Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 07:07 PM

A young Muso on stage wearing a "Fuck You" T-shirt? Maybe he missed the Punk Bandwagon...

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 06:49 PM

well, in a perverse way, I find it useful that some folks wear t-shirts with 'messages'--I do too, sometimes...Since they choose their shirts to reflect and/or express what they feel or think is funny, it allows me to decide whether or not to go near them!

I am not sure what a necrophiliac slogan is supposed to express---if it's just that they have found what they consider a funny way to shock, then I am simply not amused. I would imagine that one of their problems is that most 'live' girls who meet them DO say 'no'.... If the local law allows them to wear that in public, all I can do is vote, as has been pointed out, with my feet and pocketbook.

Words are NOT just words--history is full of examples, and T-shirts with words are a statement.

I am reminded of the "1st Law of Hitch-Hiking" "Look like who you want to pick you up"

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 06:39 PM

Everybody has a right to dress, and sing, and perform in any manner that's legal. What everybody doesn't have is the right to a paying audience.

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Nemesis
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 06:25 PM

Okay, Clinton,

Consider a T Shirt worn, say, 6 blocks down from Ground Zero

Illustration: (plane flying into two towers) and caption something like "AL Quaeda 2,976, Twin Towers Nil ... Party on Dudes!!!

Or, outside the Spanish Embassy: "201 Waiter vacancies in Spain .. apply now"

I dunno .. okay, they're dumb - maybe you can think of something worse than that .. I can't imagine, but you get the idea?

Offensive? But, then again, I live in a dull world.

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 06:07 PM

Wardrobe Failures during Folk Music

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: el ted
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:24 PM

I like to wear a suit of armour but it makes it bloody hard to play my guitar with chain mail gloves on.

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: GUEST,Peter A
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:13 PM

easy; In my opinion dress codes are similar to other ways of communicating, they try to tell something. If the way you dress is too out of phase with most of the audience you have a communication problem. It's like stuttering. Your message can be the most sophisticated but to some people the stuttering attracts the most attention and they fail to take your message. One have to decide; what is the most important, your song/music or your way of dressing. Are you on the stage or the catwalk?

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:34 AM

Wow... I'm glad I don't live in a lot of your worlds...

How dull they must be...

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: tempora
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 10:55 AM

I recognize the need for art that 'brings people out of their comfort zones', & I tend to be sympathetic towards this objective of art. However, I think the issue here is to what extent artists should be allowed to go.

Artists are still humans & they're expected to behave as any decent human should. While it's commendable to take that courageous step of 'shocking' people, 'art' is not a good reason for behaving in an inhumane or indecent manner. You can't physically abuse someone, then claim it was in the interests of art.

'Art' is important, but so are many other things. The feelings of the people in the audience for one. To have such a traumatic incident in the family - how can you justify anything that could bring greater hurt to those who knew the victim? The situation is different from wearing a provocative shirt in public that has the potential to offend. I'm betting that the artist here KNEW about the case & KNEW there was a high chance that there were people in the audience who might have a personal connection to the case.

It is important for artists to be given the liberty to express themselves and pursue their art. BUT artists should not be exempt from the common, basic standards of human behaviour.

Elaine

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: GUEST,Jim Knowledge
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 11:28 AM

I `ad that Paul Simon in my cab the other night. `e `ad a t-shirt on with "ART" written on the front. I said is that in respect of that Garfunkel? `e said, Nah, it`s to shock people. I said it don`t do much to me!!
What am I like?

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Peace
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 12:39 AM

Aesthetics? You ain't SEEN my legs.

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 16 Mar 04 - 12:00 AM

I don't think it has anything to do with T-shirts at all, but aesthetics. As we come into the hot summer season of festivals, I would ask persons of an obese disposition, no matter how comfortable and cool (temperature wise as opposed to hep) it makes you feel, please do not wears short pants on stage.

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Peace
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 09:37 PM

FUCK YOU isn't art. FuCk YoU isn't either. Keeriste, if anything can be art, let's have songs that all end moon, spoon, June. Someone said the intent of art is to shock. So too is it a friggin' bomb's intent to shock. That don't make it art.

I don't really give a tinker's damn who wears what, but if I have paid for the privilege and I get a surprise I don't like, I then get my money back, leave, and do not return.

In my house it's my rules. That's that. Take off your hat at the door, don't spit on the floor, don't pee in the ashtrays (OK, I bend that one a little), and don't kick the dog--I'll do that.

This 'in your face' shit that happens should respect people's 'personal space'. There, that ought to piss off a few people. I haven't done that for a while. Trollin' today I guess.

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: kendall
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:47 PM

Twist it and spin it all you want, filth is not and never will be art.
I was raised in a society where most people respected each other, now we live in a cage of rats wher the animals don't respect anyone, including themselves. Sad.
Mediocrity knows nothing higher than itself.

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:21 PM

GUEST Late Again said, in part:


Seems to me that the offensive thing was the murder--and the T-shirt wearer managed to draw attention back to this murder, for a moment at least.

But the flaunting of that line on the T-shirt is not just bringing attention back to the event; it's by implication approving and adopting the event as the wearer's, implying that the event is appropriate for humor.   My take on it, anyway.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:19 PM

Wow.
If you censor all art that is capable of causing offence you do art a disservice. I don't advocate censorship at all. Never have, don't expect I ever will. IRRELEVANT

If you do not censor it but withdraw then you likely do yourself a disservice. Very possibly. But it's my time and my money and my sensibilities.

If enough withdraw, and you have a capitalist system without art subsidy, both art and the audience lose. I hope not all art is about monetary reward. Certainly not. But performing is.
The audience doesn't lose if the entertainer fails to entertain, which is why they're voting with their pocketbooks.

But conversely Dylan took up guitar because without it people would not listen to his poetry. I wonder if he was right or ought to have paid someone else to sing and play it in stead? Obviously he was right--enough people bought his act to make is phenomenally successful. Dylan is a fine example of what I mean--I personally have always found the hokey Oakie delivery off-putting, and I don't bother with his performances. Am I a loser? I don't think so. Has art suffered because of my taste (or lack of same)? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: GUEST,DAMON
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:10 PM

Nemesis,
As regards your initial question, it certainly does matter! FD mentioned respect and decency earlier and I've got to agree with him...it's clear the individual you mention seeing at local gigs has neither decency nor respect for the suffering of Jane Longhursts' family or friends, or indeed for that of Graham Coutts'.

I'd be interested to know what sort of material this person was performing on stage... and besides, why would a performer need to use a T-shirt to convey a message in the first place...??

Cheers

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:05 PM

EVERTHING has the "Potential for Offense"...

So what? We should stop doing anything???

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 07:01 PM

Nemesis--

I note that your concern is for the "Potential for Offense"--have you considered the "Potential for Offense" in confronting a stranger because you don't like their T-Shirt?

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:54 PM

"this is the first time I have agreed with Clintion Hammond!"

All eventually, come over to the dark side...

:-)

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Nemesis
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:34 PM

Dear Richard,

Just to reiterate the point Cllr was gently making .. the T-shirt wearer was performing a few miles away from this murder, among an audience potentially containing other local people who potentially know both victim and perpetrator.

And I could hardly reccommend the (regular) event to the (local) prosecution witness (and friend) whose olfactory senses directed the police towards forensic evidence (that was found to include used condoms).

Would you Richard?

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 03:11 PM

On the other hand Dick, there is a strong hint in your stance of her majesty not being amused. If you censor all art that is capable of causing offence you do art a disservice. If you do not censor it but withdraw then you likely do yourself a disservice. If enough withdraw, and you have a capitalist system without art subsidy, both art and the audience lose. I hope not all art is about monetary reward.

But conversely Dylan took up guitar because without it people would not listen to his poetry. I wonder if he was right or ought to have paid someone else to sing and play it in stead?

And what about great comedians like Lenny Bruce?

I hate to quote George Michael, but "listen without prejudice".

If a folk club turns out to be country, I rarely leave and usually listen to the whole evening, in case there is something I like.

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 02:06 PM

Aw, c'mon folks. Certainly a performer (artist or not) can do anything s/he wants to. As can a (prospective) audience. THis isn't a question of rights, but rather one of "if you don't please me I don't want to reward you." Overly inappropriate performers wind up not performing.

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: GUEST,Late Again
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 01:01 PM

Thread has gone off topic, but I'll throw my two cents in anyway.

Seems to me that the offensive thing was the murder--and the T-shirt wearer managed to draw attention back to this murder, for a moment at least. Even better, the T-shirt wearer managed to stimulate a discussion that spans continents. I'd say that this is a victory for art, for the artist, and most important, for the victim, because it keeps her story alive--

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: GUEST,Late Again
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 12:50 PM

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 11:09 AM

Alison - As a frequent naturist, I'd be more worried about wearing something sutable for St Pat's night than the actual nudity. Why not make three large shamrock leaves to attach to the suitable places on a bikini (green if you have one that colour) ? If you don't mind being a bit more daring - how about using body-paint for the shamrocks. Alternatively wear a black leotard with a frothy white top and say you're a pint of Guiness !

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: alison
Date: 15 Mar 04 - 05:23 AM

well the boys can hide behind guitars, banjos, bodhrans etc.... I on the other hand am a whistle and accordion player...... admittedly we don't have to go completely nude... but they would like us to be a bit nude.....

I reckon we all go topless with a few shamrock pasties... the boys are OK with this (actually its been them who have been more worried!!) and green undies behind the instruments... we'll see...

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 11:02 PM

Or stand-up bass. Imagine pluckin' the string closest to, well, I don't really want to peruse this--sorry, pursue this any further. I'll leave now.

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: JennieG
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 10:20 PM

Alison,

You'll have to be very careful if you play squeezebox won't you.....

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 09:45 PM

You ain't seen my legs!

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: GUEST,Singout/Penny
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 07:05 PM

Nevermind slogans on t-shirts. I always appreciate a performer who goes to the trouble to wear something other than a t-shirt and shorts or wornout jeans. To me it show appreciation to the audience for being there.

Penny

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 04:34 PM

And I'll bite: what has the second amendment to do with the first?

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 04:32 PM

You know what? As far as I readily remember this is the first time I have agreed with Clintion Hammond!

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Peace
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 03:29 PM

Friend was playing at a nudist colony years ago. He was a guitar player. He tripped while shooting a few rounds of golf, and another golfer stepped on his 'you know'. He was rushed to emergency where the attending physician said he'd have to call in a recorder player. My friend asked why. The doctor said, "You'll have to learn to finger that when you're taking a pee, otherwise you'll piss all over yourself.

Good luck.

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Celtaddict
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 02:41 PM

Alison, a friend accepted a gig at a "family campground" before he realized it was a nudist colony, and told me he was never so glad he plays a guitar and not a flute!
However, from a variety of musicians, I have never heard of a naturist (evidently the currently preferred term for clothing-optional) venue that did not permit visiting performers to dress or not as they see fit. You might check the official information; you may have been misinformed. Naturally such places do not want folks to come just to gawk, so many do not allow guest participants who choose to stay clothed, but a hired performer generally does fall into rather a different category.
Seamus Kennedy has some good tales from playing unclothed venues (in shorts behind his guitar I believe).

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: GUEST,Van Gough
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 02:29 PM

Go for it Mr Bridge if ever I'm in troubled waters I'll look for you ;-)

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Maurice Mann
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 01:29 PM

I suppose the First amendment was the reason for the Second amandment

MM

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: The Unicorn Man
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 01:29 PM

I wear T Shirts were ever I go. Playing or not playing. And if I can think of a funny slogen or a point I want to make I get it printed on the back. The T shirts are high quality tye dye this however doubles the price of the T Shirt, but it does work for me. Why only last Towersey Festival 2003 I was sporting a T Shirt with a wizard on it standing on a cliff edge and shouting into the howling wind which said "I am very philosophical. Life is too short for wasting on arse-holes" This caused more people to laugh and taik to me than I have ever known. It makes people laugh and it is good advice.

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Amos
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 01:05 PM

Roll in white glue and shamrocks.

And don't give Mick the schedule!!


A

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: freightdawg
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 12:25 PM

Alison,

How about a really big guitar??

I guess if you play harmonica you're out of luck.

;-)

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 11:48 AM

"I think it's funny how over time what is/isn't offensive changes"

That's sorta the whole point of the album "Too Old To Rock 'n' Roll: Too Young To Die"

:-)

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Fiona
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 11:37 AM

I think it's funny how over time what is/isn't offensive changes. Some thirty years ago I remember my father turning off the TV when Jethro Tull was playing because he found Ian Andersons unkempt appearance so offensive.

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 05:29 AM

The musucian has every right to wear the tshirt. Any member of the audience who is offended has as much right in my view to kick the shit out of him.

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 14 Mar 04 - 05:05 AM

Subject: RE: Performance: (in)appropriate dress codes?
From: matai
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 10:37 PM

Actually > (New Zealand slang), no one gets it...it's spelt queynt and it is only since modern day man/woman has vulgarized it and misused it that it is no longer allowed to be spelt out in public forums.
Matai

Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 07:27 PM

c**t? The female coat? I don't get it.

Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Joybell
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 07:22 PM

Well I'm intrigued by the post by Malcolm Douglas about the people in conventional clothes and "funny little woolly hats". Are they an English type? Does the American constitution have anything to say about them? I don't think we have them here. Joy

Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes?
From: alison
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 07:11 PM

I have a completely different problem... I'm playing in a nudist colony next week (clothes not optional).... what the hell do I wear?
Its a St Pat's night gig - only stipulation being you have to wear somthing green? eye shadow?

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 06:48 PM

This is getting interesting. I guess not many people here rate Annie Sprinkle as an artist (the subject of my daughter's degree thesis and so of some interest to me). But I've been dabbling with censorship issues ever since defending some of the early UK "video nasties" - most of which are now regarded as fairly non-shocking.

I think I might leave it a bit before coming back.

But permit me to but three buts.

First, please don't misrepresent what I say.

The US constitution not only affects government, but also for example by and large prevents injunctions in the US to restrain defamatory statements - and has relatively recently been used to decide on policy grounds not to enforce a UK libel money judgment. So it may not be such a red herring.

Finally for this posting, without going too far down the feminist road, why is it insulting to call someone a twat (or equivalent)? It is a convention that needs some examination. I'm not sure if the expression is meaningful in the USA, but in the UK it is a vulgar expression for the female pudendum, regarded for some reason as less offensive than the usual "c**t" (to adhere to local censorship convention since breaking it at this moment will not enhance the debate).

Subject: RE: Performance:(in)appropriate dress codes?
From: Peace
Date: 13 Mar 04 - 02:52 PM

Frankly, I don't care what people wear on stage or even if they do. But, if I feel personally insulted, I'll leave. CH is right: fuck 'em if they can't take a joke. But, some people just got no sense of humour. I may be one of 'em. Life is a simple thing. Don't complicte mine and I won't return the favour.