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Subject: Origins: Martin Said to his Man/Who's the Fool Now From: Joe Offer Date: 18 Mar 00 - 03:59 AM Traditional Ballad Index listing: Martin Said To His ManDESCRIPTION: The singer says s/he saw various animals performing various activities, some of which are impossible or unlikely (E.g. "Saw a crow flying low"; "Saw a mule teachin' school"). In some versions, the narrator(s) are drunk, competing to tell the tallest tale.AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1609 (Deuteromelia; registered as a ballad 1588) KEYWORDS: contest drink lullaby nonballad nonsense paradox talltale animal bug FOUND IN: US(Ap,MW,SE,So) Britain(England,Scotland(Aber)) REFERENCES (19 citations): Kinloch-TheBalladBook XIV, pp. 50-54, "The Man in the Moon" (1 text) Greig/Duncan8 1703, "I Saw a Sparrow" (1 text plus a single verse on p. 401, 1 tune) Porter/Gower-Jeannie-Robertson-EmergentSingerTransformativeVoice #10, pp. 125-126, "Soo Sewin' Silk" (1 text, 1 tune) Reeves/Sharp-TheIdiomOfThePeople 109, "Well Done Liar" (1 text) Randolph 445, "Johnny Fool" (2 texts) Brown/Belden/Hudson-FrankCBrownCollectionNCFolklore3 114, "Kitty Alone" (1 text) Brown/Schinhan-FrankCBrownCollectionNCFolklore5 114, "Kitty Alone" (1 tune plus a text excerpt) Hudson-FolksongsOfMississippi 128, p. 274, "Old, Blind, Drunk John" (1 text) Hudson-FolkTunesFromMississippi 41, "Old, Blind, Drunk John" (1 text, 1 tune) Wyman/Brockway-LonesomeSongs-KentuckyMountains-Vol1, p. 22, "The Bed-time Song" (1 text, 1 tune) Wolfe/Boswell-FolkSongsOfMiddleTennessee 78, pp. 126-128, "Johnny Fool" (1 text, 1 tune) Bush-FSofCentralWestVirginiaVol4, p. 27, "Blind Johnny Boo" (1 short text, 1 tune) Grimes-StoriesFromTheAnneGrimesCollection, p. 62, "The Liar's Song" (1 text, tune) Sulzer-TwentyFiveKentuckyFolkBallads, p. 22, "Nonsense Song No. 1" (1 short text, 1 tune, with a verse from this song although the rest might be anything) Richardson/Spaeth-AmericanMountainSongs, p. 97, "Hurrah, Lie" (1 text, 1 tune) Lomax-FolkSongsOfNorthAmerica 136, "Hurrah, Lie!" (1 text, 1 tune) Chappell-PopularMusicOfTheOldenTime, p. 76, "Who's the Fool Now" (1 text, 1 tune) Chappell/Wooldridge-OldEnglishPopularMusic I, p. 140, "Martin Said to His Man" (1 text, 1 tune) DT, HURRALIE* WHOSFOOL* Roud #473 RECORDINGS: Martha Hall, "Kitty Alone" (on MMOK, MMOKCD) Lizzie Higgins, "Soo Sewin' Silk" (on LHiggins01) CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "Gossip Joan (Neighbor Jones)" (theme) ALTERNATE TITLES: Old Blind Drunk John Fooba-Wooba John NOTES [616 words]: Referred to in Dryden's 1668 play "Sir Martin Mar-all, or the Feign'd Innocence" (act IV). It seems to have been very popular in the century prior to that. Hyder E. Rollins, An Analytical Index to the Ballad-Entries (1557-1709) In the Register of the Company of Stationers of London, 1924 (I use the 1967 Tradition Press reprint with a new Foreword by Leslie Shepard), p. 146, #1681, gives the Stationer's Register entry for this as "Martyn said to his man, who is the foole now," printed November 9, 1588 by Thomas Orwin. Rollins notes, in addition to Dryden's citation, that the title is used in Anthony Brewer's "Love-Sick King," Act III, and that someone named Collier in Notes & Queries, second series, XII, 143, connected this with someone by the name of Martin Skinck. The American versions can generally be told by their narrative pattern, "(I) saw a () (doing something)," e.g. "Saw a crow flying low," "Saw a mule teaching school," "Saw a louse chase a mouse," "Saw a flea wade the sea." The versions under the title "Kitty Alone" are sometimes a mix of this and "Frog Went A-Courting"; the first such text seems to have been in Gammer Gurton's Garland (1784), which has clearly a "Frog" plot but the form (and some of the exaggerations) of this piece. I'm sure there are some who have argued that the ancient English "Martin Said To His Man" is not the same as the modern American texts. But there is continuity of verses, believe it or not, and the theme never changes. And there is no way to draw a dividing line. There is a similar if not identical song that is even older than the "Martin" versions, which I was sorely tempted to lump with this. In the famous Richard Hill manuscript (Oxford, MS. Balliol College 354; see "MSRichardHill" in the Bibliography), folio 54 contains this lyric I sawe a stokfysshe drawynge a harow, and a-noder dryveng a barow, and a saltfysshe shoteyng an arow, I will have þe whetstone, and I may. It ends with this lyric: I sawe an ege etying a pye; Geve me drynke, my mowth ys drye; Yet ys not long syth I made a lye I will have þe whetstone, and I may. I.e. I saw an egg eating a [mag]pie. Give me drink, my mouth is dry, Yet [it] is not long since I made a lie, I will have the whetstone, and I may. References for this is song include: - Greene-TheEarlyEnglishCarols, #471, p. 317, "(I saw a doge sethyng sowse)" (1 text) - Roman Dyboski, Songs Carols, and Other Miscellaneous Poems from the Balliol Ms. 354, Richard Hill's Commonplace Book, 1908 (I use a [crummy] Forgotten Books print-on-demand copy made in 2016), #92, p. 110 - Brown/Robbins-IndexOfMiddleEnglishVerse, #1350 DigitalIndexOfMiddleEnglishVerse #256 There is a discussion in David R. Parker, The Commonplace Book in Tudor London: An Examination of BL MSS Egerton 1995, Harley 2252, Lansdowne 762, and Oxford Balliol College MS354, University Press of America, 1998, p. 82. Greene-TheEarlyEnglishCarols, p. 453, explains the chorus line about the whetstone by saying that it was the custom in the Middle Ages to tie a whetstone about the neck of a convicted liar when he was in pillory. Thus "I will have the whetstone, and I may" implies "I will earn the whetstone for telling the biggest lie." - RBW Reeves/Sharp-TheIdiomOfThePeople throws a bawdy light on some verses. For "I saw a wren kill a man" it cites Partridge's A Dictionary of Slang and Unconventional Slang to make "wren" "a harlot frequenting Curragh Camp, military 1869" [did the Women's Royal Naval Service -- Wrens -- of the World Wars escape this slang?]. For "I saw a maid milk a bull Every stroke a bucket full," "one of the meanings of 'milk' in the same source is 'cause sexual ejaculation'." - BS Last updated in version 6.2 File: WB022 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2023 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. WHO'S THE FOOL NOW or MARTIN SAID TO HIS MAN (DT Lyrics) Martin said to his man, fie, man, fie Martin said to his man, who's the fool, now Martin said to his man, Fill thou the cup and I the can Thou hast well drunken man, who's the fool now I saw the man in the moon, fie, man, fie I saw the man in the moon, who's the fool, now I saw the man in the moon, Clouting of St. Peter's shoon Thou hast well drunken, man, who's the fool, now I saw the goose ring the hog, fie, man, fie I saw the goose ring the hog, who's the fool, now I saw the goose ring the hog, saw the snail bite the dog Thou hast well drunken, man, who's the fool, now I saw the hare chase the hound, fie, man, fie I saw the hare chase the hound, who's the fool, now I saw the hare chase the hound, Twenty miles above the ground Thou hast well drunken, mn, who's the fool, now I saw the mouse chase the cat, fie, man, fie I saw the mouse chase the cat, who's the fool now I saw the mouse chase the cat, Saw the cheese eat the rat Thou hast well drunken, man, who's the fool now I saw a flea heave a tree, fie, man, fie I saw a flea heave a tree, who's the fool now I saw a flea heave a tree, twenty miles out to sea Thou hast well drunken, man, who's the fool now I saw a maid milk a bull, fie, man, fie I saw a maid milk a bull, who's the fool now I saw a maid milk a bull, at every pull a bucket full Thou hast well drunken, man, who's the fool now Martin said to his man, fie, man, fie Martin said to his man, who's the fool, now Martin said to his man, Fill thou the cup and I the can Thou hast well drunken man, who's the fool now Printed in Popular Music of the Olden Time, Chappelle Licensed in 1588 to Thomas Orwin. The Scots sing Wha's Fu' Noo; Seems like a reasonable predecessor, but reason leads folklorists aft agley. RG @drink @animal @plant @talltale filename[ WHOSFOOL TUNE FILE: WHOSFOOL CLICK TO PLAY sung by John and Tony on Spencer the Rover and by Hart and Prior on Old England SOF
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Subject: Martin said to his man From: Les in Chorlton Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:38 AM Fye, man fye Martin said to his man Who's the fool now? What's that all about then? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 24 Apr 04 - 04:42 AM Fill thou the cup and I the can Seems to be a blokish thing about who gets to drink the most. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Morticia Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:13 AM Kendall here. I believe it's a drunken lie contest among a group of soldiers. A sort of, "Can you top this" |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Les in Chorlton Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:17 AM All good stuff. Is it dead old and full of strange meaning: I saw thw man in the moon clouting off St Peter's shoon or is it just Victorian ramblings? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Kevin Sheils Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:37 AM I used to sing it years ago with Don Bonito. Didn't worry about deep significance, just treated it as a standard drinking chorus song that was handy to get the audience joining in. It's just a list of impossible things you might imagine you'd see when you've had a few. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:47 AM Ah yes. Must have been where I first heard it, upstairs in the Enterprise, Chalk Farm. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: GUEST,MCP Date: 24 Apr 04 - 05:48 AM See also Wha's Fu' in Digitrad, that (=who's had enough to drink) being a possible origin for who's the fool. Mick |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: GUEST,Charley Noble Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:39 AM And there are more revelations to come that we should endeavor to put into verse. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Lanfranc Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:42 AM I learned it originally from Martin Winsor and Redd Sullivan, but, coincidentally, I also used to sing it with Dom Bonito when we ran Saffron Walden FC together back in the 80s and early 90s. Haven't heard it sung for ages - perhaps I'll essay a revival! Never bothered to analyse it, just regarded it as a fun singalong. Alan |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 24 Apr 04 - 07:45 AM Where is Don Bonito? Is he still singing? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: alanabit Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:16 AM I recall Stillwood of Reading doing it unaccompanied in the seventies. I remember one of them said that Tim Hart and Maddy Prior used to sing it together. Who knows more? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Kevin Sheils Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:39 AM That was after Don & I sang together Lanfranc. Countess, I last saw Don about 4 (?) years back at the Cellar Upstairs 25th birthday party. Well it was 25 years since Sheila started running the club anyway. He and I sang together again then having been old Cellar residents as well as the Enterprise. Come to think of it, maybe it was the 30th birthday party. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Kevin Sheils Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:44 AM Just noticed that Lanfranc used Dom, whereas I used Don, for our old singing colleague. It's true that Dominic was his proper name but tended to call himself Don when I sang with him, maybe it sounded more "godfatherish" he being of Irish/Italian extraction :-). I guess he must have started using Dom later. He was still living in Saffron Walden recently. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:56 AM Wonder if he'll come down the M11 to Moreton Village Festival then? June 11 - 13, everybody! |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 24 Apr 04 - 09:59 AM It's allegedly an old Scottish song that the English stole, stuffed up the words, and now claim that it doesn't make any sense! The English thus claim that the song is about stupid fools. The alleged original had as a chorus "Who's fu' the noo?" - literally "Who's full now?" meaning "Who's drunk now?" The English botched it to "Who's the fool now?". When you look at this, the things traditionally sung as being seen are those a drunk traditionally sees, not a fool. Of course, a drunk may be a fool too, I suppose... Robin |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 24 Apr 04 - 11:53 AM It's quite old as these things go, and was licensed to the publisher Thomas Orwin in 1588, though no broadside copies survive. It appeared in Thomas Ravenscroft's Deuteromelia (1609): Freemens songs of 4 Voices. ...and in various publications during the 17th century. A different tune, with the "wha's fu' now" refrain, appeared in Henry Playford's Original Scotch Tunes (1701); this seems to be the earliest version we have from Scotland, where it also appears in a number of guises. Ann Gilchrist (Journal of the English Folk Dance and Song Society, IV (3) 1942, 118-121) quotes examples from England and Scotland, and remarks on "...a confusion between 'fool' and 'full' (fou'=drunk) on one side or other of the Border", but draws no conclusions as to any "national" origin for the song and its relatives, pointing instead to the occurrence of similar songs and themes throughout Britain and Ireland, in most of the languages spoken here. |
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Subject: RE: Tim Hart and Maddy Prior From: MickyMan Date: 24 Apr 04 - 12:02 PM Yes, Tim Hart and Maddy Prior definately used to sing it together on their immortal "Folk Songs Of Old England" recording (I think that was the name). This is an absolutely wonderful recording. Simply done with beautiful harmony singing. Before all of their rock influenced stuff. Is it available on CD? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Dave the Gnome Date: 24 Apr 04 - 12:35 PM I'm led to believe that Martin's 'man' is in fact his master. Martin being the servant and taking the piss once his man has had a few too many. Can't remember where I heard that though... I saw a maid milk a bull every stroke a bucket full... Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: yrlancslad Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:21 PM I've been singing it so long I can't remember where I got it from, maybe Hart & Prior way back when. I always thought Martin was the " boss" speaking to his man(ie. servant). I saw a maid milk a bull Every SQUIRT a bucketfull..... is the way I have it, much more sugestive |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Once Famous Date: 24 Apr 04 - 08:48 PM I just want you to know I never said this to any man. First of all, Chicagoans never say the word "fye" "Fry" yes. I have said that many times as they go quite well with a hot dog. I would not ever even consider saying "fye" to a woman, either. Thank you for reading this. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Peace Date: 24 Apr 04 - 09:04 PM Montreal (specifically the Province of Quebec) makes the best fries. (Martin don't you even THINK of startin'. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Lighter Date: 24 Apr 04 - 09:20 PM Both volumes of Hart & Prior's "Folk Songs of Olde England" plus the equally great "Summer Solstice" are all currently available on ONE CD from the UK. A Google search should turn it up. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Once Famous Date: 24 Apr 04 - 09:41 PM Hey Brucie Do they make fresh cut fries (not the frozen variety) that are not at all greasy and are a little crunch at the ends? These are the best I have found. Also a Chicago phenomenon is cheese fries, where auality hot melted cheddar, usually like the spreadable kind that comes in a plastic tub is pured over the fresh cut fries. Cheese fries, done right are divine. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Melani Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:19 AM We sing it at Ren faires. Elizabethans thought really silly, impossible stuff was funny (especially when drunk). |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Peace Date: 25 Apr 04 - 01:34 AM Hey, Martin. The fries I mean usually come from small stands by the sides of highways in Quebec. The stands are called 'casse croutes' (sp?) and they are cut from potatoes like right there (or at least within the past hour. They are deep fried to a medium-dark brown and served with salt and vinegar. Ambrosia, sheer and utter. (That is not steer and udder.) Sometime in the future, you and I will have to get loose in Chicago AND Montreal to do the taste tests. However, it's beginning to seem to me that Chicago dogs would go very well with Quebec fries, and steamies with Chicago fries. Man, I am getting hungry. Later, buddy. Bruce M |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Dave Hanson Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:57 AM They are NOT fries, they are called CHIPS and only we English know how to make them properly. eric |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Les in Chorlton Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:48 AM Thank you Malcolm, most helpful. How do you feel about what Jinky Wells and friends thought they were upto dancing them starnge dances? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Kevin Sheils Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:53 AM I always thought Martin was the " boss" speaking to his man(ie. servant). Whilst this seems a reasonable interpretation DtG's posting above with it the other way round seems more likely to me, now that I read and think about it. On reflection in another use of the word "Man', in Lou Reed's "Waiting for The Man", it's obvious who the "boss" in that relationship is. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 11:49 AM Fries are not chips. Potato chips are chips. If frys are chips, what are chips? Start getting used to calling it fish and frys. Chips come in a bag. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Micca Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:30 PM what Americans call "Chips" are actually Crisps!!!! |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Peace Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:57 PM One people divided by a common language. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 12:57 PM No, potato crisps are not potato chips. The product called Pringles are potatoe crisps. Pringles originally tried to pawn themselves off as potatoe chips, which are described by The Potato Chip Institute (yes, there is such a thing and it is a powerful organization that regulates quality in snack food) as slices of potato cooked in oil. Potato crisps are potatos, mashed and then machine formed and then cooked in oil. Every potato crisp is the same size and shape. The Potatoe Chip institue actually made Pringles change the name of their product. Case closed. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: YorkshireYankee Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:29 PM Case closed indeed, Martin... as long as you don't find yourself in England. I can guarantee you that if you come over here and ask for "chips", you will *not* get a bag containing very thin slices of potato cooked in oil -- regardless of what The Potato chip Institute has decreed. Also... if you ask for "egg roll", you will get... a fried egg -- placed between two halves of a bread roll! Cheers, YY who has been there, done that & decided *not* to get the tee-shirt |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Once Famous Date: 25 Apr 04 - 03:51 PM I'm bot planning on going. I'll just stay here where 250 million people know how to talk English. And an egg roll can be followed by some kung pao chicken. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: GUEST Date: 25 Apr 04 - 04:08 PM If you go to Poland 'chipsis' will get you crisps and if you want what we English call chips you ask for 'fritkis'. Don't know why I told you that. Anyway, as we invented them, we can call them what we like - as can Americans, even though they are wrong. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Walrus Date: 25 Apr 04 - 05:46 PM GUEST (04:08) You're Belgian? Ducking and running very very fast. Walrus By the bye, to make the best chips (yes real British chips, not those anaemic monstrosities made from re-processed dehydrated potato substitute that get sold as 'fries'), the freshly cut potato should be soaked in clean running water for about an hour (or two to three hours in still water changed frequently). |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 25 Apr 04 - 08:33 PM Walrus, that is too much time, money and equipment to expend in making something that's not even good for people. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 25 Apr 04 - 11:50 PM Real chips are double fried. The first deep frying seals the outside. They are then cooled, then the second deep frying cause the moisture to expand, giving you a crisp outer, with a moist soft delicous centre. The double frying also ensure that the temperature of teh oil does not drop, but is kept very high. Real chips are deep fried in Lard. If it is done right, very litle fat is absorbed, because firstly the high fat temperature seals the outside in the first deep frying too rapidly for the fat to be absorbed. The chips are then removed, allowing the fat to regain high temperature. The chips can then be kept for some hours, nowadays they even deep freeze them. The second frying, especially if they are deep frozen, produces magic light brown chips. There are slight modifications for chunky, normal and straw chips. Oven Bake chips are a different game. The right type of potato is essential too - the big fast food chains have actually spent heaps of money to get the right sort of potato. Robin (A Foodie!) |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Dave Masterson Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:21 AM Desperately trying to get thread back on course.......... It was very popular with Hartley Morris sessions back in the 70's. One extra verse added was: "I saw a snail drive a nail, faster than the British Rail." No change there then! |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: s&r Date: 26 Apr 04 - 03:43 AM still on thread: we always sang "every pull a bucket full" with a nice internal rhyme. Off thread my dictionary says that American is the English spoken in America. What are kettle chips??? |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: s&r Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:07 AM still creeping - this is in another thread vive le difference stu |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Gurney Date: 26 Apr 04 - 04:59 AM Back to the thread. It isn't fye, it is fie. Like many old words in English, this has several meanings. (1) True. (ie True, man, true) (2) Predestined. (3) A fairy. Don't quote me if you intend to sing this meaning in an UK pub. (4) A facetious exclamation of disapproval (ie Crap, man, crap) The Dict. of Archaic Words (1-2-3) and Collins (4) I've always understood that I'm singing (4) but after a few pints (1) also works. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: pavane Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:06 AM Thread Uncreep: The Dransfields - Rout of the Blues, 1970, I think |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: The Borchester Echo Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:26 AM Yep. But Robin and Barry recorded it as 'Who's the Fool Now?' |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Dave Bryant Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:47 AM I like the verse: I saw the Ale drink the Man . . . . . . . . by the bucket and the can. But I object to the verse that Hartley Morris used to sing that started: I heard Dave Bryant sing a song . . . . |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Dave Masterson Date: 26 Apr 04 - 07:59 AM Come on Dave, cough up... what was the second line! (If anyone want to pm me, I'll tell them! tee-hee...) |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Once Famous Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:23 AM French Fies? Then there is kettle cooked chips, my favorite, like those Cape Cod ones. |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Pied Piper Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:43 AM Maris Piper makes the best Chips with the double frying technique above. This variety was developed in the UK were we cook things rather than pulverise extrude and process in the cheapest oil to keep 100 million Americans morbidly obese. PP |
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Subject: RE: Martin said to his man From: Dave Bryant Date: 26 Apr 04 - 08:50 AM OK - I suppse that I'm thick-skinned enough. I heard Dave Bryant sing a song . . . . . . . It was too bloody loud and too bloody long ! Mind you, in some ways that's out of kilter with the other verses which are all about unlikely things - it's never been difficult getting me to sing ! |
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