BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: akenaton
Date: 01 May 04 - 04:56 PM

Gareth...Iv heard theres a space shuttle ready and waiting to blast off to a distant galaxy.
Can I respectfully suggest that you make use of the return portion of your ticket...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Gareth
Date: 01 May 04 - 04:34 PM

On the other hand -

Saddam Hussian could have fled.

Oooops Sorry that would have not been "Politically Correct"


Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 04 - 04:13 PM

"A few bad apples" - let's hope so. But some of those bad apples are higher up in the system than others. And when the stories about what has been going on at Guantanamo Bay are put into the picture, it looks as if soem of the bad apples who collude in the abuse of prisoners are very high up in the system indeed.

Just expressing shock and horror when the facts come to light isn't good enough - that can just be part of damage limitation and making sure the damage stays well away from the person protesting.

My feeling is that the presumption of innocence, until proved guilty, is right, for the people directly accused of being involved. But once it has been proved that the abuse has taken place, people at all points higher up the chain of command should be presumed guilty, unless they can demonstrate that they did all that could reasonably be required to prevent and to uncover these kinds of abuses. Being in command should imply that. That's what "the buck stops here" means.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST,citizen
Date: 01 May 04 - 04:10 PM

What will it take for all to see that this "war" on a crippled nation -bombed for over 10 yrs daily, segmented into 3 zones with kurdish area functionally autonomous cia agents throughout shia areas, was NEVER a real threat to US security?

The only threat was to US domination of oil region and the need for bases in area to protect strategic oil reserves and damper on anti-Israel action. Interesting the war needed to happen not so much after 9/11 as after political situation made meaningful bases in Saudi Arabia impossible.

War is organized violence and often efficient violence to attain political goals-the rest is illusion.

The photos of women dominating men through sexual torture/violence will strike to the core of the muslim world view that america represents the greatest evil to their view of life imaginable.

When will the arrogance stop? Before or after what is left of our constitutional republic (once the greatest force for good the world had ever known) is completely finished? See rise and fall of roman empire for surprisingly similar story of republican demise and decadent military dictatorship born....

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: InOBU
Date: 01 May 04 - 03:44 PM

A suggestion, for a moment, most Mucatter's nations (not all my Irish friends) are in nations devided by this awful war. I say awful for the hundereds of American dead, the many British dead, the Italian dead, the thousands of Iraqi dead, this like all wars is an awful thing. We all agree on both sides that there should be a better way.
In that light let's try to be respectful of each other as we discuss this, to show civilized people can find a better way, larry

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 May 04 - 03:27 PM

GUEST, I take it you're finking on the NEA for Bush, et al. now as well?

I don't care how you take my comments -- I've been against the whole mess since before it happened and I've posted that more than once. And yes, I'm quite certain that your puppetmasters know where I am, since I haven't made any secrets of THAT either.

You, on the other hand, protest too much to be anything but a card-carrying stoolie for Ashcroft and Ridge. Spewing anti-whatever bilge as you do, you can only be someone baiting a trap.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: akenaton
Date: 01 May 04 - 03:21 PM

Sorry Amos ....Great minds and all that...

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Amos
Date: 01 May 04 - 03:18 PM

DougR:

How is it that torturing those who are captured is "deeply disgusting" and "not the American way", to borrow Bush's phrases, but going in and spilling untold numbers of body parts and gallons of blood on the ands of Mesopotamia is, um, the American way?? I have no vet for torture, but why is it more acceptable than militarized murder? Does it not strike you that the man who signed off on starting a river of such murders is hypocritical to be "deeply disgusted" at a little torture?   Or is there some nuance of rationalization that makes the deaths of Iraqi men and women acceptable? How is it justified in your mind?


A

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: akenaton
Date: 01 May 04 - 03:17 PM

Doug ... You and your allies on the right should be apologising for your stance on this issue right from the start.
Iv watched with amazement,your pathetic sqirming, as the "coalition " lurches from one disaster to the next.
I fail to see how any honourable person can attempt to justify the actions of our idiot leaders.
The amount of public feeling against this war,from people in all walks of life ,not just "leftyCommies",should have sent warning signs ,even to the most blinkered of observers.
Not one of you "warriors " who post on Mudcat have had the guts to admit that you were wrong and that the whole enterprise has been "Horse Pucky".
Take a look at the postings of McGrath, who ,even when the war seemed to be going well,according to the right wing press,continually warned that it was a disaster and would end in more,not less terrorism.
Mind you I dont think McGrath realised the terrorism would be committed by "Coalition troops"....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: MARINER
Date: 01 May 04 - 03:14 PM

It doesn't surprise me at all to hear of British troops torturing prisoners.Their actions in the Falklands were every bit as bad but were well covered up by the authorities.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: DougR
Date: 01 May 04 - 02:46 PM

It seems I too hastily posted "Horse Pucky" on this thread. I apologize for doing so.

It seems to me, though, that such abuses have been limited to a few bad apples in the barrel. Those that do such things should be punished as severly as the law allows. President Bush expressed regrets and told the press that the people involved would be punished.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 04 - 02:45 PM

The same GUEST again?

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 02:17 PM

I can't agree with sweeping generalizations that "most soldiers are decent people" because that hasn't been my experience. In my experience, soliders and military people are a pretty strange breed of folks to begin with, and this sort of scandal only reinforces my belief that we need a whole lot more civilian control and oversight of the military, just as we do of the civilian police forces.

In my experience, military people are prone to violence, intolerance, are bigoted, and have more mental health problems than the general population. They don't make very good public servants, as others have noted, because the values that we hold in common for civilian life is so at odds with the values of military life.

I don't believe, ard mhaca, that is the way it is, therefore that is the way it will always be. I believe in the power of people to reform their governing institutions. But the first step on that road, is to recognize how we are lying to ourselves. At this point in history, Americans are tremendously deluded about their own military forces, and the abuses and atrocities being committed by them around the world. Now, I wasn't even alive during WWII. But every war, every "police action", every military intervention, every covert operation conducted by my government in my lifetime, has been without exception, a disaster for the people it has been directed against. Our military and intelligence forces has made us the monsters of the world, and nowhere is that more apparent than in Iraq.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 May 04 - 02:02 PM

It was really sickening to read the torture that young Iraqi endured at the hands of the British troops.
The amazing thing about this latest scandal concerning an occupying force is the surprise from the British media,that their Army could behave this way, their use of torture in N I reland was condemned by the European Court of Human Rights on more than one occasion.
Forces of occupation have always brutalised the citizens of whatever country they have overran, it will never change.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 04 - 01:45 PM

But how much respect can a phantom unnamed GUEST command anyway, when we can't even know it's the same one two posts running?

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 01:41 PM

I also note the majority of Mudcat contributors, especially the vets, are very gung-ho military cheerleaders, who shout down and try and bully anyone who doesn't agree with them.

As I said, I don't have any responcet for their opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Occupation Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 04 - 01:31 PM

I think the heading I've give this post should replace the existing one on the forum. It's not just Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 04 - 01:29 PM

"Under combat conditions " - though in the case of the American episode, it wasn't "combat conditions", it was "interrogation conditions", and the pictures seem to indicate that those involved felt that what they were doing was in line with what they were expected to be doing.

Which is consistent with stuff in the diary of one of those accused:January 22,2004...I told the battalion commander that I didn't like the way it was going and his reply was 'Don't worry about it. I give you permission to do it'

With the British example in the news, it doesn't appear to have been interrogation, rather a random bunch of squaddies having fun beating up a lad accused of stealing. And maybe the most chilling thing in the report is where it says: One of the soldiers said: "Basically this guy was dying as he couldn't take any more. An officer came down. It was 'Get rid of him - I haven't seen him'. The paperwork gets ripped. So they threw him out, still with a bag on his head."

And elsewhere: "We got a warning, saying the Military Police had found a video of people throwing prisoners off a bridge. It wasn't 'Don't do it' or 'Stop it'. It was 'Get rid of it.' "

The occasional bunch of thugs in uniform is nasty, but predictable. But when it involves officers, and the Military Police, colluding in this kind of thing, it becomes far more significant.

Most soldiers are decent people - but if they are immersed in a military culture which expects and covers up for, and even encourages sadism, what chance do they have to stay that way?

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 04 - 01:03 PM

Obviously what they really need to do is strike a deal with Saddam, put him back in charge to straighten things out in Iraq, rearm him to the teeth and together launch a new full-scale invasion of Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia...or all three. (heh!) I'm gonna write Cheney and suggest it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 May 04 - 12:51 PM

I do credit Big Mick highly for his comments and the experience he speaks from. I was never in the armed forces during the Vietnam War period and cannot speak directly to that experience; the closest I came was the Group W. Bench in the final attempt on the part of my draft board to extract me from my 3rd year in the Peace Corps and send me some place where my body might be more useful.

I note the President Bush is rather clear that "torturing Iraqi prisoners" is not right and those who did it will be punished. He said nothing about the imprisoned combatents in Cuba, who remain in limbo.

I also note that the Islamic media is covering these disclosures extensively, and this is just the kind of outrageous practice needed to line up more people against us all over the world. And of course, no one should believe this is the only incident of this type occuring in Iraq; it's just a well-documented one and there can be no justification or excuse for it. It's ironic that Saddam's torture of prisoners was one of the surviving moral justifications for the invasion and replacement of his regime.

Now we've apparently changed policy again from the goal of a democratically elected government to finding an Iraqi general who can run the place for us. Maybe I've skipped a few steps but that seems to be where the Bush Adminstration is running now. Watch out!

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 May 04 - 11:35 AM

Well said there, Harpgirl.

There was a lot of torturing and summary execution of enemy soldiers in the Pacific War...the Japanese were certainly most notorious for that, but it was also done by Allied soldiers to the Japanese. I knew a guy who was a Marine sergeant and fought in most of the island battles. He said that only a few Japanese soldiers ever surrendered, but that it was darned near impossible for him to stop the American soldiers in his unit and other units from torturing and killing those surrendered Japanese brutally the moment they thought no officer was looking. There were some pretty awful stories. The general attitude was that the Japanese were subhumans and deserved no mercy. The odd thing is that that's rather the way the Japanese saw the Americans too. War breeds hatred and insanity, and it's no wonder that these things happen under combat conditions when young man have been brutalized through harsh discipline and propaganda and traumatized through mortal combat.

People will use it as a political football when it suits their agenda, and they will deny it when it doesn't.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:57 AM

By Bush administration standards Rapaire, I'm technically a terrorist because I'm a card carrying member of the NEA.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:49 AM

Gee, GUEST, I'd have thought you'd know all that about the Reserves, working for Ashcroft, Ridge & Co. as you do.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Rapparee
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:48 AM

As a former National Guardsman:

1. The Guard has a dual role: the respond in times of crisis in the State (floods, tornadoes, riot, earthquake) and to be activated as part of the regular Army or Air Force in time of war. To that end they are trained in their federal role (e.g., as artillerists or quartermasters) AND in their state role (e.g., riot control training).

2. The Reserves (Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines, Coast Guard) have only a federal role and are only called to support State or civilian operations in extreme cases (e.g., an out of control wildfire); otherwise they train in their unit's speciality.

3. The individual ready reserve is composed of individuals who, although once trained in the Armed Forces, have for one reason or another been been seperated from the active reserve and are not assigned to a particular unit. These folks basically sit around until called up.

Hope this helps clarify the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:38 AM

PeterT, if you typed in the exact title of this thread, or the beginning of it, and it is the only title/string of words that is an exact match, then it will of course come up first in a google search. You could do this for any number of Mudcat thread titles.

Perhaps you aren't clear on how the google search engine works?

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:24 AM

I typed "American Soldiers Torturing" into Google, and this BS Thread was the very first reference, above CBS NEWS, and a hundred other major references/sources. I have started a new thread on this.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:21 AM

My understanding of the Reserve is that all troops are trained for combat situations. However, it is also my understanding the National Guard also trains to do policing, crowd control, etc. to handle civilian emergencies in the US.

Can anyone clarify this murky area for us?

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: artbrooks
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:15 AM

These "military prisons" are being run by Army Reserve units organized specifically for that purpose, not by combat soldiers. The current issue, and this wasn't the first, involves the 800th MP Brigade out of someplace in New York. The problem (clearly one of many) that they are encountering is the large numbers of non-unit reservists ("Individual Ready Reservists") called out of civilian life and assigned to the camp with either inadequate or no training.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Peter T.
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:14 AM

On a completely different note, I wonder how many people posting here to this thread have even been on Mudcat before. Is this the effect of Google? People just typing in "American Soldiers Torturing" and Mudcat BS Threads come up? I have noticed, for example, that some of the music discussion threads are now almost immediately available in Google as a search engine.



yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:14 AM

I agree with you 1000% harpgirl.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: harpgirl
Date: 01 May 04 - 10:02 AM

Mark Kimmitt is delusional if he thinks men and women trained in hand to hand mortal combat with an enemy that will either kill them or be killed, will then treat prisoners of war with "respect and dignity."

No human being on earth can maintain that kind of dichotomy in their behavioral, mental, and emotional life in times of war, with assurance. Prisons and prisoners of war should be handled only by individuals not trained in mortal combat nor recently fighting for their lives, if we expect them to not be tortured.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 09:47 AM

And Big Mick, I don't know who you think I am, but I don't work at a university. I work on the front lines in an inner city high school in a major metropolitian area, where I have worked and lived for the last 19 years.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 09:39 AM

Big Mick, you once again come charging into a thread about the US military, to defend your blindly US-centric militarist beliefs here, just as you always do: largely to assuage your own guilty conscience of what you did as a solider, and to justify what it is the US military is notorious for the world over.

I have no respect for your opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 09:33 AM

I have just finished reading some articles on this scandal in several American online newspapers.

The Patriot Act Media is once again pulling the wool over the eyes of the American public about the Iraq war and the US military, and working against our public interest and right to know.

Only a handful of US newspapers has published even one single photograph in connection with this story about the photographs.

The majority of the US newspapers made what appears to be a terrifyingly uniform editorial decision: not to show the American people the photographs, even though they are being shown in newspapers and being broadcast by TV news outlets around the world.

That fact, more than any other, should tell us what the likely outcome of this so-called "investigation" will be. I believe the US government, and in particular, the US military will continue turning our blind eye to the truth.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 May 04 - 09:31 AM

Of course you can't. You are an ivory tower intellectual. You have no concept, or ability to understand how the real world works. That is why you lose most of these discussions. While your ideal is admirable, in the real world it doesn't work.

The first premise I would offer is based on my experiences. Most of the members of the Armed Forces of the various nations that I served alongside were decent and honorable men and women who felt as though they were defending free society, as well as the values they chose to live under. When I say most, I am saying in excess of 90%. These people were not torturers, nor would they tolerate torture. They were not abusers of civilians, in fact would defend civilians that were being abused. These statements are from experience, GUEST, not from sitting in a University Library and pointing out what you think is wrong with the world.

The second premise is that what makes the service honorable is that decent people trying to do what is right are forced by circumstances we are placed in to do these horrible things, and still remain human. This is a very tough thing to do. At times, in the worst of it, one must hold on to a vision of their life, their hopes, and their dreams, just to stay human. And if one ever feels like they are doing this for anything other than what they believe is the right thing to do, they need to get out. Or they will turn into what you have described.

Which brings us to Iraq. Very tough to justify why we went in, but I would respect the opinions of stigweard, GUEST, and others much more if I had heard the outrage they aim at the US and Great Britain now, when Saddam was torturing, murdering, and using horrible tactics on the Iraqui's. While I don't believe that we needed to do what we have done, I note that I never hear this from the anti-military folks. Which is why I have a very cynical view of GUEST and her opinions.

Peter T. is the most reasoned voice in this debate, IMO, and that is the norm with him. For a person who has never experienced war first hand, he has a wisdom that is refreshing. I note, admittedly a cynical notation, that GUEST is trying to suck up to him even to the extent that she almost contradicts herself in the absence of disagreement.

The one thing that I will absolutely agree with, and I am on record as having said this many times in this forum. Old men need to examine very closely the cost before sending young men to war. They need to approach invasions such as these as if it were going to happen in their homes. Only then can they appreciate the terrible cost. Perhaps if they were made to feel what it would be like if it happened to those that they love, they would not be so quick to inflict it on others.

One last thing, in order that I may address what this thread, at least ostensibly, was about. I know men who were unwilling to torture or kill innocents or prisoners. These men were willing to sacrifice their careers before allowing it. They felt, as I do, that if the line was crossed, then the men responsible all the way up the line, must be punished to the maximum extent possible.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 04 - 08:56 AM

The issue, as I see it, isn't one of military policy, but of military culture, as many good posts to this thread have noted.

There is a double standard: one is the policy of the military, which theoretically at least pays lip service to high, moral values and standards for the military. The second is the culture of the military, which is quite sadistic, controlling, manipulative, and abusive.

You can dress up the worst of human behavior in clean, neatly pressed military uniforms with shiny buttons. But there is no denying what their ultimate raison d'etre is: to kill people their politicians label as "our enemies".

That is the nature of the game, pure and simple. That is why being in combat destroys and eats the soul of the combatants as the perpetrators of atrocities against humanity, and the civilians who constitute, by a huge margin, the victims of combat.

The greatest irony of all to me is that we call the perpetrators of the most dishonorable practice known to human kind--the murder of our own fellow humans, honorable and respectable.

We certainly give them more respect and honor than we give to our teachers of future generations, nurses who tend the sick and wounded, social workers who spend their working lives trying to patch up broken humans and help them avoid breaking other humans due to their own tremendous psychic pain...

No, I just can't agree that the warrior is a person who should be honored and respected for what they do, which is always utterly destructive.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST,Plumbob
Date: 01 May 04 - 08:10 AM

I think that the public in general are far to quick in condeming the soldiers in question, what I have deduced from the heavily censored photos is that the participants are simply involved in mutual sexual acts, the woman is quite relaxed, the person standing on the box, could be Iraqi or American or a Red Indian, and apart from standing on a box, doesent look to be in too much trouble, as for the pile of bodies, I cant see if they are sporting erections, but if it turns out they are my suspicions will be, to some degree, proven, Whatever, these soldiers are sons and daughters of America, shame on those that condem them without knowing the facts..

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 09:12 PM

Hmmmmmm? Well l.ooks as if I didn't order up the nukin' on 'nuff folks. Couple o' Guest's could use a good nukin', too...

But seriously, I'm kinda concerned about guys who have been in Iraq too long and given the assignmnet to watch Iraqi confinees. Seems to be a certain fascination with nude Iraqi men??? Hmmmmmm??? Thin "Deliverance" here...

Or don't...

I'd rather not but, hey, different stokes fir different folks...

Still don't excuse nuthin'... When I find out where them 6 US guys are from, I'll add their neigborhoods to the *Nukin List*...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 09:00 PM

There can come a time in an interrogation, when you know that if you go beyond a certain point, the information you are likely to receive is even more suspect than the suspect himself.

Anyone dedicated to their job, will rarely, if ever, cross that point, because the rest is emotion, and it has no place in fact-finding.

And I correct my earlier post... it was the prisoner who the British soldier was photographed urinating on, that was the thief.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 08:51 PM

being oppressed here by the over bearing taxes and interest rates and crime and so they want to give me freedom from all that.. and they feel it's good for me.. well hell.. damn right I'm gonna be fighting them with whatever means I have available.. As they say.. all is fair in love and war.. but cowardice is something that was portrayed by these soldiers that abused prisoners that are tied and these soldiers do not make our military look good.. they are the scum of the military because our military is better than that.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST,Adam
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 08:48 PM

I read a review here that said that war does strange things to people and makes them do such horrible things. Also that the people they fight against do not follow any rules so it makes them want to do such things. Let's see....

A person who is brave and honorable fights the enemy that attacks him. The coward and wretch is the one that hurts those who has done nothing to them in retaliation for the anguish caused by someone that might have resembled them or not.   Not to mention, if I was sitting in my home and I saw the chinese come in here and say that they want to implement communism because they believe that I'M

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 08:03 PM

I see the British aren't be to outdone - UK troops in Iraqi torture probe

But I note that the people involved have been sure to try to stay unidentifiable - in contrast to the US version. (That could seem to suggest that the US lot were assuming that what they were up to was OK with the authorities, but the British weren't. But there could be other reasons for that difference.)

..................

Chief Chaos's comments about how training soldiers to dehumanise the enemy being bloody stupid, because it makes them underestimate them, makes a lot of sense. But I think dehumisation is built into war, it doesn't need training - the aim of training should be to counter that kind of thinking, which is liable to get you killed.

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 07:59 PM

I would better describe the taking of these photographs as an oversight on the maxim 'if you're going to do it, make sure you don't get caught'.

I have seen reportage at check points; quite 'ordinary' footage, if you will, showing the aggressive and humiliating way some of the soldiers treat passers-by to a scene. They herd them, shout at them in English, glare at them, and threaten them.

I will accept that this does not happen all of the time, by all of the soldiers, but the capacity is there, and discretion is given a wide berth.

It is quite clear, though that it wasn't really the Iraqis that were caught with their pants down.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST,plumbob
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 07:39 PM

Has anyone considered the possibility that the photos a merely posed porn and that all of the participants are willing

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 07:09 PM

I think the guy with the hood over his head, and the electrodes attached, was a thief, from what I can gather from recent news reports.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: SINSULL
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 06:40 PM

I for one am proud of our success in toppling the sadistic dictator Saddam Hussein and introducing the joys of democracy to Iraq.
SINS (yes, I am being sarcastic)

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 06:17 PM

Guest, Guest:

You're getting a little shrill, there, and it seems to be affecting your spelling...


A

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 06:13 PM

On the Media Scandal


A

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: GUEST,GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 06:08 PM

Proud American:


Well, tell us all for Gods sake, what are you doing outside there in Iraq? protecting the U.S & it's people hu? from what? from nuclear weapons hu? from the connection between S. Hussein & Alqaeda hu?

WELL THOSE TURNED OUT TO BE SHEAR LIES ..... IT'S A SCANDAL & A SHAME ON THE U.S & THOSE WHO FOLLOW IT'S STEPS BLINDLY!

Subject: RE: BS: American Soldiers Torturing Iraqis
From: Amos
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 05:51 PM

I notice our Furless Liter is "disgusted" by the images of torture because it is not the "American way"...but apparently he believes that the whole invade and slaughter shtick -- which destroyed thousands of lives -- somehow qualifies.

Maybe he saves his disgust for those secrets which are exposed...but he sure seems to be missing the point.


A