BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?

Subject: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 02:34 AM

This looks like it's a year old case but I just heard about it tonight. This German man,Meiwes found someone on the internet who agreed to be eaten. They enjoyed a meal of penis together, then Meiwes killed him and ate more, buried the rest of the body. He is now on trial for murder.
Full Story
Opinions? Murder or Suicide?
From what I read the man was completly willing, had a will and was ready to die. I believe it was suicide. They even video taped the meal. Man there are some strange ones out there.
Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 05:49 AM

People who want their penis eaten don't normally expect to have it cut off first!!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Cluin
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 09:07 AM

Every time I think people can't get any sicker, I find I'm wrong.

The fact that he actually had over 400 applicants for his aberrant fantasy leaves me completely gobsmacked.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 01:25 PM

As they say: there's no accounting for taste! ;~)

D.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 01:38 PM

Yeah, I read about it a couple of days ago. Whether or not the victim was willing to be killed, if another killed him it's murder. To commit suicide YOU personally have to jump from the building, drink the poisoned cup, pull the trigger, step off the chair or whatever.

There are also those in the US (and I assume elsewhere)who ask to be castrated, voluntarily, and they find people to do it. This, too, is a crime.

I will restrain myself and not make the sick puns and jokes that come to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: MudGuard
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 04:42 PM

IF the victim really wanted to be killed, it was neither murder nor suicide but "killing on demand" (German: "Tötung auf Verlangen") which still is a crime but is afaik not punished as hard as a murder.

The problem might be to find out whether the victim really demanded to be killed - you can't ask him...

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 04:52 PM

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 05:00 PM

But in all seriousness: regardless of whether a person has a theoretical "right" to "demand" to be killed, the person who in fact *does* the killing is still outside the bounds of the law...even the euthanising (sp?) of terminally ill patients who wish to be freed of terrible suffering is looked at askance. The permitted existence of a (seemingly) symbiotic relationship between someone who wants to be killed and someone who wants to kill remains outside the boundaries of what most people consider civilised, decent, ethical, whatever-term-you-like-to-give-the-thing-that-separates-us-from-beasts behaviour.

While we're obviously talking about a relationship between two deeply disturbed people, the fact remains that we cannot be *allowed* to kill (and I'm not even going into the cannibalism here!)
each other, and neither do I believe that we have a "right" to "demand" that another person take on the responsibility of cutting us off.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 03 - 07:18 PM

a strange form of suicide! If someone truly wishes to die, it is not easy to stop them, but I think that those who 'help' in such bizarre ways might be best 'separated from society', lest they prey on those who are merely borderline suicidal by contributing embroidered fantasies which push the demented over the edge...

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 01:02 AM

If every one in the world killed one person and ate them it would go a long way to solving the problems of food supply and over-population.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 01:45 AM

Garry Gillard, would you perfer to be the eater or the eatee?

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Cluin
Date: 07 Dec 03 - 08:32 AM

Kinda like cutting your head off to cure a headache, innit?

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 07:15 AM

Just today the video is shown at the trial, public excluded; it is an important exhibit for the decision wether defendant will be tried for murder or manslaughter on demand.
Cannibalism is no crime due to the German Criminal Code; defendant could be tried for disturbing the rest of the dead, said Attorney of the State.
Defendant served for 12 years in the German army; last rank: staff sergeant (but his crime is most untypical for army lore).

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 07:33 AM

Suggestions for recipes, suitable sauces, and accompanying wines, anyone ?   I suppose the penis could have been a bit like Chicken Kiev with a sauce already inside it . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: GUEST,Lunduner
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 08:54 AM

I think there is a place for it on the festive table, preferably between the bread sauce and the roast parsnips.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 02:19 PM

Humans are definately trafe.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Dec 03 - 04:16 PM

Refresh- just to get it away from its neighbor...

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 05:33 AM

So is bacon, but I still eat it.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 02:36 PM

Cannabalism in itself could be construed as it's own form of suicide. I watched a documentary about a cannibal tribe in Africa and they were getting sick and dying as a result of an enzyme in the human meat. The tribe was becoming extinct and then when they realized what was making them sick they quit eating people and started to thrive again.
While I was reading about this case, I read there is a lot of cannibalism going on in Germany.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Dec 03 - 03:27 PM

That is just REALLY strange.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Glen Reid
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 11:22 AM

The fact that it was the penis that was served up and comsumed by both the cutter and the cuttee,suggests that there is some kind of a sexual motive or thrill at the root of all this.
What is the thinking of the shrinks, or even people who have an amatuer psychological opinion?
Glen

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 12:15 PM

Well most blokes would like to be able to "eat" their own p***k - but usually while it's still attached !

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Rapparee
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 12:19 PM

There was obviously an erotic element in this, possibly the ultimate in sadism and masochism. The psychological problems of both parties obviously are both deep and dark, very dark indeed. And while cannibalism has occured before in Germany and elsewhere, it wasn't voluntary on the part of the eaten. I suppose that the defendant could be correct in that there are other people waiting to be killed and eaten; there certainly are people who volunteer to the castrated by acquaintances (I know of another case in, I believe, Huntington, Indiana).

Since the "surgery" was done without anesthestia....

It's not fashionable, or PC, but like some other practices I personally find this sort of thing to be depraved. You are entitled to your opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: GUEST,Desdemona
Date: 10 Dec 03 - 04:04 PM

Or, as George Carlin so memorably put it: "If I could do *that*, I'd never leave the house"!

D.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 06:04 PM

More strange tidings from the court room:

The cannibal had contacts to 29 persons of cannibal inclinations, and to 204 persons offering themselves for victims (being maimed, killed, and eaten.)
He worked off his aggressions in former times by piercing and grilling Barbie dolls.
Rum, very rum indeed.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 05:01 AM

The verdict: Eight and a half years

More than killing on demand and less than murder. Homicide it was the judge ruled. Both sides are expected to appeal. I'm sure this will go up to the highest court.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 11:47 AM

I hope that this guy is watched very closely when he is released. I also hope that he gets some much needed psych. help. This incident is bizzare beyond words.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: snake19
Date: 30 Jan 04 - 01:46 PM

He has served 1 year out in 5 due to manslaughter.I don't think its bizarre,what's wrong with eating human meat its been going on for years.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 01:42 PM

Wolfgang has given you the first news flash, now let me give the reasons of the sentence as they were reported today by the press. I should have done it sooner, but all the day we hand the electricians in the house, and without currency my PC refused to report to work.

The court didn't follow neither the state attorney (murder, life sentence) nor the defence (killing on demand, five years), but decided on second-degree murder.

An important question was the criminal liability of defendant, which was judged as unrestricted. So an assignment into a mental hospital was ruled out. (Note: such an assignment by a criminal court is unlimited in most cases. Assigned persons are only let out when they are no more endangering the public; this can mean assignment for life.)
So the "Rotenburg cannibal" could be released after five years and a half for good conduct.

Court further found that defendant, living with and later nursing his mother, had no male attachment figure in his childhood; his then developped fantasies of slaughter stamped his sexual urges in his puberty.
Since defendant admitted during the trial that he masturbated when watching the video tape he made from killing his victim the state attorney sees one of the prerequisites of murder - killing for satisfaction of sexual urge - fulfilled and will lodge an appeal.

Defendant's barrister told the press that defendant has volunteered for pschiatric treatment.

I'm sure that the sentence and its reasons will be published and discussed in the "New Juristic Weekly" in due time; I just can't wait to read it.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 05:44 PM

Just when you think it's safe to go back in the water, huh?

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 11:04 PM

Rustic Rebel - I seem to recall that the cannibals in Africa suffered from the same brain disease as the people who eat squirrels. It may even be the same as mad-cow disease or very similar. Stay away from eating the brains and spinal cords of mammals - a penis might be O.K. but somehow I doubt it.

Its unbelievable how really twisted some people become.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 11:14 PM

Not Africa -- New Guinea. And CJD is also related to BSE, it appears.

I don't think there'd be much of a meal in eating a human penis. Especially if two shared it, and one of them would be getting faint from blood loss.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Mickey191
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 12:40 AM

How was the volunteer killed. Rapaire, how could a man think of dining with his penis newly detached? Maybe a demi tasse of coffee. The whole thing boggles the mind. The survivor says he expects to
write a book while in prison. It will be a best seller no doubt. In Germany cannibalism is legal.

Twinkle-do you have a lot of dinner guests? Include me out. Hope the doorman keeps count of how many go in.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: snake19
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 03:26 AM

Who invited you anyway "Mickey"to my Dinner Parties,You would be the last person on my Guest list.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Gareth
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 06:09 AM

Hmmm ! - But where does this fit in the Atkins diet ???

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 10:20 AM

how could a man think of dining with his penis newly detached? Maybe a demi tasse of coffee. Cock au vin?
In Germany cannibalism is legal. From the law's side this may be correct but: it is so unusual in German culture that nobody thought it necessary to make it illegal. Maybe the Parliament will do it now.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Mickey191
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 01:07 AM

Twinkle Darling, I see my humor is lost on you. Mores the pity. Lighten up!

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: MudGuard
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 06:22 PM

There is a law in Germany which says you are not allowed to disturb the peace of the dead.

Eating dead people is (in my opinion) disturbing the peace opf these same dead pepopöle.

Therefore, even if the löaw does not explicitly mention that cannibalism is illegal, I still consider it illegal.

(sorry for typing so bad, wounded and splinted finger is topoo thick to hit keys)

(temporarily) "MudGuard from Munich8"

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 06:33 PM

Right Rapaire, it was New Guinea (Popua) and a remote highland tribe called Fore. My mistake saying Africa. They named the disease kuru. When I watched the documentary they were blaming it on enzymes but now reading further into it it does appear to be a form of CJD. Where it comes from is still the mystery, although it was mostly the women and children that got it from eating the brains of their dead relatives.
Dianavan- The connection with CJD and squirrels looks like it could be in the cattle feed that they eat but it's a hard call to make since CJD is animal transmitted.

But what has this got to do with eating penis?...

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 03:51 AM

Hello, MudGuard - I'm so sorry to hear of your splinted finger. I hope you will be well soon. Best wishes.

The construction of trying cannibalism as disturbing the rest of the dead was brought in by the state attorney (see my post of Dec., 8), but in the reason of the sentence I didn't find any mention so far in the press.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: MudGuard
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 04:18 AM

Sorry, Wilfried, missed that bit...

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Walking Eagle
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 06:42 PM

Well, this is the 'Cat for you. On one thread above the line, we are all rejoicing in Kendalls' recovery from heart surgery. On this one---well---. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know I contributed.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 05:11 AM

The appeal is still pending, but you'll like to read about this detail:

Meiwes has sold yesterday (for a not named sum) the film rights of his life and his crime. Perhaps, if you ever plan to do something similar, you first should contact his agent to make sure you are not violating Meiwes' copyright for this particular type of killing. For the music angle, the company now holding the rights is the same holding the German rights for the group 'No Angles'.

This case has led the German parliament to start considering passing a law making sure that all profits from films, books etc that would go to the perpetrators of crimes should be taken from them and given to victims organisations.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 05:13 AM

This subject is truly appalling, and has no place on a supposed Music site. Please Delete asap.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 02:33 PM

The link at the beginning of the thread doesn't go to an article any more. This certainly appears to be a grisley story. I opened the thread to see if it matched up to the title. Apparently it does. That's enough for me!

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 06:23 AM

The appeal is retried since yesterday before the Federal Supreme Court.
The Federal Attorneys are pleading for Murder (life sentence).
The defendant's barristers are pleading for killing on demand (five years max., considerable less than the original 8 years and a half).
The sentence is awaited on April 22nd.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 11:03 AM

Today the sentence against the cannibal was overruled by the Federal Supreme court and the trial relegated back to the Hessian Land Court.

The Supreme Court had heavy doubts that not all criteria of murder had been scrutinized by the subordinate court, esp. the basic motives, e.g. sexual satisfaction, and preparation of other offenses.

The cannibal's appeal for a sentence for killing on demand was rejected.

So a life sentence seems likely.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: The Curator
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 04:50 PM

I note people are saying this has no place on this site,I agree.Which, the thread or Wolfgang ? I know where my vote would go.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 12 Jan 06 - 03:20 AM

Today the District Court of Frankfurt starts to retry the the trial v. Armin Meiwes.
Defendant was verdicted to 8 years and a half for manslaughter by the District Court of Kassel.
The Federal Court in Karlsruhe had rescinded the verdict last year because the District Court had neglected several criteria of murder.

Subject: RE: BS: German cannibal-Murder or Suicide?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 10 May 06 - 07:13 AM

Yesterday A. Meiwes, the "Rotenburg cannibal", got his life sentence for murder. Since the court did not decide for a special seriousness of crime he could be released after not less than fifteen years.
Reuters