you, pattyClick, for clearing up a murky pronunciation. Sheila

Subject: RE: Bagpipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 05:46 PM

"Scotland's national instrument, the Bagpipe or in Gaelic "piob-mhor" (the great pipe) is not, contrary to
          popular belief, an instrument which has its origins in and has diffused from Scotland. The bagpipe is an
          instrument of great antiquity, an instrument which has its origins in the Middle East and traveled
          through and evolved in Europe alongside the diffusion of early civilization.

          The "Oxford History of Music" makes mention of the first documented bagpipe being found on a Hittite
          slab at Eyuk. This sculptured bagpipe has been dated to 1,000 B.C. Biblical mention is made of the
          bagpipe in Genesis and in the third Chapter of Daniel"


Copied off of a website - but it is interesting to notice that like the Irish books on the subject state, the bagpipes were long in use and widespread before the 7 hills became Rome. IOW Rome is out, finito
caput a waste of time ....

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 05:37 PM

http://www.bagpipehistory.org

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 03:25 PM

At the start of this thread I was searching for the evolution of the Uillean pipes, which seem to me to be a modern piece of technology. The general consenus seems to support this suggestion. Much else has been explored, some more rigorously and honestly than other.

People have been using cattle and sheep for sometime (10 thousand years?). Pipes seem a bit old and using bags to blow them pops up all over the place. Lots of origins seem a fair bet. But them Uilleans are high techy things are they not?

I suggest somebody sat down and made one based on prior experience of bellows/bag pipes. Is this correct?

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 03:13 PM

Various sources placed the origin of bagpipes as being in India. I don't know what the basis for that is, but it seems as likely as anywhere. The odd thing is that they don't ever seem to have taken off in the far East - I don't think there is any Chinese version.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 01:56 PM

Ploughflyer--you may only have skimmed the thread, which I admit is bloated partly due to my own gullibility, but we have actually discussed the Hittite evidence, the Nero evidence, the question of whether Romans brought the bagpipe throughout their conquered lands, and whether or not the bagpipes'presence in Britain is based on the Roman influence.

Q--I wonder which edition of Britannica you are using. I was looking at the online version, and though they mention the Roman bagpipe in the wind instruments article, they do not metion the figurine found in Britain, or take it as evidence that the bagpipe itself was in Britain at that time. I myself would be cautious about that inference, since Roman Soldiers could be from anywhere and might bring their figurines with them but not their actual bagpipes. In the bagpipe article they talk about this evidence even less.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: ploughflyer
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 12:27 PM

I have been following this thread with interest despite it wavering from the well informed to the ridiculous.
The origins of the Bagpipe are, of course, obscure however the accepted wisdom is that the origination was during the Hittite civilisation of the Middle East around 2000BC when the musicians of the day got fed up having to interrupt their flute playing to draw breath and some genius decided to add a bag and blowpipe. The bag being made from some type of animal skin or innards.
From there the Romans took up the cause and spread the instrument throughout their conquered lands. There is even historical evidence that Nero played a bagpipe and not a fiddle. This is how the bagpipe came to arrive in England, Scotland, and Ireland and evolved into it's present day highly sophisticated forms.

For further detail on the Uilleann pipes there is the site of Na Piobari Uilleann at www.pipers.ie and a superb Uilleann discussion forum on the message boards of www.chiffandfipple.com where answers to any question will be found.

Cameron

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 12:08 PM

smallpiper,

you're generally right that folklorists and historians (and organologists, musicologists, etc) are biased toward a theory of a single origin for an idea followed by spreading of the idea abroad, rather than a whole bunch of origins. This favors and simplifies their methodology of tracing ideas back to their origin. It is one of those instances where, if you aren't careful, your theory can shape your evidence rather than the other way round. But I think in the case of bagpipes in Europe, the evidence also happens to support this theory. The lines of development from a one-droned medieval bagpipe to most modern bagpipes can be followed through pictorial references and surviving examples. So most historians would be comfortable saying that most European bagpipes--including the ones in Britain and in Ireland--were derived from this model. However, before that, as we've seen, things get murky, and certainly the basic idea of adding a bag to a reed-pipe may have occurred more than once.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 11:53 AM

Incidently are bellows-blown bagpipes common outside the British Isles ? Yup... France and Ireland. Cheers, Larry

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 11:52 AM

Regulators were also a feature of Pastoral Pipes.
Some central and eastern European Bagpipes have bellows, and the evidence suggests a mainland European origin in the 16th or 17th century.

PP

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 11:29 AM

There seem to be versions of bagpipes from all around the world, but I thought that the main feature that made the uilleann pipes special was the regulators which make it possible to play the drones as well as the chanter. Do any other pipes around the globe have this innovation and exactly when did it evolve - I thought that it was a fairly recent addition. Incidently are bellows-blown bagpipes common outside the British Isles ?

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 10:49 AM

Oh, geez, McGrath, maybe he'll join up just to torment me.

Yes, folks, I must apologize to the list for rising to the bait on this one...

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 08:17 AM

It looks like we have a Troll...

Click on the blue clicky thing for the name sorefingers, read the author's past performance in other threads, and make up your mind whether you are going to waste your time replying to him... about anything...

Getting Joe or some one else to kick him out, would be pointless, as he could get back in under any other pseudonym. It should be noted that person can't be bothered getting a cookie, but has been posting since 22-Feb-03 - 08:48 --- Message_ID=896244

Treating Tantrums in Children:
Best sdvice is to ignore them.
Responding only reinforces negative habits.

I'm Nobody's Fool - I'm Unemployed!

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 08:14 AM

The pity is that since sorefingers is here as a GUEST, it means that the private slanging match with Nerd can't be carried on via PMs.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: InOBU
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 07:53 AM

I can just emagine Paddy Kennan's responce to this thread....
Emagine sitting next to him, reading this as he lifts his pint to his lips... looking straight ahead, a short huff of breath breaks from his chest and blows a wee bit of froth off the top of pint, which then is raised to his lips... end of responce.
I think I can be pretty sure that that would be it...
By the way, come hear me play tonight, there is a post about the Theaters against the war concert a few days back.
Cheers'
Larry

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 07:33 AM

Well oil b darned! Look nerdy clones

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 05:41 AM

Why has this thread desended into a slanging match? What exactly is being gained by this?

As for the origions of pipes (note that most pipers that I know seldom if ever refer to pipes as bagpipes which might go some way to explain lack of written reference)who knows, perhaps they evolved the same way as farming did - all at once all over the globe - (there is evidence to suggest that farming as a practice started globally within a very short time space). Its a good idea so why should it be assumed the pipes had a liniar development? Just a thought.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 05:22 AM

Sorefingers; your scholarly approach, your profound knowledge of the sources, and above all the intellectual vigour of your arguments leaves me speechless.

PP

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 02:29 AM

Grattan Flood (1905) insisted on Uilleann, but, as the originator of the myth that that was the original term for the pipes (he stated baldly, without a shred of evidence, that they had been blown with bellows since the 16th century), that was his privilege. It was the correct spelling, but irrelevant in that it had nothing to do with bagpipes.

Flood is rather an embarrassment to serious scholars of Irish music nowadays; he promulgated so much misinformation that they have had to work quite hard to put right the damage he did. Sorefingers' increasingly incoherent contributions to this discussion are sad evidence that there is still a long way to go. Seóirse Bodley, in his introduction to a reprint of Flood's History of Irish Music in 1969, while recognising the man's obvious patriotism, spent many words suggesting to the reader, as tactfully as he could, that there was very little in the book that could be relied upon. Donal O'Sullivan (who wrote an authoritative study of Carolan) referred to Flood in private correspondence with Anne Gilchrist as "that blot on Irish scholarship".

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 01:36 AM

Any evidence of pre-1800 Union pipes by Coyne?
Both Uillean and uilleann are spellings that have been used in the past (1906 first printed record?).

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 01:24 AM

Friend sorefingers...these are from your very first post to this thread:

Irish history has a bitter account of the evolution of what we today call the Uillean Pipes.

during the late 1700s early 1800's native instrument makers, Coyne and Egan, were perfecting the 'long bore' chanter which eventually became the modern Uillean Pipes.

most of the musicians as well as the abused piping community soon took to using and Irishgaelic word Uillean.

That's three times in one post you've misspelled the word in exactly the same manner I did. If this resulted in your low opinion of me, you must be filled with self-loathing. But don't worry. The rest of us aren't so judgmental; we know you're still a good guy regardless.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 01:00 AM

Sorefingers Ol' buddy,

Thanks for your correction. I guess my leaving an "n" off the end of Uilleann means I have no historical knowledge. By the way, do you know how to spell Dubious? How about Actually? Argument? Agenda? Musette? Tres bon? Yield? I'm afraid your misspellings are far more frequent than mine, so you shouldn't be the first to cast that particular stone.

This has obviously descended to a childish level. Here's an adult conversation we might have had:

You: "you know, Nerd, there are some Irish-language references suggesting that bagpipes existed in Ireland as early as the eleventh century, which contradicts your estimate of the thirteenth century."

Me: "Granted, but because we don't know for sure what the various names of musical instruments referred to in that period, we can't be sure. For example, we know that fidli did not refer to violins, since the violin hadn't been invented yet, and the exact form of the eleventh century fiddle remains a mystery. In the same way, pipai may refer to bagpipes or simple pipes like shawms, and scholars therefore aren't entirely convinced by this passage."

You: "I think that pipai must refer to bagpipes, since that is the primary meaning of the word in Irish ever since we can verify it. Anyway, I prefer to give Ireland the benefit of the doubt in these matters, and to believe that the pipes came over from Spain."

Me: "well, I'm kind of a stickler for hard evidence, but I grant you that what you suggest is possible."

And we could both go our merry way. But you have gone out of your way to accuse and belittle me [and others here-- I jumped in partly because of your rude suggestion that Lorcan (InObu)'s posts were nonsense] based on no knowledge of me or my positions on almost any question relevant to this discussion. Hence, we have instead descended to the level of "well, you spelled this wrong!"

Thus, sorefingers, I guess I know why your fingers are so sore. It's from all the rude gestures you're always making at the rest of us...therefore I must borrow a line from my sisters:

Talk to the hand!

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Sep 03 - 12:04 AM

Q you are a library without a license - If the Romans DID introduce the instrument to all those places - VERY DOUBIOUS - then where did the Romans get the bagpipes?

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 11:44 PM

Tell you what Doc, today I feel kidness would be the best policy.

I mean, what is there to be gained in defending one's old granfolks? or their crafts and culture? Not much, in academia I bet.

Still you could learn one little usefull fact - here - how to spell a usefull word for a Ph D person who claims so much but knows so little.

'uilleann'

Now that you have learned a bit, I have to share what I learned today.

'The more letters after a persons name, the more words they need to use to say nuttin'

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 11:23 PM

The essayist on bagpipes for the Encyclopaedia Britanica attributes the bringing of the bagpipes to the British Isles to the Romans, as I noted earlier. The evidence is there, and the Roman tibia utricularis (bagpipes with bag) is well-documented in writings and in pictures. Nero is shown playing them on a coin, so he is notorious as the first player of this instrument for whom we have a name.
The Britannica article goes on to suggest that the bagpipes perhaps persisted in rural England- they are known from post-Roman times- and were later introduced to the areas of Scotland and Ireland. This could have been a re-introduction, but that doesn't change the fact that the bagpipes were a Roman invention (no earlier evidence of the bag).

The Romans occupied the areas of Spain and Brittany. It is logical to assume that the Romans introduced the bagpipes to this area as well.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 10:17 PM

Well, sorefingers, looks like your ranting isn't convincing anyone.

One question: on what basis do you assume that I can't read French, Spanish, Latin, Irish and German? That would be dangerous in this case. (I will admit that I need a dictionary on hand to get through Irish and German) In the land where I live, to have a Ph.D. in most humanities disciplines already requires you to learn two other languages. Then there are the ones you need for your own research.

Your inarticulate sputtering thus:

et ..Who to design? Where the middle class ....live in what ...

could be answered: an instrument-maker clearly designed the pipes; there has been a middle class in Ireland for centuries, living in towns such as Dublin, Cork and Limerick (perhaps you've heard of them?), as well as on estates with small holdings. And they live in houses and other such structures.... Not so hard to answer, really. It almost sounds as if you believe Ireland was entirely made up of rural peasants. There were other people there, you know.

Believe it or not, hoss, "you know more than I" is grammatically correct, and "you know more than me" is gramatically wrong. Because the "I" is the subject of the ustated verb "know"; in other words, "you know more than I know" or "you know more than I do."

Of course, in this case apparently, "you know LESS than I" would be more accurate.

"You know more than me," by the way, would mean "you know me and you also know some other things besides me."

As to the rest of your post, it is incoherent rubbish. It's easy to say you don't believe me, but unless you actually present some evidence it won't convince your own dog.

So, Sorefingers, Hoss, just pony up. Where is the evidence? Provide a citation to reputable research that shows bagpipes in Ireland before the thirteenth century.

As for evidence to the contrary, one could start with some of the first descriptions of Irish music by Giraldus Cambrensis, the Welsh cleric who visited Ireland in 1183, 1185, and 1199. He was particularly impressed by Irish harping. He saw no evidence of pipes in Ireland (or in Scotland) at that time, but knew of them from Wales (though it is hard to know from his Latin if he meant bagpipes or more simple, mouth-blown pipes). The bagpipes are never mentioned in the early Irish vernacular literature. There are no pictorial or artistic representations of bagpipes in early Irish carvings or manuscripts. So where is all this evidence, sorefingers? Do I really need to learn my history, or is it you with a shaky grasp on things?

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 09:27 PM

oops, I meant "NOT out of period"

Robin

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 09:24 PM

Les: "One of the areas that has not been drawn upon, please forgive me if I missed this, is design and technology. [snip] cannot be made without a fair degree of engineering skill and accurate, sophisticated materials, design and technology. This makes [snip] post-industrial revolution."

I am very careful about making generic statements such as these nowadays. Unlike SoreFingers above, I'm not going to rant and rave.

As to "a fair degree of engineering skill and accurate, sophisticated materials, design and technology" - you should look at the "Anticythera device" (spelling?) which has now been reconstructed ... saw it in a Learning/Discovery channel doco, part of a series on ancient gadgets.

My point is that it was believed that it was impossible for the classical Greeks to make such a device (BC). The theory of the device is elaborate, but now out of period for the mathematicans. The pracicalities of construction are not as difficult as you might imagine.

For example a toothed cog wheel with 36 cogs made from brass?

Simple.

Use a protractor to divide the circumference of a circle into whatever number of divisions you wish. The period mathematics exist. Use a file to hand create the teeth, shaped however you want.

Slow. Tedious. Patience.

But the reconstructiom has now been done using only methods and tools known to exist and physically existing in relics and written records.

The device used a large number of cogged wheels to calculate astronomical movements. The world's first known analogue computer.

Much real knowledge was lost when the Library of Alexandria burned.

Robin

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 08:03 PM

Better give up, Nerd. It's like fighting religion. Fact can never win.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 07:20 PM

Having heard ad infinitum these stupid arguements so many times it ain't funny, Nerd, yours is particularly ribcracking. First off - see Jim Mc Lean's posting - the last time I heard the 'true inventors were theory' was from a Yiddish school of theorising; and I am far far more convinced by that than your bs, la mussette - trebon!

Secondly I completely yeild to Jim Mc Lean since he is spot on about researching very old sources. And I have many a time been convinced by accounts of the OT where the 'Scottish' people are suggested. In fact in the lack of any other good explanation - I would take THIS one far quicker than yours.

It is far more reliable!

Again I don't mean to be shrill or anything - more humorous than that
beleive me, but why don't you learn some OTHER languages so that another worldview opens your still weak mind?

"They were also, incidentally,
>>>designed<<<<< for the middle classes,"

et ..Who to design? Where the middle class ....live in what ...

Seriously you are out of your depth on this one Nerd, just accept the fact that having a Ph D does not make you G_d, does not enable you to 'predicate' truth from your mouth. You need to learn the basis of knowledge itself, then learn some history; afterwards you might have the slightest idea that one person can't know it all. Today son you are that person.

Have a nice day in your NeighboUrhood....

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,hoss
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 06:32 PM

Quote and make thee say what pleases me, Herr Ducktor ...quack!
"As I said before,"
as indeed endless thou art Oh donner of funny hats and daftie wellies!


"and as you were unable to refute except to shrilly"
if that be shrill care thee to suck from 'fact fountain' itsef; wherat thou would shatter, as if already the deed seem - ed un/done... shame indeed.

"assert that you knew more than I,"
-than 'me'- sounds more homely from on high; besides thee to bewitch not scorn ME, thusly would 'me' far quicker sleep and forget thy quacking.

"there is NO EVIDENCE that any kind of bagpipe accompanied Celts in their migration from Spain to Ireland."
Ah ha, misstep thee again Oh Ducktor, for the lack of it neither may
say a word! V Thomas Aquinas Ad Ignor et alt res, evermoreso a Ducktor which must blameless be for the sake of a 'good name'!


"(I assure you, you do not
know more about this than me, because there is nothing to know."
But there, dear feathery fiend, lays the lack of a plank where the webfeet may fall, I don't believe *y*o*u*.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 03:14 PM

Of course, for

"I used this phrasing not because I do not the evidence"

I meant

"I used this phrasing not because I do not know the evidence"

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 03:11 PM

Sorefingers,

Your hysterical response to my previous post suggests that I am foolish to attempt this, but here I go.

My credentials include a doctorate in folklore, training in anthropology, archaeology and ethnomusicology, as well as one book and hundreds of articles about Celts, ancient and modern, including music. I am neither English nor Scottish, as you seem to think, nor am I an apologist for English policies in Ireland. I am also not Irish (which I believe makes me more objective in this than you) I have harbored a lifelong love of Irish people, culture, music, etc.

As I said before, and as you were unable to refute except to shrilly assert that you knew more than I, there is NO EVIDENCE that any kind of bagpipe accompanied Celts in their migration from Spain to Ireland. (I assure you, you do not know more about this than me, because there is nothing to know. There is no evidence. Unless you can cite a viable source?)

2. You say that "The idea of a Parlour in an Irish Mudcottage of the period is as credible as indoor plumbing in a Scottish Mudcottage of same the period..." is essentially correct.   But I did not say there were parlours in mudcottages. I said the Uillean pipes were a parlor instrument. This means that they were designed to be played indoors. They were also, incidentally, designed for the middle classes, not the poor, who rarely have innovative products aimed at them. Anyone who has bought a new set of Uillean pipes should be able to guess that the inhabitant of a mudcottage living on subsistence farming and/or wages could not afford one. Laboring people got their pipes (like most of their fiddles and 8-key and Boehm system wooden flutes) secondhand from middle class people, so these instruments were not designed specifically for their lifestyle. They were parlor intstruments removed from the parlor.

3. Even if I am wrong about the banning of piping in England (and I believe that the evidence in all these cases is frequently overstated), this does not disprove my point, which was that bellows-blown pipes were developed in places where piping was NOT banned, such as France. Thus to assert that the move to a smaller, quieter, bellows-blown pipe was necessarily a reaction to the banning of piping is bad logic. Can you point to a historical document such as a diary or letter in which a pipemaker writes "in order to avoid prosecution under the new anti-rioting laws, I am creating a smaller, quieter bagpipe"? I think not. Which means from the perspective of a historian of any nationality, there is NO EVIDENCE that this was the impetus behind the development of the Uillean pipes.

4. You mock my statement that the idea of using a bellows to blow a bagpipe does not SEEM to have been Irish in origin. I used this phrasing not because I do not the evidence, but because evidence in matters like this is almost never conclusive. From the best evidence available, this was a French innovation. But obviously fresh evidence would require a reassessment of this position.

I find it amusing that you take an absence of maniacal devotion to a position to be evidence for a weak argument. In fact it is because, contrary to your belief, I have no agenda in this. In archaeology and musicology as in all things, we build our theories around the available facts, we do not create facts to fit our theories. If you show me evidence of an Irish bellows-blown bagpipe that predates the earliest French evidence I'll gladly change my opinion.

But, like they say in my neighborhood, I ain't holding my breath!

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 02:03 PM

Sorry, smallpiper, I've never seen them.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 01:29 PM

The big thing with bellows pipes is that the players can sing and talk and smoke and drink while playing them, which isn't possible with the mouth version. A much more civilised procedure altogether.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: smallpiper
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 01:23 PM

Jim McLean - France and parts of spain are stuffed with their own versions of bellows pipes!

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Pied Piper
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 12:09 PM

Sorefingers; you are to Ethnographic history what Butyric acid is to perfume.
PP

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: pattyClink
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 10:06 AM

To answer Sheila: all the skilled musicians I have heard talking about them call them ILL-uhn.

To the group: thanks for this thread, I was idly following it as a curiosity. Yesterday I got to see Paddy Keenan at a festival. I didn't realize what a big deal he was at the time. It was really gratifying and impressive to hear a Piper with a capital P. I'm afraid our heat, humidity and airconditioning were giving his poor instruments fits. I was struck by the no-big-deal attitude behind the great skill, and the giant hands of the man, they looked like my gramps' and like farmers and fishermen sometimes have.

I brought some neophytes to the festival and they were asking me about wooden instruments--the length of pennywhistles but made of wood, thick like recorders. Are these just called 'whistles' as well as the narrow metal things or do they have their own names? I just had never paid attention to them before and I didn't have a clue.

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: Jim McLean
Date: 08 Sep 03 - 09:17 AM

I have been following this thread with great interest. I play(ed) the Scottish pipes, the piob mhor, and have travelled extensively but nowhere have I seen or heard bellow pipes except in Ireland and England. In Scottish Gaelic discussions re bagpipes (or pipe, singular) there is no mention of uillean pipes but a union pipe is called piob na comh sheirm which could be translated as an harmonious pipe. A bellows pipe, piob shionnaich, is called an Irish bagpipe.
A recent posting said 'chanter' was English which, of course, comes from French and Latin before that. There are two Gaelics words for chanter, feadan or whistle, and seannsair which, to my ears, sounds like a Gaelic interpretation of chanter (soft ch sound).
As far as antiquity is concerned there is a mention in Edward Dwelly, quoting from The Expository Times, 1905 "…. The use of the bagpipe can be traced to the most remote antiquity, although it seems, if not comparatively modern in connection with the Highlands, at least to have held a second place in comparison with the harp in the estimation of the bulk of the people, until the last few centuries. The Greek word sumphonfa, which appears as an Aramic loan-word in Daniel, iii, 5, is translated as 'bagpipe' by every competent translator. There is no doubt that the verse relating the arrival of the prodigal son's brother in the New Testament, should be rendered "now his elder son was in the field, and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard the bagpipes and dancing."

Subject: RE: Ullean Pipes
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 07 Sep 03 - 02:05 AM

Thanks Q.
I have to go to work, now but I will check the links out later. Good point about craft but before Abraham Darby et al every piece of iron had to be beaten into shape so it does limit what can be done, however this may prove irrelevant

Cheers