Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)

Subject: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 09:22 PM

Thought this might be of interest to some, maybe/maybe not. Scary none the less. How many of the 14 characteristics listed below could we identify with today here in the US?

Copied from http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/britt_23_2.htm Could someone add a blue clicky here, thanks.

Barry


"Fascism Anyone?"

Laurence W. Britt


The following article is from Free Inquiry magazine, Volume 23, Number 2.


Free Inquiry readers may pause to read the "Affirmations of Humanism: A Statement of Principles" on the inside cover of the magazine. To a secular humanist, these principles seem so logical, so right, so crucial. Yet, there is one archetypal political philosophy that is anathema to almost all of these principles. It is fascism. And fascism's principles are wafting in the air today, surreptitiously masquerading as something else, challenging everything we stand for. The cliché that people and nations learn from history is not only overused, but also overestimated; often we fail to learn from history, or draw the wrong conclusions. Sadly, historical amnesia is the norm.


We are two-and-a-half generations removed from the horrors of Nazi Germany, although constant reminders jog the consciousness. German and Italian fascism form the historical models that define this twisted political worldview. Although they no longer exist, this worldview and the characteristics of these models have been imitated by protofascist1 regimes at various times in the twentieth century. Both the original German and Italian models and the later protofascist regimes show remarkably similar characteristics. Although many scholars question any direct connection among these regimes, few can dispute their visual similarities.


Beyond the visual, even a cursory study of these fascist and protofascist regimes reveals the absolutely striking convergence of their modus operandi. This, of course, is not a revelation to the informed political observer, but it is sometimes useful in the interests of perspective to restate obvious facts and in so doing shed needed light on current circumstances.


For the purpose of this perspective, I will consider the following regimes: Nazi Germany, Fascist Italy, Franco's Spain, Salazar's Portugal, Papadopoulos's Greece, Pinochet's Chile, and Suharto's Indonesia. To be sure, they constitute a mixed bag of national identities, cultures, developmental levels, and history. But they all followed the fascist or protofascist model in obtaining, expanding, and maintaining power. Further, all these regimes have been overthrown, so a more or less complete picture of their basic characteristics and abuses is possible.


Analysis of these seven regimes reveals fourteen common threads that link them in recognizable patterns of national behavior and abuse of power. These basic characteristics are more prevalent and intense in some regimes than in others, but they all share at least some level of similarity.


1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. From the prominent displays of flags and bunting to the ubiquitous lapel pins, the fervor to show patriotic nationalism, both on the part of the regime itself and of citizens caught up in its frenzy, was always obvious. Catchy slogans, pride in the military, and demands for unity were common themes in expressing this nationalism. It was usually coupled with a suspicion of things foreign that often bordered on xenophobia.


2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. The regimes themselves viewed human rights as of little value and a hindrance to realizing the objectives of the ruling elite. Through clever use of propaganda, the population was brought to accept these human rights abuses by marginalizing, even demonizing, those being targeted. When abuse was egregious, the tactic was to use secrecy, denial, and disinformation.


3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people's attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions. The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite "spontaneous" acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and "terrorists." Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.


4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Ruling elites always identified closely with the military and the industrial infrastructure that supported it. A disproportionate share of national resources was allocated to the military, even when domestic needs were acute. The military was seen as an expression of nationalism, and was used whenever possible to assert national goals, intimidate other nations, and increase the power and prestige of the ruling elite.


5. Rampant sexism. Beyond the simple fact that the political elite and the national culture were male-dominated, these regimes inevitably viewed women as second-class citizens. They were adamantly anti-abortion and also homophobic. These attitudes were usually codified in Draconian laws that enjoyed strong support by the orthodox religion of the country, thus lending the regime cover for its abuses.


6. A controlled mass media. Under some of the regimes, the mass media were under strict direct control and could be relied upon never to stray from the party line. Other regimes exercised more subtle power to ensure media orthodoxy. Methods included the control of licensing and access to resources, economic pressure, appeals to patriotism, and implied threats. The leaders of the mass media were often politically compatible with the power elite. The result was usually success in keeping the general public unaware of the regimes' excesses.


7. Obsession with national security. Inevitably, a national security apparatus was under direct control of the ruling elite. It was usually an instrument of oppression, operating in secret and beyond any constraints. Its actions were justified under the rubric of protecting "national security," and questioning its activities was portrayed as unpatriotic or even treasonous.


8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Unlike communist regimes, the fascist and protofascist regimes were never proclaimed as godless by their opponents. In fact, most of the regimes attached themselves to the predominant religion of the country and chose to portray themselves as militant defenders of that religion. The fact that the ruling elite's behavior was incompatible with the precepts of the religion was generally swept under the rug. Propaganda kept up the illusion that the ruling elites were defenders of the faith and opponents of the "godless." A perception was manufactured that opposing the power elite was tantamount to an attack on religion.


9. Power of corporations protected. Although the personal life of ordinary citizens was under strict control, the ability of large corporations to operate in relative freedom was not compromised. The ruling elite saw the corporate structure as a way to not only ensure military production (in developed states), but also as an additional means of social control. Members of the economic elite were often pampered by the political elite to ensure a continued mutuality of interests, especially in the repression of "have-not" citizens.


10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Since organized labor was seen as the one power center that could challenge the political hegemony of the ruling elite and its corporate allies, it was inevitably crushed or made powerless. The poor formed an underclass, viewed with suspicion or outright contempt. Under some regimes, being poor was considered akin to a vice.


11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals and the inherent freedom of ideas and expression associated with them were anathema to these regimes. Intellectual and academic freedom were considered subversive to national security and the patriotic ideal. Universities were tightly controlled; politically unreliable faculty harassed or eliminated. Unorthodox ideas or expressions of dissent were strongly attacked, silenced, or crushed. To these regimes, art and literature should serve the national interest or they had no right to exist.


12. Obsession with crime and punishment. Most of these regimes maintained Draconian systems of criminal justice with huge prison populations. The police were often glorified and had almost unchecked power, leading to rampant abuse. "Normal" and political crime were often merged into trumped-up criminal charges and sometimes used against political opponents of the regime. Fear, and hatred, of criminals or "traitors" was often promoted among the population as an excuse for more police power.


13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Those in business circles and close to the power elite often used their position to enrich themselves. This corruption worked both ways; the power elite would receive financial gifts and property from the economic elite, who in turn would gain the benefit of government favoritism. Members of the power elite were in a position to obtain vast wealth from other sources as well: for example, by stealing national resources. With the national security apparatus under control and the media muzzled, this corruption was largely unconstrained and not well understood by the general population.


14. Fraudulent elections. Elections in the form of plebiscites or public opinion polls were usually bogus. When actual elections with candidates were held, they would usually be perverted by the power elite to get the desired result. Common methods included maintaining control of the election machinery, intimidating and disenfranchising opposition voters, destroying or disallowing legal votes, and, as a last resort, turning to a judiciary beholden to the power elite.


Does any of this ring alarm bells? Of course not. After all, this is America, officially a democracy with the rule of law, a constitution, a free press, honest elections, and a well-informed public constantly being put on guard against evils. Historical comparisons like these are just exercises in verbal gymnastics. Maybe, maybe not.


Note


1. Defined as a "political movement or regime tending toward or imitating Fascism"—Webster's Unabridged Dictionary.



Laurence Britt's novel, June, 2004, depicts a future America dominated by right-wing extremists.


Barry

---

Note:
For some unknown reason, this thread was turned into a forum to discuss problems at Mudcat. The serious discussion of Fascism was moved to another thread (click). Feel free to voice any complaints about Mudcat below, but please leave the other thread alone unless you want to talk about the topic at hand.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 09:31 PM

Here you go, Barry:

Secular Humanism

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 09:33 PM

Thanks Carol

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 10:02 PM

Precisely, Barry. I have seen the obvious movement toward fascism growing stronger and stronger in the USA ever since I first lived there in the 1960's, and it is stronger now than it has ever been. It is most vigorously supported by the neoconservative movement, allied with major corporate players and the military-industrial complex. All the symptoms you mention above are typical of the phenomenon and they have been happening at a growing pace, specially since 911, which was the American "burning of the Reichstag" excuse (whoever actually did it...) for ramping up domestic oppression and overseas aggression.

The USA also has 2 official political parties who are effectively BOTH pursuing a very similar set of objectives, while pretending publicly to be different from one another. This is a handy way of giving common people the false impression that they still live in a working democracy, when in fact they really do not.

Both of the US parties would be considered anything but "liberal" in most other parts of the developed world. One (Dems) is a wolf in sheep's clothing, the other (Reps) is a wolf in wolf's clothing...even with an important official named Wolfowitz. Perfect.

God save America...from itself. And God protect the rest of the world from America when its teeth are bared.

- LH

Subject: Lyr Add: THE VICAR OF BRAY
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 10:03 PM

THE VICAR OF BRAY

In good King Charles' golden days, when loyalty no harm meant,
A zealous high churchman was I, and so I gained preferment.
To teach my flock, I never missed
Kings are by God appointed
And damned be he who dare resist or touch the Lord's annointed.

cho: And this be law, I shall maintain
Until my dying day, sir
That whatsoever king may reign,
Still I'll be the Vicar of Bray, sir.

When royal James usurped the throne, and popery came in fashion,
The penal laws I hooted down, and read the Declaration.
The Church of Rome, I found, did fit
Full well my constitution
And I had been a Jesuit, but for the Revolution.

cho:

When William was our King declared, to ease the nation's grievance,
With this new wind about I steered, and swore to him allegiance.
Old principles I did revoke
Set conscience at a distance,
Passive obedience was a joke, a jest was non-resistance.

cho:

When Royal Anne became our queen, the Church of England's glory,
Another face of things was seen, and I became a Tory.
Occasional conformists base
I blamed their moderation;
And thought the Church in danger was from such prevarication.

cho:

When George in pudding time came o'er, and moderate men looked big, sir
My principles I changed once more, and I became a Whig, sir.
And thus preferment I procured
From our new Faith's Defender,
And almost every day abjured the Pope and the Pretender.

cho:

The illustrious house of Hanover and Protestant succession
To these I do allegiance swear --- while they can hold possession.
For in my faith and loyalty
I never more will falter,
And George my lawful king shall be --- until the times do alter.

cho:^o

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 10:04 PM

There are none so blind that WILL not see. It seems there must be some kind of survival mechanism in human nature that, by and large, refuses to allow its mind to be changed.

Even in Nazi Germany, there are many stories of people who refused to believe that the government was that bad- sometimes until it was too late to flee.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 10:37 PM

Ebbie - God, yes. They were in the majority, I believe, and as I've said on other threads the Germans are not a stupid nation. Far from it. It can happen anywhere, and it happens easily when you have a controlled media and a perceived exterior threat to get people to support "temporary emergency measures".

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: LadyJean
Date: 17 Jan 04 - 11:44 PM

The lovely thing about Americans is that they live to break rules. I was crossing the Homestead High Level bridge today, where the speed limit is clearly posted as 25mph. I was doing 35, and everyone was passing me. We fudge our taxes. We weasel around rules and regulations and pat ourselves on the back because we managed to outwit a parking meter, or sneak something past customs.
Tell Americans that they can't speak their minds anymore, and they'll scream their opinions to the four winds. Take away our right to vote, and people who couldn't be bothered to go to the polls before will howl bloody murder.
This is my hope for the nation.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:07 AM

Keep them fingers crossed that the enemy is stupid enough to be obvious, Lady Jena!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:16 AM

Tell Americans that they can't speak their minds anymore, and they'll scream their opinions to the four winds.

Yes, but I've noticed that we, as a nation, often don't bother to actually form our own opinions, but rather, we let our media (our "refernece group" as sociologists would call them) form them for us. And then we shout them to the four winds.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 03:27 AM

Reading through the list I canot help but think that many of them apply also to the current model of the Mudcat forum. I certainly think that 'WE' of the thread title - is all of us - wherever we live.

This is not an attempt to 'have a go' or to link - what most of us would accept as serious political issues - with the activities and mindsets individuals here and it is not really helpful to call anyone facist or indeed to call them any name at all.

Even in Nazi Germany, there are many stories of people who refused to believe that the government was that bad- sometimes until it was too late to flee.

The lesson that seems painfully slow for us to learn is that folk that turn out to be facist monsters like Saddam - are not born wearing a black-shirt with a label on their forehead. We allow these people to develop and encourage the systems that they create. We do this again and again - ignoring all the tragic lessons of history.

The answer is to accept that the problem is not confined to states and to the world stage but that these institutions are just scaled-up versions of your work-place, school and yes - even the current model this forum. And that we must all deal with it when we find it - before it becomes too big - and deals with us instead.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 04:53 AM

Roger,

Sounds like having a go to me.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 06:04 AM

Amos

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. The most significant common thread among these regimes was the use of scapegoating as a means to divert the people's attention from other problems, to shift blame for failures, and to channel frustration in controlled directions.

The methods of choice—relentless propaganda and disinformation—were usually effective. Often the regimes would incite "spontaneous" acts against the target scapegoats, usually communists, socialists, liberals, Jews, ethnic and racial minorities, traditional national enemies, members of other religions, secularists, homosexuals, and "terrorists." Active opponents of these regimes were inevitably labeled as terrorists and dealt with accordingly.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 07:42 AM

hi Shambles

I enjoy your poetry.. but think about this...

One of the ways authoritarian figures can scapegoat a particular group is by getting the general population to identify as victims, and by painting a particular minority group as their persecutors.

Thus, the majority of the people feel justified in getting stuck into the minority.

people feel a certain power in making accusations - by placing themselves in a victim role, they can feel justified in persuing their perceived persecutors,(the minority group) quite relentlessly, and in feeling virtuous about it.

it is worth considering whether this becomes an emotional habit, that can be satisfied by attacking "soft targets" eg smaller communities that a person may be a part of. It is much easier to attack a soft target that allows you to speak, and doesn't punish you (as a fascist govt would) than to challenge a genuine enemy of freedom.

i think mudcat can be an easy soft target. it's an open forum, lots of people read it, and you can be political in a sense by challenging its structure.

as i see it the only power people have here is in their ability to influence through their own words and argument. any perception of there being an "in group" is stretched in such an open forum.

i think it would be more effective to challenge a political hierarchy that has power, such as a government, than to spend time arguing against a soft target like mudcat.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 08:58 AM

i think it would be more effective to challenge a political hierarchy that has power, such as a government, than to spend time arguing against a soft target like mudcat.

We will leave for a moment things like if this now an 'open forum', a 'soft target' and your perception of an 'in group' or if I am in fact arguing against anything. For as I tried to say I am not 'having a go' at individuals here so there is little point in rushing to defend anyone, to judge or to stage a counter-attack. Which is the usual knee-jerk reaction to any criticism and is - I feel - a tactic that prevents any real improvement of to our forum. No matter what your perception - I trust that you would agree that there will always be room for improvement?

My point is simply that in order to prevent the hierarchy from ever becoming all-powerful - we MUST always challenge any abuse of any power, where and when we find it - while we still can.

We certainly must NEVER play with or use, excuse or defend the methods and tactics of the facist regime and indulge ourselves in rightous and judgemental witchhunts. Or think that temporary adoption of these methods is possible - as history tells us that this is a one-way-street.

I take your point about 'playing the victim' and I have also been accused of setting myself up as a martyr. I would argue that victims and martyrs do not create themselves but are created by the way certain individuals are treated. I can see the attraction (for the power concerned) of the idea that victims bring misfortune on themselves and deserve their fate - but I think it is rather dangerous to encourage this concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 09:03 AM

..fairy nuff!

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 10:31 AM

So the question in my mind right now is - are we going to make this thread entirely a discussion about the Mudcat, or are we going to resume talkng about Fascism in the 3D world?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:12 PM

I can appreciate you not wanting this to turn into yet another Mudcat member/guest rant space, CarolC and Freda, but Shambles does make a valid point.

Protofascism can't occur in a vacuum. In countries where protofascism becomes the social, economic, and political order of the day, it takes hold because the citizenry allows it to take hold. The masterful manipulation of human emotions by the ruling elite, through use of media (which in today's era includes forums like this on the internet) aimed at "target market" groups known to have a well developed taste for the blood of those they dislike, are the first to fall in lockstep with the message of scapegoating.

Scapegoating in it's most negative manifestation is at the root of much of the flaming and trolling that occurs here at Mudcat. The scapegoats are, of course, the nebulous 'GUEST'. And while you may not feel there is an in-group at Mudcat, there is most certainly a ruling elite functioning here. That ruling elite has a despotic leader in Max, and layers of his loyal followers, including Pene Azul as his ministers, the Mudcat clones as the henchman, and the loyal members as the gang of 500.

Shambles' point is, for the objective, knowledgeable observer who knows what to look for (ie what protofascist behavior actually looks like when practiced by the citizenry, not it's rulers), well taken. Mudcat is a microcosmic example of the mainstream US protofascist macrocosm.

If the shoe fits...

BTW, I don't believe the US fits the protofascist profile quite as neatly as some have suggested, although it is true that protofascist elements clearly hold power in the current US administration. But I don't think that means you can declare US democratic traditions dead in the water yet. The citizenry of the US has plenty of fight in it, but it isn't a political party partisan fight the citizenry is itching for.

What people seem to want is to take back power from the economic and political elites that have held sway since the Reagan administration, because they are finally seeing the true erosion of quality of life and standard of living the US middle class is being threatened with under the current ruling elite. Which did/does include the Clinton "New Democrats".

However, it doesn't include politically independent minded voters, or the majority of the rank and file of the Democratic Party. But it definitely includes that 9/10 Republicans who support George W. Bush. Which is why this is such an important election cycle for the US. The protofascists definitely need to be beaten back, and it won't happen with the support of mainstream media, who by and large support the current Republican regime, and their 'New Democrat' cronies.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:13 PM

Not so much thread drift as thread hi-jacking, I'd call that.

Perhaps a useful angle would be to identify what characteristics in a society can get in the way of going down the fascist road, and limit how far down that road it gets, and vice versa.
I'm not happy about using the term in an over wide sense. It tends to divert discussion into historical nitpicking. It seems to me that every society has within it the capacity to throw up from time to time an authoritarian populist nationalist regime, and they have certain features in common, though they differ very widely in the amount of harm they actually achieve. Using the term fascist makes it harder to bring in some cases where the term is not helpful, but which do have some of those features.

So, for example, what was it about Nazi Germany that resulted in a regime that so grotesquely outstripped all the other "fascisms", however nightmareish?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:20 PM

I'm not going to suggest that we shouldn't talk about what The Shambles wants to talk about. But I think it's valid to ask if it needs to be the only thing that gets talked about.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:21 PM

Well boys, as far as I am concerned the shoe does not fit, nowhere near. You guys, to beat an analogy to death, are taking an SS marching boot and insisting it fits on Cinderella's foot. You couldn't be further off base if you tried, which I am sure you aren't. I am getting fed up with this stuff.

You don't understand power or what it is used for or how it works. Every exercise of authority that you don't agree with is perceived by you as an abuse of power when it isn't. Surrounding this sorry fact with clouds of Cosmic Rhetoric just ain't gonna change the ground truth.

Good job, Roger -- ya gone and perverted another piece of the 'Cat to your stupid hobby horse.

I suggest you find out what is really behind your caviling and upset, and address that -- perhaps a recent lifetime amongst the Bolsheviks or a painful death in a gulag somewhere? It sure as hell is not what you are addressing. How can I tell? Because nothing changes. When you get tothe right source of a problem, things shift. and you've been whinging on this drum all the time I have been here.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:29 PM

As far as I can see there is only one world and this world includes the Mudcat and does not consist only of the USA........Yet.

Is it being suggested here that Americans are more likely to be fascists then anyone else?

Is it really thought that it would be OK to toy with fascist style practices online - as if this was not also part of the real world?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:31 PM

Agreed CarolC. I don't really see that as what Shambles was actually doing, though. As I understood his posts, it seemed to be he was merely using an example close at hand to illustrate how easily protofascist tendencies can develop among ourselves.

Perhaps he has seen the enemy, by seeing us? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 12:44 PM

Shambles, I really would like to know what you REALLY want. Just what is it that would make you happy? What form do you envision the Mudcat to take, ideally? I hear you sniping and chipping away, and the only impression I come away with is that you would like there to be NO monitoring, no 'censoring', no power structure of any kind; basically you would like Max to just not be there. And yet you must know that if he were not here, Mudcat would cease to exist. Surely that is not what you want? What is it you want?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 01:06 PM

Hi Freda,

I hear you say,

"i think it would be more effective to challenge a political hierarchy that has power, such as a government, than to spend time arguing against a soft target like mudcat."

I think of Mudcat as being a democratic institution. Chomsky says that it's futile to "speak truth to power" to the already established power elite. They know what the "truth" is. I don't think any of us
are challenging Mudcat. We are challenging ideas and having a dialogue. This may be more important than sending a letter to someone who will file it under trash. By comparing ideas, challenging them and evaluating what Mudcatters say, this may have
more use in the long run then shouting down deaf ears.

Amos with all due respect I disagree with your statement,

"You don't understand power or what it is used for or how it works. Every exercise of authority that you don't agree with is perceived by you as an abuse of power when it isn't. Surrounding this sorry fact with clouds of Cosmic Rhetoric just ain't gonna change the ground truth...."

I think we are capable of understanding the nature of power and how and why it is used. "Every excercise of authority" is too general.
There are certain excercises of authority that I think we can all pretty much agree on. Most of us obey the law and if not some may challenge it and accept the consequences. As far as those laws or exercises of authority that we don't agree with, we have to be specific. When it comes to violations of human rights, ignoring
violations by corporate criminals, promoting unjust wars, or other issues presented by this thread, I don't see the vague Cosmic Rhetoric. I think these are pretty specific. Can't imagine what the
"ground truth" is though. Maybe you can elucidate.

You also state,
"I suggest you find out what is really behind your caviling and upset, and address that -- perhaps a recent lifetime amongst the Bolsheviks......."

Really not clear where this is going. It sounds like a reaction.
Maybe that we should be focusing on gulags and Bolshevism rather
than talking about a potential facist takeover of the US? The thread seems to be pretty clear as to what the subject is. Should it be
diverted to something else and if so for what reason?

Jack London wrote an interesting book called the "Iron Heel" which
talks about the rise of what was later to known as facism. It was kind of a prediction that came out of his observations. Are we not
entitled to do the same?

There is a reason that the BS section of Mudcat has been retained.
I think that it's because there are people in the folk music area
that have an astute sense of social issues and recognize the tradition of topical songs which don't arise out of a vacuum. They are a part of what we call the folk process. One thing I've noticed about people who are folkies, they don't think in lock-step like some have claimed. There's a wonderful diversity of opinion here and I
find it refreshing and applaud it.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 01:11 PM

GUEST, I think my question is directed at everyone, not just The Shambles.

To answer one of your questions, The Shambles. Yes, some of us here in the US are thinking that this country is sliding down that slippery slope a bit faster than some other parts of the world.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 01:16 PM

Amos's reaction there demonstrates what I meant when I said that using the word "fascist" gets in the way rather than helping. It turns a discussion into an attack and defence, rather than an exploration.

That list of common features was a thought-provoking one. However it struck me as rather akin to carrying out a similar analysis for say, a dog and a rat. You could come up with a whole set of characteristics which they have in common - but that would not in fact mean that dogs and rats are the same animal.

However what they would indicate was that dogs and rats were both mammals.

Arguing about a word is a waste of time. Looking at the similarities and the differences between different regimes which rely on populist nationalism, and which adopt authoritarian techniques - that could be useful. And in the case of the USA, for example, what are the things about the society that can stop things going over the edge? And what things are there which might increase the risk of something like that happening?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 01:38 PM

Frank:

OK, sure -- this is an open forum. Free speech and all that. And that nicludes stupid hobbyhorses and people making issues where they don't exist.

Look -- a handfull of people, really less than five, have put this place together and kept it going through good and bad times, and in order to do so they organized a bit. Organizing means delegating authority and power to get things done.

So now Shambles, and GUEST, and a slough of others come on over and enjoy the priveleges of this community, reading with interest perhaps what others have to say and posting to their heart's content, and os far, no problem. But suppose they then decide to pee in the soup by caviling and whining ad eternam about offenses they have taken? Sure they have the right to do it. And I have the right to tell them I think it is garbage and that I am sick and tired of this pompous and groundless exalted victimhood.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 01:41 PM

Hey, look folks, it can be great fun being a Fascist....as long as you're winning, that is.

It works like this...

You get to make big, impressive patriotic speeches and cause people to cheer wildly!

You get hailed as the saviour of the nation, and the defender of liberty, freedom, truth, justice, and every other great thing like that.

You get to wear military uniforms and medals, and strut around like a hero, even if you've never been under fire.

As a fascist soldier, you get to visit and bomb the shit out of interesting faraway places, and you get to liberate suffering foreigners who talk funny from their corrupt rulers.

You get to use high tech killing equipment...the best money can buy.

You get to defend your country and all that it stands for.

You experience the adrenalin rush that goes with knowing that all that is good and decent hangs on the speed of your trigger finger.

It's almost as good as starring in a Rambo movie.

The only thing that can cause all of the above to go totally sour is when you get shot...or when your side starts losing! The latter can happen when your side acquires too many enemies, and fascists do tend to acquire an awful lot of enemies as time goes by...for some reason. (?)


As for fascism on Mudcat...(yawn)...well, sure. There is a little power-hungry latent fascist lurking in the heart of everyone, just waiting to burst out and take over, and that happens on Internet forums, in churches, in political parties, and in Boy Scout meetings.

The fascism in the American government worries me far more than the fascism on Mudcat Cafe. I can avoid being affected by Mudcat Cafe simply by logging off and doing something else.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 01:59 PM

IMO, the single greatest threat to freedom in the world today is the collusion of governments, multi-nationals and elites. The New World Order is the ultimate fascism, and it IS happening. Truth is that our ability to communicate can be interrupted at any time: Internet and Phone. Is anyone foolish enough to think that Echelon is just about anti-terrorist activity? Does anyone really think that 10-year-old slaves in SE Asia making shoes for athletes in the 'developed' world isn't being encouraged and orchestrated? Does anyone think that we are not being herded by the media? Sufferin' Jesus. Does anyone think that AIDS isn't being encouraged in Africa? Does anyone think that the game plan isn't about turning this planet into one big happy labour camp? Call me paranoid, folks, but it is so f##cin' big it's almost impossible to see. MJ-12 is a reality. The power elite is pulling strings and the puppets dance.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 02:21 PM

What form do you envision the Mudcat to take, ideally?

Ebbie I really don't want to inflict the whole thing on anyone yet again - but the following thread (on the help forum) is is the beginning of an answer to your question.

Minding our own business

Amos the trouble with a management 'team' of trouble-shooters - in this case one that is formed to combat a perceived outside threat - is that the 'team' has a vested interest in keeping that the idea of that threat alive.

As without any witches to hunt- there is no real function for them. The danger is that when the obvious suspects have been addressed - less obvious targets will then start to get the same treatment and control will be exercised for the sake of control.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 02:21 PM

McGrath, I think the original poster was very careful to define the use of the word you now seem to be suggesting shouldn't be used in this instance, because it triggers strong emotional reactions.

The suggestion that certain aspects of the Mudcat dynamic matched some of the criteria presented in the original poster's definition of fascism, has resulted in you, Amos, possibly CarolC and Frida, saying "it can't happen here at Mudcat" in what seems to be a reactionary sort of way.

I disagree protofascist behavior can't be seen at Mudcat, because I have seen it here with my own eyes, just as I have seen it at my American workplace, and among my American friends, and my American family. As I said earlier, protofascist behavior doesn't occur in a vacuum. Governments, multinational corporations, the military, etc. are made up of people just like you and me. Like everyone else on this planet, people end up de facto supporting those institutions now overtaken by a specific protofascist ruling elite, not just because some want to support those institutions, but because in everyday life, it is very difficult not to support them indirectly at the very least. I shop for my groceries at a corporate chain, at a food cooperative, and at a small, independent grocer, for instance.

The original poster went to some effort to post a thoughtful, well reasoned set of criteria for using the word fascist/protofascist, that can be used by reasonable people to carry on a very interesting conversation here. It would be sad to see a couple of Mudcat regulars (you and Amos in particular), who constantly attack anyone and everyone who dares to post critical analysis of the Mudcat community vis a vis the 3D communities we also all live and work in, get away with censoring the debate here. As Shambles has consistently pointed out recently, that keeps happening here with alarming regularity.

Are we on our way, again, to calling in the Mudcat enforcers to shut down the discussion because you don't feel comfortable when people criticize this online community by attacking the messenger?

Haven't we seen enough of that here since the Xmas holiday, for gods sake?

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 02:55 PM

Amos... whatsup dude? seems you've been spoiling for a fight... but ohmygod man... we're your friends! Any particular reason why you're going off like a loose canon? c'mon man, lighten up and get back into our little fold... where we enjoy our disagreements and encourage the questions that highlight historic precedent... ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amergin
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 03:13 PM

shambles, put a bloody sock in it...everyone's plainly tired of your shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 03:24 PM

"...a couple of Mudcat regulars (you and Amos in particular), who constantly attack anyone and everyone who dares to post critical analysis of the Mudcat community"

If that was from a person with a name, I'd ask them for date and time of posts I have made which can fairly be described in those terms. I don't attack people, even when I disagree with them.

There's always room for "critical analyses of the Mudcat community". However it would seem to me that a much more constructive way of carrying on a discussion of these would be in a separate thread - perhaps with a link from this thread.

..............................

One of the complications with using "fascism" as the umbrella term is that which brucie touches upon - the involvement of multi-nationalism, and globalisation.

Implicit in "fascism" is the priority of the nation state, but for many of the new tyrannies the nation state is not in reality all that important, though it can be convenient to use the rhetoric at times, and take advantage of people's programmed loyalties and reactions.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 03:35 PM

It's difficult for me to take the Mudcat as a microcosm of the world in which fascism is a threat. Unlike living in the outside world, if one does not like the 'Cat or feels threatened in any way by it, one can choose not to participate. One could even- Heaven forfend! choose not to open the website. Simple.

For once, I agree with Clinton Hammond: This is the internet!

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 04:48 PM

Hey, Shambles,

I really enjoy the Mudcat. It is IMO the absolute best site on the 'net, bar none (well, except for the picture palace of--ah, never mind). Anyway, I have always found the administration people here to be friendly, helpful, encouraging and just plain nice. We all have views, and that includes the admin people. The right of a person to swing his arm stops at the end of my nose. We all live with constraints. There are limits to many things in life, and any toning down I get on the 'cat is likely one I deserve. I don't feel I have ever been 'brought into line' by admin people. Some of my fellow posters have shot me down a time or two, and I have learned from that. It's part of the give and take that occurs with human interaction. Ain't tryin' to lecture. Just sayin'.

Bruce M

PS When a hierarchy becomes all powerful, it just pulls the f33kin' plug--any time it wants.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 05:46 PM

The suggestion that certain aspects of the Mudcat dynamic matched some of the criteria presented in the original poster's definition of fascism, has resulted in you, Amos, possibly CarolC and Frida, saying "it can't happen here at Mudcat" in what seems to be a reactionary sort of way.

No GUEST, I'm not participating in that part of the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 06:45 PM

Amos, I agree that it's OK to be annoyed with something someone doesn't want to hear. I also think it's OK to disagree with
that if someone thinks it's important to hear.

I like the idea of an open forum where you can bitch, moan, argue
and repeat obnoxiously as long as those that don't agree can
disagree.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 06:45 PM

I am particpating. My position is this. Those who contribute to the creation of a positive scene here earn the right of community. Those who seek to help and support and provide insight, positive communication and even constructive advice are those with whom I am happy to associate. I am not spoiling for a fight, I am just fed up with smarmy false datums being flung around to the detriment of the community. Here's an example: "The trouble with a management 'team' of trouble-shooters - in this case one that is formed to combat a perceived outside threat - is that the 'team' has a vested interest in keeping that the idea of that threat alive. "

If they were paid for it, I couls see your point. They are volunteers. They have plenty of real life to do. They were asked to contribute their skills to deal with postings gone awry, duplicate posts, as wlel as posts that made personal attacks, spammed the community, sought commercial gain, or aimed to hurt people. As far as I have seen they have done that.

The point where disagreeing with some specific action these site aides have taken becomes harmful is not in the disagreeing but in the casting of clouds oif generalized negativity, blaming the whole site,   and making sweeping condemnations of the kind we have seen on this topic. A lot of volunteer work and goodhearted volunteerism went into this place and I don't care to see it torn down verbally by those who have neither the sight nor the heart to see what is in front of their faces. I won't just shut up about it. I am tired of it.

Thomas, I am not spoiling for a fight in particular.   You and I clashed on an issue about poetics, which is just a friendly dialogue as far as I am concerned.

This is enough said, as far as I am concerned. My point has been made over and over again, by me and others, and I am tired of making it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 08:14 PM

I looked through that list (characteristics of fascism) - our govt (in Australia) has engaged in them all except number 14 (bogus election). yet the last election was very controversial b/c the govt created a racist, political incident just prior to the election, giving misleading info about a particular ethnic group (refugees, boat people) and people swept them in in a tide of xenophobia.

while the term "fascist" may apply, its effectiveness as a political label is determined by how many people understand the term, and how often it may have been used recklessly in the past.

here is Oz our govt is being characterised as a reactionary govt. it is targeting intellectuals as elitist, has encouraged racism, and labels dissenters as "un australian". in the last 8 years racism has become an issue - has been made an issue by this government.

Barry Finn, I was so glad you put that article up. I have bookmarked the site now. I have been feeling overwhelmed by the dangerous and divisive nature of our current govt. even reading something that helps analyse it is good. in australia we don't have a move on movement, tho we do have some political discussion forums. but the opposition has been crippled to some extent by the govt, who charactise anyone who opposes it as supporting terrorism etc.

shambles, you are right in saying we should examine all structures we are part of. but i can speak freely in this one.

and i don't think guests are scapegoated here, its clear there is a lot of mutual scapegoating. in the meantime, the political machinery is on the move.

fred

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 10:30 PM

Well danged, folks!

What do you all think I've been talkin' about fir the last two years?

Geeze, does something have to come into fashion 'er what?

Fascists is what we got.

No, lots of folks don't like it and others, against overwhelming evidence will deny it, but that's purdy much what we got... Want to stop 'em? Maybe yer last chance in the US but vote 'em out 'cause there may never be a vote again....

Think about it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 10:40 PM

I'm with you there, Bobert. Only problem is, I think they effectively control both your political parties...so who ya gonna vote for?

Still, I do think the Republicans are a bit worse, all things considered, so by all means vote out Mr Bush if you possibly can. They'll at least have to take a breath and reorganize for a bit if there's a change in administration.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 18 Jan 04 - 11:29 PM

Do you really think the Dems could ever top the existing administration LH? IMO, it's no contest...

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: mooman
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 06:54 AM

Reading Barry's original posting, a lot of the points listed there have a disturbing resonance. It seems to me that many of them apply to an increasing number of countries or, at least, political elements withinthose countries. I live in Belgium and, in Antwerp, a disturbing 30% or so of the vote is going to the Vlaamsblock...an extremely right wing and racist part which rants about nationalism a lot. There's a similar disturbing trend in a lot of other countries and, with apologies to some who would disagree here, a lot of these characteristic seem to apply to the current US administration (I'm not talking the US people here - as others have mentioned, a somewhat slavish media is doing its best to disinform the public, as in many other countries).

Regarding the relationship to Mudcat. Mudcat is merely a microcosm reflecting meatspace in general with many different points of view. I personally totally welcome that and don't see any trend towards the suppression of differing views. It is unfortunate that "Guest" has become the focus of vitriol in many cases. Many "Guest" posting I read are highly informative and interesting and probably a very small minority are trolling. I happen to know that far for being a despotic leader mentioned above Max is, in fact, very anti-censorship on this forum (and I am not one of the "elite" or "inner circle" - if such a thing actually exists). I do personally support the actions of the JoeClones to delete messages with unpleasant or intimidating personal attacks. If this were my site I would do the same.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:23 AM

One of the problem with using the term "fascist" is that it lets people off the hook. They look at what's being attacked, and find that in some respect it doesn't really match the term, and move on to the view that in that case it means things are really OK.

"Fascism" is a particular deformation of society in particular times and places. This has some aspects which are also increasingly characteristic of some of the societies we are living in, and we should be very worried about that. But using the word loosely actually makes it easier for many people to avoid those worries, because they can look at other aspects where there are real differences.

And what it also misses is that there are some very threatening aspects of our societies which weren't available under Fascism in its various forms. Technology means that it is now possible for the authorities to have far more knowledge of and control of us in our daily lives than would ever have been possible in Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy.

It is now actually possible for our rulers to exercise total control over us, one by one, as and when they choose. That has never been possible before, not even in slave societies. The all-embracing nature of this control means that it can be exercised without any need to use the heavy-handed methods that are associated with "fascism" - and if we think about it, that potentially makes it even more frightening.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: GUEST,John Hardly
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:40 AM

When the Democrat presidential candidate wins this November the USA will instantly be un-fascist again. I can't wait. I've been terrified that the 51% of people who hate the direction we're taking are going to roll over and play dead.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:06 AM

We shouldn't just bemoan the symptoms of growing fascism in Mudcat in general terms, we should call the names of the worst offenders:

1. Powerful and continuing expressions of nationalism. Greg F. has spoken out innumerous times his mind about American supremacy.

2. Disdain for the importance of human rights. Katlaughing surely deserves to be outed as the worst offender here.

3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Let us not forget how JoeO tries to unify us against innocents who only insist of their right to double or triple posts. How dares he to decide that multiple postings of identical words is not done with artful purpose?

4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. I could name many here, but to name just one, think of war hero Big Mick who gloats in everything remotely military.

5. Rampant sexism. Peg surely deserves most of the miscredit here.

6. A controlled mass media. MMario tries to control all input to Mudcat tunes since ages. What are his sinister motives in doing so?

7. Obsession with national security. CarolC is obsessed with personal and national security.

8. Religion and ruling elite tied together. Little Hawk, a member of the ruling elite here, is known for his remorceless defense of traditional religion.

9. Power of corporations protected. You can trust Bobert never to fail to post in support of them.

10. Power of labor suppressed or eliminated. Sorcha is doing her worst to undermine organised labor by trying whenever possible to post first the result of completely individual searches. By doing this in the way of early capitalist homework at an incredibly cheap wage she prevents others being payed a decent wage for doing hard searches.

11. Disdain and suppression of intellectuals and the arts. Peter T. is infamous here for his outspoken anti-intellectual attitude. Arts I guess he only knows when paired with 'martial'

12. Obsession with crime and punishment. McGrath of Harlow has often spoken harshly about petty offenders and is a stern advocate of capital punishment.

13. Rampant cronyism and corruption. Isn't it Gareth who has rallied his British cronies to trust him with Mudcat monies? And what happens? Mudcat is still unavailable once per week.

14. Fraudulent erections. Frau-Du-Lent (retranslated from German: woman, you, spring), well, when analysed like this, it should spring to your mind that the prime suspect here must be Wolfgang.

I could have named many more here and several suspects would have merited multiple nominations, but, to cite a song from Christy Moore, I can but name a few. Perhaps next time.

Wolfgang

More seriously, with the possble exception of (3) (with a generous dose of twisted perception) I see nothing in Mudcat which is remotely similar to Fascist tendencies.

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:14 AM

Fraudulent erections?????????? LOL

Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet
From: mooman
Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:23 AM

Excellent analysis Wolfgang...but aren't you known more for somnolent prostrations than fraudulent erections...?

Peace

moo