BS: Kerry and world leaders

Subject: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: DougR
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 12:48 PM

Why isn't it reasonable to expect John Kerry to reveal the names of world leaders he has spoken to who have assured him that they back his bid to unseat George W. Bush as President of the U.S.?

Or perhaps you, as I, think that he should.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 01:06 PM

In a political world I don't think that's gonna happen Doug. They may or may not wish for Kerry to replace Bush, but ya dance with the partner that brung ya unless he's cold cocked on the dance floor. . . ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 01:12 PM

What?! And get their countries put on his Axis of Evil list?

This administration has a habit of retaliating against people who don't play ball with them. Think France and Germany, who coincidentally are probably the very people that support Kerry.

I guess Kerry should tell them when Cheney tells us who was on the energy policy board.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Strick
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 01:15 PM

Kerry was probably speaking the truth when he said that any support was offered in private and in confidence. No doubt foreign leaders would fear retaliation and it's incredibly bad form to be seen overtly trying to influence the free elections of another country. It so often backfires, too.

Of course by that logic, bringing the whole thing up was an unpardonable breach of confidence which says something as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: DougR
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 01:23 PM

Yes, Strick, I agree. I think it was a major blunder on Kerry's part. I understand why he does not want to reveal the names, but he opened the box.

As to the energy advisors, that will play out in the decision of the Supreme Court as to whether or not Cheney is obligated to reveal the names of those he sought advice from when forming the energy policy. It is a question of Executive Priviledge and has to do with the division of the three branches of government. Until the court decides, I don't believe Cheney is obligated to comply with the request.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Amos
Date: 19 Mar 04 - 02:53 PM

He probablt regrets bringing it up in the heat of th emoment. But he's free to say it or not. And I agree with CC that Cheney's revelations about the energy board would be a decent exchange. If he is not required (as a public official) to reveal information in candor, why should Kerry, still a private citizen?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: kendall
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 07:40 AM

I figure every one of the countries that stood against the war would back Kerry.

Speaking of the Supreme Court, I see Scalia has refused to recuse himself from the hearing in which his buddy, Cheney, is on the hot seat. Does this infuriate anyone besides me? The arrogance of these bastards is incredible!

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 08:02 AM

I think there are very few world leaders who would prefer to see Bush re-elected. All right, perhaps the odd crook like Berlusconi of Italy, and the President of Uzbekistan, where they boil political prisoners alive. And there'd be Sharon, and perhaps the guy just installed in Haiti. But aside from those you'd run out of names before you ran out of fingers.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Amos
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 08:52 AM

I read Scalia's letter declining recusal, and it is well-written, persuasive, and so on; but underneath the well-turned veneer, there is the smell of voracious self-service.
Kerry's doing the right thing.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 09:07 AM

I don't think its at all reasonable to expect him to reveal those names.

Of course he can't reveal them, no one is going to speak with him openly unless they're sure he gets in. diplomatically, its a big no no to deal with the opposition in any country.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Jasper22
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 12:42 PM

The Bush administration is not popular in the so called Old Europe. The U.S. anti old europe policies will be reversed with the republicans gone. Hurt feelings between countries will be quickly forgotten. Then the mysterious leaders that spoke to Senator Kerry will emerge.
If Bush is defeated the whole world will breath a huge sigh of relief. He is viewed as mad by many. If he should win we all better take that last banana boat to the coast

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Strick
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 03:28 PM

"I read Scalia's letter declining recusal, and it is well-written, persuasive, and so on; but underneath the well-turned veneer, there is the smell of voracious self-service."

The Supreme Court's always like that. I heard an interview on NPR with Justice Blackmun about his writing of the majority opinion on Roe v Wade. He wasn't embarrassed in the least that the Court decided what they wanted to do and then spent considerable time making up a justification for the opinion they could live with. That'll teach anyone who thought they were there to interpret what the Constitiution says.

Remember, like it or not, the law is all about winning, not being legally right.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 04:21 PM

The Bush administration is not popular in the so called Old Europe.

Not just there. Eastern Europe may have governments which have an instinct of trying to cosy up to Big Brother, which currently means the USA - but all the inducations are that, for example when it came to the Iraq war, they didn't have the backing of their people. (For example in Poland, ordinary people tended to agreed with the Pope. Even the ones who didn't agree with him on some other things.)

And don't for a moment think that the Blair government in the UK wants to see Bush elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: kendall
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 04:24 PM

I wish Europeans could vote in our next election

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 04:48 PM

We'll be very grateful to Americans who take our hopes into consideration.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Strick
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 04:50 PM

"We'll be very grateful to Americans who take our hopes into consideration."

Sorry, no representation without taxation. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 04:53 PM

No taxation? Well, they might not call it that, but an awful lot of our money ends up over there.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Strick
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 05:00 PM

And vice versa. I have some excellent Scotch and Irish whisky in the cabinet.

For that matter we typically hold the cost of maintaining US bases and peacekeeping troops against the accounts of European countries. The US is going to completely redeploy its forces world-wide sometime in the next few years, dramatically de-emphasising Europe. That should make both of us happy, having us leave you alone. We'll be that much less a threat to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 05:20 PM

In imagine that Iraq will have to pay for being garrisoned.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Strick
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 06:10 PM

Near as I can tell, the US wouldn't dare charge Iraq. It's politically and diplomatically unacceptable. That was more than apparent when the US tried to divert Iraqi oil profits to rebuilding the country.

Besides, surely the UN will be taking over most of the required peacekeeping mission soon. I hear that there are already more Iraqis acting as police, militia and other peacekeepers than there are Coalition troops in country. Add UN forces and I doubt there'll be much of a US presence long term.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: DougR
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 06:14 PM

One thing you can definitely count on liberal Mudcatters to be is fair and unbiased. :>)

Of course I DO admit to being a BIT biased myself.
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 07:03 PM

What's the difference betwen being biased and having an opinion? Does "bias" just mean that someone else has an opinion we don't agree with? Or is there more to it than that?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 04 - 09:04 PM

'biased' ought to mean having an opinion that is based on emotion, self-interest with no consideration for the general good, or just plain bad reasoning and bad data. That being said, we can all easily accuse the 'other' side of most of those, can't we?

It might make an interesting thread to ask just how two intelligent people can look at exactly the same information and come to opposite opinons! *wry grin*

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 06:16 AM

...how two intelligent people can look at exactly the same information and come to opposite opinons"

The reason is because they each also come with other information and experience and background which also influence them - in other words with "bias". There's nothing wrong with that, it'd be impossible to come to every situation with a blank mind, and it wouldn't be desirable either; but the other factors that enter into the judements we make should be disclosed, and the information etc available to be shared, and judged.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 10:18 AM

It was a stupid blunder on Kerry's part, and there will be more. Just like there have been stupid blunders from the Cheney campaign, and we'll see plenty more of those too.

Cheney/Shrub aren't all too popular in Latin America either. Or Canada. Or Mexico. I think it safe to say that he is pretty universally loathed by everyone except 1/3 of the American electorate that actually votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 12:56 PM

I suppose, if there's a blunder it would be that he has missed the point that, for a lot of voters the fact that most foreigners prefer Kerry to Bush would be a reason to vote for Bush. "No body likes us, everybody hates us", as Millwall "football fans" take pride in chanting.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: DougR
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 06:29 PM

GUEST: I'm sure you are aware that the vote for the American presidency is in no way associated with a popularity contest in Latin America or any other country for that matter. One does not have to be liked to be effective.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Mar 04 - 09:55 PM

I wonder how many actually LIKE Bush, and how many just want a continued Republican administration, no matter what kind of idiot they have to swallow to get one.

(you sort of supply the answer to my question, McGrath, but the 2nd part of your answer could provide the basis for that thread I mentioned..)

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:26 AM

I was looking over the current crop of articles on Kerry at Google NEws today and I am astonished to see what appears to be a well orchestrated smear-campaign, vitriolic and sarcastic and defamatory articles suddenly cropping up from scores of small papers like so many synchronized squeaking puppets. DUnno why it seems that way, but it was impressive; makes me want to see him win more than ever.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:42 AM

"I was looking over the current crop of articles on Kerry at Google NEws today and I am astonished to see what appears to be a well orchestrated smear-campaign, vitriolic and sarcastic and defamatory articles suddenly cropping up from scores of small papers like so many synchronized squeaking puppets."

What? How can we complain about the well orchestrated, vitriolic, sarcastic and defamatory smear-campaign that's been going on against Bush all these years if there's suddenly one against Kerry, too? There's no point of crying foul if both sides are doing it!

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 11:46 AM

Well, I think stating "Bush lied" is a statement of fact. But many of the artiocles I saw on Kerry are just overheated venom-coated opinions without a factual basis. Maybe I am biased, though! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Strick
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 12:15 PM

I'd have to agree with part of what you say.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 01:15 PM

When asked about his possible drug use the current pres. stated: "none of your business"

When asked whether or not people like enron helped craft the energy policy of this administration the administration answered "executive priviledge"

The Justice Dept. is gathering data to hedge up the new Anti-partial birth abortion law by ordering hospitals to turn over any records (including information on who performed them and why)

When Pres. Clinton claimed executive priviledge it was denied.

When Pres. Clinton was asked about his drug use he admitted to it with the caveat "I didn't inhale."

Yeah, I can see why the current administration thinks Kerry should reveal names. It only completes a pattern that Dems have to and Pubs don't.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: DougR
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 05:54 PM

Well, Amos, I wouldn't want to be a finger pointer, but ...bias is in the eye of the beholder I guess. Just a thought, Amos, but what if the accusations hurled at Kerry turn out to be true? Will you still support him? There's always Ralph Nader you know!

:>)
DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Mar 04 - 06:37 PM

"bias is in the eye of the beholder"

"Bias" - a term coming from the game of lawn bowls, with asymetric weighting - merely refers to the fact we come to every situation with some opinions based on previous experience. The problem, is when this is concealed - in fact, when it is not in the eye of the beholder, and we pretend that our judgements are purely based on what is out in the open.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: kendall
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 02:44 PM

If Kerry turns out to be as big a thief, liar, phoney and coward that Bush has proved to be, I will vote for Nader.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 03:55 PM

I haven't seen any evidence of it as of yet; he strikes me as haaving the necessary spine for the job and a modicum of integrity. If I turn out to be wrong, my vote may go elsewhere, but probably not for Nader.

And Dougie: if the rest of the accusation levied against your Son of Privelege turn out to be true, as the WMD charges did, what then for you?

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: kendall
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:28 PM

We should all write to our congress people and insist that he debate Kerry. Unless you republicans are afraid of that? I've already contacted my Senator and rep.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: DougR
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 04:33 PM

Kendall: there will be debates. We don't need eight months of debates though. We are all going to be sick enough of campaigning long before the election is over as it is...from both parties.

Amos: fair question. If Bush is found guilty of what he is being accused (though it might be reasonable to sort them out since he has been accused of so much)I would drop my support for him.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 05:48 PM

"We are all going to be sick enough of campaigning long before the election is over as it is...from both parties."

exactly why we need more debates. in that format the candidates are forced to address issues rather than just issue expensive negative ads that are nothing but misrepresentations of the other's record and smears. they all do it. we have an unprecedentedly long campaign ahead so why not have an unprecedented number of debates? i, for one, would be very interested and listen to them all. i don't listen to any political advertising because i know that's what it is- advertising not truth. i'd be very interested in hearing the candidates frequently in a forum where they have to use their intellect and oratorical skills to tell us what they plan to do in the future not just to criticize each other on how they voted on this or that issue 20 years ago. the thing that makes us sick is the drumbeat of lies and misrepresentation of the record. let's have them face each other a lot between now and november. i think a lot of americans who care about their government would agree.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Mar 04 - 06:26 PM

The BBC Question Time format works quite well - last time they weren't able to persuade the party leaders to sit down together before the same audiance, but sticking them on different night facing an equivalent audience, asking questions about anything they liked, (no prior notice), worked quite well.

Clicking on this gives you the latest programme, if you've got RealPlayer or something like that. No top politicians most weeks, but it gives the flavour. (You get to it from this page)

As for those so-called debates you've had in the States, in which the candidates stand up alongside each other and take turns to perform a highly coreographed dance - that just appears a total waste of time, and rather an insult to your voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 03:24 AM

Thanks for the history of the word 'bias'. Some new story to tell the students when they learn what in statistics an unbiased estimator is. (I love fields in which right or wrong is not in the eye of the beholder and all definitions are unambiguous)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:56 AM

Here's a page explaining how "bias" is built into bowls, as a way of making the game more skilful and interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:15 PM

Just to get back to the Scalia part of this thread. Great piece in the OP ED of the NY Times today---Scalia purchased a round trip ticket on an airline since Cheney left the "hunting" early. Reason was that a roundtrip is cheaper than one way. It is, however, illegal.   Strange rule, but there it is.

In theory the airlines can prosecute someone for this. Granted, it is bizarre pricing. However, a man of such "integrity" doing this and then---to add salt to the wound--proudly promulgating his thinking. What is the word I am looking for----Oh Yes---Chutzpah.

Scalia can talk all he wants about the upholding of the law and his objectivity but when push comes to shove he is like everyone one else. He is looking for a free ride---and in this case in the most literal sense.

So--if a case about the Airline pricing policy ever gets to the Supreme Court can we expect an honest ruling from the penurious Mr. Scalia.

The frightening part is that he is involved in delivering "justice".   But not for himself.


Bill Hahn

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry and world leaders
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 10:29 PM

I'm posting anonymously.
Someone out there far away should look into the cost of that vacation. I can't say too much but there was so much involved in that that it had to have been an extremely expensive hunting trip vacation. Wish someone would give me that kind of time off.