BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: DonMeixner
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:46 PM

Johnny,

Thats a bit of an argue point too I guess. My schepticism lamp gets lit pretty easily these days. I trust what most factions say to have a glimmer of fact in them. About the only people I distrust out of hand is Bin Laden and his cronies and International Answer and their cronies. And even if there is a glimmer there, They, the universal they, subvert it to meet their own plan.

I don't know who to trust to tell the truth so I guess I trust no one.


Don

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:46 PM

Blue clicky for dianavan's link.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:47 PM

Beheading someone with a butcher's knife. Alas. I suppose all of those men had mothers, all have consciences, and somewhere they're going to have to face what they've done. Dear God, what a thing to have to face in the dark of the night.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 15 May 04 - 05:55 PM

Don - I am not attesting to the accuracy of any newspaper article. What I am saying is that it is not far-fetched to question the details of the murder of Berg. I linked the article because it neatly outlined my suspicions regarding the timing of this event. I also think it is important to understand the moderate Iraqi perspective.

If we believe the U.S. version of the story, the murderer was a Jordanian not an Iraqi. I was disagreeing with the title of the post. Nobody has claimed that the murderer was Iraqi.

As far as the detention of Berg, previous to his murder, it is Berg's father who has the proof that the U.S. did, in fact, detain him. The U.S. tried to lie about that saying it was the Iraqi police who detained him. In the end, the U.S. admitted that they had detained him for questioning. They only released him when the father threatened to sue for unlawful confinement. I'm not sure, but I think he will still sue the U.S. government, including Rumsfeld. At least thats the last I heard.

At this point, I am more willing to follow the accounts of a father's quest for justice, more than anything the media wants us to believe.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 May 04 - 02:05 AM

Dianavan, the question of the thread title was dealt with right back in post no. 5!

We're fed so much bullshit by all sides in this crock of crap I don't understand how you're able to make such positive judgments about who's lying and who isn't. You're right that the media tell whichever fairytale suits their owners/sponsors political persuasions, but why are you so certain that the family are telling it 100% the way it is? Won't they stand to benefit hugely financially if they can prove that US Goverment forces effectively sent the lad to a horrific death, rather than that he was an unfortunate fool who put himself in harm's way?

NB - not saying the family are lying, or that Berg was a fool, I don't have enough (accurate) information to make a judgment. What I am saying is that this was a tragic and unforgivable event in a long catalogue of tragic and unforgivable events, that we're being subjected to propaganda from many many sources, and that truth has become indistinguishable from lie. Those of us who claim, very publically, to have a hotline to the truth may eventually find they too have been right royally hoodwinked.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 16 May 04 - 08:13 AM

At least one news article referred to the killers as "Iraqi militants." I believe I linked to it earlier. Granted, that has come to be inaccurate since more news has come out.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:55 AM

Strollin'Johnny - No, I am not certain that the family is telling the truth. I am saying that with all the misinformation out there, I am following very closely, the actions of the family. It is the family who is most closely involved. I also believe that most parents would want justice if a child was murdered. They are the ones that have to 'come to terms' with the death of their son.

Of course, they might be lying too, but I think that suggesting they might profit from their son's death is insensitive, to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: S O P
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:56 AM

di-van:

Asserting Berg's father has proof of anything is a use of the word 'proof' I'm not familiar with.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: robomatic
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:05 AM

You know, still relatively soon after the event, it's foolish to jump in with confident statements such as implying that Berg was a profiteer, even saying he was stupid. I however am ready to believe he was an innocent guy in the wrong place. Is there proof of that? I don't know. In the incredibly mixed up world that is Iraq at present, the perpetrators could be a splinter group with a room, a videocamera, and access to an uplink. I believe several hard core Islamic fundy organizations went to the trouble of disavowing responsibility.

I think most people come out of this thing with the same views they had going in, only more strident and less prone to compromise.

It does not relate to the prisoner issue, which is entirely separate.

The horror of it all is more than a really nasty beheading video. It's the situation wherein an innocent person is treated as a 'thing' to make suffer, and offered up as a video sacrifice, which makes us feel as we watch it horrified, sad, and somewhat guilty and defiled.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:09 AM

Interesting link to an Arab site. In my eyes, it demonstrates once more what this five months old thread was about:

A very Arab obsession

Paranoia and wild imaginings can be comforting when faced with overwhelming state power and pure brute force....The question that must challenge the Arab world today is how to check this dangerous slide into paranoia and self-defeating religious bigotry.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:10 AM

SOP - Read this:

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/05/15/iraq/main617643.shtml

Sorry about the clumsy link.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 16 May 04 - 08:59 PM

Dianavan, why insensitive? Read it again. Did I say 'profit', or was the word I used 'benefit'?. They're not the same thing, 'profit' intimates an element of 'enrichment', whereas 'benefit' implies simply 'compensation', and I chose my words very carefully in order to try to avoid unjustified accusations of the kind you've made.

And did I not say, in the very next sentence, that I'm not casting aspersions on Berg's family's honesty? I merely stated the fact (a real fact, not a piece of propaganda I've been fed that suits my personal agenda and which I then regurgitate as 'fact') that, in a highly litigious society like the USA with it's well-developed compensation-culture, it's not unreasonable to assume that the family will seek a suitable level of compensation for the loss of their son?

I've been at pains, in this thread, to express my genuine sadness at the death, not only of this young man, but every other death that's resulted from these adventures that the US and the UK have embarked upon, and I've also expressed my heartfelt sympathy for his family and friends.

So, am I a realist? I'll hold my hand up to that, no sweat. Sympathetic? Yep, that too. Insensitive? I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 16 May 04 - 09:43 PM

Strollin Johnny - Thanks for the clarification.

I, feel bewildered by the number of stories floating around out there. I, do, however stand by the facts stated above. At this time, all stories seem to agree on those three facts. Maybe someone can blue clicky something to change my mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 16 May 04 - 10:18 PM

You know, dianavam I don't give a shit if Nick Berg's killer was a Jordanian or an Iraqui.

Either way, he was a Jew hating Arab.

Right Lupis Rex? What was that sound?? Oh, it was your head popping out of your ass. Smear you? Hardly.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 16 May 04 - 11:48 PM

I guess that makes you an Arab hating Jew. Am I surprized?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:57 AM

So Mr. Powell just got back from Jordon where he apparanty criticized Arab leaders for not "showing outrage" at the killing of Berg. Can you imagine the gall it must take to do that? Was he not 600 times more upset that they did not show outrage for the deaths of Nigerian Christians?

Martin Gibson, you may not be a NAZI but you sure are a hate monger and a bigot. Oh and for bringing your dead relatives into the arguement. What shall we call you? How about classless neocon?

I understand where DougR is coming from, In WWII the Japanese and Germans were called subhuman. Certainly in my lifetime the Communists were labeled godless savages and worse. Doug watches Mr. Murdoch's Propaganda channel does he not?

But I was saddened see Doug bring our dear departed into this messy and unkind debate. I hope he decides to think twice before ever doing that again.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 17 May 04 - 01:30 AM

I think Martin is a Jewish Nazi.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 17 May 04 - 01:36 AM

He's a credit to his people

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 May 04 - 08:48 AM

No problem Dianavan, nice response and I'm glad we're friends again!
Johnny :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 May 04 - 10:10 AM

Interesting link to an Arab site. Which was that Wolfgang? If you mean the link to the non-Arab "Tehran Times", so far as I can see the article is taken from an American source.

The business of Nick Berg being pulled in by the American authorities, then released and subsequently being picked up by the people who killed him - it has overtones of the kind of incident that happened in the Civil Rights struggle in the Deep South. The idea that there might at times be some kind of working collaboration between American agents and a freelance terrorist group is not something that can be ruled out. Odd alliances can occur - remember how, during the Iran-Iraq war, while the US was in most ways effectively backing Saddam's Iraq, there was Ollie North, off on the side arranging to supply Iran with weaponry in order to finance terrorists in Nicaragua.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 17 May 04 - 10:54 AM

Trust no-one, believe no-one, for that way lies madness.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Wolfgang
Date: 17 May 04 - 12:41 PM

Yes, McGrath, the Tehran Times site which remains a Tehran site even when reprinting an article from somewhere else.

However, thanks for directing my attention to my post so I can correct a different mistake: 'Arab' was the wrong word for a site from Iran. Persian or, even better, Iranian is what I should have posted.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Kim C no cookie
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:42 AM

COOL IT PLEASE with the Nazi stuff. It is rude and uncalled for. Surely you are all intelligent enough to be able to think of better words than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 18 May 04 - 08:53 PM

Calling someone a name is definitely rude but... uncalled for? It is pale compared to the names Martin has called me and others. I rarely call people names but, in Martin's case, he deserves it. Besides that, I actually enjoy pushing Martin's buttons so that he can respond and show his true colours. There is nothing worse, in my opinion, than a Jew who treats others with the same kind of disdain that Hitler showed for Jews.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 18 May 04 - 09:27 PM

I already said, anyone who feels it necessary to engage in name-calling is welcome to do so on some other thread. It makes for negative energy and isn't good for the discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,guest from NW
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:45 AM

"Apparently no one has any definite evidence as to the actual nationality of the executioners."

exactly. no one has any verification that the video is not a fake either. there are plenty of speculations on that citing evidence in the video itself. and the details behind the last few weeks of nick berg's life seem very hard to discover or verify either. so why does everyone have such strong opinions about something that is completely unverifiable and the stories behind it confused and at odds?
because it is a brilliant piece of propaganda that allows the consumer of such to pour out his/her predjudices and hatred with chilling self-righteousness. enough to justify the killing of innocents. we live in a dark time.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 04 - 01:56 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 19 May 04 - 09:46 AM

Guest from NW, to the best of my knowledge, it has been verified that Nicholas Berg was indeed beheaded. Who actually did it, and for what reason, may still be in question, but very recent reports seem to indicate that investigators are fairly certain it was al-Zarqawi.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 19 May 04 - 10:57 AM

Kim C. - Once again, it depends on what you read. I read that al-Zarqawi was killed by a bomb a few months ago. Four men have been arrested for the beheading but al-Zarqawi was not one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:09 PM

This from the USAToday website, from a story posted last Friday:

"Much of the world reacted in horror to Berg's death and the grisly video that recorded it. U.S. intelligence officials have concluded that terrorist leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who has a $10 million price on his head by the U.S. government, was the person shown decapitating Berg."

This from Japan Today, regarding the arrests:

"It was understood that none of the four included al-Qaida linked Jordanian extremist Abu Mussab al-Zarqawi, who U.S. authorities believe carried out the killing of the 26-year-old along with other atrocities in Iraq.

However, Brig Gen Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations, said: "We have no information from the coalition that any arrests were made today." (Wire reports)"

This from the DoD website, from a transcript of a press conference today:

"Q    Stephanie Halasz, CNN. One question regarding Nicholas Berg. We're hearing that there are reports that four arrests were made regarding the killing of Berg. Can you tell us anything about that?



            GEN. KIMMITT: We have no information on the coalition that any arrests were made today."


I haven't found any reference to al-Zarqawi being killed.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:20 PM

Here's an Associated Press news item dated March 4th. Iraq militants claim al-Zarqawi is dead Whether it's accurate, who knows? Who knows whether the other stuff about him is accurate either?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:42 PM

Now I'm doubly curious. The AP story McGrath links to questions the validity of the claim; and no recent news stories have mentioned that the prime suspect in the Berg murder was supposed to be dead already.

What's up with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 19 May 04 - 12:54 PM

Propaganda, smokescreens, bullshit, evasions, exaggerations, half-truths and bare-faced lies. That's what we're served up with daily by all parties to this unholy mess. How can anyone claim to know what's going on? We can surmise, suspect, deduce, guess, but we can't possibly know. So will you all stop pretending you have the answers please? It's just whatever piece of propaganda you've accepted because it suits your politics. You're driving me nuts.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 19 May 04 - 02:42 PM

Perhaps if we put all the bullshit into one big pile, we might be able to find enough usable bullshit to suss out a fairly accurate assessment of the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:02 PM

dianavan i am not a Jewish Nazi. You are so fucking ignorant. There is no such thing. And I enjoy pushing your buttons even more. Comparing me to Hitler is so childish that it it is beyond comprehension. You are obviously so stupid and ignorant about the holocaust and I believe life in general.

Your disdain for all things American emulates like the box rot that permeates the air from from your crotch.

I may call you names that you so deserve, but your obsession with Nazis shows YOUR true colors.

No I don't hate all Arabs. I just detest the ones who hate Jews.

Jack the Sailor, don't bump you fat head on the ceiling of your trailor. go brush your tooth, you moron. And I'll bring my relatives who suffered in the concentration camps in to my arguement and honor their memory anytime I please.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Don Firth
Date: 19 May 04 - 05:57 PM

Isn't he sweet?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:00 PM

emulates? Nah, emanates maybe.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST
Date: 19 May 04 - 06:02 PM

Wait, maybe the box rot smell is trying to smell like something else! So, let's stick with emulates.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 19 May 04 - 11:01 PM

Kim C. - I am sorry if I offended your sensibilities. I do think you started this thread as a serious inquiry. I applaud anyone who chooses to open a discussion to gain insight into an issue. Like you say, lets put all of the speculation into a pot and stir it up. Maybe we will someday find a little bit of truth. It is doubtful if we will ever know the whole truth.

Although I have never met any of the Mudcatters, after awhile, it becomes quite evident who is being honest (at least from their heart) and who is spewing hatred. Anything a 'hate monger' has to say is not worth listening to.

Although I have been accused of hating Americans, it is not true. I do, however, question how the land of my birth has evolved. It saddens me because I know the American people are generally not mean spirited and ignorant. When I criticize, I am speaking in general terms and those terms can usually be extended to the country of my residence because I know that the U.S.A. is a role model for the world. It is a privilege to be an American citizen but that privilege carries with it a very big responsibility. Part of that responsibility is to question and criticize the government. When citizens stop doing that and accept the word of the government with 'blind faith', the ideals of democracy are dead.

I love the rebel that is America. I despise the cowardice of the status quo and when the 'establishment' is content to sit in the lap of luxury and ignore the plight of the oppressed, I weep.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 04 - 11:13 PM

Well gol danged, Martin! Yeah, you might have some folks you suffered at the hands on the Nazis, but your response to Jack the Sailor was nothing short of "brown-shirt-ism". You might want to revist Germany in the 30's before making your comparisions 'cause, in your attempts to paint others, you have done nothin' more than paint yourself...

Don't like hearin' it? Then stop. Ain't no rocket surgery... Think about it...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 May 04 - 12:02 PM

Martin Gibson, you seem to think that you can make up for your inability to carry on with intellectual depth by using foul words and covering your weaknesses by using the Holocaust as cover. Pretty despicable. I accept that the Holocaust, arguably, was the single greatest atrocity ever committed in the history of mankind. Even if one doesn't accept that, it is hard to not include it in the top two or three. Done, I agree. But using it as an excuse to not discuss the current problems with the Israelis and Palestinians is just begging for the current problem to continue. I support the rights of the Israelis to have their homeland. I support the same right for the Palestinians. It is fair, when looking at the tactics being used by Israel, to draw parallels to other times. It is also fair to point out that the use of children as suicide bombers is a terrible tactic. I don't know how this seems to you, but the people of Israel, like the folks in the North of Ireland, seem to be speaking very loudly. And they want attitudes like yours to disappear. Using the Holocaust to justify horrific actions seems like the ultimate sin to me.

dianavan, I appreciate many of your posts. But I do agree that you seem to take every opportunity to criticize the US, and never hold your adopted homeland, or any other country, to the same standard.   The examples abound.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 May 04 - 12:25 PM

Mick:

Agreed- Thank you for the post.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 May 04 - 01:00 PM


The notion that a radical is one who hates his country is naive and usually idiotic. He is, more likely, one who likes his country more than the rest of us, and is thus more disturbed than the rest of us when he sees it debauched. He is not a bad citizen turning to crime; he is a good citizen driven to despair.
         -H. L. Mencken

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Kim C
Date: 20 May 04 - 02:13 PM

Dianavan, I ain't offended. I like it much better when people can be pleasant to one another but from a practical standpoint, I know that can't happen all the time.

Martin, please be sweet. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:33 PM

Thank-you Greg F. - thats exactly the point.

As to not criticizing Canada. I would and I do but not as vehemently as I do the U.S. The political system here is quite different and I'm still learning the ins and outs. Besides, like I said before, the U.S. is the standard bearer for the world. If the U.S. doesn't change, It is very difficult for others to initiate change. The economic pressures are enormous.

Besides that, there are not enough Canadians in the 'catbox' to argue with. It seems that most of the time we are in agreement.

Don't forget, I always make the distinction between the U.S. and America. As a Canadian, I am a part of America. I am not, however, living in the U.S. When I say America, I'm talking about Canadians, too.

Mick - Please give me an example of not holding Canada to the same standards. In fact, I do.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:44 PM

When you are the world superpower, and the strongest and wealthiest enterprise on the planet, it is inevitable that people focus their attention on what you get up to, because it really does make a big difference.

The reason people talk about bulls in china shops, and not about squirrels in china shops, is because a china shop with a bull in it is a very different place from a china shop with a squirrel in it. Even when the squirrel is a very badly behaved squirrel and the bull is a relatively well-behaved bull, the bull is likely to do a great deal more damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: CarolC
Date: 20 May 04 - 09:54 PM

You don't know squirrels like I know squirrels, McGrath. I'd go for more of a "hamster in a china shop" as compared to a "stegosaurus in a china shop" analogy.

;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: Big Mick
Date: 20 May 04 - 10:02 PM

dianavan, perhaps I am being unfair, as this is simply a perceptual observation. You are a very interesting poster to me. I find your arguments to be well thought out, I really like your intensity, and find myself in agreement with a great deal of what you say. But it seems to me, and I admit that it is simply my perception, that you are much harder on the US than anyone else. At the moment the only example I can think of is when you were castigating the US for its environmental abuses and use of resources. I recall (and I might be combining several posts here as I am responding quickly and from memory)that I indicated that Canadian large cities had as much traffic as any cities I had ever been in. I also indicated that it seemed odd to me that environmental criticism from someone who can't seem to find a way to dispose of its own trash lacked credibility. I was implying that there is hypocrisy in not wanting to despoil your own wilderness, so instead you ship it to the US. As I recall, there was not much response, nothing like your comments about the US.

Having said all that, let me say this. You are one of the most enjoyable of the newer Mudcatters. While I may take issue with some of your posts, I must tell you that I hope to meet you one day and share a song or two. I enjoy the zeal with which you make your arguments, and I know that when I engage in a debate with you, I better be prepared to defend my positions.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 04 - 11:20 PM

Thanks, Mick

I want to say that any country that thinks they have the right to ship their garbage to another country is wrong. I'm not sure but I think this is not Canadian policy but rather a provincial matter, maybe even civic. I remember reading something about it but it seemed a long ways away - like Toronto or something.

Living in Vancouver, I have much more in common with people from the Northwest U.S. (where I was born) and California than I do with anyone from Ontario or farther east. Living in Vancouver, I probably have more in common with Chinese-Canadians. In fact, I know very little about the country of Canada - never been outside the province of B.C. Seems my travels have only been on the Pacific side of the continent. I seem to hop from here to New York and then across the Atlantic. Haven't seen much in between.

I am hard on the U.S. I know, but you should understand that its an easy thing to criticize when it is always in your face. I am hard on the U.S. because it is the hope of the world and it is behaving very badly. I hold Canada, however, to even higher standards because we, I believe, are the caretakers of a vital part of the world ecology. I also hope that Canada can continue their role as peacekeepers in a world where there is so little trust.

I was very proud when Chretien stood up to Bush. Considering we live right next door, it was a brave and honorable thing to do. I hope our new Prime Minister, Martin, can be as tough. Unfortunately, I think he is probably another corrupt, fat cat. We will see how far he can push the Kyota accord and how he handles such issues as global warming and sustainable living. He has said that our economy depends on a healthy environment - we will see if he can put his money where his mouth is. From what I hear, his money is mostly off-shore.

People from the U.S. know so little about Canada, its history and its politics, that its futile to discuss it. Canadians, however, know alot about whats happening in the U.S. If we want to discuss world events, we must talk about the U.S. because that is what most people from the U.S. understand. Would you like to discuss the NDP's or the Liberals or the Progressive Conservatives? See what I mean?

There's a joke on the coast about Torontonians. They think that Canada is what they can see from the top of the CN tower. I think that in large part, that goes for the majority of Americans. We only know what we can see from within the confines of our own reality. And yes, America, for all of its beauty, is becoming fat and ugly with age. Look at what slightly over 100 years have done to this continent, and indeed the world. I do think its time we started behaving like responsible world citizens.

Thanks again for your kind words. I am not an intellectual by any stretch of the imagination. I am largely self educated (I started university in my 40's) and aside from mudcat, I hardly ever discuss politics with my friends or family. For me, this is part of my education which I believe to be a lifelong experience. When I stop learning, I will be in the act of dying.

Just for the record, I'm not much of a Nationalist. I call myself an American hybrid.

Subject: RE: BS: Iraqis Beheading Americans
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 21 May 04 - 12:50 AM

GregF

Thanks for the Mencken quote. I've tried to explain that idea to people but never had the right words.

I think I'll have it tattooed on me somewhere handy.

clint