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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Liam's Brother Date: 04 Feb 04 - 07:08 PM Martin and Malcolm... Deirdre's version comes from a lady who lives in or just outside her town, Neanagh. The name Nora Butler springs to mind. I hope that's not wrong. My recollection of the conversation with Tom Munnelly is that "The Leaving of Limerick (or Ireland)" has been heard 4 times in Ireland. Three times in Munster (Tipperary once, Cork twice) and once at Malin Head where Martin and I will be in a few weeks time. The Malin Head version was never written down. The others were. See you there Martin. All the best to you and Josephine. Dan |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Melani Date: 04 Feb 04 - 01:31 PM Right, Chanteyranger. The one at Mystic is a bad copy of our original. Though I'm told Mystic is rather put out by our having the original, since the ship was actually built there. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,Chanteyranger Date: 04 Feb 04 - 11:39 AM BTW, the figurehead of the Davy Crockett is on exhibit in the museum at the park where I work, San Francisco Maritime National Historical Park. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Steve Parkes Date: 04 Feb 04 - 04:36 AM The verse Now the tug is waiting at the Pierhead To take us down the stream, Our sails are loosed and our anchor[']s stowed, So I'll say fare thee well again. doesn't sound as though it quite fits; it doesn't sound I've always liked it sung rather slow and sad, like a real farewell for a two-year trip would be. It's a very good finishing-off song, especially as an encore to a more lively song. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 04 Feb 04 - 04:34 AM Malcolm Deirdre Scanlon's recording is the only one I know of. I have a copy (somewhere) but, if memory serves, she gives little detail on source - and doesn't print the lyrics. Like you, I would trust Tommy Munnelly's comments. If I can find his current email address, I'll drop him a note. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Little Robyn Date: 04 Feb 04 - 12:29 AM I've just refreshed the thread on Bob Dylan's version Robyn |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Liam's Brother Date: 03 Feb 04 - 11:21 PM William Main Doerflinger recorded "The Leaving of Liverpool" from two sailors, both in New York City. Dick Maitland's version is the one in Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman as Malcolm points out above. The second version was from Patrick Tayleur and that has not been published. Captain Tayleur's version is very much free form and indicates to me that, possibly, he never actually sang the song himself but heard others do so. He knew the story line but not the actual poetry of it. When I asked Bill about it, he simply said Captain Tayleur did not sing "The Leaving of Liverpool." Bill was a very kind, courtly man. I did not press him but I believe he was telling me that Captain Tayleur did not have a real grasp on the song and it was a matter not worth pursuing. To the best of my knowledge, Ewan MacColl was the first person to record "The Leaving of Liverpool" commercially. That's where I first heard it. It's a very nice rendition, slow and soulful. Lou Killen was one of the chorus singers at that session. Lou took up the song and he believes that Luke Kelly of the Dubliners, who was living in England at the time, probably heard it from him. Luke undoubtedly brought it to the Dubliners and the Clancy Brothers probably got it from them. Along the way, everything started to rhyme and "My darling when I think on you" became "My darling when I think on thee." Bob Conroy and I were guests at the Aonach Paddy O'Brien a few years back and sang "The Leaving of Liverpool" at a session. George Henderson, whose thoughts grace the Mudcat from time-to-time, was the moderator and asked Deirdre Scanlan to sing "The Leaving of Limerick" next. The melodies are very, very close and a number of similar themes occur in both songs. When I asked him later, Tom Munnelly told me that, like "The Leaving of Liverpool," "The Leaving of Limerick" (or "The Leaving of Ireland" as it's also known) is a very rare song. One sprang from the other. Bill Doerflinger was a lovely and very interesting man. You can read about him at Bill Doerflinger tribute. I sang "The Leaving of Liverpool" at Bill's memorial service. All the best, Dan Milner |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Blowzabella Date: 03 Feb 04 - 07:10 PM More than one Gareth, but I'm sure there are many more expert than me to give detail (I'm a fan but not an expert - not enough to put anything on the page) |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Gareth Date: 03 Feb 04 - 07:04 PM Hmmmm ! It all depends upon how it is sung The Spinners version, a rollicking pub/concert version as a love song. Other versions (I had a good tape untill some B****d torched my car) a contemplative ballad. Fact to be bourne in mind. The only hard and fast rule on ships names was only one name per port of registry thus we could have the "Davey Crocket" of New York, and the "Davey Crocket" of say Mobile. Scond fact. In the days when I had a free run of the Lloyds of London libuary and records section have now long gone. I am working from memory but the commercial life of a wooden hull was not that long. The 'Perils of the Sea', decay, wear and tear, and commercial reality saw to that. It is very possible that here were more than one "Davey Crocket" on the transatlantic run. Again from Memory the "Black Ball Line" existed. It is also worth holding in mind that many an Irishperson left for the 'New World' via Liverpool. I do not believe that Liverpool and Limerick were not interchangeble. Just the thoughts of a dilitante nautical historian Gareth PS On the Davey Crocket theme is there not a chanty involving Santa Anna ??? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: GUEST,Dolphin Date: 03 Feb 04 - 06:54 PM FACT The Leaving of Liverpool was collected by William Doerflinger from an old sailor who was a resident at Snug Harbor Staten Island New York. The is documentary evidence there to support this!!!! |
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Subject: Lyr Add: THE LEAVING OF LIVERPOOL (from Hugill) From: Lighter Date: 03 Feb 04 - 06:52 PM Stan Hugill published his version of the song in his last book, "Songs of the Sea" (1977)(all spellings sic): ^^ THE LEAVING OF LIVERPOOL (from Hugill) Fare-ye-well the Princess Landing Stage, River Mersey fare-ye-well. I am bound to Californaye-a. It's a place I know right well. CHO: So fare-ye-well, my own true love, When I return united we will be. It's not the leaving of Liverpool that grieves me, But me darling when I thinks of ye. I'm bound to California, By way of ol' Cape Horn, An' I bet that I will curse the day An' the hour that I was born. I've shipped in a Yankee clipper ship, Davy Crockett is her name. Captain Burgess he is tough, me lads, And the mate he's just the same. 'Tis me second passage with ol' Burgess, An' I think I knows him well. If a man's a sailor, he can get along, But if not, he's sure in hell. Fare-ye-well to Lower Frederick Street, Anson Place, and Parkee Lane. 'Tis a long, long time, me bucko boys, Ere I see you again. So fare-ye-well my own true love, Goodbye, my love, goodbye. 'Twill be a long, long time, my dear, But my darlin', don't ye cry. Hugill's tune is virtually identical to Maitland's, as printed by Doerflinger. Of the song itself, Hugill states merely that Maitland's was "the first version to be printed." There is no way to tell whether Hugill heard this somewhat modified and shortened text at sea, or whether - perhaps more likely - it was simply his own adaptation of what he saw in Doerflinger. BTW, versions containing the stanza beginning, "The sun is on the harbour, love..." appear to have originated with the Clancy Bros. and Tommy Makem, ca.1963. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 03 Feb 04 - 06:38 PM Why a separate thread? This is the place to put it, surely? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Lighter Date: 03 Feb 04 - 06:29 PM Does anybody know for certain what Swain's source was? Hugill prints a version in his "Songs of the Sea." I'll put the words it in a separate thread right now. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 03 Feb 04 - 06:26 PM So what was that second source? Do you recall details? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: dick greenhaus Date: 03 Feb 04 - 05:38 PM Like Rivers of Texas, Leaving of Liverpool is, for all purposes, a single-source song. There was a second source, for a somewhat different version, which Dick Swain played at a symposium at Mystic Sea Music Week a couple of years back, but everything any sings seems to be a re-working of Maitland's song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Feb 04 - 05:30 PM That's rather what I guessed, without hearing it. Changing the speed and the mood of a tune can easily make people think it's a wholly different tune. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Herga Kitty Date: 03 Feb 04 - 03:21 PM Ringer Yes, John Prentice does a lovely slow ballad version, and it's on his CD, the King's Shilling, but the melody is actually a harmony of the generally known tune. Kitty |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 03 Feb 04 - 03:09 PM I'd normally be quite dubious about claims for an Irish antecedent for a song like The Leaving of Liverpool (mainly on the grounds that people are always saying things like that, but rarely seem able to back it up), but, according to Dan Milner, the suggestion came from Tom Munnelly, who I'd expect to be reliable on that sort of thing. I've never seen or heard The Leaving of Limerick, though. Is anyone able to quote it? Any reference to a traditional source would be useful, too; revival recordings may be of little help unless they provide substantive information. I know that Deirdre Scanlan, for example, has recorded a song of that title; but does she say anything about it? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: alanww Date: 03 Feb 04 - 02:20 PM Q: I didn't say that the Crocket was lost in 1874, only that Burgess was lost overboard in that year. I have no info on what the fate of Crocket was, except that it made many trips from Liverpool to New York and then on to San Fransisco and back, which apparently took around 261 days each way! "And they say she's a floating shame!" Alan |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: DonMeixner Date: 03 Feb 04 - 02:13 PM I am aquainted with the family of John Burgess, the Captain of the Davy Crockett. I have seen the double lock dispatch box from the ship, several boarding passes and bills of laden from this ship. My friend Berta has significant documentation and artifacts from the ship itself. If any one who is interested will email me I'll be speaking to her this very afternoon and ask her if she would share any of this history outside the family. Don Meixner |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: the lemonade lady Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:53 PM I always sing this in my head every time I have to leave Liverpool, and my Schantieman, and get on the train at Lime Street to go back to Bishop's Castle. (Actually the nearest station to BC is Craven Arms) 8-( Sal |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:50 PM Two dates for the loss of the Davy Crockett, 1874 and 1899, at the same museum! Not that this has any bearing on the timing of the song's origin, except that the lyrics are post-1853. Not mentioned in either of the two books I have by Hugill. I have a feeling that Brakn may be at least partly correct- The Burgess-Davy Crockett lines added by someone after seeing material at Mystic. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Little Robyn Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:44 PM Before we ever heard the Liverpool Spinners, I was singing the Bob Dylan modified version which is much more sentimental. Thank you Mr Zimmerman. Robyn |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:37 PM John Burgess...lost his life overboard..." In the light of the verse below (which isn't the one in the DT, but I think I've heard it more often), the question occurs, "Did he fall, or was he pushed?": "I have signed on a Yankee Clipper ship Davy Crockett is her name And Burgess is the Captain of her, He's a bastard, and the Mate's the same. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:26 PM A little more in thread 17920, and chords. Leaving Liverpool The hull plan of the clipper Davy Crockett is at American Memory (Item 20, Search "Liverpool"). Notes say "Hull plans for the ship Davy Crockett. Lines drawn by Edson I. Schock from a model by Carl C. Culter." The plan is at Mystic Seaport and is part of "Westward By Sea." Not sure how it ties in, but the same notes say: "The Comet was a clipper ship built by George Greenman and Co. in 1853. She often sailed on the New York to San Francisco run but also made several voyages to Liverpool. Lost in 1899." Were the two ships built to the same hull, or was the Comet re-named? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: alanww Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:15 PM When I was in Mystic Seaport last October I looked up some info on the Crocket in their museum. Apparently it was lauched there on 18 October 1853 and John Burgess, who as Malcolm says was the captain, lost his life overboard off the River Plate on his last journey before retirement on 25 June 1874. Now that's tough luck! Any more useless facts, anyone? "And Burgess is the captain of her ...!" Alan |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: JedMarum Date: 03 Feb 04 - 01:11 PM I don;t know if the Tucson folks have a recording. I don't remember who they are. When I played with Eammons Kitchen we had an up tempo, blue-grassy groove to the song - and it worked well for us. I've heard Danny Doyle do a lovely, soulful version of the song - on a live recording he made at O'Flaherty's in New Orleans. The whole record is wonderful, by the way. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Brakn Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:55 PM Awhile back, in Liverpool, someone told me this was originally called the Leaving of Limerick. I will find out more. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:55 PM "... the tune is more redolent of a tanked-up coachload of Rugby supporters." Only because that's the way people sing it. The tune can perfectly well be sung meditatively, to match the words, and, done that way, it matches them very well. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Steve in Idaho Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:45 PM Hey Jed - they have a CD or tape with their version of it?? My little group does it bluegrassy, well I do anyway, but would love to hear their version - and we do tend to move the song along - Thanks steve |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: JedMarum Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:38 PM I heard a great , ripping, blue grass version of this song last year at the Tucson Folk Festival. The words/story had been Americanized, the band gave no explanation in their intro - and I suspect they had no idea where it came from. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Ringer Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:30 PM I've always thought that the words and the tune were ill-matched. This is the song of a sailor leaving his girl and his home, but the tune is more redolent of a tanked-up coachload of Rugby supporters. I was delighted to find recently that John Prentice evidently agrees with me, because he sings it to a beautiful new tune of his own which is beautifully well-matched to the longing that can be heard in the words. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 03 Feb 04 - 12:02 PM It seems that only one example of the song was ever recorded from tradition, with all modern forms deriving from that. It was published in Doerflinger's Songs of the Sailor and Lumberman (1951); he got it from an American, Dick Maitland, who, while bosun on the General Knox around 1885, had learned it one night from a Liverpool man. The song rapidly became popular with revival singers. Roy Palmer (Boxing the Compass, 2001) gives Burgess' captaincy of the Davy Crockett as 1863 to 1874, and reasons that the song dates from that period or a little after. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Leadfingers Date: 03 Feb 04 - 11:52 AM Isnt this another 'Traditional' song that was actually written ( or possibly ) assembled by the Liverpool Spinners ? |
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Subject: Origins: Leaving of Liverpool From: Steve Parkes Date: 03 Feb 04 - 11:37 AM There doesn't seem to be much variation in versions of the lyric in my experience, and a web search doesn't contradict that. Does this suggest it was originally a published song, by a known author, rather than a traditional anonymous song? There was a ship Davy Crockett, and the figurehead still exists in a museum in the US; I dare say there was a Captain Burgess too, which would date the song fairly accurately -- or at least give an earliest date. Any more info? |
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