A national anthem for England

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Blowzabella
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 02:52 PM

I'm sorry I'm feeling nautically patriotic at the moment and I like 'Hearts of Oak' or 'Rule Britannia'. I hate the term jingoistic. If you can't be patriotic when singing your national anthem, when can you be? Do any other countries have problems singing of national pride? Surely, one can be proud of one's own heritage, country and culture without being disrespectful of other peoples. If not, we might as well knock trad English/Scottish/Irish/Welsh (insert any other country here including Africa, Jamaica, Breton) music, songs and stories on the head now.

A term which is used a lot these days is 'distinctiveness and a sense of place' - please not a melting pot - lets celebrate and recognise everyone's distinctiveness. Not try to pretend that none of our nations have histories


Heck - where did all that come from. I'm sorry - I'll go and lie down for a while....

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 04:46 PM

Blowzabella, the question posed was 'A national anthem for England' .... 'Rule Britania'? Look at yourself and read your posting!!

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Blowzabella
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 04:54 PM

oh sod off Jim - I fancied a rant - if it was thread drift - sorry - so shoot me! (*BG*)

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Jim McLean
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 06:52 PM

It wasn't a thread drift. I was merely pointing out that Britania isn't England.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 09:20 PM

Somebody back there mentioned 'the unlikely event' of the Celtic countries getting their independence. WEll, if that 'unlikely event' occurs, the English may be reminded that England was a Celtic country before the Germans and Scandinavians swiped it. The British might like it back. Some years ago we had a politician called Enoch Powell, who argued that immigrants should not be mistreated, they should merely be offered £1,000 and a ticket home. I wouldn't be so generous where the English immigrants are concerned. £20 and a ticket to Hamburg or Esbjerg would do!

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 05 Oct 04 - 10:12 PM

The subject has been done to death here in the past, and I do wish that people would make the tiny effort required to check the forum before embarking on yet another pointless piece of tedious repetition. Nothing new has been said here, nor is it likely to be. It will only bring the troublemakers and racists crawling out of the woodwork.

I would have expected Barrie, who I gather is a lawyer, to know that historical studies have moved on a little since the 18th century; but long-established romantic fantasies are hard to shrug off, I suppose; and the far more interesting and complex truth is less convenient in that it does not conform to the narrow mind-set of inherited prejudice.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 06 Oct 04 - 04:21 AM

It's all right for Barrie: he'll only have to move to Wales! (And even if they won't have him, I happen to know he's got friends in Esjberg!)

Steve
PS If they make me move back to Walsall, can I have your house, Barrie?

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 05:09 PM

Malcolm, I'd love to know where the Anglo-Saxons did come from, if only because it'd make it easier to repatriate them.
Steve, the whole point is not having to move to Wales. We ran this show once (and I say that as an half-Welsh, part Anglko-Irish, part Breton, so there!)
Barrie

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Blissfully Ignorant
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 05:16 PM

How about 'Old England' by The Waterboys? *walks off into the sunset giggling evilly*

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Real English Person
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 04:16 PM

"Billy Bragg" is an oikophobe who should have nothing to do with an anthem for the English people to identify with. For God sake, the cretin would rather support Trinidad & Tabago than England in the football. He is yet another snoringly typical perpetually-adolescent cocky traitor who's targeted an English institution to subvert in the name of his utopian ideology. I'm sorry Bragg but, as superior as you so obviously are, YOU do not define what it is to be English. Thank God you are such a boring 'artist'. Keep peddling the multicult propaganda from you lilly white village in South West England!

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Joe_F
Date: 19 Feb 07 - 08:17 PM

When I was in Britain (1958 or so), _Punch_ (I think it was) came out with an updated "Rule, Britannia" that ended

Fool, Britannia! It never got you much.
Learn to dwi-i-i-i-indle like the Dutch.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 04:55 AM

oikophobe? the Greek would seem to suggest someone who dislikes his own home. Is that how you see Bragg? That's not my reading of his work.
Have a look here and see what you think.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Mr Fox
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:25 AM

I think guest means somebody who dislikes oiks, Cap'n. (Oik = an uncultured person, a yob). Figures.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:38 AM

Billy Bragg hung the Trinidaian flag from his balcony during the world cup because it's where his wife comes from. It is part of his son's heritage.

Can people now no longer celebrate their diverse heritages without being accused of not being English enough?

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 07:40 AM

Who's Billy Bragg?

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:46 AM

Rule Brittania gets my vote every time. You can all really belt it out.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 10:54 AM

"Roots" by Show of Hands would be good :-)

Failing that, the White HareI'llgetmecoat.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Cragrat
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 01:57 PM

Heaven Knows I'm Miserable Now by The Smiths (a popular beat combo from the 1980s).

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 03:52 PM

Sydney Carter's EROS

Nigel

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Blindlemonsteve
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 04:04 PM

The last farewell, a great inspiring song. stooped in our naval traditions and hopelessly optimistic of a great caring fair for all country.....

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Frug
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 05:04 PM

Bonzo's   Cool Britannia

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Crane Driver
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:15 PM

Once again - England is NOT the same as Britain!!!! Britain is the island shared by the English, Welsh and Scots. The United Kingdom is Britain plus Northern Ireland.

"God save the Queen", for all its faults, is currently the national Anthem of the UK, not of England - that's why the English footie team gets booed for using it when playing against Wales or Scotland. GStheQ should only be used by teams that represent the whole of the UK, not just one region of it - the UK Olympic team is entitled to use it, the England footie boys are not.

Of course the English should have their own anthem. The cricket team uses "Jerusalem" - why not? The rugby team uses "Sweet Chariot", mainly because it has rude gestures - appropriate? English athletics (at the Commonwealth Games) used "Land of Hope & Glory", which hardly seems accurate these days. Hopefully the English will be able to choose something that fits - not for me to suggest anything.

What's wrong with GStheQ as a national anthem, someone asked. Mainly what's wrong is that its not about pride in your country but about subservience to an individual and her dysfunctional family. There's nothing wrong with being proud of your own country, as long as you allow other people to be proud of theirs, and don't use patriotism as an excuse to attack them.

Rant over.

Andrew

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 07 - 06:54 PM

I suggest John Cages 4 42 of silence,every religous denomination including the quakers and the yogists would be happy with that.wouldnt it be great to have everyone singing silence,how kind it would be to the tone deafers.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: eddie1
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:00 AM

Great idea Cap'n B - what wonderful opportunities for silent harmonies!

Eddie

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:06 AM

Old England (written by Colin Radcliffe and John Meeks) would be appropriate. It ends:

Will the last to leave Old England
Please turn out the light.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Charmain
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:27 AM

My problem with GSTQ as our national anthem is that its not about our nation its about a person.
We should have two new ones - one for England so we can sing it when we play sport against other UK teams and one for Britain that is about Britain - or at the very least mentions the name of the place!
I'd personally vote Jerusalem for the former and Land of Hope and Glory or Rule Britannia for the latter.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:28 AM

Billy Bragg's wife is from Trinidad........yes but she's white which I assume makes her a member of the 'colonial ruling class.' Oh, and Cliff Richard's an Indian?

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:34 AM

I and many others think God Save The Queen has a fairly boring and uninspiring tune (the lyrics are not exactly inspiring either, IMO).

For a British (as opposed to English) anthem, it would be better to have a rousing tune such as Rule Britannia or Land of Hope & Glory, but as others have said, the lyrics may not be as appropriate today as they once were.

For England, I don't know any existing song that would really fit the bill, having a good tune and lyrics appropriate to today. It would be better to write a new anthem. Maybe we could do it here as a joint effort, as per Jim Lad's songwriting by committee attempt.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:36 AM

I cannot think of a more appropriate song than Maggie Holland's "A place called England".

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 07:56 AM

"she's white which I assume makes her a member of the 'colonial ruling class."

Who are you to make such assumptions? She comes from Trinidad, she has pride in her background, she's passed that pride onto her son...that's all that matters in this context.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Captain Ginger
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:02 AM

Good call, George - it's an excellent song. Not the best tune in the world (the Welsh or the French can probably fight it out for honours on that one) but excellent sentiments.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Terry McDonald
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 08:41 AM

And who are you to ask me that?

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:41 AM

Come on, Terry, Ruth makes a fair point; i.e. there is no need to second-guess other people's motives. Ruth's aggressively-phrased question was commesurate with your attack on the motives of BB's wife. Let's not escalate further.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Charmain
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:47 AM

I agree - Cripes - can we lay off the cross-patch stuff and get back to the point - apparantly somewhere on t'internet there is a petition nominating Gold by Spandeau Ballet as the new national anthem - how do we feel about that?

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 09:55 AM

I'm sorry if my question was phrased aggressively - it was not meant to be. I don't know what Juliet D-W's background is, apart from the fact that she grew up in Trinidad. I simply thought it was a bit harsh to make assumptions one way or another, just because she hung a flag outside her house during the world cup that happened to not be English.

Sheesh.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:01 AM

Fair response to the statement, Ruth.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Alec
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:11 AM

Going back to Charmain's point,I am pleased most Internet petitions come to nought.
"Gold" by Spandau Ballet as National Anthem is one of the most preposterous suggestions to come out of the Net, yet.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Tery McDonald
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:22 AM

OK, George, fair point! And Ruth.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:26 AM

IMO, a better choice than 'Gold' would be There'll Always Be An England (written in 1940 by Ross Parker & Harry Par-Davies). A stirring tune, and the lyrics are:

There'll always be an England
While there's a country lane,
Wherever there's a cottage small
Beside a field of grain.
There'll always be an England
While there's a busy street,
Wherever there's a turning wheel,
A million marching feet.

Which would fit in rather well with the government's attempts to send us all to work on foot, don't you think? ;-)

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Darowyn
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:35 AM

I read recently -in a book of silly lists that I got for Christmas- that the tune for "God Save The Queen/King" was not an English tune in the first place.
Apparently it was originally a song written by French nuns praying for a successful outcome of their King's operation for piles.
I forget the exact wording of the original French version- but "God save our King" would be a fair translation.
So amongst the reasons for wanting a new national anthem, i.e
It's a dirge.
It presumes on an ongoing war with the Scots.
It's a prayer to a Militiary Specification God.
we can add:-
It's a rip-off of a French song anyway.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:40 AM

Jerusalem, hands down. Because it is so english.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Charmain
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 10:50 AM

I like Scrump's choice - are there any more lyrics to that one and where can it be heard?

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 11:11 AM

Hi Charmain. The words can be found on the web (see below - these are from one site I found). Bear in mind that it was a patriotic song written in wartime, so it may be that all the lyrics wouldn't be as appropriate today. But I don't see why they couldn't be tweaked. I would think the original authors wouldn't mind too much if they knew their song would be the new national anthem.

Also, some of the lyrics refer to Britain. Until relatively recently, people would often say 'England' when they meant 'Britain'. Thanks to the Scots and Welsh nationalists, this is no longer the case (I'm saying this is a positive thing, btw, Scots and Welsh readers!).

I guess we would want to replace 'Britain' by 'England' in the song if it were to be the English national anthem. It also refers to 'red white and blue' which of course are the British colours rather than England's.

Having said the above, I don't think the lyrics are particularly controversial or politically incorrect (but I fully expect somebody will find them so).

Here are the lyrics:

I give you a toast, ladies and gentlemen.
I give you a toast, ladies and gentlemen.
May this fair dear land we love so well
In dignity and freedom dwell.
Though worlds may change and go awry
While there is still one voice to cry - - -

There'll always be an England
While there's a country lane,
Wherever there's a cottage small
Beside a field of grain.
There'll always be an England
While there's a busy street,
Wherever there's a turning wheel,
A million marching feet.

Red, white and blue; what does it mean to you?
Surely you're proud, shout it aloud,
"Britons, awake!"
The Empire too, we can depend on you.
Freedom remains. These are the chains
Nothing can break.
There'll always be an England,
And England shall be free
If England means as much to you
As England means to me.

I found an mp3 by Jill Daniels here which should give you an idea of the tune. There's also a MIDI version there.

If anyone comes up with some alternative lyrics to replace the slightly inappropriate ones above, I'd be interested to see them.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Charmain
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 11:39 AM

How about this...

I give you a toast, ladies and gentlemen.
I give you a toast, ladies and gentlemen.
May this fair dear land we love so well
In dignity and freedom dwell.
Though worlds may change and go awry
While there is still one voice to cry - - -

There'll always be an England
While there's a country lane,
Wherever there's a cottage small
Beside a field of grain.
There'll always be an England
While there's a busy street,
Wherever there's a turning wheel,
A million marching feet.

England through and through?
What does it mean to you?
Surely you're proud, shout it aloud,
"People, awake!
To your country be true"
She depends upon you.
Freedom remains.
These are the chains
Nothing can break.

There'll always be an England,
And England shall be free
If England means as much to you
As England means to me.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Songster Bob
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 12:15 PM

How about sending 'em "This Land Is Your Land," with the place-names changed, of course? After all, we're not using it much.

For that matter, they can have a Constitution we're not using, as well.

Bob

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: The Vulgar Boatman
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 03:36 PM

Alex Glasgow

When God created Englishman he must have felt quite proud,
That noble creature brave and strong who stands out in a crowd,
He loves his country right or wrong,
He tolerates some wogs,
But nothing does he hate as much as cruelty to dogs.

In years gone by he beat his slaves from here to Samarkand,
And never stopped until he'd built an empire strong and grand,
He beat the French, the Dutch the Hun,
Drove the Irish from their bogs,
But all the time he ne'er forgot to love his puppy dogs.

In England's green and pleasant land there's room for Kings and Queens,
And noble folk who understand what sensibility means,
They hunt the fox, the hare, the grouse,
They set the stag at bay,
And afterwards they pay their dues to the R S P C A.

Has it all, really...

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Charmain
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 05:15 PM

Songster Bob wrote:
How about sending 'em "This Land Is Your Land," with the place-names changed, of course? After all, we're not using it much.

For that matter, they can have a Constitution we're not using, as well.


Cheers Bob - we could do with a written constitution we've not had one since King John promised each of his barons seven pigs apiece in 1215 - I mean they're nice things just to kind of have around even if all you do is take them out and dust them once in a while!

And cheers for the song aswell its a good one - tho' I think our Billy (The afore-mentioned Billy Bragg of previous postings) already half-inched it a while back - or tried too at least!!

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 04:29 AM

Today's useless but pertinent information. The Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA) was formed long before the National Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC). Seems we were kinder to our dogs than to our children.

LTS

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 05:07 AM

Charmain, your words to There'll Always Be An England are just the job - well done :-)

I'll vote for that for the English National Anthem. It's a good tune too, isn't it? Imagine it being sung by a crowd (instead of just one woman on that link I found).

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Scrump
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 05:09 AM

Today's useless but pertinent information. The Royal Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (RSPCA) was formed long before the National Society for Prevention of Cruelty to Children (NSPCC). Seems we were kinder to our dogs than to our children.

How is that pertinent to an English National Anthem, LTS?

(I don't dispute your point, I just wondered why you posted it in this thread)