BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?

Subject: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: GUEST,dirtdauber
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 01:57 PM

Never hear the terms "illegitimate children" or "bastards" or "out of wedlock" anymore. Thoughts? Opinions? Facts? Bullshit?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 02:13 PM

Well we have a new Canadian Prime Minister just appointed by a clique of Liberal hacks.
To my mind this is illigitimate. As to him being a bastard that is rather subjective , but hey, if the shoe fits..........

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 02:22 PM

I haven't heard those terms used seriously in ages. "Wedlock" seems like something one should be trying to get out of anyway. Like "I thought I was just getting married, but found myself wedlocked. Anybody got a pair of bolt-cutters?"

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 03:12 PM

I heard a long time ago that "There are no illegitimate children. There are only illegitimate parents."

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: GUEST,footloose
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 03:44 PM

Speaking of holy deadlock (wedlock) me and my wife decided to divorce in order to quit paying the marriage penalty tax (in the USA). We now both file as singles at a much higher rate and pay far less income tax. Did I hear that Dubya was promoting marriage to stabilize the American family...or this just another one of his illusions.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 04:06 PM

I don't know that the terms have any usefulness or utility. Bastard has taken a new meaning in the language, and indeed there are a few of them around--many of them elected. I saw two dogs get "wedlocked"--more like gridlocked. One of them was a female shepherd that 'belonged' to me (I can hear the remarks from here--knock it off, SVP), and the male that had got himself into the situation seemed to want to get himself out of it (both the situation and the female). Buckets of water didn't work. As to illegitimacy, I don't really know what that means. I can't perceive ANY child as illegitimate.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: kendall
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 04:56 PM

It's hard to imagine a time when children who were born "On the wrong side of the blanket" were branded with such a vicious name.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Tinker
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 05:03 PM

Perhaps when you look back to the time when women and children only had legal standing in relationship to the man who was responsible for them, could it's power have disappeared as we acknowledged individuals with rights of their own??? Just a thought. Not that we're all that good at protecting those rights even now....

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 05:43 PM

Sorry chaps, but at least up until 8 years ago; legally, unless the parents have acknowledged such in a will or other recognised document, an illegitimate child is still an illegitimate child and can be entitled to nothing if there is a legitimate child to claim. If there is no will but the illegitimate child has been 'recognised' by both parents, then the child can claim, but only if there is no legitimate heir.

A bastard is a bastard whatever the law says.... it's up to you to interpret it as you will.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: artbrooks
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 06:00 PM

I read somewhere recently that most of the French don't get "legally" married anymore...of course, I would never be so crass as to say that this just proves that most Frenchmen are bastards...

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Joybell
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 06:15 PM

Just homed in on this thread. I'm a bastard. Born one that is, but I was a love-child as well and called their "Joy"! The Joy of all three parents. I was taught to believe I was especially blessed. Not all bastards are as lucky of course, but the term, for me, has always meant Special and Thrice-loved. Joy The Belle

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 06:25 PM

In some parts of this USA (mostly rural/small town), there ARE still those who take the issue seriously. I just don't hang out with that crowd.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: KateG
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 06:29 PM

Brucie

I pity your female shepherd and her paramour. The "tie" as it is known is a normal part of canine copulation and can last up to an hour if not interrupted by well meaning and ignorant humans. How would you like a bucket of water dumped on you during the best part of sex. In addition, premature and forceful breaking of the tie can injure one or the other or both dogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: GUEST,d-i-v-o-r-c-e-d
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 06:58 PM

It is a political shame. My wife and I got divorced after 28 years in order to avoid the so called marriage penalty. We are now happily living in sinful bliss and have a few extra bucks each year. Wise up Bush Junior. And speaking of E-Raq...wonder if Bushie would put his two trashy daughters (and Jeb's daughter) in harms way...just thinking...

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 07:10 PM

No illegitimate kids, just Presidents....

Seriously, my father was born just six months after my grandparents married -- a healthy, bouncing baby born three months early but who looked like a full-term one. Certainly my grandparents would never, ever...why, Queen Victoria was barely cold in her grave back in 1917!

When my wife called to tell my mother we'd decided to get married, my mother's response was to yell to my sister, "Hey, Martha! Pat's pregnant!"

Mom also used to say "The first can come anytime, the rest take nine months." Just her way of saying that children should be loved whenever they come along -- and while she prefered that mom&dad be married, she never held it against the children. (She also used to say that a child can only be completely sure of who their mother is.)

Illegitimacy was a legal construct, not a human (or humane) one.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 07:24 PM

Dear KateG,

I would ask you: "Warm or cold water?"

Yeah, I didn't know that at the time. Following parents' directions. However, because there was no issue, there was no issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Hrothgar
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 09:57 PM

I'm not sure if I know anybody who is illegitimate, apart from GWB.

I do, however, know quite a few bastards.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 10:38 PM

With dna technology it seems like it would be fairly easy to establish parentage these days. I may be mistaken but I believe that in the US a child born outside the marriage bonds is just as much an heir to an estate as the one born in the confines.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Nov 03 - 10:57 PM

California law has long denied the concept of bastardy. The state won't let a parent off the hook for any reason.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Sorcha
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 12:16 AM

I know a lot of bastards, but my grandson is not one of them...of course, both parents acknoleged he is theirs....and,since he is our only grandchild just now, he is in line to get our 'stuff'...subject to change if we have another....

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: GUEST,pdc
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 01:25 AM

Illegitimacy was a case of putting a social matrix in a position of more importance than human fundamentals. It was an evil concept, probably economic-based, if you think about it. (I'm very tired -- if this post doesn't make sense tomorrow when I read it, I will rewrite.)

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 09:44 AM

speaking of the Good Old Days.

My great-grandmother was born in 1860 & had ILLIGETIMATE (or however it's spelled) written across her birth certificate, written in the section normally reserved for parent's wedding details. I've only seen a few of her younger siblings certificates but they did not include that word - their parents lied & invented a wedding date!

Her parents did not marry till she was about 25 - both had spouses & had to wait till they were dead. There was no divorce in those days for poor farmers.

The birth certificate didn't worry me, & I knew it wouldn't worry my dad, but I wasn't sure how to tell his cousin, a Catholic spinster of 70. Fortunately Clarice was not a steroetypical old maid & wasn't fazed. Previous generations might have had a different reaction.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 10:22 AM

I dunno, Sandra. It's been my experience that unless you were with a bible-thumping, hellfire'n'damnation sect poor folks were pretty easy about illegitimacy. Maybe it's because they didn't have many **material** things to pass on as a legacy.

The concept of bastardy IS a legal one, one founded in a patriarchial and patrilinear society. Matriarchal and/or matrilinear societies have other problems, of course, but at least everyone is sure who is descended from who.

The rise of the middle class, especially in the 18th and 19th Centuries, also figures into the equation, because they also wanted to protect their property.

I met a old fellow on a train once, years back, and in the course of conversing we discovered that we were from the same hometown. Then he admitted to being "a real-life bastard" and was a bit surprised when I wasn't shocked. So we talked about his life a bit, turned out we were something like fifth or sixth cousins. A pleasant conversation and it helped the miles roll away.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 12:16 PM

Lets get a few facts - like 620 of em in the UK Parliament. B'stards the lot of em.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 02:03 PM

I have lost count of the number of times I have been asked if I am divorced or a widow, then gotten the shocked look and the "But you have a son!" when I say I have never married. Nobody's business but mine and my son. But to answer your question, yes, there are some for whom illegitimacy is an issue.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 02:14 PM

Mr Red,

You ain't got 'em all. We have some in the House of Commons in Ottawa. Too many to name here.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 03:25 PM

Ah but we also have a House of Lords - and the irony is that they have a pedegree as long as your arm but they are still not sure who there father is in a lot of cases.

There is a minor point (sorry to be so sensible) in the legal department - the naming of names. If the mother is not married doesn't the child take the mothers surname not the the father's. Well UK law anyway. And isn't there an issue with inheritance in the case of there not being a will?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Joybell
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 05:54 PM

Nobody asked my father about his marital status in connection with my mother - he was married but not to her. He just filled out the form and my birth certificate just doesn't mention the fact that I was born out of wedlock. It was 1945, in Melbourne Australia, and things were rather casual. I felt sorry for the poor kids around me with only one mother.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 06:48 PM

A child registered now can be given either surname - but only if the father is present at the registrars office when the child is registered - this is to ensure that the father is willing to accept responsibility for the child that will bear his name. If the father is not present, the child will not be given the fathers surname.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 03 - 10:06 PM

No one puts much stock in this outdated idea any more.

Three teen age boys walked into Helen's Restayrant after school, and sitting in their favorite booth was Effie Dunbar (82 years old).
Instead of taking another booth, they just sat with her, one beside, the other two across. She kept on eating. Finally, in an attempt to shock her into moving, one said "I just found out that my parents had to get married." No reaction.
Another said, "Hell, my parents didn't get married until after I was born." No reaction from Effie.
Finally, the third said, "That's nothing, my parents never did get married."
Effie looked up and said "One of you bastards please pass the salt"?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 03:55 AM

No one puts much stock in this outdated idea any more. I think you are right socially, but as a couple of people have said, 'illegitimacy' is actually a legal construct, and I would not be in the least surprised to find that the law has not caught up with the social in significant ways. It might be taking too much of a risk to assume everything will work itself properly without a will by the parents, for example, especially if they have some legitimate and some illegitimate children.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 04:42 AM

If a couple have both legitimate and illegitimate children, or indeed, step children who have not been formally adopted then a will is imperative if they want all to inherit equally. The law will not recognise an illegitimate or a step child over a legitimate child. As has been said before, 'the Law is a hass, and the law sir, is a Batchelor!'

This is also shown by the fact that until recently, more women were left intestate (husband died and left no will) than were divorced. A married womans' next of kin is her husband or child. A married mans' next of kin is his mother or father if still alive, his child if any and THEN his wife. If a widow is left intestate, his parents have the legal right to deny her anything he might have left. If there are no children, and the house is in his name only, they can sell it out from under her.

Make a will - it's the best thing in the long run, especially if you are not married in law (In Britain, a wedding celebrated under any rites other than those which have the Bible as their Holy book, are not recognised as legal, and the couple have to have a Registry office ceremony to make it legal), and have children, whether your own, your partners or adopted.


LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 05:43 AM

Thanks for that, Liz.

You would also be wise to consider 'the law' in much wider contexts as well. If you have health insurance and it covers 'your children' - are illegimate children covered? You will probably find they are not, unless explicitly named, because the firm will not want to cover the result of that mad fling you had ten years back. What about travel insurance? And so on, and so forth ...

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 09:38 AM

Is there any such thing as legitimacy Anymore?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 09:53 AM

I'm still trying to figure out the marriage penalty. I pay less tax as a married person than I did as a single one. Am I not doing it right, or something?

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 01:04 PM

Can't agree on the intestate thing Liz. When my husband died everything automatically went to me (after the tax man and debts to the estate were paid).

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 01:20 PM

The law certainly varies from country to country. I can't imagine a married man's first responsibility (and his family's money) being to his parents.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Noreen
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 01:42 PM

Liz, where do you get this stuff that you propound as being the truth?

What you say above is far from being the case under the laws of England and Wales (of which I assume you were speaking). Whether it used to be the case at some stage I can't say, but it seems unlikely.

As Jane (Mrs Duck) said, if a married man dies intestate, everything goes automatically to the wife, up to a value of £125,000. Over that value, his children and other relatives may have a claim. This may be where Liz got the idea of a widow's house being sold- this could happen (if the house was not held in joint names) to share the assets between children and other relatives. But the widow would NOT be left with nothing.

Liz, I do think you should check your information before you claim to be an authority- one day people might believe you.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: open mike
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 02:04 PM

When we were married i was nearly 8 months pregnant
with our first child. My mother felt it necessry to
crop the wedding pix so only shoulders and above so
as to reveal only the top portions of the pose!!

we were considering patching together a new name
(surname) for the children made from part of the
name of the sire and of the dam as in race horses.

but eventually setteled on their dad's last name as the
kids' surname. I use a hyphenated name maiden-married.

we stayed together for 25 years, so more legitimate than
some relationships, i guess!

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: GUEST,KateG at Work
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 03:53 PM

In New Jersey (USA) in the late 18th and early 19th century, a man's estate went to his legitimate children, but his widow had a dower right to 30% of the property for her use and maintenance during her lifetime. After her death the property reverted to her late husband's children, she could not bequeathe it to anyone else (eg children by a previous or subsequent marriage). And some of the wills I've read from that era are very specific about what the widow's portion would be: certain rooms in the family house, grazing for so many cows, maintenace of a horse and buggy, and in one instance an elderly slave woman. Children born out of wedlock did not seem to have rights to their father's estate unless he made them a specific bequest (which seems to have occurred fairly frequently).

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 08:05 PM

Noreen, having spent some considerable time helping sort out a friends' affairs after the death of her husband, when her mother in law evicted her and sold the house quite legally, I have the info from the horses mouth. When my father died, the solicitors first question was 'are either of his parents still living because they are next of kin?'. When we explained that his mother was dead and he had no legitimate father, he explained everything else.

As for the child thing - my Godchildren were both born without the benefit of a marriage license (since rectified) and I was with them on both occasions of their registration and got the same explainations from the Registrar.

When we had been married a few years, we decided to make wills, and the same was explained to us. If Manitas had died before making his will, the flat, being in his name only, would have reverted to his parents and they could have disposed of it as they saw fit. I would have got his pension, but only because he'd submitted my name to his employer. Had he not done that, it would have gone to his mother, as I had my own income.

It does take a particularly mean sort of person to do that sort of thing, but as I think we all know, there are some very nasty people around masquerading as friends and family.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Nov 03 - 10:18 PM

Interesting thread.

When we married, back in 1973, my wife kept her maiden name as her legal name and it is still her legal name. We don't have children, but other couples with the same name game as we have have had kids, and they are given either a hyphenated surname or the surname of one of the parents (in one case, the parental surnames were alternated). Surnames can also be created. As long as you are consistent, the law in the US doesn't care what you call yourself (well, there ARE limits...). In fact, the laws vary from state to state, or did, with only two state (Hawaii and another) requiring the woman to take the husband's surnmae (and I think that that's changed now).

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 12:44 AM

I know that there are a great many women who like having taken their husband's surname when they got married but the custom seems totally archaic to me. Surely it's a vestige of a time when the woman had no legal rights - or responsibilities-, a time that surely is long past.

As dear Paul said, If a wife does not understand what was said (at church) she is to keep quiet and when they return home her husband will explain it to her.

That is just one end of the spectrum- the attitude persisted until as recently as 30 years or so ago. Yep. I can see commemorating such a time.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 08:27 AM

Dear Liz,

As you may know I am a solicitor. Inheritance is not my speciality but I do know a bit about it. I am currently dealing with the estate of Jacqui, my "wife" of 25 years who was still married to her first husband, if I can put it like that, and we have two mature children by her first husband, and Rachel who is my biological daughter. I am also in the process of sorting the estate of the estranged but not divorced wife of a very old friend of mine. She happened to die intestate. So I have had to look at this somewhat. I speak only of the law of England and Wales.

I do not of course know exactly what your friend's solicitor said but your reportage of it does not I think set out good law. If she had NOT been married to her "husband" I could see some points of similarity between what you say and what I understand, but not complete identity. I do not want to get involved in a row between you and Noreen, so I am not at this moment going to set out chapter and verse, but I would also suggest that the lady you assisted was likely to have had more rights under the ordinary law of inheritance than you seem to say, and also would have had rights under the Inheritance (Provision for Family and Dependants) Act.

I am reasonably sure that the law of inheritance generally treats illegitimate children equally with legitimate ones, although I think there may be a difference affecting inherited titles.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 09:24 AM

To my surprise, my x's dad had a bug up his butt about having, apparently, either been illegitemate or suspected of same, and when his (the dad's) daughter had a kid by herself after getting tired of waiting to find a (worthy, to her) man, for the longest time Pappy wouldn't acknowledge the fact of his grandson, and when we were expecting our own kids (Mario was 8 by then) he would say If there's a boy I'll finally have a grandson and stuff like that. So I'd say it was alive and kicking in rural US as of the prior generation... although we couldn't care less in ours...

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: GUEST,Poppa Gator, cookieless at work
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 11:51 AM

Marriage penalty (in the US):

As I understand it, if both spouses earn approximately the same amount, with both earning "on the books," they pay more income tax filing jointly than they would if single. If the two incomes are significantly different, and/or if one's earnings are from the "underground economy," their net tax liability is lower when filing separately than it would be as two singles.

The underground economy includes not only such patently illegal sources of income as drug dealing, theft, etc., but also some perfectly innocuous occupations customarily persued on a cash basis -- waiting tables for tips, renovation carpentry (as opposed to new construction), musicianship (!) and many forms of self-employment.

Illegitimacy:

I am about to become a first-time grandfather; my daughter and her no-good boyfriend are not married. They are also not capable of supporting themselves, let alone a third human being, and my wife and I will undoubtedly wind up raising and supporting another young family just when we thought we had earned our retirement from such activity. The kids had expressed interest in getting married well before the pregnancy, but were discouraged by everyone (both families, most friends and acquaintances), and without our paying for everything, they could not possibly have married on their own. At the very least, they lacked the nerve and independence to elope -- they wanted to be *given* a wedding.

I realize that the usual scenario is for the young woman to get pregnant to force the issue of marriage, but in this case, knowing my useless common-law son-in-law, *he* is probably the one who poked holes in the condoms, or whatever, to attach himself to Maggie and to our family forever. Whether they marry or not, he'll always be our granddaughter's father.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 12:59 PM

I was born, raised and lived in the UK for the first 30 years of my life. My two daughters from my first marriage (both born in Canada)are entitled to British passports, but my son (also born in Canada)from my second wife is not, because his mum and I were not 'married' when he was born. His birth certificate bears my family name, me as father, etc. I brought this up with the passport folks, first in Vancouver (they couldn't believe it) then in Ottawa (they couldn't believe it) then in Liverpool (they could believe it and said it was one of those things that was grossly unfair and outdated but is difficult to get out of the system because it is dependent on other clauses, blah, blah, blah) They told me I could fix it by one of two means: apply to the British embassy in Ottawa to have him officially 'registered' or marry his mother (I did). They now seem uncertain as to whether I need to adopt my own son to make it legitimate.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 04:28 PM

Okay, Poppa Gator, why don't you stop being mealy-mouthed and tell us what you REALLY think of your son-in-law?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 04:51 PM

Found this which sets out the rules that apply for intestacy.
Rules of intestacy UK
Note it doesn't seem to matter whether children are legitimate.

Subject: RE: BS: Any Such Thing As Illegitimacy Anymore?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 03 - 05:18 PM

Uncle DaveO (and all),

About that common-law son-in-law: I have to figure out a way to get along with him, become some kind of surrogate father, and help him achieve some level of independence and competance -- if only out of self-defense. Hell -- somehow, some way, I have to bring myself to LOVE him. (Maybe once the baby appears -- we know we're all going to love *her* to death, figuratively speaking -- relations will become easier among the rest of the extended family.)

The poor kid has some serious psychological problems, largely due to his own "illegitimacy." His sperm-donor father abandoned his mother before he was born, and his mother's family always treated him, if as a complete paraiah and if not without some level of love and affection, certainly as a special case, even a second-class citizen within the clan. Within the last two years or so, he has identified his father through mutual acquaintances, tracked him down in another city, and even met an aunt (one of his father's sisters), but the father himself still refuses to meet him or even acknowledge his existence. He is still trying to hide from his wife that he "sowed his wild oats" during his brief time away from home in New Orleans!

So, it's very understandable why this young man would become a self-pitying pillhead with such a big chip on his shoulder that he can't hold a job. If he weren't dragging my daughter and my whole family down with him, I would have nothing but sympathy for him. I'm just exasperated that, after thirty years of marriage and making every effort to raise three kids as well as possible, I have to deal with such serious, deep-seated psychological problems.

So, in answer to the original question, yes, there *is* such a thing as illegitimacy, even in this "advanced" age. When an entire extended family is ashamed of their "fallen" sister and her "bastard" offspring, the child can be greatly damaged by his non-legit status.