BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Jim McCallan
Date: 12 May 04 - 02:01 AM

"I suppose you could not call what happened to the young man who was beheaded as torture either?"

Oh come now, Doug. Just because I'm not 'with you', does not mean that I'm 'against you'. This has been the constant and simplistic accusation from the Bush side all along.
If you knew me, and knew my history, you would never even think that thought.

I'm disgusted by all of it Doug, and I am not looking forward one little bit to being witness to these 'revenge actions' (as we have been promised there will be more), that are going to be foisted upon us.

Dd you not forsee this kind of thing happening?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:36 AM

DougR - You are smug and ignorant. It was murder, you asshole!

As far as we know, it was a set-up to deflect the public's attention from the abuse of Iraqi prisoners. We will probably never know the truth but any way you look at it, it was murder. Have a little respect.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:32 AM

I suppose you could not call what happened to the young man who was beheaded as torture either. It was probably all over pretty quick for him, right? I wonder why the terrorists didn't do real damage to the poor young guy? They could have forced him to strip his clothes off or something! That would have been major torture!
-----

In the tape; they hack at the man's throat 4 or 5 times, and you hear the man screaming on the first hack or two.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: DougR
Date: 12 May 04 - 01:26 AM

I suppose you could not call what happened to the young man who was beheaded as torture either. It was probably all over pretty quick for him, right? I wonder why the terrorists didn't do real damage to the poor young guy? They could have forced him to strip his clothes off or something! That would have been major torture!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 12 May 04 - 12:06 AM

Mahalo nui loa, Two_bears, my brother.

From the article linked to above

"Current and former intelligence officials now say Zarqawi's links to al-Qaida are more tenuous - the CIA now says Zarqawi considers himself independent of al-Qaida, for example. And while Zarqawi spent time in Iraq, it's unclear whether Saddam's regime simply allowed him to be there or actively tried to work with him."

That was in July 2003.

After we liberated Iraq, every terrorist and his uncle (barring our innocent Iraqi brothers and sisters, of course) lined up to take the sacred suicide belt on behalf of Bin Laden.
It doesn't mean that it was the case before the invasion, however.

You see, Two_bears, contrary to what you may have been told, I am not critical of the UK and the US per se. I'm only critical of them when they don't do things right.

And there has been a lot done wrong, in my opinion, since Feb. 5 2003

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:29 PM

Check it out! You are peddling old (and discredited) news.
-----

   It is only discredited because the mass media refuses to report an
   Al Qaeda base in Iraq.

   Last Saturday Nick Berg was beheaded by Al Qaeda members in
   revenge for the idiotic behaviour of the prison guards. The News
   media keeps telling us there is no link between A; Qaeda and Iraq.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:43 PM

Fair enough, Teribus.. Salman Pak lies at 33°19'26"N 44°10'22"E
And I know that we are too honourable to 'border incurse', however...

Mahalo nui loa, Two_bears, my brother.

Check it out! You are peddling old (and discredited) news.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:27 PM

Two bears - I said Saddam had nit attacked America, and your post didn't contain anything to s=uggest that he had.

   You are partially correct in the statement that Saddam did not
   attack the USA.

   Saddam did not attack America; but he DID support terrorists that
   attacked America, and Israel, and he DID violate the 17 UN rulings
   against Iraq over the past 13 years.

There is no credible evidence whatsoever linking Saddam's regime with Al Qaeda. And in view of the hatred between those two organisations, it is very unlikely that any will be forthcoming.

   There are Satellite photos of the Al Qaeda training base in Salman
   Paq. If you cared to look; you could see the Boeing 727 fuselage
   on the ground.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:26 PM

..., and I'll decide whether I answer you, or not....

;-)

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:23 PM

"I sent him a PM several days ago, and he has yet to answer."

Anything you want to say to me, you do it here, Two_bears

:-)

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:19 PM

Two Bears it doesn't take courage to have your wife die!

   I admire your courage with how you handled the situation.

   You went through a lot there with breaking. This is why you are
   one of my heroes

   I expect to come up to Canada to visit Daylia and LH and several
   friends in the near future; but I'm not exactly sure when that
   will be.

   I would like to meet you even if you want to give me a punch in
   the face. Just allow me to take off my glasses first. OK? ;-)

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 09:12 PM

You Must remember Two Bears that Jim McCallan only criticises those the Uk and the US of A,

   I found that out already

In the past when I have aske him to justify his "statements" he runs away, or resorts to insults.

   I sent him a PM several days ago, and he has yet to answer.

No Two Bears, I suggest that you remember the convention, put quotes in italics, and keep pointing out the hypocracy Jim McC and others, (possiblely the same person.

   Exactly how does one put the quote into italics. I stopped
   programming about 8 years ago, so I do not do html.

   Send me a PM.

But please no obscenities - We do not wish you sink to thier (his?) level.

   OK. I don't like to use obsenities; but some people are so blind
   They get on my nerves.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 May 04 - 08:11 PM

Two bears - I said Saddam had nit attacked America, and your post didn't contain anything to s=uggest that he had.

There is no credible evidence whatsoever linking Saddam's regime with Al Qaeda. And in view of the hatred between those two organisations, it is very unlikely that any will be forthcoming.

My understanding is that even the Bush administration has give up peddling this notion. It's got the same kind of credibility as those stories about how the USA never really sent men to the Moon. By that I mean, a lot of people in the USA appear to believe it, but it's nonsense.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Raptor
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:40 PM

Two Bears it doesn't take courage to have your wife die!

Are you comming up for the Ontario meet?

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 04 - 07:34 PM

LittleHawk:
"The USA and Britain have been actively engaged in attacking Iraq (directly or indirectly) ever since 1991"

I think the Iraq invasion of Kuwait might have had something to do with that.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 11 May 04 - 06:58 PM

You Must remember Two Bears that Jim McCallan only criticises those the Uk and the US of A,

In the past when I have aske him to justify his "statements" he runs away, or resorts to insults.

No doubt whilst telling himself how brave and forthright he is.

No Jim Lad we see the trees and the forests. What a pity you are so blind in your own self esteem that you can not.

No Two Bears, I suggest that you remember the convention, put quotes in italics, and keep pointing out the hypocracy Jim McC and others, (possiblely the same person.

But please no obscenities - We do not wish you sink to thier (his?) level.

Gareth

(More notes for Jim to put in his notebook) - And I'am still waiting for you to justify your previous bragado.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:58 PM

"What is your problem? Unable to see the forest for the trees?"
No, Two_bears, maybe the desert fox could not see the dunes for the sand.
On the other hand, maybe they did, and didn't think it important enough.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:25 PM

They didn't swing an axe against his haed or use a broad sword in one fell swoop. They held his head to one side and sawed it off while the American screamed and Arabs ran video feed to the world.
----

Don:

Thank you for explaining how he died. I had not seen the video yet.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:18 PM

I remember a saying from my childhood: "two wrongs don't make a right." Revenge, regardless of who is taking it and where it starts, never ends.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:18 PM

As I said before, I am opposed to terrorism and wanton brutality regardless of who commits it: whether it is the USA, the Iraqis, the Israelis or the Palestinians. The entire Muslim world contains quite a few angry people who would be willing to help assist suicide bombers to attack both Israel and the USA. The reasons why go back for over 50 years, and are many. To expect no assistance from Saddam's Iraq to those suicide bombers, when they are getting active assistance from elements in all the other Muslic countries (such as our allies, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan) would be ridiculous. The USA and Britain have been actively engaged in attacking Iraq (directly or indirectly) ever since 1991. Why would the Iraqis not retaliate?

Therefore such aid to a few suicide bombers (but not to 911) is no particular justification for invading Iraq. If anyone were going to be invaded for helping and funding Muslim terrorists and putting 911 into action it would be Saudi Arabia...but the USA does not want that country destabilized because it is their most crucial foreign oil source, and it is the religious centre of Islam. Too hot to handle. Accordingly...no invasion of Saudi Arabia was undertaken.

Your mistake, Two Bears, is in assuming that the War on Terrorism is being fought for good and idealistic reasons...like protecting American citizens and protecting democracy.

It is not. It's being fought mainly for oil, secondarily for other considerations of pure pragmatic power and control in the world. No politician will tell you that, because it wouldn't sound good, that's all! And people would not support it.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 04:18 PM

Two bears : They should never have invaded Iraq in the first place. They are a hostile occupying force on land that does not belong to them, and can certainly expect further resistance...until they leave.
----

   Wrong Raptor; my brother.

   Do you remember the Bush Doctrine (they would attack the
   terrorists, and the regimes that supported the terrorists)

   In an earlier message; I listed several documented facts that Iraq
   was supporting assorted branches of terroists including the PLO
   and Al Qaeda

   We will NEVER agree on that.

I think you need to know your Hero, George Bush, Invaded for one reason, OIL! and nothing else, There were no WMD's or links to

   George Bush is NOT my hero. He has done several things I detest.

   He signed the Patriot Act 1&2, and he has done several other
   things that infringes on our bill of rights.

   In another thread; I wrote that there were at least 1,000 people I
   would vote for before I would vote for Bush (I included several
   women like Margaret Thatcher, Condaleeza Rice, Jean Kirkpatrick,
   etc.

   Unfortunately; I have the choice of tweedle dee, terrdle dum, and
   tweedle dumber, etc.

   Saddam Husseein HAD WMDs. He used them against Iran, He used them
   against the Kurds, etc.

   We will see whether the invasion of Iraq was for oil or not.

   If it was for oil; then why didn't the U.S. Occupy Saudi Aarbia,
   or keep Kuwait when they had the choice, and furthermore; why   
   didn't the U.S. invade Argentina (it would be a lot more
   convenient that getting oil from the middle East), or gasp; why
   doesn't the U.S. get their own oil (the thousands of wells in the
   U.S. that have been capped, pr dril for oil in the Anwar (that
   would replace ALL of the oil we get from Saudi Arabia for more
   than 30 years!

   Tell a lie loud enough, and often enough; and people believe it is
   the truth!   

George Bush hasn't attended a single soldiers Funeral because he doesn't want to be Photographed with a coffin before the election!

   Do you have any concept regarding the security of the president?

   It is a FACT that He HAS visited the families of the soldiers, and
   has visited injured soldiers.

   Can you imagine the chaos it would cause to force the attendees of
   the funeral to be wanded for weapons, then have armed Secret
   service agents protecting him from threats inside and outside the
   funeral home or church. It would be a real feeding frenzy for the
   news media.

   May I remind you that when President Clinton had his hair cut
   aboard Air force one that ALL landings and take offs at the air
   port came to a complete halt for 90 minutes.

You need a new hero!

   G.W. Bush is NOT my hero. I have several heroes.

   My numerous teachers.
   You for your courage
   Daylia for the work she has done on herself in the past year.
   Condaleeza Rice for her intelegence.
   Joseph Lieberman for understanding evil when he sees it.
   John F. Kenedy for the courage to stand up to the USSR in the
      Missle Crisis.
   Franklin Delano Roosevelt for his leadership after Pearl Harbor
      was attacked, and leading the U.S. Through the Great Depression

   And lots more.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:45 PM

From an earlier thread

"But do all of my friends in the Mudcat who have so visciously attacked the United States Volunteer soldier feel that it is better to shoot the enemy while hiding behind civilian clothes, burn alive the wounded, drag the bodies through the streets and hang the remains from a bridge."

Now the Al Quieda Terrorists have beheaded a man on video and shown it around the world. They say this is in reparation for some brainless GI MP's making men stand naked in front of each other while an unvieled woman looks on smiling. The say it is revenge for hooding a man and telling him he will be electrocuted if he sits down. I imagine it is also revenge for beating someone, or several someones. I supose it is also revenge for being Christian on Muslin soil.

They didn't swing an axe against his haed or use a broad sword in one fell swoop. They held his head to one side and sawed it off while the American screamed and Arabs ran video feed to the world.

I image it is all fair now isn't it?

Don

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:45 PM

Salman Pak was in the Southern No Fly Zone, and could have been taken out at any time, over a number of years
-----

What is your problem? Unable to see the forest for the trees?

It was STILL under the rule of Saddam Hussein.

The fact there was a no fly zone did not mean that Hussein could not be aware of the training base. They were still free to move about via car, or truck.

The reason for the no fly zones was to prevent Hussein from attacking the Moslems in the south, and the Kurds in the north.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:40 PM

Saddam's regime was a very nasty one. But not to be confused with Al Qaeda, or with those who had attacked the USA at any time. (Though efforts were made by the US government to confuse them at part of the run-up to the war.)
-----

Could you pass me some of what you've been smoking?

Embedded reporters with the U.S. Military showed the assorted PLO terrorist training bases and the suicide belts that was found in IRAQ.

I mentioned the Al Qaeda training base in Salman Paq IRAQ with the wingless fuselage of a Boeing 727 jet where terrorists were trained to hijack jets.

The terrorist Abu Nidal died or was killed in Baghdad, Iraq. If memory serves this was the leader of the thugs that hijacked the Achile Lauro ship on the high seas.

Saddam Hussein gifted families of Palestinian homicide bombers with $25,000.

How many bricks have to fall on your head before you understand that Iraq was a supporter of terrorism including Al Qaeda!

Saturday Al Qaeda decapitated Nick Berg from Philadelphia allegedly because of the abuse in the prison.

Al Qaeda decapitated Daniel Pearl just because he was Jewish.

These terrorists commit atrocity after atrocity, and the U.S. News Media will not show them, The News Media will not even replay the attacks on the twin towers where 3000+ INOCENT civilians were murdered!

My good friend Little Hawk alleged that I was swayed by propoganda.

Not so. There is PLENTY of propoganda in the news media to blame the western victims instead of the terrorists, then when Americans do something shameful and stupid; the news media is the first to blame the abusers.

The news media do their best to have Donald Rumsfeld step down, and do not ask for the woman brigadeer general (Kopenski (Not sure of the spelling)) that was in charge of the prison to even be punished!

I say investigate the matter of the prison, and the ones that are guilty, or ordered the shameful treatment should be punished (no matter how high it goes) but use logic and reason instead of blind emotion, and blame the ones that are really guilty!

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: DonMeixner
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:35 PM

Because it is Metchosin. Because it is.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Metchosin
Date: 11 May 04 - 02:32 PM

why do I get the feeling that this is an episode of Max Headroom........

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 May 04 - 02:08 PM

This indicates that Kerry and Bush are about even, with 47% (+/-2) each. That is, unless Nader really runs, in which case Bush has a 2-4% lead. It looks as if 3/4 of the Nader votes come from the Kerry column. This CBS poll specifically on the war indicates that Bush's support level is well below 50% and falling steadily.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 11 May 04 - 01:20 PM

dianavan - beware the polls!
The majority of the American public didn't vote for him.
Who did the polls ask and where? I check the CNN polls and participate but even there I can log off the site, come back and vote again and again and again.

We're awake! And even some of the moderate republicans are starting to awaken!

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: dianavan
Date: 11 May 04 - 01:02 PM

Little Hawk - good post! You're right! America has had a double standard for a long time. Nuclear wearpons, weapons of mass destruction, and terrorism are all part of American Imperialism. But its O.K. because they have God on their side and they're fighting for democracy, right? I see that the majority of the American public are still standing behind Bush. When will they wake up?

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:48 AM

Hi Teribus.

If you go to this page Here (it is a 'Flash' presentation by The Guardian), click on 'Weapons Sites => Biological. Salman Pak looks as if it is below the 33rd.

I could be thinking of a different Salman Pak, though.

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 11 May 04 - 11:22 AM

Jim McCallan 10 May 04 - 07:17 PM

"Salman Pak was in the Southern No Fly Zone, and could have been taken out at any time, over a number of years"

Salman Pak, last time I looked was North of the 33rd parallel, therefore outside the Southern No-Fly Zone.

As to the question asked a little bit earlier on:

"how would YOU get the information you needed? What is an acceptable way of gaining intelligence?"

How about:
- Remove watch, or any other means of referencing time
- Completely dark room
- Complete and utter silence

Place person to be interrogated under the above circumstances for approximately 3 - 6 hours, then just sit him down and talk to him quietly and rationally - it's amazing how effective it is.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:54 AM

Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment, 1984

Article 1

1.        For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 May 04 - 10:33 AM

"how would YOU get the information you needed? What is an acceptable way of gaining intelligence?"

any information gathered using coercion techniques is suspect. any investigator knows there are other ways. if you tell someone that if they don't congfess, they'll never be released, they'll think of something to confess to. and whatever they make up will send a lot of people on a wild goose chase.

torture is torture.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 11 May 04 - 03:03 AM

Two Bears:

What you said was

"Most of the attacks against the Iraqi civilians, and Iraqi police,
   and U.S, military; are caused by foreign fighters from Syria,
   Jordan, and assorted terrorists.

   "How should they be categorized?"

& I said "As human beings, and as innocent until proven guilty. "

That means they are not "foreign fighters from Syria, Jordan, and assorted terrorists" just because someone says so. Even if it's GWB that says so. It must be proved. And when it is proved they should not be treated as these men were. They should be treated as human beings.

I am talking morality and decency rather than law. I'm sure that anything Hitler wanted was legal in Nazi Germany, but a lot of it was wrong.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 May 04 - 12:41 AM

s6k is going to be so ticked that you grabbed that 100th post, Raptor. :-)

There are terrorist camps in the USA too, Two Bears, funded by your taxes...and their graduates are working all over the World every day to kill people, subvert democratically elected governments, and launch illegal invasions of small countries. Their graduates murdered people in Central America all through the 80's...thousands and thousands of people. Their graduates trained the Mujahedin Muslin fanatics in order to kill Russians and funded the Taliban until they didn't need the Taliban any longer. Their graduates worked hand in hand with Osama Bin Laden and were his good buddies. Their graduates assassinated Salvador Allende in Chile and more recently arranged a coup against Chavez in Venezuela. They armed Saddam to kill Iranians. They betrayed the Shiites after the Gulf War in '91, and left them to be slaughtered by Saddam. They tried on numerous occasions to assassinate Castro, but those attempts all failed. They managed death squads in El Salvador and fought the dirty war in Nicarauga and trained the Contras. They also trained people in the goon tactics that have more recently been used on Iraqi prisoners, and prisoners in Guantanamo.

They are terrorists, funded and trained by America. Some of the people they are fighting against are also terrorists. I do not approve of terrorists regardless of which side of the issue they happen to stand on. As an American, I think you should be more concerned about the fact that your government is FUNDING terrorism on an ongoing basis and has been doing so for decades.

Accordingly, the War on Terrorism is as big a phony joke as the War on Drugs. The Right Hand of America strikes out at terrorism while the Left Hand funds it. (I don't mean Right and Left in the usual political sense when I say that...) It's gross hypocrisy, and sheer pragmatism at its unholy worst.

Bush may believe he's fighting terrorism, but his government is also committing terrorism at the same time. I'm not really surprised that he can't see it. After all, Osama and his people think of themselves as freedom fighters, so why wouldn't Bush think the same way? It's a common delusion of terrorists to imagine themselves as freedom fighters....just depends whose freedom to do what, that's all.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Raptor
Date: 10 May 04 - 11:39 PM

If it was the precious Private Jessica Lynch that was photographed Nakid all the USA would want to go in with Bombs and kill the torturing Bastards but since the tables are turned they were just playing a prank?
Whatever!

Raptor

PS 100th post HA!

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Raptor
Date: 10 May 04 - 11:35 PM

Jim and Gareth you two stop arguing and agree to ignore each other!

Two bears : They should never have invaded Iraq in the first place. They are a hostile occupying force on land that does not belong to them, and can certainly expect further resistance...until they leave.

   We will NEVER agree on that.

I think you need to know your Hero, George Bush, Invaded for one reason, OIL! and nothing else, There were no WMD's or links to terror. And as for him wanting to stop Saddam He couldn't give a flying Fuck for the Iraqi people! They hate him and unfortunatly all Americans because of his Forign policys! Bad foregn policies is why those people flew those planes into those buildings!

If you think they did the right thing why are all those American Soldiers dieing?

George Bush hasn't attended a single soldiers Funeral because he doesn't want to be Photographed with a coffin before the election!

You need a new hero!
May I sugest Little Hawk? As far as I know he is not a mad power hungry lunitic that doesn't care who dies!

Raptor

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 May 04 - 08:20 PM

Ya know. It's just so hard to feel sorry for the enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 10 May 04 - 07:17 PM

Salman Pak was in the Southern No Fly Zone, and could have been taken out at any time, over a number of years

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:48 PM

"...there was an Al Qaeda terrorist base..."

Ansar al-Islam was a group with Al Queda links, based in a part of North East Iraq in between the Kurdish autonomous area and the Iranian border. This area had been completely outside the conmtrol of the regime in Baghdad for many years. And Ansar al-Islam was very hostile to Saddam (and vice versa).

Saddam's regime was a very nasty one. But not to be confused with Al Qaeda, or with those who had attacked the USA at any time. (Though efforts were made by the US government to confuse them at part of the run-up to the war.)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:34 PM

And I'll be there shitting all over you, boyo

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:23 PM

Don't worry Jim Lad I'll be there wiping your bottom and pointing out your errors.

You stick to your truths, and i will stick to the real truths.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 10 May 04 - 06:05 PM

Two Bears is a great guy, and a good friend of mine, but he's a bit

   Thanks for the kind words LH; my brother

addled when it comes to politics...in my opinion. :-) This is the

   Opinions vary.

People's views about reality generally get set very early in life, so if one grows up in a circumstance where "conservatives" are seen as good guys and "liberals" are seen as bad guys...well, one just keeps on seeing it that way.

   Not quite LH.

The coalition doesn't have enough soldiers on the ground to properly police Iraq, its soldiers are inadequately trained and lack

   I will agree completely. They also need real soldiers instead of
   the weekend warrior (national guard) that were trying to run that
   prison.

experience, and they have been pre-conditioned by several years of propaganda to hate Muslims. The fact that they then arrest the wrong

   That is not so. In Bosnia; the U.S army were protecting the
   muslims from the Serbs.

They should never have invaded Iraq in the first place. They are a hostile occupying force on land that does not belong to them, and can certainly expect further resistance...until they leave.

   We will NEVER agree on that.

   There were several terrorist training vases in Iraq. There were
   several Palestinian terrorist training bases, and hundreds of
   suicide belts found. In Salman Paq; there was an Al Qaeda
   terrorist base. and they even had a Boeing 727 fuselage to train
   hijackers.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 10 May 04 - 05:56 PM

"Maybe they were foreign fighters coming in from Syria, Iran, and Jordan.

Not the thieves and the 'common criminals'
They're just Iraqis, Two_bears.
You can't put everyone under the category 'enemy combatants'

You would complain if they did it to you.
Why can you not complain when they do it to the least of your bretheren?

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 10 May 04 - 05:47 PM

If they are not POWS, they are civilians and are innocent until proven guilty.
-----

   Maybe they were foreign fighters coming in from Syria, Iran, and
   Jordan.

-----
Two Bears doesn't seem to understand that subjecting human beings to degradation is unnaceptable to civilized people.
-----

   I do understand it, and I said it was shameful the way they were
   treated.

----
Two Bears commented: "Lots of children was abused. I sure was."
I think that Two Bears needs to realize that that this is not normal.
I'm sorry it happened to you Two Bears. It wasn't your fault. You need to get some help.
-----

   I know the abuse I received was not my fault.
   I do not need help.

   I understand that some of these schools run by some of the
   mosques, and turn normal healthy children into cold blooded
   killers, and instructed to blow themself up to kill the infidels.

Two Bears

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Jim McCallan
Date: 10 May 04 - 05:40 PM

Example:
"I appreciate that you state that "I BELIEVE IN JUSTICE FOR ALL!"
One sentence later you say:
"Perhaps you could grant that to other people."

I give up, Gareth....

I will only reply to you on a 'need to' basis from now on...

That's for the notebook, too....

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Two_bears
Date: 10 May 04 - 05:37 PM

As human beings, and as innocent until proven guilty.
----

But that was not the answer to the question asked.

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Gareth
Date: 10 May 04 - 04:46 PM

Quite a tirade from Jim - One point I think I should make that "(although I did have one quite sinister PM from him, after I made that post)" and as I made it I think it is in order to quote directly "No chum, over yer head !" No what is sinister about that ?? Perhaps you could tell us all. If you took that as a threat then I appologise. I don't make threats.

I question your statement "Your facts are often wrong; you misquote people, and it is tedium to have to go back and keep on correcting you." Please elucidate !

My facts tend to be accurate - Even if unpopular in some quarters. What you are overlooking is that I tend to raise matters which some consensuses would prefer I do not.

I appreciate that you state that "I BELIEVE IN JUSTICE FOR ALL!" Perhaps you could grant that to other people.

BTW - My views on Iraq are simple. I believe that on balence the decicion to intervene was correct. I am concerned that there appears to be a lack of a coherent exit statedgy - No plan B !

I am very concerned that there appears to be a brakdown of disipline amoungst elements, and I will put it no greater or lesser than that, in the Armed Forces giving rise to acusations of torture.

I do not take the view, expressed in some quarters, of a Knee Jerk reaction that everything The US of A / Uk does is automatically bad.

Perhaps you should put that in your notebook.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 04 - 04:17 PM

Absolutely, McGrath. I used to picture Clinton Hammond as a raving lunatic with a military crewcut, who opened cans of Budweiser with his teeth while gnawing on bones and raw, bloody meat from half-dead animals. I was agreeably surprised to find out that he is actually worse than that in real life... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: It is TORTURE not 'abuse'!!!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 10 May 04 - 03:53 PM

Not a PM? I misread the post. I'm glad about that. Gareth can be a pugnacious villain at times, but generally a fair one.

I think we sometimes build up a mental picture of people we tangle with on these threads which doesn't really match reality. And sometimes people play up to misunderstandigs like that, in a way that reinforces the misunderstanding.