 sj |
||
|
||
BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
|
|
|
Subject: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Bobert Date: 17 Apr 04 - 10:18 PM Less than 48 hours after Sharon and Bush declare their *new and imprived* roadmap for peace, Isreal has assisinated the newly elevated leader of Hamas, Abdfelazia Rantisi... And the beat goes on... Like, what roadmap these folks reading? Kill everyone and declare victory, 'er what.... Okay, Teribus, et al. Tell us just how evil Ranitisi was so you feel better. Yeah, get it off yer chests... Friggin' studidity as far as I can see... Bobert |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Israel Wastes no Time.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 Apr 04 - 11:03 PM Israel has been out of control for a number of years. It is possible to say this without being anti-semitic (a defensive accusation frequently made by those who support Israel no matter what they do). The government there does as much as it can to offend it's nearest neighbors and Palestinan citizens and subjects, then says "stop! Right now, we want peace!" They do this at a point when everyone is too worked up to even consider it. It's like they want to get in their last licks before making everyone else stop. It's schoolyard bully tactics. SRS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 Apr 04 - 12:06 AM ...and now Bush has given total support... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 18 Apr 04 - 01:35 AM Where will it ever end. Bush has given support to Sharon, who has taken that support to include knocking out anyone it feels is a threat. There is no way any movement towards peace can be had in these circumstances. Blair has tried to support Bush on the Iraq issue but has also tried to push GWB towards peace settlement in Israel and Palestine. I guess this is now totally at an end. Did Bush offer his support to Sharon in the hope of getting more of the Jewish vote in the US. If so it could be a bitter bowl of tea. Becuase of Sharons actions more Jews will be targeted for suicide bombings and shootings in Israel, and of course then the Palestinians will be targeted again by the Israeli forces. The circle just gets more viscious and unbreakable. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Metchosin Date: 18 Apr 04 - 03:28 AM Ah Bobert, can't a couple of guys have a bit of fun doing some offroading? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ellenpoly Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:56 AM Shanghaiceltic, your last paragraph? You betcha..xx..e |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Georgiansilver Date: 18 Apr 04 - 08:52 AM Hey folks...Israels main currency used to be the Shekel but it has been the dollar..the American Dollar...for many years now......what does that tell you?? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:08 AM SRS, in the UK many in the Jewish community have long been aghast at Sharon's behaviour - and their views are significant because they cannot be tainted with "anti-semite" smears. A prominent Jewish politician in the UK, Gerald Kaufman, had a big op-ed piece in the maniacally rightwing (London) Daily Mail on Friday, and I hesitated to read it, having been irritated in the past by his(to my mind) unwarrentedly pro-Israeli line. In fact on this occasion he was lambasting the Sharon-Bush fix, and indeed Sharon himself, in unequivocal terms. And that was before the latest outrage. To be fair though, the latest guy taken out by helcopter gunship was not in a wheelchair, so Sharon's "heroes" really are getting quite brave. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:18 AM Various pundits saying how this is going to be self-defeating, because it will lead to retaliatioin in which more Isaeklis will be killed. That strikes me as very naive, since it is pretty clear that that is what it it intended to achieve, as a way of strengthening Hamas and ensuring that a negotiated settlement can be avoided. Short-term, it's brutal but makes some kind of sense. Longterm, well that's a bit differemt. There's no longterm future for Israel down this road. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST,Joseph Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:14 AM I figured someone would start a thread lamenting the loss of a valuable member of 'Palestininan' aristocracy. If Osama is found will erasing his malign presence also be an 'assassination'. My heartfelt congratulations to Israel on erasing a nasty bug, terminating an excresence called a 'leader'. My your aim continue to be good, your arms firm, your defenses stronger. ngadla! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:27 AM Another guest comes trolling. [yawn] Peter, there are Jewish groups in the U.S. who are also appalled at what Bush and Sharon and their ilk are doing. In psychiatric circles, it is common knowledge that a child who is abused by a parent frequently grows up to abuse his own children. Israel, a nation based on a population fleeing inhumanity in many nations of the world, has grown into an abusive parent itself. It can't see what it's doing, and seems to know no other way to negotiate through it's world. It's time to stop looking the other way because of the abused childhood and start holding the adult/parent responsible for his own acts. They're criminal acts, they are short sighted retribution. They are nihilistic--another part of the problem. SRS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:45 AM SRS: Similar remarks were made when Israel captured Eichmann and took him for trial in Israel. I would think it's hard to kiss and make up with someone who has killed so many of your children. Not saying it's right, just saying it's reality. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Wolfgang Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:51 AM I'm with the majority here, but a minor point: McGrath, for someone who once has made an issue of the spelling 'Iraquis' in this thread the spelling 'Isaeklis' is a tiny bit below standard. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 18 Apr 04 - 12:16 PM I would think it's hard to kiss and make up with someone who has killed so many of your children. One could use the same sort of reasoning to rationalize the behavior of Hamas. Not saying it's right, just saying it's reality. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 04 - 12:45 PM True. However, that provides no rationale for leaving the guy unharmed. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Metchosin Date: 18 Apr 04 - 12:57 PM huh? Oh I get it...."an eye for an eye" sort of stuff....alright, then how about the logical follow up of "toothless and blind"? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 04 - 01:01 PM That's true, too. And we come to the question that keeps rearing its ugly head. Who will deal with the criminals? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 18 Apr 04 - 01:18 PM International court. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 04 - 01:47 PM OK, we got liftoff. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Apr 04 - 02:44 PM Unless we are truly indigenous, we all live in glass houses, brucie, when it comes to how we or our ancestors have dealt with the Other people who previously inhabited places where we want[ed] to live. A very strong connection can be drawn between how Americans in general (with, of course, notable exceptions) and the American military dealt with, and (if they think about them as living populations at all) still deal with, American Indians. If you read the literature you will see that many Indians still consider themselves to be a colonized population. The reservations that are set aside are managed (very poorly) by the federal government, there are many instances when the government has suppressed and imprisoned tribal leaders who fight for fair and truthful treatment (Leonard Peltier, for example--it is clear to many within and without the community involved with Pine Ridge II that the FBI got away with murder, literally). The Israelis colonized Palestine, and have proceeded to treat the native population like noisome pests. There have been glimmers of improvement, but it is my opinion that as long as the same Americans who treat their own indigenous citizens the way they do support the Israelis in their relationship with Palestinians and their Arab nation neighbors, there can be no improvement. SRS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:30 PM True, but that is not a trait of either state you mention. Same in Canada, Iraq, India, China, etc. Big fish eat little fish. I'm am not excusing it, but I don't feel sorry for Rantisi. He order the deaths of lots of kids. May he make his peace with his God. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Gareth Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:40 PM A Good Shot ! BTW - and it could only come from a mock intellectual poseur like Fionn, why should the fact that a murderer is confined to a wheel chair give him imunity from what would appear to be retribution. Or has Fionn forgotten, yet again. some of his other posts ? Gareth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:55 PM Just in case you "Anybody But Bush" Dems were wondering (and I'm sure you're not), Kerry came out in support of the new Sharon/Bush plan AND of the assassination of any and all Hamas leaders today. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST Date: 18 Apr 04 - 07:11 PM The manipulation of the Palistinian and Israeli people by their respective leaders,has reduced these people to savages,who lust for blood and pain ,to give their lives some meaning. Iv just finished reading the diaries of three SS men who helped run the extermination camp of Auschwitz. The most horrific fact to come through in their writing,and it even disgusted the SS, was the treatment handed out to their own people by the "trusties" whom the Germans used to run the camp. Apparently they would try to outdo one another in acts of barbarity to gain favour with their captors. It just shows how thin the veneer of "civilisation" is, and how we pawns can be made to do anything to please our political masters. In the Palistinian Israeli conflict ,right and wrong have been long forgotten. Death and destruction are the politicians tools ...Ake |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Apr 04 - 07:24 PM Yes, it's called "divide and conquer". Unscrupulous leaders have been employing such tactics for thousands of years in order to further their own search for power and control. Some of them even believe their own rhetoric while they send others out to murder...by bomb or tank, gun or helicopter. "Isreal"? (sic) No, is phony! Is not in the interests of peace or humanity. "Hamas"? No. A sham. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 18 Apr 04 - 07:45 PM SRS: You make valid points re: the U S , Native Americans, and treatment thereof. However, when it comes to Israel and Palestinians I think one has to look at history---history of thousands of years past. Therein lies the problem. This is not the same as the U S and the Native Americans. Rather, it has to do with that ancient history as well as the will of the nations of the world--or something called the UN in seeking a viable solution to an age old problem and justice for displaced people. By the way---as side topic. The area is a hot-bed that we cannot possibly convert to our image. I urge you to read Frank Rich in today's NY Times and his history of Irag (the artificial country--since it was Mesopotania until the events that made an Iraq. Not to mention the Bush involvement there) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 18 Apr 04 - 08:45 PM Guest 6:55 makes a good point. I was appalled at Kerry's refusal to criticise the Bush/Sharon "deal". I can hardly comprehend you Americans pathetic belief that a change of president will solve all the problems. You're in the shit, up to the "oxters" and it will take more than a bit of window dressing to put things right. Islam is the "American nightmare", not George bush. Its time you people took a serious look at your political system, stopped singing about the flag, and praising the "Make-good" society. Maybe then you'll earn some respect from the starving and dispossessed of this world....Ake |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Apr 04 - 08:45 PM Bill, when people start doing the math regarding the death of Indians at the hands of both non-Indians and of other Indians in alliance with the whites (it is always a mistake to assume all Indians think alike or cooperated among themselves) millions died. It's folly to try to compare genocide to genocide and one is not more valid than another. Disabuse yourself of that in a hurry, please. How shall we do this math? Thousands a year die over (2-3)thousands of years (amounting to millions), or millions die over (6)hundreds of years? Can you really say one is more egregious than the other? I think not. The point is, the U.S. is in no position itself to go telling other nations how to fix their problems. They have never fixed their own. SRS |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 18 Apr 04 - 08:55 PM SRS: I am in agreement re: your thinking of the U S vis a vis Native Americans. But, as you surely know, history and life are fluid and evolve. My comments were more to the historical facts of Israel (Palestine) history and its evolution into political agreements by the community of nations. We could discuss 1948 at length, since that is where all this stems from. I would surely recommend reading the book by Michael Oren about the 1967 War and other tomes prior to that ==including the writings of Abba Eban for some more insights into the situation. Granted, I have recommended 2 works by Israelis (one is and expatriate American). That said I will add that, to me, the sad thing is that Rabin's plans were cut short with his assasination and also Clinton's initiative in trying to fine a legitimate solution. Sadly, now, we are involved with Hawks---from Dubya to Sharon. Bill Hahn |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: dianavan Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:03 PM "Kerry came out in support of the new Sharon/Bush plan AND of the assassination of any and all Hamas leaders today." Hmmm - If this is true, do you really think voting for Kerry is really going to change anything? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Apr 04 - 10:13 PM Let's see the citation on that, please. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 18 Apr 04 - 10:18 PM Voting for Kerry will not change anything re: Israel/Palestine. It won't change much with regard to whether or not the US wages more pre-emptive wars on other countries, except that under a Kerry administration, such wars will probably not be actually called "wars". But the agenda will be substantially the same as it is now under Bush. I'd say you can count on that. And the reason for that is that US presidents aren't allowed to be anything but puppets. It's the string pullers who set the agendas. We in the US don't get to vote for or against the string pullers. Democracy has been dead in the US for many years, if it ever really existed at all. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 18 Apr 04 - 10:24 PM BTW, akenaton, Islam isn't our nightmare. Our nightmare is the powerful corporate interests who set the agendas and pull the strings. They also happen to be your nightmare, but you perhaps don't know it yet. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ellenpoly Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:43 AM akenaton, I do understand your fury, but the words "you people" always concerns me. I was born in American, as were many who post here, and I really dislike being clumped into this kind of generality. Americans are a mixed bag of people who are on both sides of any dispute going. Please don't fall into this kind of rhetoric for your own sake. I'm not sure where you reside, but I doubt "you people" are completely blameless of the nightmares surrounding us, if you get my drift....speaking only for ME, of course..xx..e |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Apr 04 - 07:12 AM Eichmann wasn't assassinated, he was put on trial. That would be the right way to deal with leaders accused of instigating terrorist attacks, such as Rantisi. Or Sharon - decribed by the Israeli commission of inquiry following the Sabra and Shatila massacres as "unfit to hold public office". The goal of these killings isn't to eliminate organisations committed to violent resistance - it is to strengthen them, and to undermine the possibility of any kind of alternative strategy of resistance on the part of the Palestinians, which might be a more formidable opponent. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 19 Apr 04 - 07:19 AM Carol...Im sure you dont misunderstand my position.I agree wholeheartedly with almost everything you write on this issue,and by American nightmare I did mean the effect of fundamentalism on American business interests. Most of the American people seem to be so naive ,as to have no power at all. Ellen..Im sorry if I have offended, and meant nothing personal,but the political attitude of most Americans, even the very intelligent ones who post here,seems to lack understanding of whats really being done to them. Some people say that this naivity is charming,and so it is in some circumstances,but the beasts who control you,love the taste of it....Ake |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ringer Date: 19 Apr 04 - 07:46 AM Any evidence to back up either of these conspiracy theories? CarolC's "Bush is merely a puppet...", or McGrath of Harlow's "Assassinate Hamas leaders to strengthen Hamas so a really effective resistance can't form..." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: ard mhacha Date: 19 Apr 04 - 08:27 AM Britains newspaper of the year, the Daily Mirror had an article by Paul Routledge on Saturday which lambasted Tony Blair`s kow-towing to Bush, Routledge`s heading was " Premier creeps to eejit Texan" and he went on to say, " Tony Blair last night took on the full-time job of cheerleader for George Bush in his bid to be re-elected president of the USA. It was embarrassing. More than that, it should disgust every voter in the United Kingdom where- if Blair has his way- our destiny is tied to the murderous bully-boys in Washington. Last night, Blair bought totally into the campaign for the re-lection of the President. He emeged as the true CREEP to George Bush. Bush called him " a stand kind of guy", standing up for what?, The perpetuation of hard-line right-wing Republican polotics that crooked it`s way through the last Presidental election and now aims to buy it`s way into future power. Can it really be right that a Labour Prime Minister should articulate the scumbag direction of politics directed by Bush?,. . Routledge in his hard hitting article decribed Blair as going along with, US policy despite the fact that he [Blair] is being humilated, and is tagging along as Bush`s lap-dog. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 19 Apr 04 - 01:02 PM Calling it a "conspiracy theory", Ringer, is just an attempt to divert attention away from the real issues through the use of a thinly veiled argumentum ad hominem. All you have to do is follow the money to know what's really going on. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Apr 04 - 01:39 PM When you do something, and it is pretty obvious that it is going to have certain results, it is reasonable to assume that these results are part of your intention in carrying out that action. The terrorists on both sides - within the IDA and Al Hamas etc - make claims that their intention is that their violence will deter the other side. However this seems so self-evidently contradicted by what actually happens that it requires a very convoluted kind of reasoning to accept it. The simpler explanation is that in both cases the actual intention is to achieve what is achieved - to ensure that the extremists on the other side have their position bolstered, and that nothing will interfere with the continuing war which ensures their own power. I am a bit puzzled by the way the term "conspiracy theory" is thrown around. A "conspiracy" just means that a number of people collectively agree that something should be done, and that they require a degree of confidentiality. That is what happens in all politics and in all business. All attempts from outside to understand what is going on are therefore by definition "conpiracy theories". Some of these are right and some are wrong, that's all. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Wolfgang Date: 19 Apr 04 - 02:15 PM From Sharon's point of view to order the killing made sense: He'll be more likely to get a majority in two weeks within Likud for his separation plan. I doubt he looks much further and considers other consequences. In one of his last interviews Rantisi said (my translation from German): "It is not up to Sharon to determine when I have to die, it is up to Allah's will." When he was killed, the people on the street interviewed said "Sharon is going to pay for that." Since I first saw the interview when he was dead the two quotes were in nearly direct succession and left me puzzled deeply. Wolfgang |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ringer Date: 19 Apr 04 - 03:45 PM No evidence, then. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:04 PM Congratulations to Israel for their fine aim at eliminating another Hamas terrorist. Hamas won't even say who their next leader is going to be. Wonderful! Their group is disintegrating Let's make Israel the 51st state. Fine with me! I am pleased that Bush backs Israel. Hats off to Sharon. We are just not going to be bullied by them or anyone else, anymore. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:17 PM Mr Gibsons post above,giving a fine analysis of the current Palistinian/Israeli conflict,does much to confirm my previously posted opinion of American political theory...Ake |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:19 PM 51st State? wouldn't it be easier to transfer the whole shebang to one of the existing 50, and everyone could be happy? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:39 PM Martin Gibson writes: "I am pleased that Bush backs Israel. Hats off to Sharon. We are just not going to be bullied by them or anyone else, anymore." Bullshit! As long as Jews in America continue to pour billions of dollars into American political coffers, American politicians will continue to cowtow to Isreal. And that means both parties. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:59 PM
No, not in the least. Quite the opposite, in fact. They are being forced underground, where attempts at reason and negotiation are much more difficult. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 19 Apr 04 - 10:10 PM On the contrary, Ringer. For my assertion, that Bush is a puppet, here is all the evidence you need: http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Disinfopedia As I said before, all you have to do is follow the money. Martin Gibson, I think I would consider voting for that proposal. Then all of the people in Israel would be subject to the same laws and the same constitutional protections that those of us in the US currently enjoy. Of course, it would also guarantee that Muslim and Arab immigrants would have the same rights and access to citizenship as Jews. And it would also mean the end of Isreal as "The Jewish State", because that clearly is unconstitutional under the US constitution. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ellenpoly Date: 20 Apr 04 - 04:14 AM Akenaton, I beg you not to believe that all Americans are represented by anyone at mudcat, and certainly not by Mr Gibson. He speaks for himself, which is his right. At the same time, it is simply not true that Americans are incapable of seeing the reality of the world around them. Many do, but many, like me, have become so disenchanted with our government's policies not just during this administration, but for the past several decades of blunders, bullying, and general forms of imperialism that has run rampant globally, taking up where Britain left off. Sometimes I think that by moving around the world as I have for the past thirty-odd years, I'll find somewhere to hide from it all, having given up feeling I can make any difference to what seems to be humanities' slide into self destruction...But there is no place to run anymore, and my eyes, and many like me both out and inside of America, look on and weep as a country of such possibilities continues to be at the forefront of tearing apart our world. I'm not at all naive, akenaton, just without much hope..xx.e |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 04 - 04:43 AM The people of Israel will continue to live in their ancestral home. Not in America, nor anywhere else. There will be a peceful coexistence , eventually, with the Palestinian State which will arise by the side of Israel.Prabably after much more bloodshed. Assasination is wrong and should not be performed. Rantisi was no elected political leader but a vile murderer, head of a terror organisation , avowed to the destruction of Israel, who organised and trained young people to perform acts of indiscriminate suicide bombing, no matter where no matter when. It was not possible to apprehend him and bring him to justice. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Teribus Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:46 AM The targeted assassinations of both Yassin and Rantisi were part of a long standing Israeli defence strategy. Leading members of terrorist organisations engaged in attacks against Israel have been targeted and killed throughout the last fifty years, so this is nothing new - business as usual. What is different in these particular cases is the stage and circumstances, internationally, at the time of their deaths, that makes one wonder if the consequences of those actions were fully thought out and the pros and cons weighed. Take a look at what those might be for the Israeli Government, any Israeli Government. 1. They have long held to their belief that the Palestinian Authority under the leadership of Yasser Arafat is totally ineffectual because Arafat refuses to provide leadership for his people. But, inconveniently, he is the elected representative of the Palestinian people (very poor, imprecise term that, as no such people actually exist, it's like saying, those who live in London are a "nation" or "a people"). Arafat survives on keeping the pot boiling while not being seen to be actively stoking the fire or stirring it, he will not act openly against the terrorists in his midst for fear of losing power, so he allows the situation to drift, blaming all his ills on Israeli retaliation to terrorist attacks that Arafat should have been doing his utmost to prevent. Meanwhile the Palestinian Authority receives more in international aid and funding than any other group in the world - the Palestinians see precious little of it - Arafat controls the purse strings, his security forces are paid in cash, no budget, no records, no accounting - in this way he manages to walk the political tight-rope, make a bit of money on the side (no, change that to make a heap load of money on the side), and keep his Al-Aqsa Brigade in funds (policemen by day, wannabe-martyrs by night). The Israeli's know that as long as the above situation prevails any agreement reached between the Israeli Government and the Palestinian Authority is not worth the paper it is printed on, because in the back-ground they will still have the likes of Al-Aqsa Brigade; Hamas; Hezbollah; Islamic Jihad; etc, to deal with. 2. Target presents itself of the two highest profile members of Hamas (Yassin and Rantisi). Israel knows the full consequence of taking both out of the picture: - Massive outpouring of international condemnation - no problem there they have been the recipient of such condemnation in the past, doesn't worry them, from their perspective they are fighting as much for national survival now as they were in 1948, nothing has changed. - Outrage within the ranks of the terrorist organisations and the Arab world in general. Again nothing new there, it may however further impress on the minds of the Palestinians that Arafat and the Palestinian Authority are all ineffectual, men of straw. It may divert Palestinian support from Arafat to the likes of Hamas to such an extent that the Palestinians replace Arafat. The Israelis then are dealing with what they see as the "opposition" at the heart of the matter. It forces Hamas to become more "political" - might not appear to be a good thing in the short term, but in the long run they will then end up talking to a group that can make any form agreement reached hold. If Hamas, persist in adhering to their well stated aim - the complete destruction of the State of Israel - then at least that is the issue and it is completely out in the open for the entire world to see it for what it actually is. MGOH "The terrorists on both sides - within the IDA (IDF?) and Al Hamas etc - make claims that their intention is that their violence will deter the other side." I believe that the actions of the IDF are meant to deter attacks against Israeli civilians. The attacks by Al-Aqsa; Hamas; Hezbollah; Islamic Jihad; et al, are not, nor have they ever been, to deter IDF response, quite the reverse, they are speficifally designed to provoke massive response by the IDF - they want war, they want to completely destroy Israel. Unfortunately, for the likes of Hamas, the Israeli's are not about to let that happen. What was promised in the aftermath of Yassin's assassination? What has been promised in the wake of Rantisi's killing? I know you are a believer in worser than worst, but in actual fact the Israeli's walking the streets of Israel's towns and cities are under no greater threat today than they have been for the last four years at least. I listened to Rantisi's son on television predicting a terrible retribution, waves of suicide bombings and attacks on Israel - I will bet the farm that he is not one of their number. For such duties they will recruit and send, the young, the impressionable, the gullible, the innocent - all of whom, the likes of Arafat, Hamas, etc, say they are fighting for - I am only pleased that they are not representing, fighting for, or protecting me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:07 PM Meanwhile the Palestinian Authority receives more in international aid and funding than any other group in the world Teribus, you're talking out yer ass again. The Palestinians receive about $500 million per year in international aid. Israel receives between three to four BILLION dollars per year in outright grants from the US, and many billions of dollars per year in other kinds of assistance such as guaranteed loans (which, by the way are not always paid back, and the US ends up footing the bill). |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Teribus Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:14 PM CarolC, please read what is written - last I knew Israel happens to be a COUNTRY, not a group. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:17 PM Nicely split hair ther, Teribus. You have a rare talent for misdirection. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Teribus Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:21 PM Not a split-hair CarolC, merely a fact, no misdirection intended. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:28 PM The distinction is completely irrelevant to the discussion. The only purpose it can serve is to give people a false impression about the facts on the ground. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:39 PM I thought Arafat had $300,000,000 of that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Teribus Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:08 PM Now let's see - a false impression of the facts on the ground 1. It is false to say that the Palestinian Authority do receive a whole ruck of money, that somehow never seems to get to those who need it? 2. You're right brucie, Arafat at the last reckoning had managed to acquire a fortune of some $300,000,000 - he must have a good stock-broker - or perhaps it's a false impression of the facts on the ground - but bank balances seldom lie. 3. Perhaps it's false to say that the Palestinian Authority have never been able to offer up to those who provide aid, detailed accounts of what their money has been spent on. But those dealing with Palestinian aid within the EU have never been able to obtain any. 4. It's false to say that Arafat will not relinquish operational and financial control of the Palestinian Authorities security forces? He lost his first Prime Minister Abu Mazan precisely over this issue. It however, remains a fact that his security forces are paid in cash and that no records are kept - so no-one, apart from Arafat and his closest circle, has any clue how much has been spent, where it has been spent (We do know he spent about $15,000,000 in Iran a good few months ago - the IDF intercepted the weapons shipment) and for what purpose it has been spent. Another false impression of the facts on the ground? Would I buy a used camel from Yasser Arafat? Hells teeth, I wouldn't even sell him one. Toddle off and do some research carolC - take a look at how, and why, Hamas was founded - there are two "branches of that particular organisation - one of them exists purely to dole out relief aid to the Palestinians that Arafat and Co are robbing blind and have been doing for decades - probably another false impression of the facts on the ground. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:25 PM 1. It is false to say that the Palestinian Authority do receive a whole ruck of money, that somehow never seems to get to those who need it? It certainly is not entirey true. The Palestinian Authority used to have a well developed infrastructure that included schools, hospitals, police departments, and other normal structures of civil society. During the Israeli incursion into the Occupied Territories in spring of 2002, the IDF specifically targeted these civil structures. In these cases, the money got where it was supposed to go, but the government of Israel used my tax dollars to destroy them. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: ard mhacha Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:28 PM Toddle off, lovely fella,--- no long winded prattle, straight to the point. The US and its lap-dogs are sinking ever deeper in the mire, and is the world a safer place from the US blindering, planless, murderous invasion of Iraq?, well not from were I am sitting. Teribus did you look in on Bush`s press conference?, were you impressed?, I haven`t seen you exress an opinion, c`mon, what are you waiting for, some more gems of wisdom from your warrior hero?. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Teribus Date: 20 Apr 04 - 02:20 PM "Arafat survives on keeping the pot boiling while not being seen to be actively stoking the fire or stirring it, he will not act openly against the terrorists in his midst for fear of losing power, so he allows the situation to drift, blaming all his ills on Israeli retaliation to terrorist attacks that Arafat should have been doing his utmost to prevent." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 20 Apr 04 - 03:13 PM That's right, cowardly Guest who wrote: "Bullshit! As long as Jews in America continue to pour billions of dollars into American political coffers, American politicians will continue to cowtow to Isreal. And that means both parties" We've got the money, honey and we've got the time. We've got the attention of the leaders of America that we are not going to get pushed around by Hamas or any other terrorist groups. As for driving them underground where they can't negotiate, sorry pal, Israel has been trying to talk sense to these guys for a long time and what do they get, another blown up bus or shopping mall. No, I may not speak for all of America, because there are obviously those here who hate Israel, but right now I hope we help them all we can. Deal with it. America is not going to let Israel down. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 20 Apr 04 - 03:16 PM Carol C. They used my tax dollars also. Tough shit. Don't like how your tax dollars are being used? Get a candidate to support your own agenda. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 03:16 PM The government of Israel keeps Arafat in power by keeping the pot boiling under him because he makes a perfect scapegoat whom they can blame for all of the problems that they, themselves, are causing with the occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, by the destruction of the Palestinians' civil infrastructure, with the expansion of settlements, with the violence against civilians in the Occupied Territories by the IDF and the settlers, by the destruction of many thousands of Palestinian homes, orchards, farmlands, and other means of livlihood, by the confiscation of land from Palestinians both within the Occupied Territories as well as with Israel itself, by the construction of "Jewish only" roads and other facilities in the Occupied Territories, by denying the Palestinians in the occupied territories access to water, by the closures and roadblocks that don't protect Israel from anyting, but instead, just keep Palestinians from moving around freely within their own designated areas, and numerous other violations of the Palestinians. All of these things serve one aim, and one aim only. Getting all of the Palestinians out of Israel and the Occupied Territories. The government of Israel may not have this as their "stated" agenda, but their actions speak much louder than their words. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 20 Apr 04 - 03:33 PM Well Carol, C. why don't you pull up the trailer, put it on a boat and go over there to help Palestine in their "Moslem only, I'll gladly blow myself up for Allah state of Jewish hate." They would welcome an American sympathizer like you, wouldn't they? You have all of the answers and the mindset to be a great leader for them, I do believe. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 04:00 PM Martin, the Palestinians don't want a "Muslim only" state. They want a state for Palestinians, whether they are Muslim, Christian, or Jewish. There are Christian Palestinians, and there used to be Jewish Palestinians too, before the creation of the State of Israel, when I guess they chose to become Israelis. The Jews, Muslims, and Christians were getting along just fine in that place until the Europeans showed up. That's when people started hating each other. Don't like how your tax dollars are being used? Get a candidate to support your own agenda. Interesting idea, Martin. What do you think might happen to a US politician who tried to eliminate, or even reduce US financial aid to Israel? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 20 Apr 04 - 04:03 PM It is wrong to keep talking about Palestinians as a country. They have no borders, no constitution, no currency, no hierarchy of leadership, no embassys, no ambassadors, no seat in the UN, etc, etc. The palestinians under Arafat are a terroist organization- or if you prefer the front group for a number of terrorist organizations-Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad etc. They should be dealt with as a terrorist- not as a nation. Bill Clinton made a major mistake when he tried to deal with Bin Laden as a legal issue rather than as a terrorist. He turned down the deal from Sudan because he didn't know if he had enough evidence to prosecute him in a court case. It he dealt with Bin Laden as a terrorist there would not have been a 9/11. Anyone who equates the killing of Palestian terrorist as the same level of homicide bombers who kill innocent woman and children in shopping malls and cafes is anit semitic or brain dead. That description fits 90% of the United Nations. Two terrorists in Virgina paralized the United States for months until they were caught. Yet these same people criticize Israel for wanting to defend their land. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 04:10 PM It is wrong to keep talking about Palestinians as a country. They have no borders, no constitution, no currency, no hierarchy of leadership, no embassys, no ambassadors, no seat in the UN, etc, etc. And just whose fault is that? None other than the governments of the US, Britain, and Israel. There was a time in the world's history when the Jews didn't have any of those thing either. But would you accept the fact that they never had them before as a legitimate reason to deny it to them when they first did have them? I doubt it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST,C-watch Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:49 PM Martin, the Palestinians don't want a "Muslim only" state. They want a state for Palestinians, whether they are Muslim, Christian, or Jewish. I don't know how you can generalize about what "the Palestinians" want. At this point in time, Hamas philosophy guides a large segment of Palestinian society, and that's certainly not what Hamas wants. According to Hamas, every inch of Israel is part of their exclusively-Islamic state of Palestine. Read these excerpts from the Hamas Covenant and perhaps you'll have a better clue as to what Israel is up against. 'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble) 'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.' (Article 6) 'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.' (Article 7) 'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.' (Article 11) 'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be...[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13) 'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15) 'The enemies have been scheming for a long time... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it.' (Article 22) 'Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle... Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act...Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'...HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews.' (Article 32) 'Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about.' (Article 33) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:54 PM Carol C. asked: "What do you think might happen to a US politician who tried to eliminate, or even reduce US financial aid to Israel?" I wouldn't vote for him, nor I believe any one with any common sense would. Go find your candidate who supports your beliefs. He doesn't exist. You bet there was a time when the Jews didn't have a country. They have it now. It was given to them legally with the sanction of the United Nations. To Larry K. Your questions and comments are absolutely right on. Carol c. will do as much as she can to justify her anti-Israel agenda. don't fall into her trap. She is the champion for all things Palestinian. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 06:37 PM You bet there was a time when the Jews didn't have a country. They have it now. It was given to them legally with the sanction of the United Nations. Only the part that is within the pre-1967 borders, Martin. And it is the part that the UN didn't give to Israel, the part outside the Green Line, that I am concerned with in discussions like this one. (And the UN has made it very clear that Israel is in violation of UN resolutions by occupying the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem). I don't know how you can generalize about what "the Palestinians" want. At this point in time, Hamas philosophy guides a large segment of Palestinian society, and that's certainly not what Hamas wants. According to Hamas, every inch of Israel is part of their exclusively-Islamic state of Palestine. And to the extent that Israel undermines the Palestinian Authority and denies the Palestinians their own independent state (and destroys the Palestinians' civil institutions), they cause ever increasing numbers of Palestinians to become radicalized and embrace the philosophy of Hamas. If the government of Israel really wanted to get rid of Hamas, it would be supporting the Palestinian Authority and helping the Palestinians acheive their goal of having an independent state. That would give the majority of Palestinians the incentive to fight against Hamas themselves. As it is now, they have nothing. But the majority of Palestinians just want to be left alone to live in peace (and they have agreed to do it within the pre-1967 borders), just as the majority of Jews (worldwide) and Israelis (Jewish and non-Jewish) want to be left alone to live in peace. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 06:46 PM I wouldn't vote for him, nor I believe any one with any common sense would. Go find your candidate who supports your beliefs. He doesn't exist. Actually, he does exist, and there is a very good chance that I will be voting for him on election day. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 20 Apr 04 - 07:19 PM 1967. Whay does that year ring a bell. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 04 - 07:32 PM Maybe because it was the year that you got your lobotomy. No? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: freda underhill Date: 20 Apr 04 - 07:35 PM GUEST - go jump. 1967 - from BBC news On This Day.. 1967: Israel launches attack on Arab states Israeli forces have launched a pre-emptive attack on the country's neighbouring Arab states including the destruction of nearly 400 Egypt based military aircraft. Fighting broke out on the Israel-Egypt border but then quickly spread to involve other neighbouring Arab states with ground and air troops becoming embroiled in battle. Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkol said in a statement that the Egyptian Air Force had taken a great beating and Jordan and Syrian air forces had been largely destroyed. The attack follows a build-up of Arab military forces along the Israeli border. The Arab states had been preparing to go to war against Israel with Egypt, Jordan and Syria being aided by Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Algeria. On 27 May the President of Egypt, Abdel Nasser, declared: "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight." Egypt signed a pact with Jordan at the end of May declaring an attack on one was an attack on both. This was seen by Israel as a clear sign of preparation for all-out war. Fleeing Israel took decisive action today claiming the element of surprise was the only way it could stand any chance of defending itself against the increasing threat from neighbouring states. Israeli troops claim to have captured the key town of El Anish in north Sinai and are now advancing towards Abu Gela. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are said to be fleeing the crossfire in the West Bank. So far the US state department has announced, "Our position is neutral in thought, word and deed." This follows its recent stance declaring Israel would not be alone unless it decided to go it alone. The path for war was cleared on 16 May when President Nasser ordered the withdrawal of the United Nations Emergency Forces from the Egyptian-Israeli border. In Context The assault ended on 10 June and became known as the six-day war - it changed the face of the Middle East conflict. At the end of the war Israel had succeeded in almost doubling the amount of territory it controlled. Israel seized Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt in the south and the Golan Heights from Syria in the north. It also pushed Jordanian forces out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The total number of casualties was estimated at 100,000. Egypt and Jordan are the only Arab nations that have since made peace with Israel. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/5/newsid_2654000/2654251.stm) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 07:38 PM And it is in violation of international law to which Israel is a signatory, for any country to colonize land that it has occupied. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Backstage Manager(inactive) Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:36 PM Reading through the passages from the Hamas covenant is, indeed, very scary and a window into what the Israelis are up against. Even scarier than the excerpts provided by C-Watch is the full document. I found it |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Backstage Manager(inactive) Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:38 PM Sorry, I hit the "Submit Message" button when I meant to click on "Make a link." Here is what I meant to post. Reading through the passages from the Hamas covenant is, indeed, very scary and a window into what the Israelis are up against. Even scarier than the excerpts provided by C-Watch is the full document. I found it linked here. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 04 - 09:19 PM Martin Gibson, who is so closed minded he wouldn't know the truth if it hit him in the ass, says: "You bet there was a time when the Jews didn't have a country. They have it now. It was given to them legally with the sanction of the United Nations." Well, there you go again! You, through your constant support of Bush, will certainly support his remarks about how worthless the United Nations are, so by extension this must have been another mistake by the UN! Now go ahead and use the same spin your Bushie does to get out of this one. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:35 PM Actualy, hair breath Guest, I really do not support Bush for everything as you so stupidly claim. You obviously are making futile stabs at knowing me, which you, ahem, fucking don't. But I do support his backing of Israel, you fuck faced coward with no name, and I do hope he gives them enough money to completely destroy Hamas. What do you think, everything the UN has done is wrong? You have shit for brains, oh cowardly Guest. Long live Israel. Death to Hamas. Whatever it takes to rid the middle east of terrorists. Attention anti-Israel posters: You are wasting your time and your seething hate on this topic! American Jews have war chests of honestly earned dollars to help support Israel and politicians who are LISTENING to us. As I love to say, deal with it. I might not vote for Bush. But then again, I might. Carol C., by all means vote for the candidate you think will win. Is his name Abdul, by chance? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 21 Apr 04 - 12:28 AM No, Martin. His name is not Abdul. And I'm fairly confident that he will not win. Here are some more newspaper quotes about the 1967 war: Le Monde, June 3, 1972... "All those stories about the huge danger we were facing because of our small territorial size, an argument expounded once the war was over, had never been considered in our calculations prior to the unleashing of hostilities. While we proceeded towards the full mobilisation of our forces, no person in his right mind could believe that all this force was necessary to our defence against the Egyptian threat. To pretend that the Egyptian forces concentrated on our borders were capable of threatening Israel's existence does not only insult the intelligence of any person capable of analysing this kind of situation, but is primarily an insult to the Israeli army." --General Mattitiahu Peled, Chief Quartermaster-General's Branch, Israeli Defence Forces, General Staff Ma' ariv, April 4, 1972... "There was no danger of annihilation. Israeli headquarters never believed in this danger." --General Chaim Herzog, Commanding General and first Military Govemor, Israeli Occupied West Bank New York Times, August 21, 1982... "In June l967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." --Menachem Begin And this from Holocaust survivor and Israeli Jew, Israel Shahak: I myself well remember how (before I was "in opposition") the necessity of war with was explained to me and others a year before the 1956 war, and the necessity of conquering "the rest of Western Palestine when we will have the opportunity" was explained in the years 1965-67. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Teribus Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:04 AM No opinion on the Hamas Covenant then Carol? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ellenpoly Date: 21 Apr 04 - 05:12 AM Real anger runs deep on this thread. If those of us who do not live in the Middle East can be in such virulant disagreement over the rights and wrongs of the issue, what chance do those at the centre of the storm have? A few observations: I lived in Israel on and off during the 70s, and in that time what struck me over and over again were the borders that they were defending. They made a lot of sense to me, in that they were either water, mountains, or desert. Most Israelis were living in a constant state of paranoia ever since the inception of that country. Children helped to guard kibbutzim with M15s strapped around their shoulders. I was also on the spot when most of the Sinai was given back to Egypt, and the growing anger, but final grudging acceptance that this was an important step towards peace, at least on one border. What was also palpable was the feeling that this was an island surrounded by Arab countries who had combined their efforts in the past towards one end- in manipulating the Palestinian refugees who were never allowed to be assimilated into any of their societies, but rather kept as pawns in the most horrific refugee camps to be encouraged to live in a state of fury and desperation about their future. They raised their children in an atmosphere of no hope, or the only hope being the total annihilation of Israel. Both sides are being manipulated now. The hatred has grown a hundred-fold and is still being fanned by outside powers with their own agendas. I do not see a way out of this. I wish I did, for both peoples are suffering and the world is caught in this extended grip of madness. ...e |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:04 PM I'm against the activities and agenda of Hamas, Teribus. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 21 Apr 04 - 05:39 PM Ellen... The hatred you speak of ,has its roots in the inception of the State of Israel itself. Recently,I have spoken at length with a British Army major, who was involved in the allocation of Arab land to the jews just after WW2. He told me the allocation was a sham,as the jews stole many times the amount of land that they had been allocated,and taking the best land available. No one in the British command had the will or the means to stop this theft,and the French consul ,who tried to "blow the whistle", was murdered by the Israeli Secret service....Nothing changes.. Martin Gibson and his ilk are ignorant fools if they think Islamic Fundamentalism can be "stopped" by force. If we are lucky the change will come from inside Islam,but I fear these fanatics are much too strong in will for our self indulgent societies to deal with. Maybe its all for the best,as you stated earlier humanity gets what it deserves....Ake |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 21 Apr 04 - 09:45 PM No akenaton, you are the ignorant fool who believes we have to be "lucky" to stop those who can't be reasoned with. I wouldn't try your "luck" in Las Vegas. Yes, the Islamic fundamentalists are strong in will, but short on reasoning. When you can't reason with them, they are going to have to be shown what the alternative is. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 22 Apr 04 - 02:28 AM Martin... It is your argument which is short on reason. Surely you realise that the Western Democracies,which have nothing but the profit motive as a driving force,simply dont have the will to stand against anything that becomes politically inconvieniant. Our social and economic systems are a house of cards,which will get progressivly "wobbly",as this "war on terror" continues. The madmen of Islam on the other hand,know they are going to be victorious,and cant wait to see Allah. The problem is that here are millions of peace loving Moslems ,who are daily being driven into the arms of Osama by our "phony war" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 22 Apr 04 - 10:22 AM Ake, "The madmen of Islam . . . can't wait to see Allah." That's true. So why do so many people get pissed off at me when I suggest we help them do just that? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: el ted Date: 22 Apr 04 - 10:26 AM Boring. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Risky Business Date: 22 Apr 04 - 11:00 AM On the subject of extremist beliefs: Does anyone know where the promise of posthumous virgins comes from? it's not in the Koran but maybe it's part of the hadith. There should be some way to let the terrorists know that due to the extended Yankee air cover many flights have gone through virgin territory. It would be a shame if those ethereal ladies now have some experience and have real men to compare the terrorists with. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Metchosin Date: 22 Apr 04 - 11:33 AM Well I always figured that most wars are some sort of pecker contest.....I rest my case. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 04 - 02:01 PM So why do so many people get pissed off at me when I suggest we help them do just that? I guess, unless you just enjoy the idea of killing people, it doesn't make any sense. At least not in any way that would help solve the problem and not make it worse. The killing of Muslims, even extremists, by Western governments, only radicalizes more and more formerly moderate Muslims, who then become extremists. We're seeing this happen in Iraq right now. As I said earlier in this thread, you can't solve the problem by trying to kill it (wipe it out). You have to correct the underlying problems that are creating the symptom. The other problem with saying that is if you and others aren't careful to specify that you don't consider all Muslims extremists, which is an assumption that many people do make about Muslims. Risky Business, you don't really think of women as people, do you? (Just a port in the storm, right?) |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 22 Apr 04 - 03:28 PM CarolC: Take you head out of there. Of course I think of women as people. Women terrorists should also get what they deserve. You can take your remark to me, and the presumption that goes with it, and put it somewhere. Please don't ever address me again. Period. You have just become someone whom I no longer know. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 22 Apr 04 - 03:49 PM Carol C., when those big moskeeters started biting' at you through the broken screens of that trailer of yours in swampy rural Alabamy, don't bother to kill them. Just think of what is the underlying problem that creates the symptom. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Metchosin Date: 22 Apr 04 - 03:54 PM huh? so you are posting under the handle Risky Business too brucie? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:01 PM Brucie, is your name "Risky Business"? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:04 PM ...talk about presumptions. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:24 PM Sorry. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:50 PM right |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 22 Apr 04 - 05:58 PM indifferent |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 22 Apr 04 - 06:22 PM Wish you kids would behave yourselves.....Your a real bad example to the guests. Brucie wheres that famous S O H??? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Risky Business Date: 22 Apr 04 - 06:44 PM Woe kids, align yerselves back in the startin' gate. I am my ownself and ain't no others. The subject had veered into the minds of terrorists and I was interested in the supposed reward of perennial virgins to the martyr for the faith. A hadith as I understand it is a saying attributed to the prophet (poobah) as opposed to words of the Koran itself. There have been a very few female 'martyrs' and I can only assume that they were driven by a sense of pure vengeance or possibly a feminist interpretation of perfect gigolos in space. What's good for the gander being good for the goose, although I'm not sure if Islamic culture has proceeded that far as yet. Okay kids, back in the water! I can't be in here every f'teen minutes gettin' you to mind your ownselves. Happy Earth Day! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 22 Apr 04 - 07:53 PM S O H? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 04 - 08:33 PM Not being a woman yourself, Risky Business, perhaps you wouldn't understand why women might find this statement by you offensive: It would be a shame if those ethereal ladies now have some experience and have real men to compare the terrorists with. But it comes across to me as though you have a pretty low opinion of women in general, or at the very least as though you don't really see us as people. You would probably get a better reaction from us if you didn't use us as sexual props in your fantasies vis-a-vis how you feel you measure up against the terrorists. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 22 Apr 04 - 11:30 PM Maybe he doesn't want to use men as sexual props. I salute him for that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Jim McCallan Date: 23 Apr 04 - 02:35 AM "Shoot The Women First" Always considered a more lethal opponent when cornered, and in posession of a fire-arm. I think however, we will see more women suicide bombers, unfortunately, if the present situation continues the way it is. And as a dedicated guerilla fighter, the female of the spieces have continually exhibited a more extreme exterior coldness; a much more cruel nature in the execution of whatever it is she is doing, than her average male counterpart. That is certainly not meant to be a sexist remark of any kind, incidentally. It is merely a profile, and as such, something one keeps in mind, when in such a situation. Jim |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Teribus Date: 23 Apr 04 - 03:30 AM Talking of being - "short on reason": "....you realise that the Western Democracies,which have nothing but the profit motive as a driving force,simply dont have the will to stand against anything that becomes politically inconvieniant." A ridiculous contention from two points: - The author mistakes "capitalism" as being a political ideology - It isn't. - Looking back through the development of "western democracy" over the past three hundred years, they have coped rather well with a great multitude of things that in their time became "politically inconvenient". Equally ridiculous is the contention that: "Our social and economic systems are a house of cards,which will get progressivly "wobbly",as this "war on terror" continues." I have seen no evidence whatsoever that would support such a statement, perhaps akenaton could supply some indication as to what leads him to believe this "deterioration" and what connection is there between "our social and economic systems" and the "war on terror". |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 23 Apr 04 - 04:03 AM Teribus ...The Americans are already desperate to get out of Iraq,as its all going horribly wrong.They are keen to shove responsibility on to the UN and any one else who can be coerced. This change of heart is for domestic political consumption. The problem with Western society is that there is no underlying ideology there,just a reliance on human greed to keep the system alive. So you are quite correct in what you say, the capitalists think they have an ideology ,but are in fact mistaking greed and selfishness for spirituality. Northern Ireland was another example of a government who did not have the will to carry out its promises to the bombed and maimed families who wanted to be British. There are many more which you know better than I. Im fed up repeating myself on my ideas about how terrorism will finally defeat the West,and Im sure Mudcats are fed up reading them |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 23 Apr 04 - 04:07 AM Sorry Brucie....I meant your famous sense of humour. Ill Pm you shortly,been minus computer fo a couple of weeks Take care and "hang loose" Ake |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Teribus Date: 23 Apr 04 - 05:18 AM akenaton - 23 Apr 04 - 04:03 AM Thanks for the laugh. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Risky Business Date: 23 Apr 04 - 09:09 AM Terrorism can win locally and for a limited amount of time, but over time terrorism always loses. Suicide attacks same thing. And capitalism while it has its faults, ain't it amazin' what people will do for money (even terrorists)? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 23 Apr 04 - 12:39 PM Risky ...How you going to spend your dollars when your hands and brain are one hundred metres apart?? No, Islamic terrorists dont care about money,or their own lives or anyone elses life,thats what makes them so dangerous. My friend Teribus thinks Im a "Doom and gloom" merchant with my head up my rectum, but I still think hes wrong and Islamic terrorism will see us off. The people who pull the strings know that Islam and Western capitalism cant co-exist,so this is "endgame". It may take a few years, but their people have been taught to die for their God ,and they do so happily. When we see the flag draped coffins rolling in ,we just think of another poor soul "conned by the politicians." Thats the difference.....Still smiling T??? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 23 Apr 04 - 12:54 PM And as a dedicated guerilla fighter, the female of the spieces have continually exhibited a more extreme exterior coldness; a much more cruel nature in the execution of whatever it is she is doing, than her average male counterpart. Maybe that's because they're doing it to protect their children, while as we've seen from Risky Business' Apr 04 - 11:00 AM post, many men are more concerned about having a lethal "pecker contest" (to quote Metchosin's 22 Apr 04 - 11:33 AM post). The people who pull the strings know that Islam and Western capitalism cant co-exist Akenaton, I still think you're wrong about this. Unless when you say "western capitalism", you're really talking about "western imperialism". There really is a big difference, and the people in the Islamic countries that are effected by western imperialism know what that difference is. If the western governments would leave the people in the Islamic countries alone and stop royally fucking them over in order to steal all of the resources in the region, Islamic fundamentalism, and Islamic terrorism, would not be an issue. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 23 Apr 04 - 01:28 PM Carol ...I dont see the difference. Western Capitalism,as practised in UK and USA,has developed around it a sort of worthless, throwaway, coundn't care less culture,and the export of this "culture" is a sort of imperialism. This "culture" appeals to the young people, who never see or think about the down side of capitalism,which we know only too well. Islamic clerics quite rightly see this "culture" as a huge threat to their power and to an ancient religion,and that is why I feel this will be a battle to the death. I dont suppose there will be any winners in the long run, but im sure the world will look very different after the smoke clears,and maybe if "civilisation" does crumble,humans will get the chance to do it right second time around...Ake |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 23 Apr 04 - 02:18 PM Where we seem to see things differently, Akenaton, is that you seem to think it's just the "values" associated with "western capitalism" that the people in Islamic countries are having a problem with. What I see is my government, along with the governments of some other Western countries, meddling in the governmental affairs of the Islamic countries. The US is responsible for causing a lot of pain and suffering with our practice of undermining democratic governments and propping up dictators who are willing to do our bidding. If we didn't do these kinds of things, creating a lot of pain, misery, and chaos in the process, the idea of Islamic fanaticism would not have much soil in which to take root in the countries of the Islamic world. Islam in its more moderate form would predominate if we didn't make life so bloody miserable for the people in those countries. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 23 Apr 04 - 02:46 PM Its all about power Carol....I dont think the people in Islamic countries have a problem with Western values. They dont even understand Western values. Its the clerics who have the problem. They have enormous power and can see that power being slowly eroded in the future,in much the same way as the power of the Catholic Church has been eroded by different values. Because of our disgust for our leaders and social /economic system, we should not allow ourselves to be blinded to the evils practiced by the power hungry leaders of Islam. Organisation, be it religious ,economic ,or political is always counter to peoples true happiness, any way thats what I think.... But Iv got my head up my rectum....Ake |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Risky Business Date: 23 Apr 04 - 02:47 PM Gee, I really appreciate being held up as a paragon of male-female equality. Carol, I prefer to speak for myself and not be misinterpreted. If you are not up on Terrorist Beliefs and Islamic hadiths then you don't have anything relevant to say re my post which so pushed your button. akenaton you have two positions, with which, if i understand them right, (I am as subject to Carol's ability to misapprehend as s/he is) I disagree: 1) The likelihood that Islamic world has a big edge over the west because of their ability to send suicide squads wheresoever they will. - As I mentioned above, historically these cults of doom do not succeed over the long term. They are not the first to try to influence events this way, and even the Japanese didn't come close to turning the tide of war with Kamikaze attacks, they simply made the cost of victory that much higher for the Allies and themselves. 2) The vapidity of modern western capitalism. - I suggest that if one does nothing but watch cable television channels such as MTV and Home Sales network, you could have feelings along those lines, but there is an extremely broad front to western life of which this is by no means the whole. If you compare this with those wretched little schools in Pakistan and Afghanistan wherein little kids are set to memorizing the Koran (sometimes without understanding the language they are memorizing), doesn't this even make a Nike commercial look intellectual? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 23 Apr 04 - 03:07 PM Risky....You are quite close to my position ...both of them. But,regarding terrorism,why should the Islamic terrorists stop at suicide bombing. On other threads Iv discussed the effect on our economies, of biological attacks. For people with no regard to life the spreading of some virulent disease in the Western cities would seem to be the ideal way to ensure the destruction of The Western economic system,and it could easily be accomplished given the large Moslem populations in most cities. I think the reason that this has not been tried so far ,must be that the Fundamentalists are using our financial institutions to fund their side of the "war". Im old enough now not to fear death, but it will be "interesting" to see how things work out.....Ake |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 23 Apr 04 - 03:35 PM No, Risky Business, it's not me who has misaprehended. And I'm not the only woman on this thread who saw your post as offensive. My point has nothing to do with Islamic hadiths, and everything to do with your line about whom the "virgins" would find to be "real men". Real men don't talk about women that way. Akenaton, I think we can look at Iran as a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Iran had a fledgeling democracy. The US crushed it and installed a ruthless dictator, the Shah, in its place. The Shah made the Iranians lives miserable, and killed many people in the process. That's what drove the ordinary people to flock to the Ayatollahs, and backed their takover of the government. Had the US left Iran alone, and allowed its democracy to develop on its own, the Islamic revolution in Iran would probably never have taken place. It's only about power for those at the top. The majority of people just want to live their lives in peace. When that is denied them, they will often become radicalized and give their support to extremists. If ordinary people didn't give their support to extremists, the extremists would not get very far with their agendas. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 23 Apr 04 - 03:45 PM Well, Carol C. I'm not the only Jew on this forum who is offended by you and your constant stance against Israel. Nor am I the only American who is offended by you and your constant ridicule of American foreign policy. |
|
Subject: recent posts to this thread From: Risky Business Date: 23 Apr 04 - 04:21 PM Ake, if I may so address you: If you're argument is that the other side feels they are so close to God that they can pretty much do anything to the West, in the manner of the crude joke: "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out", I'm not there yet. I think most people no matter what their background, are as Carol says, "The majority of people just want to live their lives in peace. " I don't totally agree with that as we know that in times past, people such as the Vikings found that it was easy, fun, and cost-effective to regularly invade their neighbors for slaves and property. The Huns, Goths, Franks, Sioux, Hebrews, Turks, Moors, Slavs, Zulu, Afrikaners, Celts, Aryans, Arabs, etc. etc. have all in their turns behaved as in the Monty Python skit: "People were in and out of 'ouses w' each others' property all the time!" I hold to the tried and true test of humanity that people will live in peace after trying everything else. On the other hand, I don't think it will come to apocalypse. I think there will be a morning after. And now that I've drowned my opinions in pop bathos, I'm gonna suggest that someone find a way to correct the speling in the thread title and wish y'all a happy post Earth Day and may we really be saving some wetlands as the Pres promised. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: dianavan Date: 23 Apr 04 - 04:46 PM Risky Business - It was a so-called Christian who said, "Kill them all. God will know his own," before committing genocide. Terrorism is borne of desperation and an absolute sense of having no other way to fight the aggression that is making life miserable for you and your family. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 23 Apr 04 - 04:46 PM Martin, my comments that you find offensive are based on my political and concientious beliefs. You may not agree with them, but that doesn't make them inherently offensive in and of themselves. If I were to say something that disparaged Jews as people, that would be inherently offensive. Conversely, I find many of your comments that disparage Arabs and Muslims as people to be inherently offensive, in the same way that I would find a comments that disparaged Jews as people inherently offensive. Mr. Business' post was inherently offensive because it fails to treat women as human beings. But I don't expect either you or Mr. Business to understand why. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 23 Apr 04 - 04:55 PM I regret that we cross posted, Risky Business, because it looks to me like you are taking my 23 Apr 04 - 03:35 PM post gracefully, and the last line of my 23 Apr 04 - 04:46 PM post looks like a snipe at your after you've responded gracefully. My apologies. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Risky Business Date: 24 Apr 04 - 11:50 AM Carol: No problem. My experience is one can't claim to be unprejudiced, the insulted know when they've been insulted, and what is humorous to me might well be offensive to someone in a way I never intended. I just keep on goin' and trust that all will settle out in the great upload to come. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:47 PM Carol C. You make up your own rules as you go along as usual. Nice tap dance. Do you want a top hat and cane? Just the fact that you defend people who are terrorists and attempt to speak on their behalf to me is as horrifyingly offensive to me as if you were to call me a kike. Even more so. You have no fucking right to tell me or anyone else what I should be offended at. Your respect for this country or lack of it easily offends plenty. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:53 PM Martin, I think it's you who makes up the rules as you go along. You say whatever you want about whomever you want and get outraged when others do the same. I have every right to express my opinions about the behavior of governments. So do you. Where things get murky is when people start dipping into the realm of spreading hate against religious, ethnic, and/or racial groups, which you do with great regularity. The fact is, I have exactly the same rights as you do. No more, no less. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:59 PM By the way, Martin, I'd be willing to bet money that there are plenty of Jews who find your behavior offensive as well. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 24 Apr 04 - 06:56 PM One last point. You're wrong when you say I defend terrorists. I don't defend them, or their practices. I would like to see an international court to address the problem of terrorism. But I want everybody to be held to the same standards. That means that all states that sponsor terrorism, including the US and Israel, should all be held responsible for their actions. If you see that as being the equivalent of calling you a Kike (or worse), then you've got some serious problems. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:09 AM Carol C. You are obviously the one all hopped up. It took you 2 hours+ to get it all off of your poor excuse for a chest in three separate posts. Did you think about anything but me during those 2 hours just dreaming up a reply that was nothing more than a pathetic attack back at me? You really need a life. And who do you think you are that everyone needs to be held to your standards? No one is saying that you do not have the right to express your opinions. But you do not have the right to speak for my people. And you don't have any money to bet, much less a pot to piss in. I am far from outraged. I am very entertained, though. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: dianavan Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:31 AM Go eat a cookie. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:43 AM Bake me some, woman. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:56 AM Bake me a goat while you're at it, SVP. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 04 - 02:24 AM Nobody speaks for all of your people, Martin. Not even you. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ellenpoly Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:33 AM I keep visualizing putting the two of you in a room together and letting you duke it out..(I'll bring the cookies)..xx..e |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 11:58 AM No, I don't speak for ALL my people. But they are MY people, not yours. Remeber that. You are not anywhere as close to the situation and the feelings and discussions of those people as I am. You hear no real voices. You do not get the congrgational discussions. You do not hear from Jewish leaders in person. You do not get the publications mailed to your house. You find things on the Internet and call everything you find reality. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:04 PM Martin, Carol does not have a "poor excuse for a chest". I just thought you should know... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:10 PM Thanks, Little Hawk. But I wouldn't care if she filled out a 40D. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:30 PM Heh! Well, she's a very nice person, even if you two can't agree about politics. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:31 PM LOL, LH. Martin, we're both human beings. That's one thing I do know. Jews are not really any different than the rest of humanity. On the subject of the culture and religion of Ashkenazi Jews in the US, you certainly have a vastly greater knowlege than me. As for what I do or do not have access to, you can only guess, and your little slice of American Reform Jewishness is only a small piece of the total picture. Have a cookie. Ellenpoly made them. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:39 PM I figure Martin just doesn't know what he's missing... Tribalism is a big problem in this World. If people can't see outside the borders of their own tribal identity (Jewish, Native American, Republican, Democrat, American, Canadian, Argentinian, Libertarian, Black, White, Catholic, Shiite, Sunni, etc..ad infinitum) then their opinions will necessarily be inflexible, defensive and reactive, and they will instinctively hate and fear many of those outside "the tribe". We won't have a united and peaceful World until people think of themselves first and primarily as "human" and place a whole lot less emphasis on the differences than on the similarities between them and other people. Anyone can speak for the human race. If so, they can also speak on behalf of the various splintered tribes within it, whether or not they are a member...but NOT if they are hobbled and defined primarily BY their own tribal identity. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:42 PM Nicely said, LH. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:10 PM Carol C. American Reformed Judiasm is by far the largest group of in this country. It encompasses as much as 65-70% of the nations Jews. It is not fragmented in the slightest. Virtually all Reformed Jewish Congregations belong to the Union for Reformed Judiasm. For you and everyone else, here is the URJ's description: Throughout history, Jews have remained firmly rooted in Jewish tradition, even as we learned much from our encounters with other cultures. Nevertheless, since its earliest days, Reform Judaism has asserted that a Judaism frozen in time is an heirloom, not a living fountain. The great contribution of Reform Judaism is that it has enabled the Jewish people to introduce innovation while preserving tradition, to embrace diversity while asserting commonality, to affirm beliefs without rejecting those who doubt, and to bring faith to sacred texts without sacrificing critical scholarship. Reform Judaism affirms the central tenets of Judaism - God, Torah and Israel - even as it acknowledges the diversity of Reform Jewish beliefs and practices. We believe that all human beings are created in the image of God, and that we are God's partners in improving the world. Tikkun olam — repairing the world — is a hallmark of Reform Judaism as we strive to bring peace, freedom, and justice to all people. Reform Jews accept the Torah as the foundation of Jewish life containing God's ongoing revelation to our people and the record of our people's ongoing relationship with God. We see the Torah as God inspired, a living document that enables us to confront the timeless and timely challenges of our everyday lives. In addition to our belief that Judaism must change and adapt to the needs of the day to survive and our firm commitment to Tikkun Olam, the following principles distinguish Reform Jews from other streams of Judaism in North America. Reform Jews are committed to the principle of inclusion, not exclusion. Since 1978 the Reform Movement has been reaching out to Jews-by-choice and interfaith families, encouraging them to embrace Judaism. Reform Jews consider children to be Jewish if they are the child of a Jewish father or mother, so long as the child is raised as a Jew. Reform Jews are committed to the absolute equality of women in all areas of Jewish life. We were the first movement to ordain women rabbis, invest women cantors, and elect women presidents of our synagogues. Reform Jews are also committed to the full participation of gays and lesbians in synagogue life as well as society at large. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:14 PM That looks like a very good religion, Martin. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: dianavan Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:00 PM We believe that all human beings are created in the image of God, and that we are God's partners in improving the world. Tikkun olam — repairing the world — is a hallmark of Reform Judaism as we strive to bring peace, freedom, and justice to all people. Very nice words. Too bad that you don't seem to be practicing, Martin. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:06 PM I think it's very obvious he is. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Mark Cohen Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:11 PM Martin, I've tried to stay out of this, but I think some things need to be said. Please compare these two statements: "We are committed to a vision of the State of Israel that promotes full civil, human and religious rights for all its inhabitants and that strives for a lasting peace between Israel and its neighbors." --Statement of Principles for Reform Judaism, Central Conference of American Rabbis (now the Union for Reform Judaism), 1999 "Actualy, hair breath Guest, I really do not support Bush for everything as you so stupidly claim. You obviously are making futile stabs at knowing me, which you, ahem, fucking don't. But I do support his backing of Israel, you fuck faced coward with no name, and I do hope he gives them enough money to completely destroy Hamas. What do you think, everything the UN has done is wrong? You have shit for brains, oh cowardly Guest. Long live Israel. Death to Hamas. Whatever it takes to rid the middle east of terrorists." --Martin Gibson, 2004 I am a Jew, Conservative by upbringing and practice, Progressive by inclination and philosophy. I support the State of Israel and its right to exist. However, I think that many of the Israeli government's policies are and were wrong, just as I think many of the US government's policies are and were wrong. I am anti-Sharon, but that does not make me anti-Israel, just as being anti-Bush does not make me anti-American, no matter what Rush Limbaugh says. Martin, I appreciate your posting the URJ principles, but you do not speak for all Jews, let alone all American Jews, or even all Reform Jews (of which I am not one). I'm sure you can be a pleasant person, and are probably a better guitarist than I am. You and I may even agree on some political or religious points. But your style is offensive, and I wish you would calm down and stop acting like you are the only one who knows anything and anybody who disagrees with you is a moron. It's almost enough to make me into an anti-semite. (And if you take this as a "Jewish anti-semitic remark", then you're not as smart as I thought you were.) Shalom, Mark |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Israel Wastes no Time.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:20 PM It took you 2 hours+ to get it all off of your poor excuse for a chest in three separate posts (Martin Gibson) For anyone reading a post that particularly annoys them, it is a very very good idea to resist the temptation to dash off a response in the heat of the moment, and that should never be seen as something to sneer at or criticise. It would be a lot better if some of the other people posting in this thread (for example) followed this rule, instead of wading in with tongue flying, spewing out insults calculated to inflame things generally, and ro undermine discussion. Except I don't think calculation actually enters into that kind of post writing. A good rule is, the more angry we feel, the more controlled our response needs to be. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:24 PM I think we're all made in the image of God too, but I don't take that to mean that our physical appearance resembles that of the Creator (given that the Creator is not a limited something that HAS a physical appearance). I believe it's a metaphorical statement, and refers to something spiritual, not the physical body. I think it refers to our abilities of thought, consciousness, awareness, decision-making, freedom of will, imagination, and creativity. We are ourselves creators. We are godlike, albeit on a smaller scale. In those respects we are indeed cast in God's image. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: dianavan Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:37 PM I'm surprised at you, brucie. Why do you think name-calling and using derogatory language is a means to a peace and justice? Thank-you Mark Cohen for telling Martin to "cool it". He has insulted more than one person on this forum. Somebody should tell him that he is a poor example. If I were Jewish, I certainly wouldn't want him speaking for me. Its far easier to learn from a rational and logical discussion. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:53 PM No Mark Cohen, I do not speak for all Jews and neither do you. But as someone who was also raised as a convervative Jew, I know where you are coming from in addressing reformed Jews. The fact is, I believe that many conservative Jews are so on the fence and waffle about way too much. I remember the conservative movement being quite narrow minded when it came to the reformed movement even to the point of ridicule. You are not being anti-semitic, only anti reformed. Do you really appreciate what I posted about the URJ? Do you really agree with their philosophy about who is Jewish or not? Do you really appreciate that gay marriage is recognized? Would your rabbi marry one? Over all, conservative Judiasm has lost the most followers in it's membership over the last 20-25 years. Well, I have the right to not agree with everything, also. If you don't believe that Hamas at this point has to be dealt with the way it is being dealt with you are just inviting more terrorism. You can't really believe in Israel's right to exist if at this point, you do not fight for it. If I am not mistaken that was the point that I made. I will continue to make it. And dianavan, you really don't know squat, except how to. You have no idea if I give half of my time and money to charity or not. You only see me on this forum, and to me, the Internet is just not that real. And Mcgrath, since anger is an honest emotion, what's wrong with expressing it when you feel someone is full of crap. I get it all of the time hurled at me. If you are going to dish it out, you are going to have to take it, also. I have no problem with that. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 06:55 PM dianavan, this silly forum is hardly a means to peace and justice. For some, like me, it's just pure entertainment. This forum has, I am sure, zero impact on politics and world situations. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 07:52 PM Oh yeahm one more thing Mark Cohen. That quote you used of mine to the hair breath Guest. Why should you care how or what I said to this poor excuse of a poster? That Guest wasn't you, was it? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:00 PM It's just a question of different sensibilities. It's an argument about manners. Some people don't like yours, Martin, but you naturally feel fine about the way you express yourself. I'm curious...what do you think about Howard Stern? He offends a lot of people, cos his manners are so...unrestrained. :-) Still, he's a mighty sharp cookie, I think. He's also got some serious emotional problems, but, hell, he knows that. He makes no bones about it. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Israel Wastes no Time.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:05 PM I think, Martin, you just demonstrated why it's sometimes a better idea to sit on a response for a bit. Just because an emotion is "honest" doesn't give it any value in itself. (There are people who are quite honestly racist, for example.) Anger under certain circumstances is an appropriate emotion, and honesty about these things means that we should not camouflage it. But that's a very different from just "throwing crap around", which is not a way of conducting a useful discussion, but merely a way of trying to disrupt it. What makes a discussion useful, it seems to me, is when those taking part end up with a better understanding of the position held by other people; and also where, perhaps, in the light of this better understanding, some people may have modified their own position. It isn't about changing politics and world situations. But it isn't about "pure entertainment" either. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:07 PM It's about self-expression. A worthy pursuit. It's also about communication, self-knowledge, having fun, and learning not to let your buttons be pushed so easily by other people. At least that's what it's about for me. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:23 PM McGrath, I assure you for me, it's pure entertainment. If you want to deep think everything here, that's OK with me. If you want useful discussions, look for it. But you just might have to dodge some of the crap that I and others just might throw around. I reserve the right to be and not be serious about anything and nothing. Little Hawk, you are so right on! Way too many people want and need this place to be the most stimulating thing in their lives. As for Howard Stern, I used to listen to him, but don't that often any more. He is not a hero of mine, but I do have some admiration for him. He is very sharp and I love his political incorrectness. I read his book and thought it was hilarious. I do like that he isn't afraid to offend if he believes what he thinks. I don't know about his emotional probelems, I've never talked to his therapist. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:25 PM There goes the neighborhood |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:30 PM That's right Guest. Need a moving truck? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Little Hawk Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:34 PM Yeah, Martin. Christ, if this forum was the most stimulating thing in my life I'd end it all NOW. :-) It's definitely fun, though, and I have met some great people through it (both in the flesh and not). It's good for a deep discussion now and then too. I've never listened to Howard Stern on the radio at all, only read his book "Miss America" at this point. It's hilarious in places. (I have to say that Howard's got pretty good looking legs for a man...when he wears stockings, I mean.) His hijacking of the Libertarian Party in New York was an extraordinary satirical stunt. I wish he could hijack the Democrats or Republicans at the national level and run for president, cos it would make for a very entertaining election, but they'd probably get someone to assassinate him first. - LH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:39 PM I didn't read Miss America. I read Private Parts, which was an autobiography. An interesting story that shows how he became what he is. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 25 Apr 04 - 09:10 PM dianavan: I have no control over how shocked you are. What I was referring to was the nice, peaceful exchange that had just taken place between tow people who seemed like enemies a month ago, and have found some middle ground. I happen to like Martin. I don't care who knows that. If you think being Jewish means you always have to say things nicely, I am surprised at you. I do not know the life my friend had, nor do I know the things he has gone through. I am not about to judge him in that manner. He has always been polite to me. So, don't be shocked. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: dianavan Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:34 AM Hey, anger is a real emotion. Nothing wrong with feeling angry. Its just the way you express it, Martin. Just because you're angry, doesn't give you the right to verbally abuse others. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ellenpoly Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:46 AM Ok, folks, would everyone calm down and HAVE A COOKIE? I was born into a reformed Jewish household, and I can never remember while growing up, hearing anyone speak the way Martin Gibson does, in or out of my home, and believe me, my family dinners were full of debates on politics. I'm sorry, but I cringe when I read the way you choose to express both your emotions and your ideas, Martin, because I think you defeat your own purpose in the way you state your case. If this is a place of debate, then let it remain so. The fact that it seems to dwindle into a shouting match where offensive statements are being thrown as verbal weapons only to hurt, not to enlighten, doesn't get us any further in this discussion. Again I point out that if even here, in this the mildest of forums, we can not stop outselves from using the most offensive kind of epitaphs in place of thoughtful and reasoned remarks, god help the Middle East, much less the rest of the world. Come on folks, have a cookie and proceed more calmly. Lots worth discussing here...xx..e |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Israel Wastes no Time.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Apr 04 - 05:29 AM As Rabbi Blue always says, "Don't take it so heavy." "Pure entertainment" doesn't involve losing your rag all the time. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: freda underhill Date: 26 Apr 04 - 05:38 AM Anger and argument.. Are you a victim, a rescuer or a persecutor? These are three dysfunctional methods for gaining control. In the drama of the roles of persecutor, rescuer and victim, the real issue at hand is power and control. Of the three roles, the victim is the most powerful. For the victim to react and get revenge, he will have to change roles, in this case, he will have to move into the persecutor role. To get his needs met, he will have to acquire a rescuer. If he were to become aware of someone else acting out the victim role, and he wants to "help him", he will have to go into the rescuer role. A victim acts as though he needs things done for him when he is perfectly capable of doing them himself. A victim never takes responsibility, every problem is someone else's fault. In acting like a victim, the victim avoids responsibility, guilt manipulates another person into doing the thing for them, achieves their goal through another person's nurturing/effort, and can move into persecutor (blaming the resuer) if they don't like the outcome. A rescuer continually does things for others while disregarding his or her own conscious needs. The rescuer may also be into controlling the victim, by "helping" them with their life, but is gaining a vicarious sense of power out of controlling the victim. They may develop a martyr complex, but will be very unwilling to give up their rescuer role because they're "just trying to help". A persecutor uses anger directly or indirectly to gain control. He may throw temper tantrums, be sarcastic, abusive, pout for days, or promise to do things and then not do them. The persecutor can be someone who was persecuted as a child, by an authoritarian or controlling parent, or who feels persecuted as a member of some social group. They feel justified in turning around and giving back to others what they feel has been dumped on them in the past. A persecutor never takes responsibility, every problem is someone else's fault. Being the persecutor also leads to becoming a victim. There is no revenge like the revenge of a victim who has become a persecutor. In his revenge, he wants his persecutor to "feel the pain." From this, he says he will get closure. His only closure will be "an eye for an eye." For the rest of his life, he will carry the burden of the pain of hurt and because he has not let go of the experience. If you persecute people with abusive comments, anger, name-calling or making sarcastic comments, eventually other people will not trust you and will leave you. Functional methods of gaining control include taking responsibility for your own life, giving people the respect to make their own decisions, only offering help or advice if its asked for, treating people with courtesy even if you strongly disagree with their views, arguing with ideas instead of personal attacks. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:50 AM 40 DD's AND ACCORDIANS,SIMPLY CANNOT CO-EXIST,IN MY OPINION. But L.H ....A new career beckons,......In Councilling...Ake. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:46 AM Do me a favor, Ellenpoly, if you don't like what I write or the way I write it, don't read it. Best rule for you. Maybe not for me. And your family dinners and debates were not over the Internet. This is neither my family nor is it dinnertime, here. There is a very strong misconception here that I am angry. I guess I need to shout this: I AM NOT ANGRY!! Plain and simple, there is a lot of bullshit here in the old BS section. I choose to read some of it and you can, also. McGrath, I never heard of Rabbi Blue. And I am not on the rag, though a few ladies here are flowing quite heavily. Basically, if you are uncomfortable with the way I express myself, that really is entirely your problem. Freda, from where did you get in degree in psychoanalysis? I am not at all a victim, a rescuer, or a prosecutor. What does this have to do with anything let alone this thread? That was some of the most self serving bullshit I have read here yet. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Little Hawk Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:27 AM If Spock were here he'd say, "Fascinating..." |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: freda underhill Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:31 AM if Freud were here he'd say..... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: freda underhill Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:39 AM ..what a lot of psychobabble, calm down and have a cup of tea! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Apr 04 - 09:52 AM Rabbi Blue - well worth getting to know. "Remember I am not angry" - so all the posts from Martin in various threads that might have been interpreted as high-octave rage and furious invective were just light-hearted banter. That's good - but I think you really had some people taken in there, Martin. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ellenpoly Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:01 PM And if my bubbie were here, she'd say...Shame on you! |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: pdq Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:40 PM ...to quote Ellenpoly: "we can not stop outselves from using the most offensive kind of epitaphs" |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ellenpoly Date: 26 Apr 04 - 12:50 PM yeah yeah...my spell check is on the fritz...but the thought is still clear to those who give a shrit..xx..e |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Don Firth Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:25 PM Marty, Marty, Marty. And on a couple of other threads you were doing so well! Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:17 PM Yeah, sorry Don. But 2 out 3 ain't real bad. Keep playing the percentages. ellenpoly, bubbies say "shame on you" for virtually everything. That's part of being a bubbie. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:27 PM Sounds like a good refrain line for a song. Something like, "Two outta three ain't real" or words to that effect. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ellenpoly Date: 27 Apr 04 - 03:42 AM But maybe if you listened more to your bubbie, Martin, you'd "play nice" on ALL the threads...another cookie?..xx..e |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Don Firth Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:19 PM Two out of HOW MANY!!????? Don Firth |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST,Martin Gibson Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:50 PM People who accuse others of not playing nice are usually behind the 8 ball. My bubbie was pretty tough. Ok, Don. 2 our FOUR. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ellenpoly Date: 27 Apr 04 - 12:56 PM She must have been, Martin. Mine was loving, forgiving, and most of all, respectful of other people's opinions..xx..e |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST Date: 27 Apr 04 - 01:35 PM Did she use her own name all the time. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: dianavan Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:43 PM Matin, now that we know your Bubbie shamed you and was tough on you; do you want to tell us about your mother? Maybe that would help us understand why you're such a misogynist. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: pdq Date: 27 Apr 04 - 09:50 PM ...now, now dianavan, you were just warned about hurling "epitaphs" at others... |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: dianavan Date: 15 May 04 - 10:54 PM Well, well, well... Have you heard the latest? Kerry thinks that Israel has the best methods of dealing with terrorists. This will make Martin happy. What a cutesy, little politician! I also hear he is considering a Republican, running mate. Hey Martin, who you gonna vote for? |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: S O P Date: 16 May 04 - 10:47 AM di-van: take a few deep breaths and get a grip... apparently not everyone running for president has gone to the trouble of getting your permission. You should contact the candidates directly. In the meantime, get a prescription for a mild calmative. Or try warm milk You could also spend some time reflecting on what resources YOU might devote to an enemy who could convince young men and women to strap explosives to themselves and in civilian clothing get on public buses full of civilians and blow them up causing as much distress as possible. Works for me. And makes Kerry a more viable candidate. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 16 May 04 - 10:52 AM You could also spend some time reflecting on what resources YOU might devote to an enemy who could convince young men and women to strap explosives to themselves and in civilian clothing get on public buses full of civilians and blow them up causing as much distress as possible. Ending the occupation would be an excellent start. Kerry could encourage this by not giving Israel any more money to help them oppress and terrorize the Palestinians. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 16 May 04 - 12:17 PM dianavan I am going to vote for whoever you don't vote for, wench. |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST,Katherine Harris Date: 16 May 04 - 12:25 PM Martin Gibson, Dianavan is from Canada. She has no vote in the American election. KH |
|
Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Metchosin Date: 16 May 04 - 01:18 PM Actually, she was born in the US and if she has maintained dual citizenship she can vote in US elections. Democrats Abroad |
