BS: Paranoia ?

Subject: BS: Paranoia ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:14 AM

Is the biggest effect of terrorism, the paranoia that it has induced in different countries?
This thought is promted by America's decision to fingerprint, and photograph all non visa visitors. Is it going to do much more than frustrate visitors, and reassure residents?
My son who lives in NH, and works at a medical research facility, attached to a university campus. When it came time to renew his visa he was told that it could no longer be done at the British embassy, and he could only apply from his home country. So to renew his visa he had to fly home to the UK, fly to London for an interview at the embassy, then fly back to the US when it was approved.
Not that the US is alone in this, Australian visas can be hard to get too, as I found out. Many other countries are introducing stringent border controls, but the killing still goes on. The recent tragedy in Spain was apparently carried out by Moroccans holding Spanish passports, and domiciled in the country.
I guess what I'm saying is that I don't think it will stop the present outbreaks of violence perpetrated by zealots, religious or otherwise. So what's the answer?
John

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:36 AM

terrorism is the muslim worlds answer to globalisation.

the world is so polarised now, and with Australia, England, the US leading wars of invasion into muslim countries, we are more at risk.

any country now has an obligation to have stricter border control and screening procedures. the way these procedures have developed is by people at the top saying "do something" and people at the airports visa offices etc making up a whole lot of procedures and implementing, so they can say its been done. knee jerk reactions which people then have to put into place/ urdergo.

some of these procedures have picked up and prevented terrorist incidents from happening, already.

some of them are outrageous, like your son having to fly back to another country for an interview. a new form of mccarthyism is moving around the planet, and countries also are spying on and punishing their own citizens, under laws in which requirements for evidence have been removed.

i can see the problem. but who can think of an answer, in this globalised world. if our own political leaders have no power, and jump to the commands of a larger power, what hope has the common citizen got of solving anything?

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: alanabit
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:39 AM

You have my sympathy John. I don't know exactly what the answer is, but we can forget all about a simple quick fix answer to terrorism. A lot of the eye catching, dramatic responses are only for the politicians' own audiences and will have little effect on a complex and persitent problem. In the long term it will mean engaging with the causes and breeding grounds of terrorism. It has long been my belief that the refugee camps of displaced people in the Middle East have produced more terrorists than all the political tracts in the world. The measures you are talking about have been designed only to play to the gallery. The terrorists aren't in the gallery.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 05:46 AM

the only thing that refugee camps breed are boredom, hopelessness, futility. refugees are people escaping persecution. they are victims.
terrorists don't put themselves in camps. they fly first class on legal passports.

yes, people in refugee camps will take help from whoever offers. Who is going to help these people?

refugees are an easy scapegoat. many of australia's prominent successful citizens came here as refugees, despite government concerns at the time. they have proved their worth.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Apr 04 - 06:02 AM

The assumption in these border control things is that the danger is going to be from people coming in from abroad, or who at any rate look foreign.

You just need to think a litle about that, and it becomes clear that it is a very silly assumption.

In England currently there's a big worry about a bunch of young British muslims who have been picked up in connection with alleagations they were preparing for a bombing campaign.

Anf over in the USA in Texas a couple of very mainstream respectable looking white Texans are waiting sentence for possession of a horrifying terror arsenal:   

Inside the home and storage facilities of William Krar, investigators found a sodium-cyanide bomb capable of killing thousands, more than a hundred explosives, half a million rounds of ammunition, dozens of illegal weapons, and a mound of white-supremacist and antigovernment literature.

Here is a story about the case from an American paper, and another from an English paper.

"Critics say the case shows that the authorities, obsessed with Islamic terrorists, have ignored the deadly assortment of domestic extremists. America's right-wing groups, though diminished in numbers since 1995, have become bent on acquiring weapons capable of mass slaughter."

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: michaelr
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:00 AM

Freda, please clarify -- which war of invasion has Australia led recently?

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:19 AM

michael

iraq, and i gues the word should be followed. but we were in from the start.

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 01:24 AM

In the US, the second worst terrorist attack (Oklahoma City Bombing - 168 killed) was perpetrated by white men who were born and raised in the US, who were not Muslims, and who didn't fit any of the categories into which we so dearly love to fit everyone upon whom we want to affix the label "terrorist". I think that's worth remembering when we talk about who the terrorists are.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 03:03 AM

freda ...countries also are spying on and punishing their own citizens, under laws in which requirements for evidence have been removed.

Which countries?

alanabit... It has long been my belief that the refugee camps of displaced people in the Middle East have produced more terrorists than all the political tracts in the world.

Well said!

McGrath ... "Critics say the case shows that the authorities, obsessed with Islamic terrorists, have ignored the deadly assortment of domestic extremists. America's right-wing groups, though diminished in numbers since 1995, have become bent on acquiring weapons capable of mass slaughter."

and I've always said the U.S. and Israel combined have more WMD than all of the muslim terrorists combined.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 02:10 PM

d: That last comment is true, but if you had to choose, in whose hands would you rather the weapons be? Neither would be your answer number one. What would be your answer number two?

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:33 PM

Brucie, we know all three use them - it's just a question of who they use them on. And what happens next.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: Peace
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:37 PM

Yeah, it's the 'what happen next' that is the scary part.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 04 Apr 04 - 06:41 PM

Gee Freda,

I never knew that the IRA, the Basque seperatists, the Quebecois separatists, the Red Army, the Shining Path or any of the other terrorist organizations that have existed or are currently in existence were muslim. Wow! You learn something new every day!

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 12:07 AM

chief c..

yes, terrorism is not new, is not confined to particular races or cultures. how do i know tyhis? not just from reading the papaers. i worked with a survivor of abduction by the shining path. i have been put under house arrest for three weeks, in a foreign country. i have interviewed human rights violators, and their victims.

shall i qualify this by covering some other area that you think i should mention?

how safe has your life been? you may have also been exposed to the tough side. but dont make assumptions.

best wishes

freda

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 06:08 AM

"terrorism is the muslim worlds answer to globalisation"

Complete and utter crap. Sorry can't say it any plainer than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 06:20 AM

you do say that very plainly, teribus!

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 03:19 PM

terrorism is the muslim worlds answer to globalisation

I was making light of your original post. No assumptions were made. Sorry for what you have endured.
Do I feel safe? How safe is my life?
Define the word for me.
I had a fifteen year old kid shot to death on my front porch when I was seven. My job is to respond to oil/hazardous materials incidents. The only difference between these and WMDs is intent. We will also respond to WMDs because we are the "experts" and are trained for it.
Safe from terrorists? No safer than before 9/11 but that's because I'm on the inside and have been talking about this long before 9/11 and couldn't get anyone to listen to me (I'm a very minor fish though, so no-one needs to listen to me if they don't want to.)
I've never been worried about terrorists anyway. I worried far more when I was young that someone would drop the bomb, accidentally or otherwise. Living near military bases all your life makes you jaded about such things though. At least you know you're gonna go and not be one of the survivors (which I believe would be far worse).
I've always lived in Hurricane Alley or an earthquake zone. I've had tornadoes touch down not too far away.
Why worry singularly about terrorists when there are so many other factors that just might kill me?

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 05 Apr 04 - 04:04 PM

Well, I don't think freda said "all" terrorism. It's just a generalization about present-day *muslim* terrorism.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: ard mhacha
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 06:45 AM

I have just been reading todays Observor and The Independent and it looks like the situation in Iraq is out of control, the US will have to hand over the the UN or get out, they are sinking ever deeper in the mire.
They read the situation all wrong when they invaded Iraq and as for handing over the reins in June this is now out of the question, any one who cannot see this is as silly as the people who advised Bush.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:17 PM

terrorism is the muslim worlds answer to globalisation

This statement is problematic for several reasons, but the one I have the most difficulty with is that it appears to be saying that all Muslims are responding to globalization with terrorism, which, considering the fact that there are close to a billion Muslims in the world, couldn't be further from the truth. If terrorism was the answer of all, or even a sizable percentage of Muslims' answer to globalization, they could have already stopped globalization in its tracks.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: freda underhill
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 12:25 PM

terrorism is the muslim worlds answer to globalisation - i think i clarified in my post of Apr 04 - 12:07 AM that i wasnt making a sweeping generalisation, or even a vacuuming one.

but here is an article that says what i was trying to say, so much better:

http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-3-77-1501.jsp

regards

freda

(ducking for cover)

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: GUEST,Kent Davis
Date: 06 Apr 04 - 11:15 PM

As several of my patients have said, "I'm not paranoid. They really are out to get me."

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: Rapparee
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:54 AM

I have never been able to understand why it is that people, especially those in the West, feel that they have some sort of "right" to a risk-free life.

Yes, you should be able to live free from from risk, free from fear. But not in this world -- never was and never will be as long as people are people.

This in no way means that we have to give in and go armed, or anything of the sort. It only means that we should accept what is and stop worrying about it, and do our damnedest to change it for the better.

When I was born there had been no deliberate fission explosion anywhere on the globe. I've lived under the shadown of The Bomb (and so have all of you). Now we live under the shadow of some sort of Terror attack, a relatively new idea for those in the US -- but other countries have done so for quite some time.

I could be hit by a car -- I grew up with this threat, and learnt to cope with it. I could slip on the stairs, again, I've learnt to do my best to avoid this. Nowadays I could be involved in a terror attack -- okay, I have to learn to cope with it, and packing a gun (for instance) won't do a thing to help me survive a cloud of VX or Sarin.

My ancestors and yours faced other threats, from being ridden down by the local baron to death by plague to being lunch.

Like greatness, some risks we achieve and some we have thrust upon us.   
But we can't just sit around and lament the loss of the risk-free life we never had.

freda was doing something when she was placed under house arrest, and I respect her for that. Risks were involved and she accepted them. But whether you know the risks or not, you can't opt out of them. You can even die just laying in bed. Me, I'd rather go out doing something. Your mileage may vary.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:08 AM

Compared with the threat that was hanging over us during the age of Mutual Assured Destruction, what we're up against now is pretty mild stuff.

Planes, sky-scrapers, trains, nightclubs, perhaps a dirty bomb in a city somewhere...Horrifying and tragic, sure. But we aren't talking about thousands of nuclear warheads on all our cities and a Nuclear Winter, are we?

If we could shrug it off all those years and keep on living our luves and raising our families in spite of it all, this latest thing isn't worth losing too much sleep over, or allowing it to distort the way we live too much. And we should recognise when there are people trying to take advantage of the situation to strengthen their hold on power.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: GUEST,noddy
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 10:11 AM

Thats one thing I realy am worried about!

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Apr 04 - 08:22 PM

"...we should recognise when there are people trying to take advantage of the situation to strengthen their hold on power."

Thats exactly what the Bush administration has done. They have destroyed the American spirit. It takes courage and determination to stand up to fear mongering. The best defense is to actually get out there and do something about it. Pain is caused by fear and fear is caused by ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 04:33 AM

MofH, I'm afraid that MAD is still with us, the only thing that's changed is how imminent is the pressing of the button, and the direction we need to look in to see the missiles coming.
John

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 07:55 AM

McGrath of Harlow - 07 Apr 04 - 10:08 AM

"what we're up against now is pretty mild stuff."
&
"this latest thing isn't worth losing too much sleep over, or allowing it to distort the way we live too much."

Not so, far from it, you could not be more wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: Stu
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 08:38 AM

Not so, far from it, you could not be more wrong.

Teribus - you may well be right - do you care to qualify that?

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:04 AM

There are thousands of nuclear missiles in the hands of terrorist organisations pointing at our cities? Blimey, I hadn't realised that.

Keep things in proportion is all I'm saying. They're bad enough, but it could be a lot worse. It could even get to be a lot worse and still be better than what we've lived through.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 09:11 AM

No, MAD hasn't gone away. It's sitting on one side of a see-saw while "Making a Buck" (MAB) sits on the other.

Face it, most of the current good will between the US, Russia and China is based on money. If something should derail that economic train, the nukes will pop right back out.

Sure, there's been some disarmament during the last couple of decades. Now there are probably only enough nuclear weapons in the world to completely destroy it one time instead of the four or five times that could have been achieved in 1980.

Bruce

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 01:05 PM

Personally, in the interests of keeping things in proportion, I never lost one wink of sleep, I never worried, or had any concerns about travelling, throughout the entire duration of what was referred to as the "Cold War". Even after sitting through countless briefings on "The Threat", true, it was taken seriously, but it was known, focused and capable of being countered. As MGOH says - "we lived through" it and prospered. The balance held, until it ultimately ended, because the USSR could no longer keep pace with the USA, the President who did more to convince the Soviet block of this fact than any other was Ronald Reagan.

Not so now. The "threat" we are faced with now is far more dangerous, and as such, has to be confronted. The source of this new "threat" declared it's intentions many years before 9/11. The current President of the United States of America, has done more, than any other President, or national leader, in terms of recognition, and realisation of the extent of this new "threat" and of forging the necessary tools required to effectively counter it. Many might not like it, or be prepared to acknowledge it. Up until the end of the Clinton administration, the west, and the US in particular, responded, rather ineffectually, to international terrorist attacks. The current administration came in with the policy of taking the fight to the aggressor, who now knows that they, themselves, are the targets and that they no longer have things going entirely their own way.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 01:23 PM

The threat we are faced with is not more serious. It's more immediate, but that's a different matter. We are not at this point facing the possible imminent destruction of the human race. We were then.

"Taking the fight to the aggressor" - that really is rich in the context of the invasion of Iraq, for all that Saddam was a very nasty piece of work, who had done his share of aggressing in the past, largely as a proxy for the USA, in the case of the war with Iran.

The international terrorists who carried out September 11th and the other similar atrocities, had nothing to do with Iraq. They have now, of course, and potentially they are far strtonger and more dangerous than they were before. "Things aren't going entirely their own way"? They are going far far better than they could ever have dreamed was conceivable.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 01:34 PM

MGOH,

Nothing stated in my post of 08 Apr 04 - 01:05 PM, has got anything to do with Iraq, please indicate anywhere within that post that might be taken as referring to Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: Amos
Date: 08 Apr 04 - 01:40 PM

Teribus:

Sorry, but I think your view is delusory.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:08 PM

Terribus -

Under the previous Pres. I and a good number of other military personnel received training in preventing and dealing with a terrorist attack on American soil. I haven't received any additional training since 9/11. By taking the fight to the aggressor (they never were in Iraq) the pres. has left the many open holes along our borders which desparately need to be plugged. He has taken a good deal of response personnel (for some reason alot of police, firemen, paramedics, etc. join the reserves and Nat'l Guard) out of their communities. He has taken resources away from the patrolling of America's ports and waterways. We are no safer now than we were before Sept. 11 except to being more aware of th risks.

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:34 PM

"The current administration came in with the policy of taking the fight to the aggressor.."

My undertanding is that Al Qaeda was the aggressor. We (Bush and his merry men, that is} have spent more lives and money taking the fight to Iraq than taking the fight to Al Q.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 12:35 PM

oops -- that was me

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 09 Apr 04 - 01:30 PM

Al Quaeda is/was run by a native of Saudi Arabia, it receives/received large amounts of cash from Saudi Arabia. What does the present US administration do about stopping this? Nothing! Why? Might have something to do with oil, and defence contracts, Britain does well out of Saudi Arabian defence contracts!
Still based on present evidence, today's friends become tomorrow's enemies.
Don't hold your breath!
John

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 05:35 AM

Bill ?

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 06:18 PM

They're coming to take me away Haha!

Subject: RE: BS: Paranoia ?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 08:40 PM

They´re coming to take me away haha
Napoleon the 14th

Remember when you ran away
And I got on my knees and begged you
Not to go because I´d go beserk?
WELL, You left me anyhow and
Then the days got worse and worse
And now you see I´ve gone completely
out of my mind
AND
(chorus 1)
They´re coming to take me away,
Haha, they´re coming to take me away,
Ho ho, hee hee, ha ha,
To the funny farm
Where Life is Beautiful all the time
And I´ll be happy to see
Those Nice Young Men
In their Clean White Coats
And they´re coming to take me AWAY,
HA HAAAA

You thought it was a joke,
and so you LAUGHED, YOU LAUGHED
When I had said that losing you
Would make me flip my lid,
RIGHT?
You know you laughed
I HEARD you laugh, you laughed
And laughed and laughed
And then you left,
And now you see I´m Utterly Mad
AND

(chorus 2)
They´re coming to take me away,
Haha, they´re coming to take me away,
Ho ho, hee hee, ha ha,
To tha Happy Home with Trees and Flowers
And Chirping Birds and basket weavers
Who sit and smile and
Twiddle their thumbs and toes
And they´re coming to Take me Away,
HAHAAAAAAAAA

I cooked your food,
I cleaned your house,
And this is how you pay me back
For all my kind unselfish loving deeds
RIGHT?
Well, you just wait,
They´ll get you yet,
And when they do, they´ll put you in
the ASPCA, you mangy MUTT,
AND
(chorus 1)
(chorus 2)
(chorus 1 trailing into mumbles in the distance)



--------------------------------------------------------------------
I´m happy they took you away, Ha-haaa!
Napoleon the 14th

Remember when I ran away
And you got on your knees
And begged me not to leave
Because you´d go berserk?
WELL...
You thought you had me fooled
But I just left you anyhow
Because I knew you were
Already out of your mind!
AND...
I´m happy they took you away, haha
I´m happy they took you away, ho ho, hee hee, ha ha
To the funny farm
Where life´s hysterical all the time
And you´ll be sorry I sent
Those nice, young men
In their clean, white coats
And I´m happy they took you away, HA-HAAA!
I thought that you were nuts
And so I laughed
I laughed when you had said
That losing me would make you flip your lid
RIGHT...
It´s true, I laughed, you heared me laugh
I laughed, I laughed and laughed
And then I left
Because I know you´re utterly mad
AND...
I´m happy they took you away, haha
I´m happy they took you away, ho ho, hee hee, ha ha
To the happy home
With tree and flowers and chirping birds
And basket weavers who sit and smile
And twiddle their thumbs and toes
And I´m happy they took you away, HA-HAAA!
You burned my food
You wrecked the house
And this is how I´ve paid you back
For all your cruel, unloving selfish deeds!
HAH...
They´ve got you now
And you´ll get just
What you deserve
For calling me a mutt, you mangy man!
AND...
I´m happy they took you away, haha
I´m happy they took you away, ho ho, hee hee, ha ha
To the funny farm
Where life´s hysterical all the time
And you´ll be sorry I sent
Those nice, young men
In their clean, white coats
And I´m happy they took you away, HA-HAAA!
To the happy home
With trees and flowers and chirping birds
And basket weavers who sit and smile
And twiddle their thumbs and toes
And I´m happy they took you away, HA-HAAA!
To the funny farm
Where life´s hysterical all the time
And you´ll be sorry I sent
Those nice, young men
In theit clean white coats
And I´m happy they took you away, HA-HAAA!


------------------------------------------------------------------
They´re coming to get me again, Ha-haaa!
Napoleon the 14th

Remember when they took me
To the funny farm
For acting like a lunatic
Because you ran away?
HAH?
Well that was many years ago
And now at last they´ve let me out
I´ve finally made them think
I´m perfectly sane
BUT...
They´re coming to get me again, haha
They´re coming to take me away again, hee hee, ho ho
To the looney bin
Where life was ludicrous all the time
And I´m just crazy about
Those big strong goons
With their clean white necks
´Cause they´re coming to get me again, HA-HAAA!
I thought you were my friend
And so I trusted you
Believed in you
The day you swore you´d always be my pet
BUT...
I trusted you, you know I did
I did, I really did
But then you hit
And I´m not really totally cured
SO...
They´re coming to get me again, haha
They´re coming to put me away again, hoo hoo, hey hey
In a rubber room
With fleas and cowards and burping nerds
And pimple poppers who sweat and snear
And squiggle and speeze and squirt
And they´re coming to get me again, HA-HAAA!
I scrubbed your toes
I cleaned your cage
But all you ever did was pay me back
With cruel unloving selfish deeds
YES...
Well now I´m free
So just wait
I´ll find you soon
And when I do I´ll swing you by your tail you hairy ape!
AND...
They´re coming to get me again, haha
They´re coming to take me away again, hee hee, ho ho
To the looney bin
Where life was ludicrous all the time
And I´m just crazy about
Those big strong goons
With their clean white necks
´Cause they´re coming to get me again, HA-HAAA!
To the rubber room
With fleas and cowards and burping nerds
And pimple poppers who sweat and snear
And squiggle and sqeeze and squirt
And they´re coming to get me again, HA-HAAA!
To the looney bin
Where life was ludicrous all the time
And I´m just crazy about
Those big strong goons
With their clean white necks
´Cause they´re coming to get me again, HA-HAAA!
To the happy home
With trees and flowers and chirping birds
And basket weavers...
To the funny farm
Where life was beautiful all the time
And I´ll be ha-a-appy...
OH, NO!