BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted

Subject: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 02:15 PM

All over the world in that famous attire
We send fumbling statesmen with hopes to require
That ours is the right and the true neverending
With conscience requiting our freedom thats pending

With freedom as catchword their paradox stumbles
From their stealth comes their wealth and a president's bumbles
With one track and no slack he sticks to his gunning
Uncaring for billions so weary of running

And what does he mean when he speaks of our freedom?
For Christian he is, without loving to heed him
Such is his concern, to remove us from choices
And silence now all but the faintest of voices

Enlisting our youth with a team world conniving
To tell us what dim witted fear is reviving
When few are the proud, with the multitudes fretting
Our fighting obscuring the free... to regretting

And the fun that is made of the sky as it's falling
Does bring out our best for the dance they are calling
So speak not of freedom with anger and bombs
For deaf ears are turned into uneasy calms

And how many people... percentages please?
Actually voted for this tyrany's tease...
The rules they're a changin, to 'refined' forms of freedom
Are passing unnoticed by those who should see them...

Can we put a value on democracy? and/or How much was your inflated 'freedom' worth to you... how much will it be worth if it's gone?

Peace, Love, and All the Best! ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 02:23 PM

Fits the tune of the Star-Spangled Banner, I see.

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 02:39 PM

"Can we put a value on democracy?"
I donno... find me an example of democracy and I'll tell you...

But I am inclined to believe that everyone and everything has it's price...

"how much will it be worth if it's gone?"
When did we ever have it?

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 03:11 PM

Good points both CH... thanks for the laughs!

MoH... unintentional... but interesting I suppose...

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 07:33 PM

Neither the US or the UK has or ever was a democracy. The US is a republic, the UK a constitutional monarchy.

But...let's not confuse liberty with democracy. (I'm deliberating avoiding the word "freedom".)

So let's rephrase the question: how much do you value your liberty?

It's a fair question, too.

Enough to bankrupt yourself and your family for it? Enough to leave what you have and move elsewhere, starting over completely, to have it? Enough to die for it?

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 08:05 PM

So how would you differentiate between liberty and freedom?

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: mack/misophist
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 10:53 PM

In short; liberty is social, freedom is lonely.

In the long form; liberty is when a group of people give each other as much slack as circumstances will allow. To be free to do whatever you like, you need to be alone.

I understand this is too short but I refuse to write a book on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 10:57 PM

"Liberty is the period between the overthrow of one tyrant and the reign of another."

"Freedom" has been tossed around so much by politicians and others that it seems to have lost the responsibilities that come with it. Which is why I avoided it.

"Liberty" on the other hand still seems to have connotations of responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: Amos
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 11:08 PM

Liberty is freedom established by reciprocal consent among members of a society...while freedom may be an accident, liberty never is.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 11:40 PM

'American Heritage'...

Synonyms: freedom, liberty, licence.
These nouns refer to the power to act, speak, or think without the imposition of restraint. Freedom is the most general term and preferable when total absence of restraint or lack of restraint in general is meant... Liberty applies especially to individual rights defined by law, and thus suggests absence of specific restrictions. However, freedom is sometimes also used in the narrower sense associated with individual rights. Licence in one sense denotes abuse of freedom; in another it refers to exemption from prevailing rules, granted in special cases.

albeit generalities... but helpful nonetheless...ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: DougR
Date: 23 Nov 03 - 11:42 PM

Kevin: If you think that fits the tune to the Star Spangled Banner, I have to wonder ...have you heard the tune?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 06:57 AM

Hi DougR: The tune fits for me!? I suppose it depends where you put what sylables... but ys, the question is freedom and liberty. We cannot preserve freedom, by giving liberty to the armies of corporate America to rape and pillage the rest of the planit in the guise of secrity to the cowardly cringing masses of Americans who believe that the army is striking out in defence of that which they fear to lose but in fact lose to their own government.
Cheers (good job)
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 08:29 AM

My questions still remain....

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 08:39 AM

News item from Oz:
a large number of social groups, incuding some Cathloic Church ones are getting together (they are also upset that the negotiation is being done in secret!) to try to kill off the proposed Free Trade Agt with USA on basis that it will give up our sovereignity - any change in Aust laws after signing may result in massive lawsuits by US compaies on the grounds that the law change may be viewed as a "restriction of trade"... :-) based on problems experienced by mexico, etc....

Does that count as Fighting Tryanny? :-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 08:41 AM

Just checked with this national anthem site, and it seems to fit pretty well.

An interesting attempt at a distinction between liberty and freedom, the first as social and the second as individual, but I don't really accept it. If we aren't all free none of us are truly free, is how I see it.

There is also a usage of "liberty" in which it more or less means having permission by the authorities to do something, which again tends to be just another way of saying you aren't free.

I prefer the words free and freedom and if they get misused and polluted by demagogues and crooks, that's tough, but it'd be wrong to roll over and surrender the word to them. If we start doing that we won't have any words left to use.

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 08:56 AM

My problem with the word "freedom" is not that I don't like it, but that today it seems to carry connotations associated with advertising. Like "Operation Iraqi Freedom." Or "Feel the Freedom!" Or "Freedom of the Road!" But maybe this is just an American thing.

I do reject the synonym of "license." THAT implies, at least to me, irresponsibility.

"Liberty", to me, speaks of political and social freedom with an implication of responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 09:15 AM

So you stop using the word "love" as well?

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 11:15 AM

Well, I wish that they'd use "lust" when they meant lust....

Language is tricky, as we know. Not only are there the dictionary definitions, but the psychological ones, the cultural ones, and others as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Taking Tyrany for Granted
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 Nov 03 - 12:19 PM

Not to be wishy-washy about it, but the concepts represented by some of these words are a bit fuzzy around the edges and tend to bleed into each other. Thomas the Rhymer's quotation from the American Heritage Dictionary seems to give some reasonable distinctions. The Merriam-Webster Dictionary is almost identical.

The melody of the Star-Spangled Banner accommodates quite a number of sets of words--including (mildly squeezing a couple of syllables in one line) Wildwood Flower. Try it. Feel free.   

Don Firth