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BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?

Bob Pacquin 21 May 04 - 11:36 AM
el ted 21 May 04 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,MMario 21 May 04 - 11:56 AM
el ted 21 May 04 - 11:57 AM
Pied Piper 21 May 04 - 11:58 AM
jimmyt 21 May 04 - 11:59 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 21 May 04 - 12:08 PM
Amos 21 May 04 - 12:18 PM
Blackcatter 21 May 04 - 12:22 PM
MarkS 21 May 04 - 12:33 PM
Cuilionn 21 May 04 - 12:51 PM
GUEST 21 May 04 - 01:18 PM
GUEST 21 May 04 - 03:32 PM
Bob Pacquin 21 May 04 - 03:33 PM
PeteBoom 21 May 04 - 04:53 PM
Jeri 21 May 04 - 05:05 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 21 May 04 - 05:26 PM
Blackcatter 21 May 04 - 05:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 21 May 04 - 07:00 PM
Richard Bridge 21 May 04 - 07:02 PM
Rapparee 21 May 04 - 07:14 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 21 May 04 - 07:23 PM
MarkS 21 May 04 - 08:43 PM
Rapparee 21 May 04 - 09:50 PM
open mike 22 May 04 - 02:02 AM
GUEST,John O'Lennaine 22 May 04 - 09:12 AM
Rapparee 22 May 04 - 11:39 AM
jimmyt 22 May 04 - 12:34 PM
GUEST,sorefingers 22 May 04 - 12:41 PM
Blackcatter 22 May 04 - 01:04 PM
akenaton 22 May 04 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,nansaidh 22 May 04 - 02:55 PM
GUEST,guest 22 May 04 - 02:56 PM
akenaton 22 May 04 - 05:08 PM
Gareth 22 May 04 - 07:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 May 04 - 07:38 PM
Pogo 22 May 04 - 07:56 PM
Blackcatter 22 May 04 - 08:02 PM
GUEST,Ooh-Aah 23 May 04 - 05:56 AM
Willie-O 23 May 04 - 10:40 AM
Rapparee 23 May 04 - 11:00 AM
MarkS 23 May 04 - 03:11 PM
Wolfgang 24 May 04 - 07:23 AM
GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser) 24 May 04 - 10:14 AM
Raedwulf 24 May 04 - 12:25 PM
Gareth 24 May 04 - 07:58 PM
GUEST,eliza c 25 May 04 - 10:48 AM
Teribus 25 May 04 - 12:06 PM
Rapparee 25 May 04 - 01:06 PM
GUEST 26 May 04 - 11:58 AM
GUEST,Yorkshire lad 27 May 04 - 05:32 AM
GUEST,Lovechild 27 May 04 - 05:43 PM
robomatic 27 May 04 - 08:49 PM

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Subject: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Bob Pacquin
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:36 AM

There has been some talk about the racist implications of the "Celtic" revival movement--Old Bob thought that it was just abstract, speculative, "do you realize what the logical extension of what you are saying?" talk of the sort that doesn't really mean much of anything--then Old Bob stumbled across this message thread while he was trying to find an good recipe for white bread--Needless to say, it shook me to from my keppie to my tootsies--

Specially disturbing was that Old Bob has been to this event a few times,and raised a few with goatskin squeezing, kilt-wearing friends--and never suspected a thing--Are these folks really out there?

Stormfront White Nationalist Community
        
>Celtic Fest in PA--- Reminder

>This is a reminder that the Celtic Classics in Bethlehem, PA are this >WEEKEND! I will be in attendance on sunday. I urge anyone around the >area to come!

>http://www.celticfest.org

>Many white racialists and nationalists and whites of every other name that we might call ourselves will be there. This is a great oppty. to meet like minded people, not to mention people we have been chating with, but have no face to go with the names..

>Any one up to it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: el ted
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:45 AM

Errrr who is "old Bob"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:56 AM

I suspect he was referring to himself in the third person.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: el ted
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:57 AM

Ah ha! thanks for that, it makes sense now.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:58 AM

I don't know about now but sien fien organised a pogram against some Jews in the 1930's


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: jimmyt
Date: 21 May 04 - 11:59 AM

I have no idea if this has any basis or not, but it should be a fascinating thread to watch. Supposedly the fiery cross idea was to signify the gathering of the clans originally and was borrowed by the Klan as a symbol of something far different.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 21 May 04 - 12:08 PM

Bob, where has there "been some talk about the racist implications of the "Celtic" revival movement"???    I have not heard this charge before and I would like to know where you are hearing that. It is alarming.    I have not seen evidence of this.

Based on the "message thread" that you discovered, it sounds as if someone had the idea of trying to mingle with crowd at this event. Moonies at airports does not mean that air travelers follow their mantra.

It is alarming that white supremicists exist at all, but I would not say that celtic music is a breeding ground for their type.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 04 - 12:18 PM

Really strikes me as far fetched, absent evidence.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 21 May 04 - 12:22 PM

I haven't heard anything about it either, and I practice a form of Celtic Witchcraft and perform trad Irish songs so you'd think I might have heard something . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: MarkS
Date: 21 May 04 - 12:33 PM

This is really a stretch. You are talking about reviving the customs and traditions of people who probably did not even know there were people of other races.
This was probably seen as an opportunity for the race hustlers who make a living out of being professionally indignant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Cuilionn
Date: 21 May 04 - 12:51 PM

Aye, the celebration o culture & ancestry is a tangled web indeed...

I was reminded of this in a seminary class, when our Native American professor was going down the long list of evils perpetrated by "God-fearing" Europeans & European-Americans against the many indigenous groups they encountered. When I tried to point out that various Celtic peoples had suffered similar forms of cultural oppression and even attempted genocide, he became very uncomfortable.

Throughout that course, we engaged in a delicate dance, trying to find ways to discuss shared concerns and cultural survival issues in a way that did not trigger his concerns about "white power" and other, more subtle forms of European-American racism.

We never did find a comfortable middle ground--there was too much blood on the earth for that--but I would never consider those discussions worthless. They helped me understand the complex emotions, the political and socio-economic realities of such cultural issues. I believe we both recognized that there is much work to be done in both our respective communities if we are to achieve both communal/internal pride, knowledge & wisdom, and the ability to regard , with pride and respect, those cultures outside our own.

Celtic culture has always had elements of violence, bigotry and self-aggrandizement. I suspect this is true in all cultures, and it is easy enough for a fear-based group of disempowered, disconnected people to "invent" a heritage and world-view based on such principles. But we must remember--and teach others to remember--that these negative elements did not exist in isolation, and there were other values within the culture that mitigated or balanced them out. The Celtic value of hospitality, for example, demanded respect for strangers and considerate care for the wanderer, the downtrodden & the displaced. Do these so-called "Celtic" supremicist groups teach their members about the ancient codes of honorable & hospitable conduct, or do they just paint themselves blue and keep waving their claymores?

Those of us who claim European-American ancestry have a deep obligation to study our cultures of origin and trace both their destructive and constructive elements. We must live and work with an awareness of these elements, but we must do even more: we have an obligation to end their imbalance, lest they continue to seep and smolder and strike out, unanticipated and unchecked. Wendell Berry alludes to this in his essay, "A Native Hill", when he writes that, "the road-builders...were placeless people: Because they belonged to no place, it was almost inevitable that they should behave violently towards theplaces they came to." (The rest of the essay is worth reading; find it if you can.)

We may never "belong" to a place as deeply as those whose ancestors never immigrated/emigrated anyplace. But we can tap into our own sources of cultural wisdom to find that old (Celtic?) ideal of "the fitness of things", and seek our proper place. We can help others seek their roots, as well, and share the understanding that roots require relationships, and relationships require responsibility. Then we can relax a bit, settle in, get out our instruments, and enjoy making some "roots music" together!

--Cuilionn


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 04 - 01:18 PM

Considering that the only real written records of "Celtic" culture, outside of archeology,come to us care of the Roman Commentaters where does this deep knowledge of ancient customs etc. come from anyway, since most of the Roman material concentrates on how barbaric they are as opposed to civilised in the Roman manner. For most of it I only see educated guess work, or stuff thats just made up to fit the frame. I of course could wrong, references most welcome.

White supremicist Celts, sounds to me like somebody's yanking somebodies chain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 May 04 - 03:32 PM

uh the early monks did not have the same compunction against the written word that the druids did. they wrote many things down. that is how so many of the mythologies survived, such as the tain bo cualnge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Bob Pacquin
Date: 21 May 04 - 03:33 PM

Cuilionn,

Thanks for your ramble, it lends some depth, width and breadth here--

For those confused by Old Bob's fondness for the third person, Sorry. He likes to do it for fun, more than anything else--and figures that it is harmless enough--better than calling complete strangers nasty names, as some like to do, and Old Bob has had a shortage of fun in recent years, though that is another story--

For Ron Olesko, Old Bob will try to sum up the "Racist Elements in the Celtic Revival Rap" which he has heard at on occasion in academic circles(sometimes Old Bob runs in academic circles, sometimes just circles)--

The concept is that "Celtic Revival" is about the idea that there is something superior about Celtic people and Celtic things, and that you can't just decide to be Celtic, you have to be "Of Celtic Blood"--

--The simple point being that the idea that one group of people is superior to another based simply on their "Blood" is a racist idea.

Then all this Celtic Myth stuff gets wound out, along with the Celtic History based on educated guessing, like "Guest" above mentioned, which invariably gets called "Pseudo-History" and it gets compared to the Aryan Myth that the Nazis created--

Sooner or later everyone gets bored and they go out for a Guiness or some such thing, and everyone thinks, "Well, that's an interesting point" but no one takes it very seriously because they all figure that most everyone involved in the Celtic thing really is just doing it because it is fun and they like the music and dance and pipes and beer--

And Old Bob figures this too, partly because he likes to think the best of people, and partly because he used to live in a part of an unnamed Eas Coast City that was so Irish that even the Jews were Irish, and always felt welcome everywhere he went, and once even got a certificate making him an "Honorary Irishman"--

So Old Bob ran across this discussion thread, which doesn't seem fake at all, and got a little sick feeling--


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: PeteBoom
Date: 21 May 04 - 04:53 PM

Well Bob - its like this... Some folks have latched onto the "Celtic" thing as being safer than "Aryan" - after all, anyone with a modicum of Anthropology education will tell you that the Aryan myth was a total myth, but, the Celts, why They EXISTED - and they were WHITE! (Pinkish actually, but that's another story.) The result is they'll pop up here and there. I remember one year, not so long ago, some of these folks showed up at the Detroit St. Andrew Games... figuring it was "Celtic" and therefore "White". They got upset when they saw some of the folks in pipe bands in full kit who were not pinkish, and having had far too many beers, picked a fight.

Note: Don't pick a fight with someone in a pipe band because he's the wrong flavour of humanoid to fit your stereotype to play in a pipe band. You'll find yourself dealing with several score of people in OTHER pipebands who see him as "Jason (or whatever his name is) the drummer / piper in (fill in name of band here)" who is being abused because he's in a band. Eejit: "He's not one of us! He's not a CELTIC! LOOK at him!" Response: "Right - He's NOT a Celtic - He's a Ranger supporter but we don't hold it against him because he's a drummer in a band, that makes him one of US. If you want to fight him, you gotta fight all of us." They went away.

They did not come back the next year.

On a happier note - the Celtic Classic is a TREMENDOUS festival. I highly recommend it. Great music - great dancing - tremendous entertainment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Jeri
Date: 21 May 04 - 05:05 PM

I've gotten the impression over the years, and it's JUST an impression, that some white supremicist groups are try to ride on the coat-tails of the whole Celtic thing. Riverdance got really big and lots of people found their Celtic roots. Celts are white (except the ones who aren't, Celts are Christian (some are), Celts can hate and hold grudges (who can't?), Celts have some cool symbols, including crosses, they sometimes like to drink beer, and they sometimes have festivals where you can spread the word.

White supremicist groups are mostly opportunistic infections, and will only take over an organism if they grow large enough. Imagine if you had 3 or 4 of them move to your town and decide to march around in Klan attire at your local parade. They make it onto CNN, or hit the rumor mill, and folks all over start saying things like "Oh my! I didn't know Smithville was a Klan town!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 21 May 04 - 05:26 PM

Well, the guy which signs himself "Irish Jay" has gone to a lot of trouble with his fancy swastika, "Irish" written in pseudo-runes and "Jay" written in germanic runes. It looks professionally designed. So there is probably a White Supremicist Celtic movement even if it's just him and the other two guys who posted there.

Like Jeri says, just a few of those people pissing in the soup can make quite a disturbance.

I live in Coeur d'Alene; let me tell you about the Aryan Nations. Old Richard Butler himself is about the only one left now, but he's still doing what he can.

clint

-- I once ran across a Celtic Taosit site on the web --


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 21 May 04 - 05:28 PM

So their using the psuedo Aryan symbols with Celtic stuff? That's just silly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 May 04 - 07:00 PM

I think your facts there are probably as suspect as the way you spell Sinn Fein, Pied Piper.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 May 04 - 07:02 PM

This is an Irish joke, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 May 04 - 07:14 PM

Oh, Stormfront's been around for eight years or so. They've been playing the "Celtic = Aryan" card for most of that time. Stupid bunch, really; like their "Aryan" thing, their "Celtic" thing (usually pronounced wrong, too) is cheap veneer for their feelings of inadequacy.

Clint, I'm down here in Pocatello. We got some here, too, and in the year I've been here I've met 'em. Like the "Free Staters" and the rest, folks here ignore 'em until they cause too much trouble and then they deal with 'em.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 21 May 04 - 07:23 PM

"So their using the psuedo Aryan symbols with Celtic stuff? That's just silly. "

Damn straight it is. The whole Master Race/God is on our side/ we are God's chosen people idea is silly.

I talked with one who told me the real Jews are the Northern Europeans (who are thus the Chosen) and the people who call themselves Jews are imposters. He also said that North America rightfully belongs to the white race and the Indians are "usurpers" who got there first.

And the last bunch I saw downtown here had a Nazi flag, a Confederate flag and a 13-star US flag for some reason. They're silly, but they're mean.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: MarkS
Date: 21 May 04 - 08:43 PM

How about this:

Around 35ce, followers and family of Jesus migrated to what is now the south of France, founding the Merovingian dynasty. Thus modern decendents of the Merovingians claim title to all the crowns of Europe, including Jerusalem.

Hey - why not? As long as we are going for involved dynastic theory and who is really the rightful whatever, it just might work!

Up the decendents of Dagobert II !


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 May 04 - 09:50 PM

Right on! Long live Dogbert I!


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: open mike
Date: 22 May 04 - 02:02 AM

i have heard of a celtic faire being used as a front for hate-mongers.
and the participants were not even aware that they had been used this
way until the event was over! ugly...and here is some info..
if you look under storm front you will find more.
http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/groups_stormfront.asp
http://www.adl.org/hate_symbols/racist_celtic_cross.asp
and here is a scary page from theri web site...including KKK...yikes!
http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=131009
http://www.reed.edu/~gronkep/webofpolitics/fall2001/yagern/stormfront.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 22 May 04 - 09:12 AM

As I understand it there has been no known Celtic bloodlines since the Romans wiped them out around 70 BC.

The Gaels of the British Isles were and are, in places, culturally Celtic, but racially they are as mixed a bag as you'd be likely to find anywhere. They've got bits of just about everything in them from Norway to Gibraltar.

So if Stormfront are starting up a racial supremist movement based on the Gaels, the've picked a hard place to start. Rapaire says they've been around for eight years or so, and this is the first most of us have heard of them. Little wonder.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 May 04 - 11:39 AM

Eight years or so on the Web. I don't know if they existed before that, and I really don't care to investigate any more than I'd care to feel around inside a very old and very full outhouse vault.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: jimmyt
Date: 22 May 04 - 12:34 PM

Mark S , been reading Holy Blood, Holy Grail?


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 22 May 04 - 12:41 PM

They sound genuine, they offer seemingly innocent little bits of gossip that they know will be repeated. But, to begin they never let you know what you are being conned into.

It is called fascism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 May 04 - 01:04 PM

i have heard of a celtic faire being used as a front for hate-mongers. and the participants were not even aware that they had been used this way until the event was over!

Doesn't sound like it particularly successful.


All "races" in the world are quite mixed up in the concept of being "racially pure." The only communities that aren't are those that are on the extreme fringes of the world - such as the Sami (I think that's right - the Lapps) in Finland/Sweden/Norway.

The Irish, Scots and Welsh are identifiable as Celtic, but aren't all that "racialy pure." It is likely that the typical Irish person has Celtic, Germanic, Norse and possibly even Latin DNA.

This is why the concept of race is just stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 May 04 - 02:55 PM

Some years ago,I remember reading about the early Scottish settlers in and around Virginia.
Apparently they were involved in the trade and use of black slaves.
They were also said to be the most brutal slave owners in America,and were involved in the setting up of the KKK.
Im sorry not to be more informative, but I had forgotten about the article until reading this thread.
Maybe some link between this and Bobs' query....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: GUEST,nansaidh
Date: 22 May 04 - 02:55 PM

I did some research on this topic when I came back from a Burns Supper here in California. We were all having a great time, dancing and playing music, when I played an English tune. When someone asked me what tune it was I replied.... and it was all downhill from there.

What followed was nasty remarks and downright racism. I was extremely uncomfortable, expecially when I mentioned I was going on my first trip to England soon (my grandparents were born there) and one man turned to me and said "my people killed ALOT of your people!" The most interesting thing........most of these people had NEVER even been to Scotland or Ireland.

Anyway, I stopped going to any of the Celtic Organizations. I have to add, Im sure alot of folks that go to these are not racist and not even aware of the overt racism that is perpetuated, almost all against the English. I recognize the terrible wrongs done in the past, but to harbor, guard, and perpetuate hate just seems wrong to me.

Oh, and an interesting note. When one of the guys was talking about how the English took away their Scottish language, sent them away from their homelands etc I remarked how the same thing happened to the American Indians. Killed, sent to schools to be "civilized," banned from speaking their own language or worshipping their own religion by the european invasion it didn't even make a dent on him, he'd never even considered that point of view. Interesting.

PS
Im an American of Scots-Irish, English, Welsh, and Cherokee descent and I don't hate anyone.......except George Bush:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: GUEST,guest
Date: 22 May 04 - 02:56 PM

Read this

http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/feb1999/scot-f03.shtml


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: akenaton
Date: 22 May 04 - 05:08 PM

Very interesting guest,seems to echo some of the points in the article I was referring to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Gareth
Date: 22 May 04 - 07:07 PM

Interesting - Some weeks ago I spent an unpleasent hour or so digging thru various "Ultra right" websites trying to get some hint as to what the "Facists" were up to here in Old South Wales ( We had just had an outbreak of the classic Facist preparatory tactics before local elections ie Anon letters stating that your house was to be compulsary purchased for asylum seakers etc).

Google found "Stormfront" for me on a Welsh/Celtic cross reference.

It is well documented that various versions of early Nationalist Parties were proto facist. I can not speak for the Scots, but in Wales, Saunders Lewis, the founder of Plaid Cymru was well on record as being an admirer of Hitler and Franco.

I have before me a leaflet issued by the BNP supporting thier candidates for Wales playing very heavily on the Celtic conection, tho I feel from the flow of the leaflet this may have been inserted into an "English" aimed leaflet.

Other Facist leaflets which have come into my possesion (for Party reasons) and trawls through thier website indicates an attempt in North Wales to blame the influx of English speaking "immigrants" to North Wales on the "English being driven out of England by (insert the appropriate invective).

My best judgement is that this will not be productive, but it gives an indication of the trend.

I can not claim that this is a first class analysis, but I think it shows a trend.

Further information, particullaly in the Irish conection can be found at that excellent source of information on the "Ultra Right" Searchlight

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 May 04 - 07:38 PM

Fascists will try to use any kind of cloak, or anything that looks potentially populist. Sport, race, music, law 'n order, religion, grievances...


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Pogo
Date: 22 May 04 - 07:56 PM

I was watching a documentary on the history channel about the history and legacy of the KKK and towards the end I saw something that made me want to laugh and weep at the same time. They showed footage of a KKK rally and a Grand Dragon or Wizard or whatever the hades they call themselves was walking past rows of be-sheeted folk carrying a little baby (a baby!) dressed in the whole KKK getup, little tiny hood and everything and this man was telling these people " This is what you are fighting for! " and going on about a pure white baby and all that. Good Lord have mercy...the absurdity of seeing that child like that...*shakes head* that's plain scary...


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 22 May 04 - 08:02 PM

And that little "pure white" baby probably was 1/64 black and 1/64 American Indian and 1/64 Catholic and . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 23 May 04 - 05:56 AM

Nationalist groups are pro-fascist amazingly often, as someone said previously. One example is the extremist nationalist Indian leader Subhash Chandra Bose, who allied himself with the Japanese in WW 2 in the stunningly naive hope that they would help him against the British in India... and then march off with best wishes, presumably. He was a passionate admirer of Benito Musssolini, quite wierd when you remember that gentleman's own imperialist ambitions.

Fascism and rascism often conceals a hidden inferiority complex under apparent arrogance, and possibly a few people in the Celtic brigade have been infected by it. One thing is certain, and that is their sad experiences over the last few hundred years seem to have given some 'Celts' license to spout bulshit about 'Celtic blood' - for example innate musical ability - that would be considered rank racism from a more fortunate people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Willie-O
Date: 23 May 04 - 10:40 AM

Yup, start a social movement with broad appeal, and sooner or later some assholes will come along and try to use it...happens all the time.

Irritates the hell out of me, and we need to be upfront in our condemnations of any such trends or incidents popping up.

Celticfest looks like an impressive event though. 250,000 people over the weekend, lots of impressive performers and lots of community outreach programs. Not surprising that a few of the people who turn up would happen to be jerks looking to put their particular ugly spin on why such events are valuable.

The website mentions: "Since its inception The Celtic Classic Highland Games and Festival has celebrated the history and evolution of the Celtic culture. The Lehigh Valley of Pennsylvania is rich with the people whose families spring from the roots of the diverse cultures that comprise the Celtic Nations."

Yeah, whatever. In the context of this discussion you could find that a little disturbing, or you could note that the exact same promo (with a location name change) could be written about say, Celtic Colours in Cape Breton. People will make of it what they will.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 May 04 - 11:00 AM

Yessiree, boy, them Celts got themselves natural rhythm an' music in their souls. Shore do like to see them l'il Irish an' Welsh kids cloggin' and step dancin' while their parents fiddle and play them pipes an' harps. 'Most makes me wanna hug 'em, it does, ta see 'em like that. 'Course, I wouldn't touch the filthy little beggars myself. They're all covered in lice and stink, eatin' black puddings and potatoes and cabbage. Drunken cowardly layabouts, too, all of 'em. Feed 'em and you just encourage 'em to take the dole and you keep 'em happy doin' nothin'. Them that want to work (probably to make some money for more whiskey) take jobs from good hard workin' darkies. Now, 'course, them Celtic wimmen, they're hot. Woo-ee! But you don't want to fool around too much with 'em, 'cause you'll get poxed sure as life. But for a l'il ol' romp you can't beat one of them Scottish lassies or one of them Breton gals. But I shore do like to see them l'il kids dancin' and hoppin' around. Jist give 'em a little religion, some drink, a woman to get their brood on, a few potatoes, an' a fiddle and they're happy.

--Just so you know, I'm being sarcastic. And I've extended what I read about the Irish to all the Celts. But if the above was thought true about 175 years ago, why would it be less true about the racist "Celts" today?


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: MarkS
Date: 23 May 04 - 03:11 PM

jimmyt - yup - and its a fascinating read! Amazing what you can do with very little documentary evidence and a fertile mind.
Now mind you, I'm not saying the authors are wrong - (not saying they are right either) - but I do appreciate the gyrations and logical gymnastics which led them to their conclusions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:23 AM

Limerick Pogrom

A leading supporter of the pogrom was Arthur Griffith, who in 1900 had founded Cumann na nGaedheal, which in 1907 became Sinn Fein, the first and last of the
twentieth century's racist-nationalist-fascist movements. Griffith was a strong anti-Semite: he wrote in 1899 that Jews, Freemasons, and pirates were the "three evil
influences" of the nineteenth century and that Jews "detested soap and water."


That's the nearest both in content and date I could find to the claim that Sinn Fein organised a pogram against some Jews in the 1930's (Pied Piper)

In Germany, any back-to-the-old-Gods or Pagan or Up-the-Kelten movement would be very attractive for all neonazis.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: GUEST,Chris B (Born Again Scouser)
Date: 24 May 04 - 10:14 AM

Does anybody else remember the old Swastika laundry in Dublin? Probably not an overtly Nazi enterprise but their vans used to scare the bejasus out of me in the 60's.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Raedwulf
Date: 24 May 04 - 12:25 PM

Interesting thread. I think McGrath has (not for the first time) summed it up most succintly. Speaking as a Germanic pagan, I can tell you that, yes, the supremacists are involved there too, & their waffle is just as puerile as anywhere else. As someone said earlier, any pond they can piss in, they will; if they think it furthers their narrow-minded dogma.

Unfortunately, Germanic paganism (i.e. Woden/Odin/Wotan pantheon) is always an attractive option because of the association with Hitler & Nazism. I do think, though, that it is worth pointing out that fascism/Nazism never has anything to do with faith. It is always about control, manipulation, supremacy. The overt Left/Right bias of the extremist never matters. They always know better than you. Stalin was as much a supremacist as Hitler. It is only ever a question of which tools will lever you in their direction...

Horrible though the word sounds, I think that 'supremacist' is ultimately a much better label than fascist or any subset thereof.

Cuilionn's post I found most interesting, but there are questions that it immediately throws into my mind. various Celtic peoples had suffered similar forms of cultural oppression and even attempted genocide Who was perpetrating the genocide? Can you be sure that it was genocide? There is a difference between the invader subjugating the indigenous, & deliberately attempting to exterminate them.

The more evidence that is unearthed, the more it seems that the A/S invasion, for example, resulted in neither the extermination nor mass displacement of the existing celts. Similarly, the Norman conquest (Boo! Hiss! *g*) essentially only replaced the ruling class, not the existing population. Culture is a different matter, particularly from the perspective of several hundred years. It requires a relatively long period of time to effect, & systematic destruction is difficult to prove, hence my scepticism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Gareth
Date: 24 May 04 - 07:58 PM

Hmmm ! - Well fair point, the Normans did not import thier own serfs.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: GUEST,eliza c
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:48 AM

Ben was disturbed by the nature of leafleting of performers by the organisers of a Celtic festival in Florida about four years ago-much mention of the joining together of ancient blood and meeting your true brothers. Ben's a Scot, played with the Peatbog Faeries.
I agree that fascists and nationalists do tend to be opportunistic. Perhaps a natural consequence of traditional music becoming more well-known in the world will be more of these people and their awful ideas latching on to us. I guess we know what to do with them when we find them!!
x eliza
ps what a strange image, the weeny baby in the weeny hood. Crikey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Teribus
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:06 PM

The Celts seem a rather odd group for any organisation promoting White Supremacist views to adopt - very little in the macho sense, that these "White Supremacists" seem to adore, that the Celts ever had could give such idiots the feeling that they were ever in anyway superior to any of the cultures and societies that first, confronted the "Celts", suceeded in driving them from their lands, and completely overwhelming them.

Oh, Ake..."early Scottish settlers in and around Virginia.
Apparently they were involved in the trade and use of black slaves." I doubt if there were any Scottish settlers in and around Virginia, or any of the other 13 states, before 1707. Being English colonies the Scots were not even allowed to trade with them before the union of the Parliaments.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:06 PM

Da-gone, Raedwulf. If you need an offering for Þekkr, I've got a list.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 04 - 11:58 AM

For those who love things Celtic / Irish / Scottish I hate to burst your bubble. But growing racism is a serious problem in Ireland at the moment. Our own facist minister for justice is attempting to rush in a change to our constitution to discontinue the right to Irish citizenship through birth. We have just had 30 years of sectarian conflict in Ireland. During the second world war there was a serious facist movement in Ireland called the blueshirts who planned to seize power through a coup and who sent fighters to Spain to support Franco during the Spanish Civil War. Not only that but they were blessed by the archbishop of Dublin on departure.
On a lighter note - Why did God invent alcohol --- To stop the Irish taking over the world (joke)


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: GUEST,Yorkshire lad
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:32 AM

As a Yorkshire man born and bred I don`t have to go far to realise that The British Nationalst Pary [BNP] do not have to go far to recruit followers to their racist Party.

The BNP in the industrial areas of England are all locals,
My Grandfather fought alongside Irish and Scots in the International Brigade in the Spanish Civil War they were brave men, who foresaw the consequences of the rise of Nationalism in Germany Italy and Spain.

Can any country in the world describe itself as completely free of racism?.


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: GUEST,Lovechild
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:43 PM

Racism sucks


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Subject: RE: BS: Celtic/White Supremicist Connections?
From: robomatic
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:49 PM

I took a look at web info on the Limerick 'pogrom' which was apparently a nasty anti-Jewish movement led by a priest and his buddies which ultimately drove Jewish families from that town. While nasty, it is not remotely comparable to what had been and was going on in Russia by the name of pogrom, which was governmentally supported over a period of decades, led to the deaths of hundreds if not thousands and the terrorism of hundreds of thousands.

Jews and non-Jewish Irish have much more in positive common than this. Irish Jews worked for the independence of the Irish nation and have held political office in Ireland. Not too long ago the mayor of Dublin was Jewish and the President of Israel was Irish.

There may be some in the racist movements who refer to the Celtic race, just as any racist person is going to pick - surprise! - the race from which he or she thinks they derive. Back in the day there was some high Nazi official who was part American Indian, so in Germany American Indians became honorary Aryans, just as many people such as Churchill and Roosevelt became 'honorary' Jews through opposition to the Nazi regime.

On many levels the '-ishes' have been brought together by being newcomers in a strange land. As an old Irish friend of my grandfather's said: "The oppressed know one another." Irish and Jewish immigrants alike experienced prejudice on a level of racism during their early experiences in the United States, and both rose to high average positions on the socio-economical scale of the country, while remaining quite liberal in outlook. One fantastic example of this is the career of one of my favorite politicians, Daniel Patrick Moynihan, who left us last year. He once noted how Jews in America lived on a scale comparable to WASPS, but voted with the same pattern as Puerto Ricans.

There have been hiccups here and there, a nasty joker on the radio named Father Coughlin, but more than balanced by a great guy called Cardinal Cushing, who told the story of getting in a cab in New York City in the 60's, being recognized by the Jewish cabbie who told him, "You're my favorite rabbi!"

In Anchorage the Bishop Hurney participated in the groundbreaking for the Synagogue.

Irish Americans also played supporting roles in helping the nation of Israel get started. I've heard stories on this from several sources.

Erin Go Bragh!


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