when does today become tomorrow

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 11:32 AM

well!! after 3 days at the FSGW Getaway and 3 days since, I am heartened to see that my squirrel is still alive and promoting SUCH learned debate!...and we see from the debate that there are several classes of men, though only one basic class of squirrel. (We just saw 3 squirrels yesterday who were having such fun that they could not have cared less WHICH side of the tree they were on *grin*)

The men (read 'people') are divided into those, like the group in the example, who thought that the question COULD be answered and provided complex analyses of their argument, and those who didn't give a s*** about silly questions like this, and those, like me and 'ol Will James, who just simply point out that humans are capable of HAVING this discussion, and thus use subjective linguistic positions to defend their personal bias...("well, what **I** mean by 'around' [or 'morning'] is..") ...and what can you say to someone who won't agree with your basic definition??? "Folk? Traditional? Why that's easy, it means.........

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Hrothgar
Date: 22 Oct 03 - 04:49 AM

This is what you get for trying to divide something continuous into discrete measurements.

So there!

:-)

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 06:42 AM

artbrooks - Methinks you haved formulated the most important question of this thread:

Perhaps at least as important to many (perhaps a majority?) of Mudcatters, when does the sun really go over the yardarm?

This can be decided only by diuturnal observation of the sun, the yardarm, and the keg of rum.
In my experience the shortest observer sees the sun go soonest.

Cheers!
Wilfried

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 Oct 03 - 03:41 AM

Sorry if this is not done and understood in English:

I have used
ante (post) meridiem as short for
'ante meridiem (or: post meridiem)'.
Similarly, 'before (after) meridian' has to be read as 'before meridian (or: after meridian)'.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 07:01 PM

Then too, people "take a fit", don't they? At least that's what they say they do... Little Hawk, is that a regionalism? I always heard it as 'pitched' or 'threw' a fit.

Both NASA and an astronomy professor explain that ante (post) meridiem is correct instead of ante (post) meridian. One site explains nicely that 'before (after) meridian' would be correct too but that 'ante meridian' mixes English and Latin in an unexeptable way. Wolfgang

Wolfgang, I don't understand that at all. Is it a typo? 'post' and 'ante' don't go together in my mind, except as opposites. What am I missing?

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 04:40 PM

Sorry, Muppet, there is only now.

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: maire-aine
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 09:19 AM

In the immortal words of Janis Joplin, "...as we learned on the bus, it's all the same ****in' day, man."

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: GUEST,KB
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 09:15 AM

Obviously the men weren't going round the squirrel!
If you were to draw a line from the squirrel to the men & then analysed the movement of the line, you would see that the squirrel & the men were at opposite ends of a line that was pivoting around a point somewhere in the middle of the tree.
So I would argue that both the squirrel & the men were going around the tree.
If the pivot had been at the squirrel then the squirrel would not remain hidden by the tree. Furthermore, whether the squirrel was facing toward the men the whole time is completely irrelevant.

Anyway - I am really enjoying the image of tommorrow being merely a time squirrel running round the midnight tree. Cheers Bill D!

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: artbrooks
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 09:14 AM

Perhaps at least as important to many (perhaps a majority?) of Mudcatters, when does the sun really go over the yardarm?

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: muppett
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 09:00 AM

By eck Wolfgang wot did you have for breakfast, could we have that in plain speak now, when does today become tomorrow

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 08:23 AM

Both NASA and an astronomy professor explain that ante (post) meridiem is correct instead of ante (post) meridian. One site explains nicely that 'before (after) meridian' would be correct too but that 'ante meridian' mixes English and Latin in an unexeptable way.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: GUEST,CrazyEddie
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 04:58 AM

Doesn't time fly?
Sure it only seems like yesterday, that we were talking about today, as it it was tomorrow!

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: muppett
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 04:31 AM

Blooming eck , What a discussion I started, but I think I'll take Mrs. Duck advice or just say see yer later.

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 20 Oct 03 - 02:54 AM

oh yeah, Blind DRunk - I know this feeling well from my binges when at university. When we went home and saw the godfearing citizens going to work we knew that tomorrow had become today and could take a nap soothed and relaxed.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 04:12 PM

Then there was the man who sat up all night, wondering where the Sun went....



Suddenly it dawned on him

Nigel

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 01:21 PM

Yeah? Well I wasnt asleep at midnight last night man I was rockin on eh? I aint what you call a godfearing citizen I guess! Man I am SO hungover today that I wish it was yesterday...or tomorow. Hell - i wish it was last month! I feel like a flippin dead skunk lyin on the side of the road. Anyway I was awake at midnight last night and I dindt see nothin unusual except a fat girl in a wet T-shirt that had had beer sp8lled on it and achshally that aint too unusual around here anyway - know what I mean? What was today yesterday become today today even though today used to be tomorrow yesterday and I am SICK as a dog....Ohhhhhhh....

Gimme a flippin aspirin.

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 19 Oct 03 - 10:33 AM

No, as we have read, tomorrow tomorrow will be today and today will be yesterday tomorrow.
Therefore the transit from one day to the next is put at midnight sharp, when every godfearing citizen is sound asleep in his bed and hasn't to worry about this question rising up so early in the morn.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: GUEST,Blind DRunk in Blind River
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 05:00 PM

I'll tell ya when today becomes tomorow eh? Today becomse tomororw TOMORROW! Thats when. Geez! Whatta buncha losers!!!

Ya dont' have to be a flippin scyentist to figger this one out eh?

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: rock chick
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 04:51 PM

Tomorrow never comes, its comes as today and becomes yesterday, so to speak

rc

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 03:34 PM

Mr Red -

I suppose I should have clarified that you'd use the stick method in a shooting party. The original premise was that the group merely wanted to see the squirrel, in which case sending one of the group out to the other side of the tree would be fairly safe. Although if the group couln't come up with that idea, a loner might get lost...

John

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 03:30 PM

Squirrels are dumb??? Ever seen how people act in heavy traffic? I think the squirrels are way ahead... No squirrel has ever made a contribution to either the Republican or Democratic parties, and male squirrels live alone, just visiting the females now and then, and get to sleep in comfort through the bad winter weather, snug inside their little leafy bachelor pads. Squirrels are smart!

It's fun going around and around a tree trunk and causing the squirrel to go around and around as well. For all I know, it may be just as much fun for the squirrel.

- LH

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 12:32 PM

The next question in this thread clearly is: If midnight comes from "the middle of the night," where does "noon" come from?

As mentioned above, when you awaken, it is today. So where did tomorrow go?

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Pied Piper
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 07:23 AM

I think we need a new category of discussion, D for Drivel.
PP

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Mr Red
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 06:35 AM

JohnInKansas

I think your group will get smaller after each squirrel because the "one" is gonna be in the line of fire of at least one of the others.

Just a thought.

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 04:57 AM

Re squirrels:

In my neighborhood, everybody knows that if you stand real quiet and throw a stick so it lands on the other side of the tree, the squirrel will come around where you can shoot the little sucker and then have squirrel soup. (actually seldom done, 'cause squirrels don't make very good soup.)

An alternative would be to have all but one of the group shut up (maybe an impossible condition), while one person walks to the other side of the tree. The squirrel will come around so that all the rest of them can see him - until one of them moves - at which time the other guy will get a look. (squirrels are really pretty dumb.)

The example is more appropriately used in the context of how a group of people will stick together in following an unproductive activity - as a group, when there are productive solutions available that require independent action on the part of one or more individual members of the group.(?)

(Although the intended illustration was apt, and clear)

John

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 02:45 AM

The Anonymous GUEST has hit the nail on the head.
"Today never becomes tomorrow. It becomes yesterday."

"There be Wisdom in the Words of A Fool"
THE AUTHOR

A sage saying, not a personal attack GUEST!

Robin

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 02:23 AM

Today never becomes tomorrow. It becomes yesterday.

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 18 Oct 03 - 01:07 AM

I agree with you 100% Gray D.

my brain hurts too.
Come on Little Hawk, were you really kidding about the angels and dogs? I thought that was a nice touch.
Now back to the squirrel thing... Does it really matter to the squirrel if it's today or tommorrow as long as it got all it's nuts in the hole yesterday?
Rustic
Amos- you are the fun man aren't you?

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Gray D
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 09:10 PM

Erm . . . why do so many of you keep referring to midnight as a definitive boundary? Wherever you are on the planet it happens at a different . . . er . . . time. I stay up all night sometimes and I've never thought of myself as living tomorrow.

Amos nailed it. You live now; tomorrow is a concept not a reality, as those of you who die in your sleep tonight (whenever that is) won't find.

My brain hurts . . .

Gray D

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Deckman
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 08:34 PM

Foolestroupe ... I appreciate your posting of the words for "Tomorrow." I well remember the night that Bob Gibson sat down and tried to teach me that song. It's still one of my most forgettable songs: there's a joke there if you look hard enough.

To add something new to this thread: My late and WONDERFUL Father used to say the following phrase to us carpenters when we arrived (late) for work each morning ... "Today is the day we were going to do such a hell of a lot about yesterday!" CHEERS, Bob

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 08:32 PM

Ha! Ha! Good stuff, Amos. Yeah, I guess the new day really gets started sometime in the wee hours of the morning, and that's why people in ashrams usually get up at 4:00 or 5:00 AM. It just becomes official when the sun rises, that's all. I've been told (by people who definitely are in a position to know) that the best time to meditate is very early in the morning while things are still very quiet and dark outside.

I was just kidding about the dogs and angels.

- LH

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 07:49 PM

Well, I'd say it happens a good long time before dawn, which is defined by the arrival of light, I guess, and otherwise doesn't mean much. If you take my meaning, LH.

As for dogs and angels, I think neither as judgmental as you describe. It takes great courage to sustain contradiction without flinching, especially while on the way to the can. Something to keep in mind when that subtle feeling of metaphysical superiority overtakes you and you realize that you, too, will need to take a shit somewhere.


A

(And a beautiful turn of phrase it is, too for all of that!)

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 07:39 PM

Tomorrow starts at dawn. However, when it does it suddenly, miraculously ceases being tomorrow and becomes today. Thus tomorrow can never actually be experienced, only anticipated, just as yesterday can only be remembered. So there really is only now...at any given time.

This means one can plan for the not-real while experiencing the real and waiting for the not-real to become real.

Very neat system, I think.

Martin - I too have always been puzzled as to why people speak of "taking" a shit or "taking" a leak when in fact they do the exact opposite. Then too, people "take a fit", don't they? At least that's what they say they do... We need to establish a national committee to analyze misuses of the word "take", and get to the bottom of this at once!

Take the extreme case of the man who says he "doesn't give a shit" and then in the same breath says "I gotta take a shit" as he slouches off to the restroom. This is clearly a man who has so much of the brown stuff between his ears that he can't think straight! His life is a walking contradiction. Dogs and angels laugh as he passes by, and (most) women regard him with amused disdain, barely tolerating his inane comments.

It's an epidemic in places like Lubbock, Texas, I hear...

- LH

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 03:48 PM

Er ---- today becomes next week about two weeks before the pay cheque comes.

Call me a pedant but usage dictates that 12 noon is the am pm boundary but during daylight saving time can we in all honesty call it a meridian?
Unless we are invoking the coriolis rule when time aims for mid-day and by the time it gets there the earth has moved so we get dizzy in the afternoon thinking about when it would have been if we had started just a few minutes before midnight so as to arrive at the plughole exactly at dinnertime.

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 11:49 AM

Wilfred:

I think usage has transcended your pedantry. The American Heritage dictionary says:

antemeridian

SYLLABICATION: an·te·me·rid·i·an
PRONUNCIATION:   nt-m-rd-n
ADJECTIVE: Of, relating to, or taking place in the morning.
ETYMOLOGY: Latin antemerdinus : ante-, ante- + merdinus, of noon; see meridian.

The meridian is the elevation of the sun at local noon. So the usage is perfectly sensible.

A

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Beverley Barton
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 11:23 AM

muppet, it sounds to me like you've too much time on your hands!
                     el autentico caminar!

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 11:09 AM

pedant alert - not meridian (that's a theoretical line touching all places with noon at the same time)!
am = ante meridiem = before noon
pm = post meridiem = after noon
m = meridies = the middle of the day = high noon : draw your guns!

If you have problems with tomorrow, use the tactical time (time zone Zulu):
Retraite will be signalled at 182300 z oct 03 (today at 10 pm over here) and Reveille at 200645 z oct 03 (tomorrow at 5:45 am, in the bloody morning).

Wilfried

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 10:21 AM

if an existentialist squirrel went 'round a tree at midnight in the forest, and found no pine nuts, would he look again today? or tomorrow? and could all the pragmatists dance on the head of a pin?

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 17 Oct 03 - 12:00 AM

After midnight I found myself philosophing about a squirrel that does't know if it is today, that made him want to collect pine nuts or tommorrow that made him need pine nuts. I just figured that the squirrel is a funny, little, solemn creature that let's it young go at an unnatural age, therefore it has no training, in growing to really know the answer.

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 09:06 PM

I'm just being argumentative because I'm in that sort of mood, but I just didn't think it was that good of an example. I'll stop now. The time argument DOES work for me because, for me, it seems to be more about perception. If it's 1:00 AM and I tell someone "I'll talk to you tomorrow," I don't think there's any chance I'll be misunderstood. I might be corrected, but not misunderstood - unless I'm on the phone to someone in a place where it's, say, 7:00 AM.

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Joybell
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 09:00 PM

It's already tomorrow here! It's a lovely day. You'll like it.

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 08:57 PM

oh...BTW..." If they had gone around in different directions, SOMEbody would have seen the squirrel's back" yes, but EACH man would have to be considered individually...and each had different opinions of the language.

(me? Tomorrow is anytime past midnight...and 'morning' is as soon as I can see that the second hand has clear the 12 on the clock! Or whenever I wake up after sleeping...depending on who I'm arguing with....)

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Joybell
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 08:55 PM

The clue is in your name, muppett! I've seen the Muppetts do their routine at the train station and heard them sing "The Train To Morrow" I remember that it all boils down to the fact that you can't catch a train to Morrow because it's already half-way on its way. Scary!

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 08:47 PM

(crossed posts, Jeri)...all I was saying was that Will James was showing how we equivocate on what we mean by various words. If someone decides HE means that 'around' means seeing the squirrel's back, what are we to say? The question might have been have been ASKED better, and there was no doubt they went 'around' the tree...but the point is that there are all sorts of situations where hooman beans DO this kind of bickering...as in "is that song REALLY 'traditional'?" I have my opinion, but seems to me I vaguely remember differences of opinion.

How old is 'old'? My kid thinks it is anythink past 30...the AARP starts chasing you at 55...the Feds have 62½, or 65 for various purposes...I choose to think it begins when I can no longer cut the mustard..*grin*

'Ol Will James didn't solve everything, as Philosophers simply would never be happy with dull old pragmatism, but it is well not to miss his point.

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 08:42 PM

Yep, Amos, that's pretty much what I said. (24:00 was the END of the day.) My brain hurts...

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Amos
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 08:16 PM

Nononono, Jeri!! It's 00:00:00.001 which is the first split second of the next day -- but don't call it tomorrow -- too late!! :>) Well some call it 12:00:00.001...dunno why.



A

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 08:05 PM

Hey, I'm not splitting hares, it was James who was splitting squirrels!

Now somebody explain why 12AM isn't 12PM! On the 24-hour clock, it's 2400, which is the END of the day. After that is tomorrow. When we go to the AM/PM system it's 12AM, or the START of the day - with an awfully large number for a beginning!

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:53 PM

the beginning of my post should say "William JAMES", but it's not relevant, 'cause you all would rather split them hairs that have a neat, pragmatic solution ;>)

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:51 PM

No matter when you go, then you are. Uh...
It's probably just easier to say 'later'.

Bill, of course they're going around the damned squirrel. If you're on a merry-go-round, you're going around the pole in the center whether it rotates with you or not. You are circumnavigating the pole and the squirrel. It doesn't matter if he's staring at you the whole time. If they had gone around in different directions, SOMEbody would have seen the squirrel's back. Does that mean that some of them were going around the squirrel and some weren't? Whether or not you go around something shouldn't have anything to do with whether it has a face or not.

Subject: RE: when does today become tomorrow
From: artbrooks
Date: 16 Oct 03 - 07:48 PM

My reerence for midnight being 12 A.M. is the New York Public Library "Desk Reference." I'd be very happy to see an authoritative source of alternative information.