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Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat)
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:37 AM When are we going to have our March on Rome? (We could call it a Mudcat Euro-gathering...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Amos Date: 19 Jan 04 - 11:01 AM Wolfgang!! Humour????? My God, where is the world coming to??? LOL!! Thanks for the grin! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Bill D Date: 19 Jan 04 - 11:26 AM Well!, I for one am terribly upset at being left out of Wolfgang's list! Surely 7 years of haranging for better standards of jokes & humor and trying to foist off myriads of freeware programs should count for something why, I.......*runs off in fit of giggling* (thank you, Wolfgang...that made my day...maybe WEEK!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Bobert Date: 19 Jan 04 - 12:16 PM Well, Bill. After all my ranting here I only got an honorable mention, my ownseff, sniff... CarolC made out like a bandit, though, so I suspect she's got the goods (think photographs here...) on Wolfgang... Cold over yer way? Yeah, cold over here, too but I'm happy to report that me and the Wes Ginny Slide Rule have deducted that the fascist ain't got nuthin to do with it. Nor do the big greedy corporations... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Little Hawk Date: 19 Jan 04 - 02:27 PM Ha! Ha! Ha! Marvelous, Wolfgang!!! Two skunks up! (That's a Don's Coffeehouse expression denoting the highest approval.) You could also have included Spaw for his blatantly obvious fascist tendencies, such as resorting to vulgar overstatement and scatalogical hyperbole with an eye toward inciting a paranoid public to commit and support violent acts against minority groups! Like an old general, he has retired somewhat into the background of late, but his overall influence remains profound. I am so thrilled that you noted my slavish adherence to traditional religions...and the fact that I am now among the ruling elite! Yes, it's a glorious time to be alive. The sheer sense of power and control that I derive from posting on this forum gives me chills. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: GUEST Date: 19 Jan 04 - 02:50 PM In Mudcat, the practice of obfuscation whenever the forum is criticized, has been made a religion of sorts, with certain Mudcat members acting as it's priesthood. Folks here seem very touchy about any suggestion about Mudcat possibly engaging in: 3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Ahem. See Wolfgang's remarks above. 4. The supremacy of the military/avid militarism. Mudcat has no military, but there are most certainly enforcers of rules. In protofascist communities, it is never quite clear to the masses who all the enforcers are, or what the rules are that are being enforced. Protofascist communities always have a group of secret enforcers, and rules are always ambiguous and arbitrary. 7. Obsession with national security. In Mudcat, the obsession is with forum security, but it is an obsession nonetheless, most often manifesting with xenophobic paranoia about 'guest' posters. The point is, a community doesn't need to embody all 14 of the above listed characteristics of fascism, for some fascist characteristics to be routinely made manifest by enough members of that community with impunity, for those specific fascist characteristics to be deemed acceptable behaviour by the majority of the community's members. Once the majority of community members agree upon #3 (guests in Mudcat's case), and agree that the community needs protection from the scapegoated group in order for it's members to be "safe" (#7), then it is a mere hop, skip, and jump to #4, where the ruling elite (in this case Max, Pene and Joe Offer) appoint their secret security apparatus (the Joe Clones), and voila! The rules enforcers take secret action to police against the perceived threat(s) the scapegoated group represents. In Mudcat's case, the threats most often mentioned that need to be 'dealt with' by the Mudcat rules enforcers are: insulting the members (this is usually described as the 'personal attack' rule); identity theft of the Mudcat name/identity of a member, and/or obsession with exposing the identity of anonymous guests). It is quite easy for members of a community to come to a quick consensus, when insiders feel threatened by those perceive as being 'undesirable' outsiders infiltrating their community. Too often, #3, #4, and #7 are made manifest in response to the incursions by these dreaded outsiders, whether that community be online or in the 3D world. #3, #4, and #7 are such common responses, that they are usually the first acts leading many community members to gleefully dive down the slippery slope. Protofascism becomes more and more pervasive, creeps in a little bit at a time, is often a sign of the times, as it seems to be now in Britain and the US. To suggest "it can't happen here" in Mudcat, is just head in the sand thinking. It can and does happen everywhere, among people that in less oppresive times, would never exhibit such protofascist behavioural characteristics. This place, and the people inhabiting it, are no exception. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jan 04 - 02:58 PM Naw - the thing with Spaw would have been his prim obsession with censoring any mention of bodily functions on the Cat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Peace Date: 19 Jan 04 - 03:32 PM Dear Guest of two posts above this'un. If you think anything here is fascist, you are using the word incorrectly. I won't fault your right to say what you want, but not being able to say what you want is a concept that has more commerce with totalitarianism than it does with the characteristics of a fascist state. Second, I disagree with you. In/on a truly oppressive site, your remarks would have been deleted, and thsi thread would never have lasted this long. Its very existing attests to the wrongness of the initial premise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Amos Date: 19 Jan 04 - 03:34 PM Aw, Jesus, Guest -- give it a break, would you? Our obsession with forum security is a strong desire not to see people get hurt -- ninety per cent of the time when someone jumps in to act forceful it is because someone else is shooting off their mouth in a way that is overtly hurtful. Or, worse, covertly hurtful. What you seem to be missing is the volunteer nature of everything said and done here on the 'Cat -- building it, keeping it up, or trying to drag it down. Everyone gets to choose which they will do, and you seem to really enjoy the latter. No ownder you meet with resistance, eh? Instead of stepping on other peoples' toes all the time, whyncha just stuff your toes into your mouth and bite down hard. 'Cuz you're not using your mouth for anything productive just now anyway. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton Date: 19 Jan 04 - 04:05 PM I think that to apply the term "facist" to the US as a whole country at this point is too general. There are facistic tendencies, however,when the Attorney General incarcerates 700 in Guantanamo without due process, this fits the specific definition. The US is also "socialist" because we have Social Security. The labels can be carefully applied to specific actions but not to the country as a whole. Hegemony is now national policy. But "facism" has to be applied in context. I think it's fair to talk about specific actions and label them accordingly as long as they are defined in context and not generalized. Frank |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Jan 04 - 04:09 PM Maybe there's a distinction between the freedom to say what you want, and the freedom to force other people listen to it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Bill D Date: 19 Jan 04 - 04:20 PM gol-DURN, I didn't realize our management and 'volunteers' were in reality priestly, obfuscating, 'enforcers' exhibiting behaviorial tendencies which are fraught with pervasive, proto-facist, xenophobic paranoia towards scapegoats! Does |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: The Shambles Date: 19 Jan 04 - 07:55 PM Amos your over-reaction when you perceive any criticism of our unpaid volunteers reminds me of that Monty Python sketch. The one where the customer is accused of not being fit to lick the boots of the poor chef - when all the customer initially, and reasonably asks the waiter for is a clean fork. Let us turn the argument around a little bit. If you lived in a state where you had policing and police but no rules to protect you from these police - would it really be so unreasonable to ask for some rules? Would there be a time in the development of this state when it may be reaonably safe to make this request and would there be a time when making this request would not be a safe course for an individual? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Ebbie Date: 19 Jan 04 - 08:37 PM Shambles, methinks you have read too much Dreaded Guest. Give it a rest, will you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Amos Date: 19 Jan 04 - 08:49 PM No, let's not. You continuously use analogies that collapse at the first comparison to actuality and then wonder why others don't get the point. Anyone who walks in to the Mudcat asking for a clean fork -- let' s say the equivalent to that in our space is a request for lyrics -- gets it in three minutes or three days for the tough ones, as a friendly contribution by someone who likes to help. Might be you or me or Sorcha or anyone. Now, first all I do not live in the Cat. Second of all I know the difference between List Moms (as they are known elsewhere) and police and it is scurrilous to collapse that distinction. Third of all I know the general boundaries of what the List Moms here will do and will not do, and believe there is good reason for having them do those things. Fourthly I think I know what the common grounds of community well being are that will require action. I have learned all Roger, there is a point where the virtue of persistence becomes the pathological patern of perseverance. Goodnight, pal. Sleep peacefully. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Big Mick Date: 19 Jan 04 - 08:55 PM there is a point where the virtue of persistence becomes the pathological pattern of perseverance. Amen. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: The Shambles Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:08 PM Careful reading of Wolfgang's post will reveal the following – which seems to have been overlooked in the general surprise expressed - that Wolfgang has a very good sense of humour. More seriously, with the possible exception of (3) (with a generous dose of twisted perception) I see nothing in Mudcat which is remotely similar to Fascist tendencies. 3. Identification of enemies/scapegoats as a unifying cause. Let us not forget how JoeO tries to unify us against innocents who only insist of their right to double or triple posts. How dares he to decide that multiple postings of identical words is not done with artful purpose? My perception may indeed have become a little twisted over the years I have been contributing to our forum, but the view of your own police force is coloured by which side of them you personally come into contact with. If, for example you can produce the video evidence of your beating at the hands of the LAPD – it may be just about possible to convince many law-abiding citizens that such abuses do happen. Although it would appear that many people still seem determined to ignore any evidence that contradicts their deeply held view or is that it is OK as long as the abuses are happening to others? No one is saying that the fact that these abuses DO happen - makes all police bad people. The point I would make here is that there is only one punishment for any crime. And that this punishment is used increasingly and not just by Joe. Is it really proportionate that personal attack using foul language from an anonymous poster will receive exactly the same summary justice as a duplicate or an incoherent posting? There seems to be many more than these two examples of what is not allowed and that will receive this one punishment and these would appear to be increasing. However, the questions that are not at all unreasonable to ask - must be: 1 Should the punishment fit the crime and does it currently? 2 Are all the volunteers authorised to administer summary justice and censor other's postings – without the poster's knowledge or permission – based only on their value judgement? 3 Is there to be no difference to be seen between an abusive post and say an incoherent one? 4 Is a sensible and responsible example being to set when our volunteer police force also indulge in making abusive posts themselves and start calling other posters names? 5 Is it really too much to ask that those that would volunteer to judge (and punish) us – can be expected to always set the standards and be judged themselves by these standards? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: The Shambles Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:18 PM No, let's not. You continuously use analogies that collapse at the first comparison to actuality and then wonder why others don't get the point. Anyone who walks in to the Mudcat asking for a clean fork -- let' s say the equivalent to that in our space is a request for lyrics -- gets it in three minutes or three days for the tough ones, as a friendly contribution by someone who likes to help. Might be you or me or Sorcha or anyone. No,let's not. Your analogy is one where you would just order your meal and be served. The correct analogy is more to one where the lyrics are supplied and the original poster does not say thanks or appears - to the outraged member(s) posting in response - to be otherwise ungrateful in some way. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Amos Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:18 PM Roger: Look through the FAQs and other posts available to newcomers and tell me the guidelines are not published. I am pretty sure they have been explicated in the past if not several times. No-one on the Cat has ever been punished and it just an alarmist exaggeration to call it that. Nor has anyone posting to the cat ever committed a crime by doing so except perhaps inducing emotional distress or assault with a blunt sense of humor. Even if the whole story was a secret council with editorial power based entirely on whimsy (which it is not) it is pretty much a decision that gets made by the owner. I guess it is like painting the walls in a house. If you own it, you choose the colors. If you don;t own it, you have to clear it with he who do. The Cat is not a "commune", it is a "community". Big diff. No, it is not too much to ask, now that you are boiling it down to a courteous request. It IS too much to whinge about, though. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Peace Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:42 PM Shambles, it is a pleasure to make your aquaintance. I am a calm, nice guy. I have this to say: I like the Mudcat and it is not fascistic, totalitarianistic, or any of those other words that are getting thrown around. For instance is not proof. When I fought in the dojang (gym) or the odd tournament, occasionally I get a punch or kick that was technically unfair. Know what? No one gave a shit. I recall taking a spin back kick in the nuts: drove 'em into my body. Hurt like a sonuvabitch. My master made me keep my knees locked and my legs straight. He picked me up about half a dozen times and pile drove me to the floor, where I hit with my heels. It drove my nuts back into the scrotum (where I like to keep 'em), and then he gave me shit for bein' sloppy and causing him grief. He made me finish the match. I lost. What I'm reading here is Mickey Mouse stuff. I mean you no insult. But I think insults are getting thrown around here. Men take it outside and deal with it. Real men resolve the issue. Remember, most of these people are your friends, and the heat of argument is an easy place to forget that. I have seen that many people here respect you. Have your say, but remember that these are your friends. I don't think you have any fascist friends, do you? Bruce M |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: The Shambles Date: 19 Jan 04 - 09:51 PM Look through the FAQs and other posts available to newcomers and tell me the guidelines are not published. I am pretty sure they have been explicated in the past if not several times. No need to inflict the FAQ issue again on everyone here - the following thread from the HELP forum will cover this point - to anyone still interested. Why are my threads been deleted? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:08 PM The Shambles' feeling pushed, ingratiating has become And often is now shushed, but no one thinks he's dumb His argument's devisive, good people find their guard And everyone's incisive, where is his better bard? The point Shambles is making, it means something to him But caustic are his postings, like mine have been on whim If he needs understanding, I'm one who thinks he does Let's stop this reprimanding, and find in him a plus These witty little put downs, all coupled with his pains Are tripping us like clowns, who's laughing will remain? So Shambles, let me ask you, if you will let me dare Is it really true? Are you still hurt in there? ttr PS...I see absolutely no similarities between this forum and totalitarianism. None. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: freda underhill Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:24 PM hi shambles did you ever hear the story of the boy that cried wolf? whhile you're shouting about the "wolf"in mudcat, the Big Bad Wolf of fascism is knocking on the door. Little Pig, Little Pig, let me come in.... have you noticed him out there? because in here, there is a comfy couch and a keyboard. out there, there is a genuine BBW, just chomping away. I'd rather have Joe Offer than Rupert Murdoch controlling this screen any day. ps still enjoying your rhymes freda |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Amos Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:38 PM Joe's answer to Shambles inthe Help forum is exactly what I would have expected. It is also covered in the FAQ if you wish to look. Thomas, your point is good, and generally true of anyone who resorts to ambiguous generalizations and arm waving -- they are yapping out of pain. A compassionate thing to understand. And appreciated, and necessary. In the larger picture, possibly not sufficient, but appreciated anyway. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: The Shambles Date: 19 Jan 04 - 10:44 PM whhile you're shouting about the "wolf"in mudcat, the Big Bad Wolf of fascism is knocking on the door. No the wolf of fascism is not knocking on our door It comes and goes quite freely, as many times before We alone can invite it in - or tell it to depart For the big bad wolf of fascism - it dwells in all our hearts Why would you wish anyone to control our screens? Is it just a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Jan 04 - 06:35 AM HEY!! BARRY!!!! Great find and thanks for the post. HEY!! WOLFIE!!!! I always knew you had it in you....glad it wasn't too painful to get out......... HEY!! ROGER!!!! Give it a break sometime huh? I know eternal vigilance and all that and I think a lot of folks understand and care about your concerns, even agree to some extent or another!Unfortunately, a lot of those same people are also fried crisp with the intensity of your "Eternal Flame" and are ready to hold a mass piss-in to put it out. Ease up man. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jan 04 - 07:26 AM Why would you wish anyone to control our screens? Isn't that precisely what has happened in this thread? Thread drift is one thing, but hijacking a thread like this is something quite different. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jan 04 - 07:43 AM "Can we please do as customary on threads and respect the wishes or the original poster..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Jan 04 - 07:54 AM Yeah. One person, as far as I can see, decided to hijack a useful and thought-provoking thread here about a very important subject and turn it into his own personal venue for carping endlessly about a very trivial matter...presumably because he got his feelings hurt somewhere along the way. For heaven's sake, get over it. I have had, oh, three or four threads which I launched on this forum censored and removed in the past three years. (and I thought they were entirely harmless threads, and hopefully quite funny, which was how I intended them to be when I posted them). So? Was I irritated about it at each time when it occurred? Yes, definitely. Surprised and quite irritated...and I PM'd Joe Offer and complained about it to him personally, and explained why I was irritated about it. And what did he say? He said more or less this: I know where you're coming from, LH, and I know you don't mean anything wrong by that thread, but there are some people who just won't get it and it could cause a real problem because of that, so I thought it was best not to continue with it. I didn't entirely agree with Joe on that, but I understood his position perfectly...as he understood mine. Furthermore, I balanced my momentary irritation over other people's emotional hangups against the fact that I LIKE this forum the other 98% of the time! And I got over it (in a day or less) and I continued enjoying this forum. And I did not hijack a whole bunch of other threads and keep harassing people in general with my hurt feelings. Does that suggest anything useful to you, Shambles? I mean, really, what in God's name are you doing going on and on about this for on a thread that was intended to be about fascism in World politics? - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: GUEST,voice of reason Date: 20 Jan 04 - 08:32 AM Just an idea, if threads are being deleted because Joe thinks that some people may "not get it", would it not be fairer all around if the people who may "not get it", complain themselves. Therefore giving the poster an opportunity to respond him/herself? Yup, just as I thought, far tooooooooo sensible. As you were. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: GUEST Date: 20 Jan 04 - 12:00 PM I'm utterly depressed. It appears that Shambles has become the new Mudcat scapegoat, and everyone except Amos and McGrath are ignoring me. I'm not worried though. Because the membership has assured me that fascist behavior DOESN'T HAPPEN HERE! :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Bill D Date: 20 Jan 04 - 01:02 PM "...Shambles has become the new Mudcat scapegoat..." ummm....1)you need to look up 'scapegoat', he has become more of a 'gadfly' 2)do you not expect gadflies to be swatted at when they bite the same spot over & over?..3)Shambles is PART of the 'membership...you are not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jan 04 - 01:30 PM No nameless-GUEST post can ever be assumed to come from the same person as any other nameless-GUEST post. (Not even if it claims to.) So there's absolutely no point in swatting such a post. It'd be a bit like responding to a poison-pen letter by sending a response with "Address Unknown" written on the envelope. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Bill D Date: 20 Jan 04 - 01:33 PM (the point is, with a little effort, either Shambles or I could find and drop in on each other and have a beer and debate all this...maybe just agreeing to keep disagreeing, but as people, not shadows.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Amos Date: 20 Jan 04 - 01:36 PM Mon copain Bill D as bien frappe le nail justement sur le fucking head, bien sur. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Peace Date: 20 Jan 04 - 01:56 PM ". . . sur le fucking head . . .". LMAO Yeah, I have come to like Shambles, despite the fact I don't agree with him. The GUEST guy, well, ya know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: The Shambles Date: 20 Jan 04 - 03:05 PM "Can we please do as customary on threads and respect the wishes or the original poster..." Glad to see that irony is not lost on you Kevin. *Smiles* If I have 'hijacked' this thread from Barry's original intent I am sorry - but I would appear to have had rather a lot of help.............From my friends? Unfortunately, a lot of those same people are also fried crisp with the intensity of your "Eternal Flame" and are ready to hold a mass piss-in to put it out. Ease up man. If some of this energy could be devoted to ensuring that some of my reasonable questions are reasonably and truthfully answered and the resulting issues finally addressed - we may all be able to feel that we could all ease up...... It is pretty obvious that members ignoring all the evidence, insulting me or encouraging or taking part in yet more witch hunting has not and will not alone change my view and that I have as much right to express that view as anyone else - so perhaps another and more possibly constructive approach can be taken? Answers to the 5 questions - posted earlier in the thread - would be a start. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Jan 04 - 04:18 PM But why not start a thread asking the questions, and put a link to it here, so that people who wanted to deal with the questions could do so there and people who wanted to get back to Barry Finn's thread could do so here? (Might be the same people even.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: The Shambles Date: 20 Jan 04 - 05:13 PM But why not start a thread asking the questions, and put a link to it here, so that people who wanted to deal with the questions could do so there and people who wanted to get back to Barry Finn's thread could do so here? As there is nothing stoping folk from talking about hampsters in the BS thread you have suggested - there is also nothing stopping folk from discussing Barry's original document posted in this BS thread. Horses, bolting and stable doors kind also come to mind - . I have been asked questions in this thread from folk who do seem to think it OK to post them here - so it would seem to be sensible to answer them here also. I have had, oh, three or four threads which I launched on this forum censored and removed in the past three years. (and I thought they were entirely harmless threads, and hopefully quite funny, which was how I intended them to be when I posted them). So? You may well have just gone on to accept that Joe alone was entitled to use his personal value judgement to decide for others – what they may find offensive but are not contributors to this forum adult enough to make that decision for themselves? Especially, as there is now a separate BS section – set aside for such things - where anyone opening these threads will reasonable expect to find BS. If they then complain to Joe and Co that they are offended – why can they not simply inform them not to open the thread? Every little bit of info adds to the evidence that will be news to many of the people who consider that our forum is something else than what it plainly is becoming and are defending the current system – on that basis. Also evidence to others who may not realise that others are sharing the experience of having their contributions censored and who also may disagree (at the time) with Joe and Co's opinion for taking this action. Is it really so unreasonable to try and ensure that this censorship action is? Understood (and hopefully agreed) by all the contributors. Is limited - to where absolutely necessary. Remains under tight control to ensure that it is not used as an excuse to shape our forum. This to prevent others from feeling aggrieved now and in the future and to protect those who would volunteer to undertake this censorship. Frank posts saying that he likes to think of the forum as democracy. Others don't go that far. Some talk of it being a 'benevolent dictatorship' (I suspect those who have not lived under a dictatorship). What is the other one? Oh yes and this is one Joe Offer has referred to – that of the forum being like 'controlled anarchy'. If you are the one(s) in control - I suppose that one might have a nice ring to it – for it basically means that YOU can do just as you please, with the contributions of others. However, this is a privately owned website of which this part has been set aside contributions from the public and as been pointed out - our forum is not a state so none of these things – including being a fascist regime – are ever going to be exactly the case. Sadly an objective view of our forum – especially the 'scapegoating' so graphically demonstrated, encouraged and tolerated in this thread, which shows the very worst aspect of our forum – would be that a review of how censorship should be undertaken – would be timely – if not already too late. Time to ring some changes? Requested by Joe Offer! Written by Richard Thompson Appears on Small Town Romance (1984) This old house is a-tumbling down The walls are gone but the roof is sound The landlord's deaf, he can never be found It's time to ring some changes They'll arrest you son if you just stand still They'll ask you to pose with your hand in the till They'll ask you to die when you've written your will It's time to ring some changes>Snip< |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Little Hawk Date: 20 Jan 04 - 06:24 PM "You may well have just gone on to accept that Joe alone was entitled to use his personal value judgement to decide for others..." Not at all. I just accept the fact that life is not perfect, and I can't control everything. Joe Offer is in some kind of official regulating position on this forum (which consumes some of his valuable time, I'm sure). I am not. I accept that I cannot control Joe Offer, nor can I control this forum, nor does it particularly worry me that I cannot always make things here exactly as I would like them to be. How about you? I understand your points, Shambles. I would rather those threads of mine had not been deleted...and I would have been happy to explain to certain aggrieved people who didn't like them what my intentions were...but...shrug! It just ain't that big a deal. It seems to be a very big deal to you, though, and that's what puzzles me. How about we just start a whole new thread about fascism in politics...and change the title on this one to something else? :-) Whaddya say, Joe? We could also change the term "Guest" to read "beloved and well-respected friend of the forum" in all future cases of anonymous or named Guest postings. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Jan 04 - 02:59 AM I dunno. I'm still trying to figure out the part about the fraudulent erections. I can't stop laughing - but I'm not sure I understand what I'm laughing about. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: The Shambles Date: 21 Jan 04 - 09:37 AM Are we to have elections here then? Joe Offer is in some kind of official regulating position on this forum (which consumes some of his valuable time, I'm sure). I am not. I accept that I cannot control Joe Offer, nor can I control this forum, nor does it particularly worry me that I cannot always make things here exactly as I would like them to be. How about you? I understand your points, Shambles. I would rather those threads of mine had not been deleted...and I would have been happy to explain to certain aggrieved people who didn't like them what my intentions were...but...shrug! It just ain't that big a deal. Well it depends on where you are coming from and your expectations. I accept that I can't control Joe Offer or indeed anyone else, but have no wish to be controlled by Joe Offer or to have our forum governed by his personal taste. When I first started posting to our forum – Joe was already a 'volunteer' loaded with his edit button but used it mainly for 'tiding up'. He posted along with everyone else and tried to set an example by the manner of his posting - which was an excellent example and one and many of us were more than happy to follow and I was one of Joe's biggest fans. However, this has slowly changed to one where judgement, editing, deletion and moving of other peoples contributions, without their permission has become routine and folk even post only to request that someone else's contribution be censored in some fashion. Everyone seems to want to judge everyone else's right to post and appears to be being encouraged to do this – by the example being set. Your posts were deleted from our forum – it would seem purely on a question of taste - as Joe decided in advance of any complaint being made that someone may have been offended. Your posts may not have been to my personal tastes but as they were to your taste – I would probably been of the opinion that there would have been someone out there who shared your taste and that no one has to open every thread. This current situation, where even BS contributions are censored because they do not conform to the personal tastes of Joe or the other volunteers – who are supposed to report to Joe before taking editing action but repeatedly do not - is not an example that I am happy to follow. If I had only just come across this site – I would quickly move on. But I have not just arrived. I feel that along with many others I have made many positive contributions and that we can all take a certain pride in (plus a few not so positive ones). For this is OUR forum – it is not Joe's and it should reflect all of our tastes – as it always has done and not just reflect the personal tastes of a few individuals who sit in judgement. If we don't like what we post, then it is up to us to address that – by simply not posting it. By not replying to and goading obvious trouble-makers and extending the life of the thread. By not wishing to deny the freedom to others – that we would wish to have ourselves, and so on. I feel that it is indeed time to rings some changes and to see if our baby can be allowed to finally grow up and reflect all the contributions of ALL those that create it and enable us all to be proud of it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Big Mick Date: 21 Jan 04 - 09:45 AM Roger, in typical demagogic fashion, you have created a false premise and then try and cause folks to debate it so it becomes truth. It is not OUR forum. It is Max's forum. He pays the freight, he keeps the server running (a particularly tough problem these days), and he devotes the time. There is some financial support (Friends of Mudcat are doing a spectacular job), but the bottom line is that this is his baby. Not OURS. Quit trying to create a false predicate. The Mudcat serves many purposes. One of those is that it seems to provide an outlet for your lack of other things in your life. Fair enough. But don't expect us to sit back and buy into your amateurish and childish schemes. You have had some issues (PEL, for example) that some of us agreed with you on. I even sent the requested emails on your behalf. But a broken clock is right twice a day. I would tell you to take a rest, but you thrive on that. So instead, I will just tell you that I understand your need for attention. I sure wish you would get a lover, or a hobby, or something..... Mick |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Amos Date: 21 Jan 04 - 10:21 AM Rog, ya gotta get over this fraudulent We you keep using. That is what destroyed the Soviet Union, man. There is no "we" there. You keep flogging this thing and it keeps being dead and you keep flogging it. To the degree there is a reliable forum here, it does not come from nor belong to any "We". It comes from and belongs to Max and a few others who back him up. The good in it comes from individuals, as does all good. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: The Shambles Date: 21 Jan 04 - 10:41 AM As I have said before - The Mudcat IS Max's website. If he should wish to delete postings or to pull the plug altogether - it would be very sad but it would be a matter for him. However, he has kindly given over this part of it for contributions from any members of the public who wishes to stop by and make one. Reflecting his tastes - he would have preferred I am sure - more blues on our forum than being taken over by troublesome folkies - but he has rather allowed our forum reflect its contributions - especially with kindly also hosting the DT which also relies on contributions from the public. So, - we all (including Max) have OUR forum for our views (on Max's site). What ever our forum is intended to be - I doubt that it was not intended to be a private club reflecting the tastes of only a small few volunteers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: Peace Date: 22 Jan 04 - 01:56 AM And here I sit so patiently, Waiting to find out what price, Ya have to pay to get out of Going through these things twice. Thank you, Bobby. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet From: dianavan Date: 23 Jan 04 - 12:35 AM Thanks Barry for posting the original message. I think most folks are just sitting back and hoping the some gallant knight will come along to slay the dragon. What we fail to understand is that we are feeding the dragon. We are also the knight. Everyday. Stand up. Speak out. Tell people that its unjust. Tell people that it is unkind. Do it at home, at school, and in the workplace. Shambles and Barry and everyone else. Its a good thing to create political controvery, however, one must always remember that divide and conquer is the best strategy of all when you want to control the people. Keep everyone at each other's throats so that they cannot recognize the real enemy. |
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Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat) From: GUEST,GUEST, naive Shlio Date: 24 Jan 04 - 09:09 AM Mudcat's threads are down the sink The clickies mke them interlinked No more guffaws from onscreen wit When you're not a member, these posts are sh*t Those noble members,once admired Now leave me feeling rather tired They hijack threads such as these And instead discuss 'Cat policies The need for such posts is very clear But I doubt the place for them is here And though the discussion can get heated Peoples' opinions are being repeated Six months ago it didn't seem like this But now when I scroll down the lists So many seem to spend their time Insulting others - perhaps in rhyme Some deride guests, who merely seek facts And some have questioned the wisdom of Max A negative current is running through the scene As innocent threads are used to vent spleen Since this is my first post, I hope I've been moderate (As it's doubtful I'll ever be a Poet Laureate) I'm just concerned 'bout what Mudcat's coming to And (to stay on the subject) 'bout the USA too. Shlio |
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Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat) From: Amos Date: 24 Jan 04 - 09:17 AM And so, goodnight Enough's more than enough. We've all enjoyed this interlude With less than pleasant stuff We heard it out, replied and then We've heard it once again And it is plain, if we stood still We'd hear it ten times ten! So never fear, the noise is here And if, for titillation, You feel the need to renew this screed Just come back to this station. But otherwise, avert your eyes From mental aggravation And turn your mind to realler things, To friendship, life and singing There's grief enough in people's lives Without all this hand-wringing. A |
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Subject: RE: Are We having fun as Fascists Yet (at Mudcat) From: GUEST,obnig hrobdog Date: 24 Jan 04 - 04:58 PM It looks mostly benevolent to me. |
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