BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off

Subject: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Joybell
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 07:21 PM

Recently a study of Cornish traits revealed that a large proportion of people of Cornish descent had second toes that are longer than their big toes. We all took our shoes off at the Cornish Association meeting I was attending and sure enough - most of us had Cornish toes. This trait also occurs when the transverse arch is flat (Morton's syndrome) but many of us had normal arches.
As an interesting side note - the statue of Apollo in Bendigo, where Cornish miners made up 80% of the miners there in the mid 19th Century, has very Cornish toes.

How many Mudcatters have Cornish toes? Just wondering.
                                           Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Gareth
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 07:29 PM

£$%^&!&@*!!!! I've just checked - Does this mean I is Cornish rather than Welsh !

Thank the Lord I can sing both "Cosher Bailey" and "Shall Trelawney Die"

Gareth

Catters calling me "Couzin Jack" will not be treated gently !

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: lady penelope
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 07:42 PM

I was always under the impression that the second toe being longer than the first was a left over from pre Homo Sapiens. (Yes my second toes are longer than my first, my parents are Glaswegian........? ). It's usually found in people who cannot fully straighten their arms, so the theory went, which I also can't do.

There we are, clear as mud. How about you, Great Uncle Gareth?   : )

TTFN Lady ( I'll get me animal skin ) P.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Joybell
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 07:44 PM

Well Hello Cousin Gareth! Regards Cousin Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Joybell
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 07:50 PM

Oh yes my arms won't go straight either! Comes from leaving the tree-canopy where they would be stretched all the time, maybe. Hello Wild Woman Cousin Lady Penelope.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Jeri
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 07:56 PM

My toes go in a nice, straight decending line from big to small, so I guess I'm not cornish. My complexion's a bit pasty though.

And what does it mean if you've got a web between your 7th and 8th toes? I've always wondered about that.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Little Robyn
Date: 31 Jan 04 - 07:59 PM

I have!!!
My ancestors came from Trescowthick farm, Newlyn, near Newquay!
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Joybell
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 12:43 AM

Cousin Little Robyn, Hello!
Jeri - Platypus for sure! But probably not the Great Cornish Platypus.
Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: mack/misophist
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 01:57 AM

Polish and Irish here. Perfectly good Cornish toes, though.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 02:11 AM

Maybe they're Celtic toes? I have 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 04:55 AM

I am not going to discuss my toes on a public forum, but I'll show you mine if you show me yours.

Robyn, Newlyn is near Penzance, not Newquay.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 05:25 AM

Have you tried corn plasters - my Grandma said they work miracles.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 06:21 AM

My second toe is much taller than my big toe- but I have very high arches!
My ancesters came from Framlingham, Suffolk,(paternal) and the Midlands, where my mother's father's people were charcoal burners long ago.

There's also a bit of Irish on both maternal lines. Don't know about Cornish.

Allison

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Jeanie
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 07:46 AM

This difference in foot shapes is fascinating and is of great interest to archaeologists. Phyllis Jackson, a chiropodist, noticed the difference in the angle of toe lines in the people she treated, and started an investigation into bones found in excavations.

Her article on the subject appeared in 'Current Archaeology, 144, August 1995' which you can read online here: Footloose in Archaeology

There certainly does appear to be a marked difference between the "Romano-British" foot shape [toes straight across] and the "Anglo-Saxon" foot shape [noticeable downward slant from big toe to little toe]. Most useful to archaeologists/historians in trying to answer the thorny (and as yet not satisfactorily answered) question of how many Anglo-Saxons actually came over here from the 6th century on, how far/when/where they drove the Britons, and if/when the Anglo-Saxons and Romano-British interbred.

- jeanie
(Anglo-Saxon feet, despite having both parents born and bred in Wales, maternal grandfather from Devon, paternal grandfather from Scotland, other grandparents Welsh)

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Jeanie
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 07:48 AM

Sorry - correction - mistyped 6th century: I meant 5th century.
- jeanie

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 01:33 PM

Well no claims to being Cornish here not with these toes! My brother used to live in Framlingham though which of course is totally irrelavant. He hasn't got Cornish toes either BTW.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Little Robyn
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 02:05 PM

St Newlyn East is just in from Mitchell, off the A30. My folks left there about 200 years ago but I've seen their house.
Hey, are we descended from Hobbits or something?
Robyn in Middle Earth (NZ)

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 04:01 PM

Were they miners Robyn?

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: RangerSteve
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 04:05 PM

My big toes and second toes are the same length. I guess my ancestors are from whatever is next to Cornwall.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Tinker
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 04:25 PM

Not only are the second toes longer in my family, the toes have functional use of both joints. (Makes picking things up off the floor easier.) Also seems to be a dominant trait, since my husband does not have it, but all four kids do. As far as I know it came from my French-Canadian Father, no apparent Cornish on that side at least after the 1600's.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 05:33 PM

"...what does it mean if you've got a web between your 7th and 8th toes?" - on both feet? Surely that means you're from the planet Zog, Jeri?

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: GUEST,Wover
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 05:55 PM

Now I ain't no 'fessional poddieatrisk but the situation ya'll are talking about is called Morton's foot:


Morton's foot

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: GUEST,Wover
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 06:15 PM

After furder cyentific reeserch on the net I found this "corn-dition" (probably why they call it Corn-ish toes)was also called Morton Toe.

Morton's foot is characterized by the second toe being longer than the big toe. The problem is that the bone behind the big toe (first metatarsal) is too short. This inherited trait occurs in about 25 percent of the population and causes problems in more people than the other two foot abnormalities combined.

So using stughtisticks, 25 % of ya'll Cornishers have a pare of Morton Toes.

If you have Cornish Toes does that mean you are prone to Cornish Hens? And are your beeves likely to be Corned beef?

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Joybell
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 06:17 PM

Great article, Jeanie, thanks. Interesting about the Roman little toes. Mine are almost non existant. Animaterra and the other Irish cousins, Saint Piran for one made the crossing from Ireland to Cornwall. Of course he was forced to by Irish nasties. He floated on a mill-stone that they tied around his neck. As my ancestors were Cornish millers and also Cornish sailors. ("Semmens" from Sea-men) I feel quite close to Saint Piran. The other Cornish family of mine were miners. The name they sent down the ages for us was "Bolitho" which is Cornish for "Big Belly". Great!!
Very wise of your people, Little Robyn, they probably heard about the plans for the freeway. Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 07:27 PM

We Irish claim the Cornish as cousins. I have deep suspicions about St Piran; for a start, if that millstone floated, he had clearly been drinking.

And I have teenshy triangular little-toes as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Gurney
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 07:35 PM

Yup, Cornish feet here, too. No known Cornish ancestry (Derbyshire/Wawickshire/Leicestershire) but I have an Irish sense of humour.

Saves trying on new shoes for fit. Put 'em side-by-side, and if the two toes don't make a circle, they don't fit.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Joybell
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 08:41 PM

Yes Wover, I mentioned Morton's syndrome at the start of this thread, but I understand that the point of the findings on Cornish feet was that MORE than the expected number of Cornish toes showed the longer second toe - even in people WITHOUT Morton's syndrome. For the record my transverse arches,like Animaterra's, are normal but my second toes are longer than my big toes. My first cousin, several members of my extended family, my kids and two of my grandchildren all show the same effect. Their tranverse arches are normal too.
I'm off to the biggest Cornish Festival (outside Cornwall itself) in a few weeks. I'll check on Morton's syndrome verses normal arches in the Cousin Jacks and Jennys there. Might even get The Grand Bard to take off his shoes at the picnic.
Cousin JTT some say it was a round peppermint rock - clearly a "Life-saver"

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 08:47 PM

Looking at the pictures of "Morton's Foot" it appears to be a condition where the big toe is too short, rather than the next is too long. i.e. the big toe would also be shorter than the middle toe, and possibly also than the fourth toe.
It appears we may have more than one syndrome here

Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: GUEST,Wover
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 08:57 PM

Morton's Syndrone is a nerve problem among the metatarsal bones of the foot. Dr. Morton had a lot of foot problems named after him.


Morton's Syndrone different than Morton's Foot or toe

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: GUEST,Wover
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 09:07 PM

Symantics! The terms are used interchageably.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Joybell
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 09:18 PM

Did the good doctor come from a place called Moor-town? The Cornish moors? Was he a Cornishman? He's one of us? Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: GUEST,Wover
Date: 01 Feb 04 - 09:48 PM

Nope, he was an American surgeon.

The sequence was first described by Lewis Durlacher in 1845. The term Morton's neuralgia was introduced by Ph. Lewin in 1876. Not to be confused with Morton's syndrome, which is another entity named for the American orthopaedic surgeon Dudley J. Morton (1884-1960). Thomas George Morton's observations were confirmed by his son, Thomas S. K. Morton, in 1892.


Morton's neuralgia (Thomas George Morton)
Also known as:
Morton's foot
Morton's disease
Morton's metatarsalgia
Morton's nerve entrapment
Morton's neuroma
Morton's syndrome

(but no mention of Morton's (long 2nd) Toe!

Morton at whonamedit

Also Here

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Joybell
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 01:37 AM

Thanks Wover. About covers the good doctors Morton except for their own feet. Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Little Robyn
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 05:26 AM

Keith, mainly they were farmers but the one who lived most of his life in Padstow (my gr,gr,gr,grandfather) was also a school teacher and a stone cutter. In fact, many of the 19thC slate headstones in St Petroc's are signed PT or P Trescowthick. The families who came to NZ in 1856 were involved in building and the old schoolhouse in Little Petherick was reputed to have been built by another 3xgr.grandfather, John Henwood.
My ancestors have been kiwis for almost 150 years but my heart is in Cornwall - and my feet too, it seems!
Robyn

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Ella who is Sooze
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 08:08 AM

me too... I've got one of them there toes (ok I've got two of em)...

No Cornish in our family as I can think of... French Hugenot, Irish, Welsh, English and Spanish... but no Cornish... though some ancestors were sea faring (2pirates and one cosher pirate - a commodore in the Navy)...

Will present this to a family member - wot I found on the internet - my long lost 3rd cousin and see what he thinks!

Mish mash Ella

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: GUEST,Whizz
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 05:43 PM

Now i am from Cornwall, and my first and second toes are the same length. Maybe it's because the Cornish blood has been watered down a bit with English??

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Joybell
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 06:07 PM

Little Robyn, We have families who were on similar paths, I think. My Cornish ancestors came to Australia in 1848 and others in the early 1850s. My mother's family settled in New Zealand in the late 1800s. They were from the English Midwest, though I think.
Hello Cousins Ella and Watered-down Whizz.
                                                Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 06:26 PM

I have very nicely proportioned Anglo Saxon toeses and they are not, as Moses erroneously supposes, posies of roses.

Feet and teeth are the things most likely continued in family lines so if your parents had flat feet and ingrowing toenails, or terrible teeth, it's likely you will too.

Ain't that nice to know.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Joybell
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 06:32 PM

It's the "Bolitho" (Big Belly) I don't care for. Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Rapparee
Date: 02 Feb 04 - 06:41 PM

Toes? You folks have toes? I have cloven hooves.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: LadyJean
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:56 AM

My second toe is longer than my first. I have very high insteps, and Irish has married Irish in my family for 200 years. ( Mostly I have some Swiss on my mother's side, and the Seaveys on my father's. Is Seavey Cornish?) The closest I come to Cornish ancestors is Mathias Ramage and his three sons. They were Hugenots, who left France in 1715. One of the Ramage brothers settled in Cornwall. My ancestor, Guillaume, wound up in BallyKelly, Ireland.

I was told in high school Latin class that if your second toe was longer than your big toe you were descended from Roman nobility.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:07 PM

Seavey is probably not Cornish - by the names Tre, Pol and Pen, thou shall know them as Cornishmen.

More likely it's an Anglicised French name.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:17 PM

I tried to find out, and took my shoes off. I was at work.

Seven people gagged and four more fainted. The local fire department sent the hazmat team.

Now I've been classified as a Top Secret Chemical Weapon and can't talk to nobody no more about nothing.

Phooey.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Cluin
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 02:28 PM

What does it mean if your big toe and second toe are the same length?

Other than the suggestion I should put my socks back on.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Sttaw Legend
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 02:30 PM

I think it only happens if you've worn Jesus sandles as a child.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Metchosin
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 05:02 PM

Well I didn't wear Jesus sandals as a child ( crippling stiff oxfords instead, that always gave me blisters under my ankle bones and until they were worn in). My second toe on my left foot is the same length as my big toe and the second on the right is a tiny bit shorter than my big toe and my third toe. I used to be teased by friends, as a teenager, that I had little kid's feet, so its kind of heartening to see my style foot as Scots/Irish.

Which is weird, because my foot shape is not shared by my maternal Scots/Irish side of the family, it comes from my paternal side, who were in in Clifton, Bedfordshire at least back into the 1700,'s if not before, who eventually met up with some Ruthenians and Magyars about 3 generations back. I wonder what shape of foot the Huns had?

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Rapparee
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 05:14 PM

The second toe being longer than the first (big) toe indicates that the person is a werewolf.

This is absolutely true, since I heard it from my Grandmother's best friend's gynecologist's aunt's neighbor's nephew.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Joybell
Date: 03 Feb 04 - 06:07 PM

Wow! That's great! I've always felt an afinity with Werewolves. The New-age leaves me yawning, but The Old-age! Another thing entirely.
I've just been thinking about another aspect of the Cornish-toed Bendigo Apollo (way up at the top of this thread) and I recall that he is being saved by what looks like a Kelpie wearing a collar. The doggy kind, not the mythological beastie. Perhaps, though, there is a Werewolf message somewhere in there. I love this statue, it has all kinds of conflicting ideas expressed in it. For one - the big cat attacking Apollo is not a male lion as you would expect but what looks like a lioness with balls. I can't find any reference to any other kind of big cat in connection with Apollo.
But I'm raving. Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 02:43 PM

There haven't been any wolves in Ireland since - oh, I think the last one was killed in Wicklow in the early 19th century, poor little mactire. So can i be a werefuiseog instead?

It occurs to me that I was once shown a bunch of Renaissance pictures of people with bare feet and it was pointed out that the feet had a big toe that was almost like an opposable thumb. This, my informant said, was because the models were working girls and boys, who had gone barefoot all their lives.

I wonder whether those of us with longer second toes might have been encouraged to go barefoot as children, and so have got grippy, muscular toes; maybe it's more a question of posture than actual size?

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:03 PM

Pendulous earlobes, anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:08 PM

Can't speak for the others but I didn't go barefoot much as a child - we city kids didn't. The members of the Cornish Association here in Victoria, Australia, where we compared feet - (see up this thread a way) were mostly city born and bred. There was a group of about 100 people present. Interesting idea, though. Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Cluin
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 05:23 PM

Yeah, and if your eyebrows met over your nose (the unibrow) you were a werewolf too. And hairy palms. Too much rubbing-off leads to lycanthropy.

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 07:39 PM

Unibrow - I like it!!

I know a boy who had the misfortune to be utterly gorgeous except he has a unibrow - a straight furry line across his head. Makes him look like he's frowning all the time.

I've worn sandals almost all year round for over 20 years now. It's resulted in me getting feet shape feet, rather than shoe shaped feet, but it's made no difference to the shape of my toes.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 07:49 PM

There's an old bit of folklore that women with longer second toes are more passionate, and make better lovers... I'll go now...

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Cornish toes? Take your shoes off
From: Joybell
Date: 04 Feb 04 - 08:01 PM

Of course we are, Robin, but Ladylike constraint prevented me from mentioning it. The Cornish Festival coming up in Victoria will allow plenty of chances for reseach into all things Cornish. Will you be making the trip Robin?