A national anthem for England

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 08:16 PM

"or given that the royals are all german"

We-e-e-e-ll, the Queen, her children and grandchildren were all born in the UK. I'm fairly certain that endows them with British nationality. And the Queen's husband was born on Corfu, which surely makes him a Corfiot?

Not many Germans there.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: TRUBRIT
Date: 15 Dec 07 - 11:22 PM

Anything by Ray Davies-- what about Waterloo Sunset????? Certainly an anthem to a city if not a country......

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's Apprentice
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 02:28 PM

"what about Waterloo Sunset?????"

Actually I had that song in mind when I thought about Ray Davies songs as anthem. The Village Green Preservation Society also has a number of pieces that might be considered.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Fred Maslan
Date: 16 Dec 07 - 09:05 PM

From a country that didn't have an official anthem till the 1930's, I'd say you're better off without one. The "star spangled banner" is basicaly unsingable to begin with and when someonne sings it a little bit jazzy or "interpreted". people get uptight. Anthems become sanctified and sacrosanct, immutable and untouchable and ultimately meaningless. It's not worth it, don't do it.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 07 - 06:53 PM

Nothing unsingable about the Star Spangled Banner, if pitched right. The tune is a pleasant drinking song with room for enjoyable harmonies. Sounds pretty terrible when sung with excessive emotion. Or "interpreted", which sounds to me a pretty disastrous notion with any anthem.

The fashion for treating anthems as opportunities for hyped-up solo singers to show off is much to be lamented. The thing to do is just play the tune, and leave it up to the crowd or the players or whatever to sing along if they feel up to it.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Steve W
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 06:55 AM

Speaking of this subject, I've just launched a government e-petition calling for "Oh England, My Lionheart" to be adopted as the English National Anthem (England doesn't currently have one of its own. We have to use the overall UK anthem instead). If it receives 100,000 signatures, the matter has to be considered by parliament. Therefore I'd be grateful to any British visitors who take the time to sign it.

The petition can be signed here: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/12159

Thanks for your time. :)

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 07:37 AM

You must be joking Steve W, it's bloody appaling, not even the slimmest chance of even getting 100,000 sigs let alone being accepted.

By the way, are you the author of it ?

Dave H

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 12:40 PM

"Queen, her children and grandchildren were all born in the UK. I'm fairly certain that endows them with British nationality"

And of course she can trace her British ancestry back more than a millenium on both the English and Scottish sides

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Azoic
Date: 20 Aug 11 - 02:05 PM

June Tabor singing Maggie Holland's "A Place Called England".

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 02:22 AM

I thought this was an interesting collection of English anthems.
Source: http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/mod/rulebritannia.asp#Rule Britannia

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Modern History Sourcebook: British Imperialistic Anthems Rule Britannia and Land of Hope and Glory, and more Although many of these songs are quite long, in most case only parts are sung. Those parts are highlighted. Rule Britannia Land of Hope and Glory God Save the Queen The British Grenadiers Jerusalem I Vow to Thee My Country Rule Britannia *Click here for a MIDI file of Rule Britannia or a much livelier version *Click here for a Real Audio file of Rule Britannia [Note: Although real audio files are capable of being "streamed" over the net, that is not possible  from the server I am using on this page (that may change). But even as downloadables, they are much smaller than AU and WAV files. You will need a Real Audio player installed to play them. It is from from the Real Audio Website. ] When Britain first, at heaven’s command, Arose from out the azure main, Arose, arose, arose from out the azure main. This was the charter, the charter of the land, And guardian angels sang the strain. Rule Britannia! Britannia rule the waves. Britons never, never, never shall be slaves. The nations not so blest as thee, Must in their turn to tyrants fall, Must in their turn, must in their turn, To tyrants fall, While thou shall flourish, Shall flourish great and free, The dread and envy of them all. Chorus. Still more majestic shalt thou rise, More dreadful from each foreign stroke. More dreadful, more dreadful From each foreign stroke. As the loud blast that tears the skies, Serves but to root thy native oak. Chorus. Thee haughty tyrants ne’er shall tame, All their attempts to bend thee down, All their attempts, all their attempts To bend thee down, Will but arouse thy generous flame. But work their woe and thy renown. Chorus. To thee belongs the rural reign, Thy cities shall with commerce shine, Thy cities shall, thy cities shall With commerce shine. All thine shall be the subject main, And every shore it circles thine. Chorus. The muses still, with freedom found, Shall to thy happy coast repair, Shall to thy happy coast, Thy happy coasts repair, Best isle of beauty, With matchless beauty crowned, And manly hearts to guard the fair. Chorus. Land of Hope and Glory *Click here for a MIDI file of Land of Hope & Glory or an inferior version [Pomp & Circumstance, #1] *Click here for a Real Audio file of Land of Hope and Glory [Note: Although real audio files are capable of being "streamed" over the net, that is not possible  from the server I am using on this page (that may change). But even as downloadables, they are much smaller than AU and WAV files. You will need a Real Audio player installed to play them. It is from from the Real Audio Website. ] The music is Sir Edward Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance March No. 1 of 1902. During World War I, it was used as the theme for part of a poem by A. C. Benson (1862-1925) [the homosexaul Catholic convert son of the Archbishop of Canterbury, if memory serves right], by the music hall star Marie Lloyd. It was immediately adopted as perhaps the second most sung national song after God Save the King. Perhaps the reason was that it can be sung with much more gusto. Dear Land of Hope, thy hope is crowned. God make thee mightier yet! On Sov'ran brows, beloved, renowned, Once more thy crown is set. Thine equal laws, by Freedom gained, Have ruled thee well and long; By Freedom gained, by Truth maintained, Thine Empire shall be strong. Land of Hope and Glory, Mother of the Free, How shall we extol thee, Who are born of thee? Wider still and wider Shall thy bounds be set; God, who made thee mighty, Make thee mightier yet. Thy fame is ancient as the days, As Ocean large and wide: A pride that dares, and heeds not praise, A stern and silent pride: Not that false joy that dreams content With what our sires have won; The blood a hero sire hath spent Still nerves a hero son. God Save the Queen [or King] *Click here for a MIDI file of God Save the Queen *Click here for a Real Audio file of God Save the Queen [Note: Although real audio files are capable of being "streamed" over the net, that is not possible  from the server I am using on this page (that may change). But even as downloadables, they are much smaller than AU and WAV files. You will need a Real Audio player installed to play them. It is from from the Real Audio Website. ] God save our gracious Queen! Long live our noble Queen! God save the Queen! Send her victorious, Happy and glorious, Long to reign over us. God save the Queen! O Lord our God arise. Scatter her enemies, And make them fall. Confound their politics, Frustrate their knavish tricks. On thee our hopes we fix. God save us all! The choicest gifts in store. On her be pleased to pour, Long may she reign! May she defend our laws, And ever give us cause, To sing with heart and voice, God save the Queen! The British Grenadiers *Click here for a MIDI file of the British Grenadiers or a much faster version [second tune] Some talk of Alexander, and some of Hercules, Of Hector and Lysander, and such great names as these, But of all the world’s great heroes, There’s none that can compare, With a tow, row row row , row row row, To the British Grenadiers. None of these ancient heroes ne’er saw a cannon ball, Nor knew the force of powder to slay their foes with all, But our brave boys do know it and banish all their fears, Sing tow, row row row , row row row, For the British Grenadiers. When e’er we are commanded to storm the palisades, Our leaders march with fuses, and we with hand grenades; We throw them from the glacis about the enemies’ ears, Sing tow, row row row , row row row, For the British Grenadiers. And when the siege is over, we to the town repair. The townsmen cry ‘Hurrah, boys, here comes a Grenadier’. Here come the Grenadiers, my boys, who know no doubts or fears. Sing tow, row row row , row row row, For the British Grenadiers. So let us fill a bumper, and drink a health to those, Who carry caps and pouches, and wear the louped clouthes. May they and their commanders live happy all their years. Sing tow, row row row , row row row, For the British Grenadiers. Jerusalem The melody from 1916 is by Charles Hubert Hastings Parry, (1848-1918) and was used for an old poem by William Blake 1757-1827. The entire hymn is always sung. It was especially associated with the Women's Institute and Labour Party conferences. *Stuart Jeffries: Beyond Jerusalem: an article on Hubert Parry as a composer [At The Guardian] *Click here for a MIDI file of Jerusalem or here for a slightly soppier version *Click here for a Real Audio file of Jerusalem *Click here for a Real Audio file of Jerusalem [diff. rendition] [Note: Although real audio files are capable of being "streamed" over the net, that is not possible  from the server I am using on this page (that may change). But even as downloadables, they are much smaller than AU and WAV files. You will need a Real Audio player installed to play them. It is from from the Real Audio Website. ] And did those feet in ancient time Walk upon England's mountains green? And was the Holy Lamb of God On England's pleasant pastures seen? And did the countenance divine Shine forth upon our clouded hills? And was Jerusalem builded here Among these dark satanic mills. Bring me my bow of burning gold! Bring me my arrows of desire! Bring me my spear! O Clouds unfold! Bring me my chariot of fire! I will not cease from mental fight Nor shall my sword sleep in my hand Till we have built Jerusalem In England's green and pleasant land! I Vow to Thee, My Country The lyrics were written January 12, 1918 by Cecil Spring-Rice (1859-1918). The music from Gustav Holst (1874-1934) Planets suite (the hymn from Jupiter). In its hymn form it is known as Thaxted. The hymn was first performed in September 1918. Famous as Princess Diana's favorite hymn, it was sung at her wedding and funeral. It had long been a staple of British school assemblies. Click here for a MIDI file of I Vow to Thee My Country or faster version I VOW to thee, my country, all earthly things above, entire and whole and perfect, the service of my love: the love that asks no question, the love that stands the test, that lays upon the altar the dearest and the best; the love that never falters, the love that pays the price, the love that makes undaunted the final sacrifice. And there’s another country, I’ve heard of long ago, most dear to them that love her, most great to them that know; we may not count her armies, we may not see her King; her fortress is a faithful heart, her pride is suffering; and soul by soul and silently her shining bounds increase, and her ways are ways of gentleness and all her paths are peace.   Source: This text is part of the Internet Modern History Sourcebook. The Sourcebook is a collection of public domain and copy-permitted texts for introductory level classes in modern European and World history. Unless otherwise indicated the specific electronic form of the document is copyright. Permission is granted for electronic copying, distribution in print form for educational purposes and personal use. If you do reduplicate the document, indicate the source. No permission is granted for commercial use of the Sourcebook. © Paul Halsall, July 1998 [e-mail]

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 02:53 AM

A friend of ours, while working as a visiting speaker on theatre at London schools, took the opportunity to record some of the childrens' songs, rhymes and games.
He was given this gem from a pupil at an East London school:

"Rule Britannia,
Marmalade and jam.
Five Chinese crackers up your arsehole,
Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang."

Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 04:03 AM

I think the National Anthem should be instrumental, emotive, instantly recognised & so beloved of the people that it stirs joy into the hearts on account of its quintessential Englishness. To this end I suggest Ron Grainer's venerable Old Ned, better known, of course, as the theme from Steptoe & Son.

Otherwise, as the good old anarchist slogan had it: I will not stand for the National Anthem.

For the benefit of our American viewers:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7ly_tp-9SY

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 04:14 AM

I have always thought that the opening lines of I Vow To Thee... are grounds for divorce: "Entire & whole & perfect the service of my love"? "Entire"? What about one's wife or husband, then: don't they get any???

Nobody seems to have mentioned what has always seemed to me the main thing to be said in favour of the present one

~~ its delightful brevity.

When one has sat, waiting for the match to begin, thru some interminable boring tune in three distinct parts lasting about three whole minutes from some visiting nation, it's so lovely to know when they strike up our anthem that in a very few seconds [fewer than 30, I make it, including the opening drum roll] it will be over and the teams can get on with it.

As to the words: well, not that inspiring, but they are what we have; not particularly broke, so why bother to fix? A traditionally revered figurehead of state seems to me as worthy of standing as symbol of the nation as a starry or tricolor flag fluttering in the breeze.

As for the truculent "watch it you foreigners" element that some above have expressed desire for, as in watering plough-furrows with enemy blood like that lot just over there, or banners waving under gunfire like that other lot a bit further off in the other direction ~~ surely all that is subsumed under the one key word "Victorious"?

So, again ~~ If it ain't bust, don't fix it ~~ one of the wisest of all proverbs IMO.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Will Fly
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 04:33 AM

Oh well, IF we have to have a national English anthem - all part of the National Cliché such as we see in tat shops down Oxford Street: namely, models of London buses, the union flag (always wrongly called the jack), bowler hats, model pillar boxes, etc., etc. - then let's have one which nails the Little Englanders' colours to the mast.

Flanders and Swann's "Song of Patriotic Prejudice".

The English, the English, the English are best:
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest!
The rottenest bits of these islands of ours,
We've left in the hands of three unfriendly powers,
Examine the Irishman, Welshman or Scot,
you'll find he's a stinker or not.

The Scotsman is mean, as we 're all well aware,
And bony and blotchy and covered with hair,
He eats salted porridge, he works all the day,
And he hasn't got bishops to show him the way.

The English; the English, the English are best:
I wouldn't give tuppence for all of the rest!

The Irishman, now, our contempt is beneath,
He sleeps in his boots and he lies in his teeth,
He blows up policemen (or so I have heard),
And blames it on Cromwell and William the Third.

The English are noble, the English are nice,
And worth any other at double the price!

The Welshman's dishonest, he cheats when he can,
And little and dark, more like monkey than man,
He works underground with a lamp in his hat,
And he sings far too loud, far too often, and
FLA-A-A-T.

And crossing the Channel, one cannot say much,
For the French or the Spanish, the Danish or Dutch;
The Germans are German, the Russians are Red,
And the Greeks and Italians eat garlic in bed.

The English are moral, the English are good,
And clever and modest and misunderstood!

And all the world over, each nation's the same,
They've simply no notion of Playing the Game:
They argue with umpires; they cheer when they've won;
And they practise beforehand, which ruins the fun!

The English, the English, the English are best:
So up with the English, and down with the rest!

It's not that they're wicked or naturally bad ...
It's knowing they're FOREIGN that makes them so mad!
For the English are all that a nation should be,
And the flower of the English are Donald
(Michael!) and me!!

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 05:40 AM

Thanks, Will, for reminding us of Flanders and Swann, certainly among the flower of English humour. The adequate flag is of course the St George's cross. Sometimes it takes a divorce to become good friends, as purported in the case of Czechs and Slovaks. The Jack was originally the flag hoisted on the foremast, and could now well be replaced by the flag of the United Nations, bypassing the European Union (serves them right in Brussels!).

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 10:34 AM

I can't quite see why the likes of Rule Britannia or the British Grenadiers would be regarded as suitable for being specifically an English anthem!

Incidentally, as an aside, the words of Rule Britannia were written by Scottish poet James Thomson who was born in the tiny village of Ednam just outside of my home town of Kelso. Henry Francis Lyte who wrote the words for Abide With Me comes from the same tiny village. As did Captain Cook's father but that isn't quite so impressive :-)

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 12:46 PM

Remember, Allan, that the piece I posted was titled "British Imperialistic Anthems." I don't think the author was proposing them for current use.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 02:57 PM

I wasn't commenting on the piece as much as your own introduction to it. "I thought this was an interesting collection of English anthems" Was just pointing out that for instance the words to Rule Britannia are about Britain as a whole and not just England = and they were written by a Scot. It isn't an English anthem.

I know us non-English Brits can be a but pernickity about that but you should be used to it by now :-)

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Aug 13 - 03:36 PM

Actually when you look at the words, Rule Britannia isn't particularly imperialst - the words aren't about ruling other countries, they're about controlling the sea so as to ensure that "Britons never shall be slaves", in line with the principle laid down in court in the Sixteenth Century (though frequently ignored subsequently) that English law did not recognise slavery on its soil.

People often read subsequent history into National Anthems. People listen to the US Anthem, and hear it as about an overwhelming world power, rather than the relatively weak country struggling desperately to hold on to its independence. In the same way Britain in 1740, when Rule Britannia was written (by a Scot as has been pointed out) wouldn't have felt by any means a dominant country in Europe.

Not that that's got anything to do with a possible English anthem - Rule Brittania would never do.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: GUEST,Ged Wilson
Date: 21 Apr 21 - 09:35 AM

Our online folk club (Robin Hood's Bay) is having a St George/Harry/ England etc. theme night this Friday. I'm trying to learn John K's Brilliant Saint George from his "Make No Bones" CD, but I'm struggling with the tune (& running out of time!). Does anyone have 'the dots' or any form of notation, please?

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Apr 21 - 02:42 PM

Re some things upthread that need fixed:

Britain doesn't legally have a national anthem. God Save the Quing has never been adopted as such by any act of Parliament (it was written ti be George II's personal anthem, at a time when national anthems didn't exist). And there have been many variant sets of words for it, none ever standardized. A lot of Scots like to get outraged about the second verse quoted here, but there's never been a law to say anyone had to sing it, and it probably hasn't been except on very rare occasions. (Percy Scholes's book "God Save the King!" has everything any sane person would want to know about its history).

Parry's "Jerusalem" had strange origins - morphing from oddball militarist propaganda to suffragette anthem within months. The WI only took it up after the suffragettes had achieved their objective.

http://www.culturematters.org.uk/index.php/about-us/item/2254-jerusalem-a-hymn-to-women-s-suffrage

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Apr 21 - 05:21 PM

Keep that wheel a turning

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Apr 21 - 07:06 PM

Blake's Jerusalem is inspiring, but I feel that the spirit of the words has been much misinterpreted. We don't want any Second Amendment shite... The big tune from Holst's Jupiter is wonderful, but not, please, I vow to thee my country. Apart from that, I can't be arsed to think any more.

Subject: RE: A national anthem for England
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 22 Apr 21 - 02:17 AM

How about this one??

Words by Les Barker
Tune - Dam Busters by Eric Coates



Tracy likes Pina Colada
My Uncle Ron drives a Lada
We all sing the Birdie Song
Then somehow they all know WE'RE ENGLISH

Then we change all our Pesatas
Then we get laid by the waiters
Then we sing the Birdie Song
Then we go home