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Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'

GUEST,eddi 24 Mar 04 - 06:56 PM
Raedwulf 24 Mar 04 - 07:32 PM
GUEST 24 Mar 04 - 07:41 PM
Peace 24 Mar 04 - 07:42 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Mar 04 - 08:18 PM
Malcolm Douglas 24 Mar 04 - 08:21 PM
GUEST,MCP 24 Mar 04 - 08:28 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Mar 04 - 08:33 PM
Peace 24 Mar 04 - 08:35 PM
Malcolm Douglas 24 Mar 04 - 09:07 PM
dick greenhaus 24 Mar 04 - 09:56 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 24 Mar 04 - 10:36 PM
Amos 24 Mar 04 - 10:46 PM
JWB 24 Mar 04 - 11:11 PM
GUEST,Boab 25 Mar 04 - 02:39 AM
JennyO 25 Mar 04 - 05:04 AM
Snuffy 25 Mar 04 - 08:45 AM
Lighter 25 Mar 04 - 09:37 AM
Lighter 25 Mar 04 - 09:40 AM
GUEST,Philippa 25 Mar 04 - 01:29 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Mar 04 - 01:39 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Mar 04 - 02:03 PM
GUEST 25 Mar 04 - 02:15 PM
Amos 25 Mar 04 - 02:16 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 25 Mar 04 - 02:17 PM
Ivan 25 Mar 04 - 02:41 PM
Peace 25 Mar 04 - 02:44 PM
Lighter 25 Mar 04 - 07:16 PM
JWB 25 Mar 04 - 10:14 PM
Peace 26 Mar 04 - 04:48 PM
GUEST 26 Mar 04 - 07:43 PM
Snuffy 26 Mar 04 - 07:47 PM
Com Seangan 26 Mar 04 - 07:53 PM
GUEST,Anne Croucher 27 Mar 04 - 03:33 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Mar 04 - 04:02 PM
Lighter 27 Mar 04 - 06:36 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 27 Mar 04 - 08:46 PM
Charley Noble 28 Mar 04 - 09:04 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 28 Mar 04 - 09:53 PM
Charley Noble 29 Mar 04 - 08:55 PM
GUEST,Phil d'Conch 04 Jun 18 - 07:22 PM
Sandra in Sydney 04 Jun 18 - 09:26 PM
McGrath of Harlow 05 Jun 18 - 03:58 PM
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Subject: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: GUEST,eddi
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 06:56 PM

I was wondering if this word was from french sailors crying 'chante'.
apologies if there have been multiple threads about this... I did a search and nothing... my logic tells me this is the case with this word.
And if there are 'SEA shantys' are there other kinds of 'chante' songs...? is this a dumb question?


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:32 PM

Not a dumb question at all. A dumb question would involve guessing at a dumb answer...

You've actually hit the nail almost smack on the head, according to my OED. According to them, Shanty derives (almost certainly) from "Chantez!" Sing!, the imperative of the French chanter, "to sing".

I would be prepared to make an educated guess that the reason for the survival of shanty in connection with the sea has a lot to do with it's survival as 1-2, 1-2 working song, the kind of simple repetative song/task that wold have died out much earlier on land in the face of increasing mechanization.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:41 PM

thank ye kindly


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 07:42 PM

Good question. No, according to Webster's Tenth Collegiate. Different roots.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:18 PM

Shanty-chanty as applied to sailors songs first appeared in print in English in 1850s-1860s, in Chambers Journal (shanty), and in Nordhoff, 1856, "Nine Years a Sailor" (chantey). However, chaunt appeared in English in Chaucer, 14th c. The spellng chant is known from the 16th c. (and earlier?).

Whether the word came directly from French sailors and 'chantez' is open to argument, since the word chant was common in English and adapted from the French probably in Norman times.

Shanty, for a shack (small log cabin at first) probably came from Canadian French chantier, a logging camp hut. It appeared in the 1820s in print. It was noted, however, that those living in shanties were often Highland Scots, Americans and Irishmen (McTaggart, 1829, Three Years in Canada).


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:21 PM

It isn't possible to be sure, but the French derivation is usually considered most likely. You'll also find people suggesting that it derives from shanty (as in a cabin or hut; derived either from French chantier or Gaelic sean tig; again, even serious lexicographers cannot be certain), but that seems a bit contrived, and I've never seen a convincing argument in its favour.

The question has been discussed quite a lot here in the past, I think: probably in the main in the course of other discussions, so although the onsite search engine will find those references for you if you ask it the right questions, you'll have a fair bit of weeding to do along the way. You won't get an easy or definitive answer (there isn't one), but you'll learn interesting things so long as you keep in mind that most of what people say on subjects like this is opinion (or, sometimes, fantasy), not fact.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:28 PM

Hugill in Shanties From The Seven Seas discusses 6 theories on the origin of the word shanty, which can be roughly summarised as:


1. From West-Indian clinker-build huts called shanties which were moved on rollers by men hauling, a man on top of the house - the shantyman - singing a shanty-type song to help.

2. From the drinking dens - shanties - of Mobile and other Gulf ports. The name then being applied to the songs of the work-songs of the cotton-stowers and thence copied by the seamen.

3. From the boat songs of the old French voyageurs of the New World, called chansons.

4. From the French chantez either by way of Norman French, Modern French or the French dialect of New Orleans.

5. From the English chant/chaunt

6. From the songs of the lumbermen, which often start with "Come all ye brave shanty-boys".

His opinions were:

"I am rather inclined to believe that theory 1 has much in its favour, but it it, I'm afraid, rather difficult to prove.
Theory 3 I feel has little to support it - the only shanty that may have stemmed from the voyageurs is Shenandoah. Theories 2, 4, and 5 have some stronger claims perhaps, but No 2 is rather weak. Quite possibly Theory 5 is the right one - that 'shanty' came from the Old English word 'chant', with modified sound as the usage of the word grew. Or perhaps again all these theories are wrong and, like C.F.Smith says, the word 'just growed'! Whatever is the secret of the origin of the word I'm afraid it is lost for all time and we must take it as it stands"
.

He also has a section on the earliest uses of the word (shanty/chantey) and says (roughly) that the word not used for sailors' work songs prior to the middle/late1840s.

(All this apart from OED's apparently representing Fr. chantez)

Mick


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:33 PM

The title of this thread should have been 'Is shanty derived from French 'chante.'
In English, the word chanson was often associated with religious carols and hymns (17th-18th c. examples, OED).


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Peace
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 08:35 PM

Shanty is also a drink: mixture of beer/ale and ginger ale or spruce beer--which is non-alcoholic.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:07 PM

Not in the Old World, it isn't. Shandy. Etymology unknown, but it's a mix of beer and ginger beer or lemonade. Of course people in other parts of the world may have developed dubious foreign habits involving ginger ale (nothing at all like ginger beer) or even "spruce beer" (what is that?) but it's news to me.

Nothing whatever to do with maritime work songs, anyway.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 09:56 PM

as I've said before, your guess is almost as good as mine.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 10:36 PM

Shandy in Canada as well. I don't think Americans ever got a taste for it.
Shanty as a name for a place selling liquor is well-known in Australia.
Shanty applied to cow sheds and shacks in the USA (in fact all over) in the 1820s etc., and Traill spoke of log huts as shantys in Canada in the 1830s (not just loggers' huts- leads me to suspect that the name might have come across the pond with immigrants.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Amos
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 10:46 PM

American Heritage on "chant":

ETYMOLOGY:
Probably from French, song, from Old French, from Latin cantus, from past participle of canere, to sing. V., from Middle English chaunten, to sing, from Old French chanter, from Latin cantre, frequentative of canere. See kan- in Appendix I.

Whether the derivation of the English usage is via the French or more directly from the Latin is problematic, but probably not terribly significant.

A


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: JWB
Date: 24 Mar 04 - 11:11 PM

This will shed (NPI) no light on the etymological question, but this seems like a good place to post the lyrics to a parody I wrote a couple of years ago.

A Chantey From Old Chanteytown

It's only a chantey from old Chanteytown;
Sing "Away You Santy" and "Blow the Man Down".
Where Haulaway Joe comes down to Hilo,
While Stormalong's drinkin' with Reuben Ranzo.

Shallow Brown, Heiland Laddie and Jack's in cahoots,
And so we will pay Paddy Doyle for his boots,
And with Boney we'll roll that old woodpile on down
To a chantey from old Chanteytown.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:39 AM

Edna, might as well put in my tuppenceworth to add to all the speculative talk abot shanties. Can't think of any probable connection, but there's a wee song containing the line "she went in ablow the bed an' tummle't ow'r the chanty!" Er---don't request the rest of the lyrics for this particular ditty! I trust this wont trigger another "origin' discussion!
P.S. Are you about to launch a new career doing stuff like "the Alabama" and "General Taylor"?


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: JennyO
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 05:04 AM

Q, I'm an Australian, and I have never heard of a shanty being the name of a place to sell liquor. We usually call it the bottle shop.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Snuffy
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 08:45 AM

Here is my own theory, and I have absolutely no evidence to support it, but it does seem as plausible and undisprovable as many others.

Shanties are so called because they are like the singing style of the slaves, who were brought to the Americas from Ashanti in West Africa.

WassaiL! V


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 09:37 AM

The chief objections to deriving "shanty" from "chanter!" are that few, if any, English seafaring terms are known to derive from French, and it is hard to understand why English-speaking sailors would adopt a French word for something they would ordinarily have called a "song" or perhaps a "stave."

The chief objections to deriving "shanty" from "chant" are that the intermediate form, "chantie" or "chanty" (pronounced with a "hard"
ch-)has never been found by the OED. And the earliest knwn example of
the sailors' word is spelled with an sh- .

You pays your money and you takes your choice.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 09:40 AM

Almost forgot. If sea "shanty" comes from the "shanties" of slaves, the original form would likely have been "shanty song."

But there is no known record of this phrase either.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 01:29 PM

sea shanty is also spelled chantey (similar to chant and chantez, chanson, etc). I pronounce both spellings the same.
The derivation (from French or from Latin) could be indirect; we already had the word "chant" in English, but that wouldn't explain the pronunciation of the sh/ch sound as in chanson but not as in chant. Or maybe English speakers used to pronounce chant more like the French?

For what it's worth, an exhibit at Ellis Island states that the word was derived from "chanson". Or did when I visited ....

I have only come across one spelling for the house type shanty - until I saw the lyrics in this thread where it seems a pun has been made deliberately or otherwise to form "Chanteytown". Q writes, "Shanty, for a shack (small log cabin at first) probably came from Canadian French chantier, a logging camp hut. It appeared in the 1820s in print. It was noted, however, that those living in shanties were often Highland Scots, Americans and Irishmen (McTaggart, 1829, 'Three Years in Canada')." As the Highland Scots and Irishmen would have been Gaelic speakers, I like the theory of "sean tigh", meaning "old house", as the derivation in this case.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 01:39 PM

Lighter, where does the 'hard ch' enter into it? The French words 'chant' and 'chanter' are pronounced 'shahn' and 'shahn-tay.' No difference from chantey and shanty.

The spellings shanty and chant(e)y appear in roughly the same time period- one would be guessing to say which was first (Shanty, 1869, Chambers Journal;
Chantey, 1856, Nordhoff, "The foreman is the chantey man, who sings the song, the gang only joining in the chorus."
So "Who's On First?"

Also see Clark Russell, 1883, "Sailors Language," "So the same 'chantey,' as the windlass or halyard chorus is called, furnishes the music to as many varied indignant remonstrances as Jack can find injuries to sing about"). Kipling, later, also used the spelling 'chantey.'

JennyO, my authority for the Australian use of 'shanty' for a 'sly grog shop' is Lawson, 1902, "Children of Bush," "what damned fools we'd been throwing away our money over shanty bars," and Rogers, 1864, "The keepers of the stores and shanties grieve."
JennyO, current usage may be different.

All quotations from the OED. The 'shanty' lingo is much contaminated by the predudices of modern 'sailors' and chanty singers.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:03 PM

Philippa, there was a song about a 'sean tigh,' in one of the threads. Could you point me to it? The possibility of this being the origin of shanty as applied to a hut is intriguing.
It would also help explain the widespread use of the term- Australia, in India by English-speakers, etc.- places outside the influence of French Canadians.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:15 PM

I don't know which song you're referring to, Q, but there was a bit of crack about the derivation of "shanty" at the Pogue Mahone thread


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Amos
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:16 PM

There's a verse in "Blue Mountain Lake", as I recall which says:

"Bill Mitchell, ya know him, he kept our shantee
Was as mean a damn man as you ever did see;
He would lay 'round the shanty from morning to night
And if a man said a woprd he was ready to fight."

From which the meaning is clear of "shanty" as a shack for keeping tools or serving food out of. Similar usage in the expression "shanty town" for cheap poor housing...all of which has nothing to do in my mind with "chanty" which I'd be inclined to believe comes from the Latin for singing as mentioned above.

A


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:17 PM

Lighter, I think I mistakenly interpreted your remark about 'hard ch' as the 'k' pronumciation, as in 'cantar.' Sorry about that. But chantey and shanty were both in usage in mid-19th c. I don't know how 'chantey' was pronounced at that time.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Ivan
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:41 PM

Regardless of what other sources might say, the French certainly claim that shanty is derived from Chantez. Or, more specifically, the Bretons do. In fact they hold the International Shanty Festival in Brittany every year to celebrate the fact.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Peace
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 02:44 PM

Spruce beer is much like ginger beer, but made with spruce sap as opposed to ginger root. Hard to find anymore. It is my all-time favourite soft drink.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 07:16 PM

If Nordhoff, an educated writer, had reason to believe that "shanty" came from "chantez!" he presumably would have spelled it accordingly.
Of course this observation proves nothing, but an early "ch-" spelling
would strengthen the case for a French origin in the absence of examples of (presumed) "chantie" or "chanty" (meaning literally "a little song").

Q, you are correct to say that the pronunciation of the word spelled "chantey" in 1869 and since is unknown. Precisely the point. What testimony we have from seafaring writers is that the English word for a seagoing worksong is always pronounced "shanty" (at least by sailors) and Nordhoff's early spelling supports that, regardless of the word's actual origin.

Without getting technical, the sound "ch-" in English is more likely to change into "sh-" than vice versa.

To repeat, a French origin is certainly possible but not provable. It is noteworthy that the OED etymology reads "Said to be" from French.
That means the evidence is inconclusive, which is not unusual.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: JWB
Date: 25 Mar 04 - 10:14 PM

Lighter,

There is a line in a traditional Newfoundland song that has "shanty song" in it. The song is Ticklecove Pond, and the verse runs:

When the bowline was fastened around the mare's breast
William White for a shanty song made a request.

Now, I suspect the author used this phrase to make the line scan, and not because that was the usual term. Then again, it is a Newfie song...

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Peace
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 04:48 PM

Re: SHANDY (beer and soft drink mix)--thank you. I always thought it was spelled shanty. Live and learn. Thanks again.

Bruce Murdoch


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 07:43 PM

BOAB.... do you, or any here , remember the Billy Connoly parody of 'HELP ME MAKE IT THROUGH THE NIGHT'

I am certain on of the lines included a reference to CHANTY... but it was obviously a Glaswiegian object... I have no idea what it is but he sings:

" take the curlers from your hair
shake em loose and let them fall
lay them down by your glass eye
by the CHANTY on the wall,
thou your teeth are black and gone
and your breath smells outasite
I'll put a claespeg (clothes peg) on my nose
to help me make it through the night "

SUCH a cheeky boy... !! but what is the chanty he sings of?


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Snuffy
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 07:47 PM

A pisspot, I believe


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Com Seangan
Date: 26 Mar 04 - 07:53 PM

Re the shanty song I can't be sure. But a shanty town is something different. This shanty must be recognised as sean-tigh.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: GUEST,Anne Croucher
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 03:33 PM

I thought that shanty town and shanty for a song were linked as so many shanties have verses which travel between them, so a song made up of bits and pieces, just like the shanty dwellings which are generally made from whatever can be got together and nailed/lashed into place.

Aren't 'potties' called shunties 'cos they get shunted under the bed, slight links with guzunder - goes under the bed?

Woa! a chanty is a cupboard (or maybe alcove?) for oddments - there was someone who called the out house a chanty when I was at home - long time ago that - the council house we lived in had a coal house one side and a store room the other - we called it an out house but one of the neighbours called it the chanty - but ch as in church. I haven't heard that for maybe 50 years. How time flies.

Anne Croucher


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 04:02 PM

Guest Anne- "Chantey as in church. I haven't heard that for maybe 50 years."

Chantey is frequently pronounced that way in the USA. It is common enough that Webster's Collegiate Dictionary maintains it as an alternate.
Was chant(e)y pronounced 'shanty' in mid-19th c. or as in the English word chant, or the earlier one chaunt? I don't have access to early 19th century dictionaries or guides to pronunciation, so I can't answer that.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Lighter
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 06:36 PM

I must correct an embarrassing error I made earlier. I misattributed the 19th century examples of "chantey" and "shanty." Nordhoff DID spell "chantey-man" in 1856 - the earliest known example. The journalist writing in 1869 was the first we know of to spell it "shanty."

Many apologies for this blunder.

We don't know for certain how Nordhoff (an American) pronounced what he spelled as "chantey."   We do know there's only one way to pronounce 1869 "shanty."


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 27 Mar 04 - 08:46 PM

Upper class English 'shaunty.' OK, hold the rotten eggs!


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 09:04 PM

I have to confess I'm scanned a lot of early 19th century journals of old sailors looking for references of sailor's work songs. Can't find anything earlier than Nordhoff for describing the song leader as a "chantey-man." In his case I believe he was describing the work task as loading bales of cotton in some southern port, rather than work aboard ship such as dealing with the anchor, the sails, or pumping.

It could be that the term was adopted from the loading crews from dockside and extended to describe the other already existing sailing work songs.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 28 Mar 04 - 09:53 PM

Apparently the men working at screwing cotton were English and Irish sailors, quoting Nordhoff from Hugill.
I wish I had Nordhoff's books; the one I have ("Man-of-War") is not pertinent.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Charley Noble
Date: 29 Mar 04 - 08:55 PM

It also seems likely that at least half of the stevedores loading cotton would be Blacks, and Hugill does credit them as the origin for many of the Mobile Bay/New Orleans work songs that later went to sea as sea shanties. I do admit that I'm not really reviewing Hugill as I say this but I don't think I'm far off the mark.

Well, I do see the Nordhoff quote in Hugill's Sailortown, p. 182, that most of the cotton screwers in the 1840's were "English and Irish sailors" who had jumped ship to earn more money. However, cotton screwing shanties such as "Fire Maringo" sound to me like they originally come from a Black tradition of work songs, later adapted by the Liverpool crowd.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 04 Jun 18 - 07:22 PM

Bumping another orphaned shanty thread and ironically following a Charlie Noble post ;)

The French Colonial shanty is short for “camboose shanty,” (or similar,) which is a corruption of caboose chantier. Shanty takes its pronunciation (soft "ch", mostly silent “r”) from the latter and definition (cabin) from the former.

Chantier was a generic for construction site with lumber and shipyards being tops. The nautical caboose was a kind of deckhouse. A shanty on a flatbed railcar (shanty car) was an old school caboose. The Colonial usage has morphed from kitchen/galley, mess hall, cantine, commissary, bunkhouse, cabin &c over the decades. In Creole it's a cabana.

The French root is cabane: f. A cote, or cottage; also, a shed, or cabine, made of boughs.


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 04 Jun 18 - 09:26 PM

& following up from JennyO's post of 25 Mar 04 - 05:04 AM

Q, I'm an Australian, and I have never heard of a shanty being the name of a place to sell liquor. We usually call it the bottle shop.

She was referring to today's Bottle Shops where folks can buy alcohol to take away, Q was referring to 19th century shacks mentioned in various folk songs where alcohol was sold for consumption on the premises & the blokes consuming were usually sold inferior alcohol & often robbed!

sandra


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Subject: RE: Is 'shanty' derived from 'chanson'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Jun 18 - 03:58 PM

Shebeen is the other word widely used in various parts of the world for similar establishmeents. The original Irish theme pub...


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