BS: Is Academic authority a lie?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 02:15 AM

Agrees with Rapaire, and loves the quotation; in fact without looking who dares even mention evidence?

Since public forums and society on the internet, I have learned that not only is ADHD common among US college students, other less known fixations - too much drugs and sex and dyslexions etc - often accompany higher intelligence.

Sooo instead of finding an intelligent person at the other end of the
perfectly scripted post, one often finds a lying nutcase with a highschool cert; and at the other end of the slapped-out badly organised misspelled post one finds real people with brains, some of which are gifted.

In fact during WW2 in the UK when the chips were down and genius had to be found, few if any were graduates and even less could speak let alone write perfect English prose.

Therefore I assert here that a persons ability to write textbook English is a sign of a fusspot not a genius, that people who seek and obtain with great labor letters after their name are weakminded nerds with an inferiority complex, and that those invited into research while yet undergraduates are the real brains who truely deserve the title 'Doctor'. ( standard procedure in the old days BSc > Phd otherwise the person got an MA and was regarded politely OC as an idiot with a degree )

I assert that those dweebs who hang on in College for half a lifetime to get MAs and Ph Ds devalue the University and its awards in our society.

Therefore I would like to see new standards which again enable the gifted to protect us from the insanity of Iraq, Enron, Nasa, Nato etc etc.

In short, if we allow these idiots to run society then when things go wrong we can only blame ourselves. I say kick em out, kick em down and bury them forever!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 03:46 AM

Well, Sorefingers, finally you've said something we can all agree with, to wit: We in America are afflicted with "too much drugs and sex and dyslexions."

I, like most other people with good grammar, am really "a lying nutcase with a highschool cert." (Not to mention a ruthless maniac who moonlights as a shrewd and calculating bookie!) And the sad thing is, many of us in America's universities, as you say, are just like me.

But in your great wisdom you provide a healthy solution! We will abolish all MAs and PhDs! We will also all affect verbal tics and poor grammar because that will make us sound smarter to your ears. Then we will all bow to your superior intellect and lap up your knowledge with our outstretched tongues.

Oh, and by the way: don't bother to provide any evidence for ANY of your claims. I know they're true just because YOU say they are!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 09:17 AM

Much as I have problems with the academy (being a paid up member), I think it is worth considering that a world without universities would be infinitely poorer, and, with all of their flaws, I am glad they are there -- at their best as a possible counterpoint to much of everything else. They can provide a space for people to pause and reflect on the world around them -- though many forces internal and external naturally hate the prospect of such spaces. Who would willingly among the powers that be support the creation of a critical, thinking mass population? They begrudge that part, so that they can get the things they really want. So universities are usually betrayed (as Amos says) into factories of information processing.

Still, they are a curious anachronism -- why a medieval religious institution crossed with humanism should have staggered into the 21st century is strange. The moment when they sold much of their souls was when the Germans invented the research university (synthetic chemicals, weapons) in the late 19th century. We have been struggling with this ever since.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 09:40 AM

Oh, Dear,

As a Plus 5 SD IQ with no completed Tertiary Studies, (and who has the knowledge of Grammar & Spelling but makes lots of typos due to a micro-motor problem since birth) I don't know whether to feel complimented or insulted!

I just MUST challenge this claim about the relative percentage of graduates in research in WWII. The "Boffins" WERE Graduates - I don't know of any who weren't... and that area has always been a centre point of my reading. Turing, who was the acknowledged genius of breaking cryptography was... wasn't he? He had lots of helpers who were not, who are credited with making little individual "sparks of genius" that contributed significantly, but, so what does that prove?

I am looking forqward to the carefully researched and documented background information which surely must have been relaesed under the 50 year rule by now - oh wait on, 1945 + 50 ... Maths isn't my speciality to be forwarded.

People like "sorefingers" are so much fun. Look at all the good hard intellectual work he has inspired in so many threads.

He is a Troll.

But I have my own theory. Come a little closer, so they don't hear...

You see, when things get a little quiet around here, people like Max and Joe, and others who have been around for a while and shall be nameless take turns to log into a Guest Account (the current one is "sorefingers") and start stirring the pot to stimulate the discussions.

My proof is simple. The line of "argument" that this GUEST takes is so simple and predictable, that it doesn't even have to be the same one person doing it.

So "sorefingers" isn't a real person!

Q.E.D.

Robin
Author of The Fooles Troupe.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 10:38 AM

I said, "remember the qualifications" that Dr. Arthur C. Clarke put into his "Law." Neither he nor I said that it is an absolute.

If, Sorefingers, you want to read about a world from which academics and thinkers have been effectively banished, I recommend Miller's "A Canticle For Leibowitz."

Except for those times when I deliberately chose to ignore the rules of grammar and spelling, I prefer not to look like a fool. They are tools which enhance our ability to communicate clearly, something which is sorely needed today. Moreover, I abhor the contemporary lack of emphasis placed on grammar and spelling. I lament atrocities as "Car 4 Sale" and "ic" and "50cc3r rul3z" and "more clearer" and the decline of the comparative and the rise of the redundant phrase ("this point in time" for example).

Language is not a cudgel with which to pound blindly; it is and has always been a rapier upon which to skewer the point you wish to make.

Rapaire,
(BA, MS, and a bunch of other academic and professional credentials.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 11:10 AM

Rapaire...

I too detest such things like "50cc3r rul3z" - which were supposed to be witticisms uttered by "Hackers"... but at least this is not as bad as things like "cLeVeRmE!"

While I won't repeat here the difference between "Hackers" & "Crackers", the "gem" above really only belongs to "Script Kiddies", those not doing anything creative, but just blindly following formulae. They can still cause much damage...

Interestingly the "double negative" expression thing much decried by Academics !!! (I AM aware of the thread I'm posting in!) has been collected and documented in Folklore (or do I mean Libguistics?) as a genuine different "class of speech" (can't think of the correct term right now) in which the speakers clearly know that they are simply meaning extra emphasis rather than ignorantly expressing a double negative. I seem to remember that some languages other than English do this sort of "Academically pronounced bad" thing anyway (was it german? can't remember!) Anyone telling such a speaker that they mean the opposite is obviously ignorant and stupid .. and well they may be in that particular culture.

Incidentally, while cliches may be frowned on, have you ever thought that Shakespeare is full of cliches? Of course, they weren't cliches at the time he created them.... :-)

Robin
(who now stands revealed as part of the secret plot to surreptiously steal this thread away from name callers and others with such limited debating skills!)
and is getting tired and a little silly...

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 01:19 PM

"People like "sorefingers" are so much fun....
He is a Troll."

Just so long as you can irritate us to respond to your silly insults

Heres a real insult!

Robin is a stinky drawered old fart with no teeth in the backend of crapwater creek nowhere Oz.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 01:26 PM

I was just fascinated when Ben played the Uillean Pipes at Chorlton Folk Club, which meets on Thursday at the South West Manchester Cricket Club, om Ellesmere Road.

But what can I say? I love folk music and the history of science and technology and this and the Pipes thread have pulled out so much fascinating information and quality of thought. I value all that people have contributed even though I can't really see the point of most of what sorefingers has posted.

As Nerd tirelessly points out: evidence is what matters. In that sense I don't think the strategies involved in any accademic study vary much. Eveidence, evidence, evidence....... hypothesis ... testing testing... stands up .... falls down? Scienec, Humanities or whatever. The odd one out is religion. Peopel can believe what they like. L Ron Hubbard probably got bored and invented the Church of Scientology. When Watt improved the steam engine it was a different kind of event.

Thank you all!

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 03:09 PM

Don't ever let school interfere with your education !!

That said, this thread is merely another way to polarize folks. Do what you will and think what you think---and then live and let live. GET THE FACTS any way you can---but realize that many of those "true facts" are possibly/probably wrong.

For me, the sad part was when the specialized Doctors and their tunnelvision missed my diagnosis so often and so grievously. I trusted their so-called expertise---and I am now much the worse for it.

My advice is BE YOUR OWN BEST ADVOCATE.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Sep 03 - 04:55 PM

The rule against double negatives is a carry-over from classical logic, where "two negatives make a positive" as in the statement "Harry is not nobody" or "Mary is not a non-drinker." It is, however, misapplied to English grammar, where such construction might be used to subtly convey information or to emphasize a point.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: Nerd
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 01:17 AM

The other thing odd about forbidding the double negative in English is that in Anglo-Saxon, our most direct parent, the double negative served as emphasis, as in

ne beo ge nateshwon deade

You shall (not) not at all die.

In Middle English, sentences could carry double negatives ("he ne lefte nat" for he did not leave) or even triple or quadruple negatives. This was great for Chaucer, who in a negative sentence could practically stick a ne, nat, no or noght wherever he needed a syllable! ("He nevere yet no vilaynie ne sayde...unto no maner wight" means roughly "He never yet said not no villainy unto no-one" but means simply "he spoke ill to no one" or "he never spoke falsely to anyone."

Meanwhile, one of our other close ancestor-languages, French, has the double negative by default. You MUST say ne...pas (or ne...point, ne...plus, ne...personne, etc...) to form a grammatically correct French sentence.

As Rapaire says, it was only when grammarians got hold of modern English, and Latin rules were applied to English sentences, that double-negatives were disallowed. Much as the so-called "split infinitive" was often disallowed, because in Latin the infinitive is a single word. But again, our great writers of yore, like Chaucer and Shakespeare, freely split infinitives, and most enlightened grammarians today allow it as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 03:26 AM

Aw...

sorefingers...

"Robin is a stinky drawered old fart with no teeth in the backend of crapwater creek nowhere Oz."

NO FAIR!




























You peeked!

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 03:34 AM

Academic authority isn't a lie, but it has its limits. Like everything else.

I have an MFA, "Master of Fine Arts." This a "professional" degree, and means I can paint, draw, and stuff like that. It has less rank and prestige than an MA, "Master of Arts," which is academic: scholarly. An MA can go on and get a doctorate, but an MFA is (or was when I got it) a terminal degree. Sounds ominous, doesn't it?

If Rembrandt were to come back from the dead the highest degree he could get, based on his abilities, would be an MFA, but someone else could get a Phd by writing *about* Rembrandt.

If you want to learn *about* artists and art history, and capital-A Art, ask an Academic. He can tell you many interesting and useful things, but he may say foolish things when talking about the actual doing of art. If you want to learn *how to* draw or paint or sculpt, or play fiddle, ask someone who's doing it, whether he has a degree or not.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 03:39 AM

>> Nerd,

Serious now ("sorefingers" has given me my share of mirth for today!)

Thanks for the details on the double negative stuff.

I'm a generalist, not a specialist - apart from being a "ecialising Generalist"

I knew I had stumbled over that sort of info a while ago...

>> GUEST,Les in Chorlton, Manchester : "I value all that people have contributed even though I can't really see the point of most of what sorefingers has posted."

ROFL

Now you're beginning to understand... Les, :-) I just love the delicate degree of subtleness that English can carry...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 04:02 AM

And so "sorefingers",

I think you have proved your argument, but not necessarily in the way you might have intended.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The question you submited for debate was "Is Academic authority a lie?"

Yes, we mostly basicly agree with you.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Without discussing Mr G W Bush's MA are we to ready to accept any crackpot theory offered by a Ph D?"

Probably. Most people who are ignorant in a field of knowledge would often believe those who merely shout the loudest. The trouble is that here many do have some considerable knowledge and can often detect when nonsense is being spouted. Others of us, find our "bullshit detector" triggers when people basicly start shouting, throwing tantrums, and are unable to back up THEIR personal OPINION with any reasonable attempt at documentation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Have Academic standards fallen to such new depths that the only requirement is good gramar [sic] and spelling but no care for truth and reason?

Many would say "NO!" and "YES!" respectively. Refer in other threads to which you have contributed as demonstration of the first part.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Are postgrads now unemployable becuase they don't know what there are taking about?"

Many would say "YES!"

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"If so what are we the rest of society with our humble Technnical and Educational College, older University degrees etc to do?"

Improve our Education.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Should we establish [sic] Global plan to weed out the gramar [sic] nazis and vett [sic] in those who do know their stuff."

[scratches head] No, let's just all spell how ever we feel today, secure in the knowledge that having thus obfuscated our expressions of thought, no one can possibly understand what we are saying well enough to tell us that we are delusional in our belief structure.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Finaly [sic] are people who collect letters after their names, sick in the head?;

Some well may be. But it would depend on the type of sickness. Many types of "head sickness" would obviate reasonable progress in almost any form of Academic Study, especially those with substantial components of abstract thought.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
is it a case of the more letters the more stupid the person, or is it childish insecurity in an otherwise normal intelligent person?"

Maybe.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"- and if so is it now time for the Global 'basic intelligence test', perhaps the 'basic topics tests' on everything from bagpipes to windmills?"

Definitely.

Oh, wait....

What makes you think that you would pass?

Oh, I see, you are the expert examiner...


Come again. No charge for Fools. Or even for you.

:-)

Robin
The Author
The Fooles Troupe
The Virtual Fooles Troupe

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 09:50 AM

Shucks, Nerd, a split infinitive makes great kindling.

Infinitives grow to be eight, sometime ten, feet tall out here in Idaho and the burn cleanly and well. Not the sort of thing you'd use to keep a fire going, as they burn too quickly, but a split infinitive, as I said, makes good kindling. Early settlers used them to make baskets and chair seats, too, and because they burn so quickly the sawdust was sometimes used as a substitute for gunpowder. The roots are edible -- they taste like chicken -- and a tea made from the bark is said to cure ague, female complaints, loss of manly vigor, miasma, consumption, blockage of the bowels, glanders, softening of the brain, jaundice, ringworm, drunkeness, blackleg, rheumatism, sleeplessness, tone deafness, botfly, liver complaints, headache, burning urination, and breathlessness. The leaves work very well as a substitute for both toilet paper and chewing gum.

All in all, infinitives are downright useful l'il things.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 11:13 AM

Nowadays you can get a degree in pluming, in hacksaw shapening, in dog grooming, it that what yall did?

There is this dude out here that has an MA in house wiring. He teaches
a buch of other topics including English.

BTW Smellyfart, different usage in English writing is called style. What you are trying to do is called literary criticism, and you are not doing too good.

You are no longer welcome here, so why doncha go and troll in other threads?

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 11:25 AM

Is Academic authority a lie?

not so much as a parallel reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: GUEST,troll
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 12:30 PM

Nerd
"It is, however, misapplied to English grammar,"

No comment needed ...jez look at all the commas, WHAT is it trying to say?

Stinkydrawers
"I think you have proved your argument,"

Stinkydrawers 'arguements' are won or lost - theories are proven.

haw haw haw haw haw haw

_|_

phewwwwieeee what a pong

;0)

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 01:39 PM

'Nowadays you can get a degree in pluming, in hacksaw shapening, in dog grooming,'

Is any of this any of this true?

I can't see the point or value of much of the last few posts. Perhaps we should all stop. I think Nerd et al made most sense and perhaps we should thank them and move on.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Sep 03 - 01:54 PM

I agree, Les. Ranting is not discussion. I'll not post here any more.

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 09:56 AM

Trying to talk sense with a Fool is like trying to teach a pig to sing.

A lot of frustration, a terrible noise, and it just annoys the pig.

Thanks to all those with sensible contributions.

Goodbye.

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Is Academic authority a lie?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 15 Sep 03 - 10:01 AM

There's an old Zen maxim that says 'Unask the question; it is illelevant'.
Ph. Ds span the range of idiots (not even savant ones) to very knowledgable geniuses in their feild. Sometimes when they go outside their field of expertize they fall flat on their faces
{I'm a Ph. D. expert in a narrow field, which counts for nothing
here or elsewhere outside that field, and few of my friends know that I'm have Ph.D., with postdoctoral work under President Kennedy's science advisor, who was in Washington, DC, while I was his post-doc )