BS: A Question for Buddhists.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 11:10 AM

Can't help with bedbugs, but keeping ants out and off can be easily down by spreading baby powder where you do not want them. They will not cross it, or if they do, they can't stand it and leave. It works, I've tried it.

Here are a couple of things I found online re' bed bugs:

A mixture of salt and boric acid may help you to get rid of bugs. From http://pests.in

and

one time i was in a hostel on oahu and the bedbugs were bad. we took a ton of baking soda and rubbed it onto the bare mattress, in the crevices and left a layer of it there and then put the sheet on and it helped them stay away, i heard it's because they suffocate.

Some helpful stuff .

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 08:37 AM

McGrath correctly mentioned Jains as the people you speculate about, not buddists.

The Jains simply use brooms or the high tech Jains... compressed air.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: GUEST,Marc
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:39 AM

Hmm. This thread seems to have died years ago, but it popped up in my search engine when I asked, "how do Buddhists deal with vermin and pests?" Therefore, I will add something anyway. I asked this question because I have a type of pest in my home that was not specifically mentioned. It was my thinking that perhaps people who have strict rules against killing any living thing would have an extremely creative approach to this kind of pest, but maybe not.

Bedbugs do not come in from outside. They are brought in, by unsuspecting people, on or in various containers and furniture, or even on a person's body. Nevertheless, the important thing is that they do not just go away. Your blood is the reason they are with you, and they feed on you incessantly, driving you stark raving mad. They multiply so prolifically that there is always a new strain of young following the deaths of ancestors. They live an incredibly long time, and they can live for many months without feeding. So, removing the food source (yourself, your family and pets) for a little while will not solve the problem. What would a Buddhist do with bedbugs? I am not a strict Buddhist, but even I cannot think of anything that works.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:22 PM

Good stuff, mooman.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: mooman
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:20 PM

Dear Pied Piper,

Once again. with the greatest possible respect, your link is about Hinduism which has nothing whatsoever to do with Buddhism.

Without going into details in this thread:

1. Many Buddhists eat meat, especially Tibetan buddhists for the reason I mentioned above. I personally do not but that is my choice and mine alone and I would not even think about passing a value judgement about those who choose to.

2. No Buddhist condones suffering...it is the antithesis of the Buddhist way of life. All commited Buddhists have a personal commitment to the end of suffering for all beings. We practice this during our meditation (which often includes breathing exercises) and, especially so, in our "daily practice", i.e. putting what you have learnt about your own personal nature to positive use at all times.

3. "Individual salvation" is not part of any branch of Buddhism because Buddism is non-theistic and the idea of "being saved" is irrelevant. What all serious Buddhists strive for (and very few achieve incidentally) is "enlightenment" (i.e. a full understanding about the nature of yourself and of other things). Furthermore, in the Mahayana tradition of Buddhism which includes Tibetan and Zen Buddhism, one cannot become personally fully enlightened until there is an end to suffering and enlightenment for all sentient beings.

4. Karma in the Buddhist sense (we are talking about Pali and Sanskrit words common to both Hinduism and Buddhism but with different meanings in each) has nothing whatsoever with racism. It is rather the law of "cause and effect", i.e. in a simplistic sense "what you reap is what you sow" which is also a concept of major theistic religions. A Buddhist who commits bad or negative acts will therefore reap the consequences of those acts by the "karma" principle.

I hope you find these rather summarized explanations useful!

With very best regards,

Peace,

moo

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:54 PM

How about filling every crack and crevice?

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: SueB
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:46 PM

Ants do follow scent trails - the lavender oil that Freda mentioned would have the effect of obscuring any trails already laid down, and making it difficult for new ones to be created across the lavender oil barrier. Brilliant idea. But what about grasshoppers? I have a house full of them, they're getting into every possible crack and crevice and coming inside, where they inevitably die, one way or another. Happens every spring. So what deters a grasshopper?

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:01 PM

Here

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: JennyO
Date: 28 May 04 - 10:59 AM

In my mind, I can justify swatting mosquitoes, because they attacked me first - likewise other biting and stinging creatures who think I am lunch. This may or may not be very Buddhist, but it works for me.

Jenny

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 04 - 10:51 AM

PP:

It's all inaccurate. Especially from the context of Buddhism.

A

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 28 May 04 - 10:36 AM

I'm not a Buddhist, so really I shouldn't be anwering this thread, as it seems to be directed towards them. But obviously I'm not the only one who wants to help, with or without direct knowledge of what might be the proper course of action if I were a Buddhist. Than again, I also think that this question was open to anyone who might have an idea how to deal with the problem, without killing the ants, which I presume is the point of the whole exercise? Or had the decision to kill the ants already been made, and it was more about what was going to happen to you now that the deed had been done, or was about to be done? Or was it purely from a philosophical point of view, and they were always really hypothetical ants, in which case, the idea of talking to them seems rather ridiculous, though perhaps that would work on another plane, where you could kind of tune into the Ant Cosmic Consciousness, in which case, you could solve the problem by telling them in advance what your apprehensions are, and see whether they are affected by that and simply leave you alone.

Sure hope this helps!..xx..e


(PS-But as for the mosquitoes, I say KILL THEM ALL!!!!!!!)

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 May 04 - 09:53 AM

Which bit do you think is inacurate?

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: mooman
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:29 AM

Pied Piper,

With the greatest possible respect, your post of 6:45 am seems to indicate you know very little indeed about Buddhism.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:12 AM

If you have been affected by any of the issues raised in this thread, you can call the Helpline for counselling [0800 800 800]

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 04 - 07:03 AM

Listen to yourselves will you? Prattling on about buddhism and bug killing! You old timers simply do not have enough to worry about. Never mind, Nursey will be round with your medication soon, then you can have a nice nap and leave mudcat for the under seventy's.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:45 AM

What a tangled web we weave when we our selves, try to deceive.

Life Eats life.
The Buddhist condones suffering by simply breathing.
The idea of individual salvation is obscene and ridiculous.
Karma = Racism

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:32 AM

I am sure I am not alone in dealing with this moral problem in an extremely hypocritical and superstitious way. Faced with a mouse problem,say, I stand in the middle of the kitchen and announce that severe measures will be taken in 24 hours, and accordingly all mice would be well advised to leave the house. Those that stay...well as the monk said in an earlier post, it's their choice.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Stu
Date: 28 May 04 - 06:15 AM

I attended Tibetan Buddhist Mahayana teachings given near to where I lived a few years ago, and this sort of question cropped up occasionally.

The question sort of went, if I step on an insect accidently, will it incur a karmic consequence?

The answer it seems, is to do with intent (and this is fundamental to understanding karma). If you step on an insect by mistake and kill it, you would not accumulate negative karma because you did not intend to kill the insect (interestingly, the insect could have paid off a karmic debt during the suffering it experienced when being stepped on - you may have inadvertently done it a favour). However, by spraying fly spray or steering them into one of those insect zappers, you intent to harm and cause suffering to the insect and you will accumulate negative karma for that action.

So, to answer KimC's original question, you would have to find an alternative (or put on some insect repellant). pdq's monk seems to be cheating to me, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Free Tibet!

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Pied Piper
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:42 AM

Ants move randomly and also follow scent trails left by themselves and other ants.
So if an ant goes somewhere lethal, it will not return leaving another scent trail so the root to the death zone will be a much weaker attractor than the one to the sugar. The one to the sugar will become stronger and stronger until the meditating Buddhist is completely ignored (sensible things Ants).

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:49 PM

Funny L.H. - I never seem to have a bug problem - what are you trying to say . . .

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:25 PM

Or make yourself so undesirable that they want to leave...then they think it's their idea, and they're all for it. This takes nerve, of course...

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: GUEST,Lovechild
Date: 27 May 04 - 05:46 PM

If you want to get rid of pests, the best to do is divorce them

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Kim C
Date: 26 May 04 - 10:07 AM

Lavender oil. I like that. It would make the kitchen smell nice too. I'll give it a try.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Fortunato
Date: 26 May 04 - 10:07 AM

I give the animals I can catch a ride outside. This includes spiders, moths, cicadas, bees, and certain humans.

Pests that can't be caught are dispatched. (Not the humans)

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 04 - 02:01 AM

McGrath of Harlow: 05/25/04 04.27 PM -
"...the ants walked over the line and fell immediately into convulsions and died" - that would likely mean that, after a few had done that, the other ants would see what had happened and avoid it, and keep out of the monk's space.

Considering, of course that you credit the other ants with equating walking over the line, with instant death. (known in some quarters as anthropomorphic thinking).

I think, maybe, that evolution would straighten out the ants line of thinking, but that could well take millions of ants, though probably only decades, really, when we think of how immune some speices can become to, for example, pesticides.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 26 May 04 - 01:14 AM

I rub lavendar oil on my kitchen benches, around the inside edges of all cupboards, and across the front and back doorstep. I have no ants or other insects in my house, and it only needs to be done every few years.

and they're kept away without me having to think about inter-religious squabbles!!

freda

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:47 PM

OK - sorry for an over generalization - really instead of of conservative Christians I should have just said Christians who take the Bible literally. I was writing more quickly than my mind was editing.

Not that I have ANY use for those that are conservative either, but I'll conceide that all conservative Christians don't accept the bible literally.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Kim C
Date: 25 May 04 - 10:58 PM

Okay. Stop right there. This was begun as a quest for knowledge and enlightenment and I do not wish to see it deteriorate into a religious debate based on sweeping generalizations. Not all conservative Christians are as Blackcatter describes.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 May 04 - 06:33 PM

McGrath - that may be a nice perspective, but conservative Christians in the U.S. take the words in the Bible literally. They don't mess with the Hebrew (or other languages). They don't care. They have their apporved translations (King James version is still one of the biggest sellers), they read it, they interpret it (or have it interpreted for them, and follow it. They ignore the parts that don't interest them and xpalin away the parts that miost people would consider to be contradictory.

And by the way - most of them don't like Jews. Remember? The Jews killed Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 06:18 PM

English Bibles are translations. For the actual meaning of a passage, the original Hebrew is what matters. That applies irrespective of whether you are a Jew or a Christian - though of course the literal meaning of the words does not necessarily settle the question of the meaning of a passage.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Kim C
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:39 PM

Thanks mooman. I was just wondering.

It doesn't seem to matter what we put away. The ants come anyhow. They tromp through the cinnamon and the cayenne pepper that was supposed to repel them. I put out some Borax this morning - I don't know if it will do any good.

I just finished reading the Dalai Lama's book, The Art of Happiness at Work. (very good - go read it) Anyhow he seemed like a very practical person, and what I understood him to say is that sometimes you just have to do the very best that YOU can under the circumstances. Ants serve a purpose, and I would rather not kill them, since they're really just a harmless nuisance; but I don't really want to eat or drink them either.

Miller moths and silverfish, well, that's a different story altogether. If I don't kill them, they will harm my food and clothing and whatever else they can get to.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:26 PM

The Hebrew of "Thou shalt not kill" is closer to "Thou shalt not murder." I believe that the Hebrew word implies unjustified killing of other people.

Well, that mabe fine for Jews, but the 3 bibles I have say kill. But hey, many Jews and Christians have had little problem getting around ever one of their "Commandments"

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: GUEST,Buddhist helpline.
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:18 PM

Hello people....It is with instinct that we should act but with a true knowledge of what we are dealing with. Ants for example are the cleanest of the creepy crawlies known to man.....they actually live on what we waste and clean our floors/worktops/bathrooms. Why can we not live in synchronism with these helpful little things.....
Because it is not nice taking a cake from your cupboard and finding ants in it when you have already taken a bite....so cover or wrap all your food in such a way that ants cannot get into it...let them eat off the floor..they do no harm. If they are going to places you do not want them to go..put down a trail of salt...the monk could have put a circle of salt round himself and the ants will not cross it....Try it..it works....salt all the thresholds of your house and see if they get in. written with love for all.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: mooman
Date: 25 May 04 - 05:01 PM

As a Buddhist myself I will go out of my way to avoid intentionally harming anything or anybody. In the case of insects this is usually by way of deterrents like Freda does. For mosquitos, I have a small electronic device that deters the biting females.

I find the story of pdq's friend and the Thai monk quite unusual. I taught in a large Buddhist university monastery for a while and, bar none, all the monks were very particular about not harming pests but preventing being bothered by them where possible. As McGrath rightly says the people to ask who take particular measures are the Jains.

I'm not sure "converting" to Buddhism is the right term. Buddhism is a non-theistic way of living essentially based on compassion and positive action and I don't really think of it personally as a religion is the traditional sense. But as McGrath quite rightly says once again most of us are quite flexible on such matters! The practice is what is matters and that is an individual and unique thing for each Buddhist.

I am vegetarian myself but many Tibetan monks are not as there were/are rather limited supplies of good vegetable produce in mountainous regions like Tibet and Nepal.

Peace

moo

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 May 04 - 04:57 PM

Buddhists tend to be pretty pragmatic, live and let live, though they certainly swat mosquitos when it gets too bad (I speak from bitter experience in jungle monasteries). They tend to drift into discussions of the wheel of life when the going gets tough (swat! hope your next time around is better!!!)

As mentioned above, strict Jains have very strong rules, some wear masks, sweep ahead of themselves, etc. so as not to kill other beings, even those they cannot see. They tend to live outside, as far as I can tell, having only seen them in movies. All the Jains I know are self-admittedly sinners.

yours,

Peter T.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 04:47 PM

Walll, p'raps yer right, there, MGOH...I have been a bit hasty of late! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 04:27 PM

"...the ants walked over the line and fell immediately into convulsions and died" - that would likely mean that, after a few had done that, the other ants would see what had happened and avoid it, and keep out of the monk's space. So most of them would survive, and he'd have an ant-free corner.

I'd call that a reasonable compromise rather than "meretricious hypocrisy". ("Meretricious" - meaning, I take it, that it looks good, but doesn't stand up.)

If it was a slow acting poison so they all marched through and died later, it'd be a different matter.

My impression is that Buddhists tend to be fairly flexible on these kinds of thing - being totally rigid is rather un-Buddhist.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 May 04 - 04:24 PM

Buddhists are not all the same. Not by any means! So what one Buddhist did about pests, vermin, etc, might differ greatly from what another one did.

You can't organize life rigidly around a set of prearranged rules (unless you're a bit crazy...), you have to deal with each unique situation in the most suitable fashion.

I don't find household pests to normally be a very big problem. Having simple things like screens can keep most of them out, but when I'm in Trinidad or Cuba, for example, there usually are no screens. Accordingly, a lot of mosquitoes can get in at night through the various windows, which are not sealed as they would be in northern climates. In a situation like that you either lose a whole lot of sleep every night and go crazy swatting mosquitoes in the dark....or...you calm down and accept the fact that you are going to get some bites and learn to sleep regardless. In time, you hardly notice them. You also have to learn not to scratch the bites you get (and then they stop itching within a few minutes and vanish). This takes some resignation and self-control.

If I had a house of my own down there, however, I would no doubt get screens!

As for ants, well, you usually have to remove whatever food is attracting them to some other place where they can't easily find it. Then they go elsewhere.

Spiders and hornets in the house? You can catch them pretty easily and put them outside, by using some tissue paper, a glass, etc...that's what I tend to do. They're happier outside anyway.

Why kill things unnecessarily when there are other simple solutions?

I think people usually kill bugs because they are scared of them. It's a fear-based reaction. That's why hornets sting too. They're afraid. When you try to kill them they naturally get more afraid, so you had better get it right the first time!

I think some people spend far more time worrying about stuff like this than is really sensible. It's not that big a deal. Nature is full of bugs. Live with it. Your ancestors did, after all. Bugs are interesting. Learn to enjoy observing them and you'll get to like them better (with the probable exception of mosquitos and other little biters!).

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: GUEST,Stew
Date: 25 May 04 - 03:58 PM

I once had ants invading a basement area. My solution was to put down two-sided masking tape around the perimeter. There is something in the adhesive that they just love. They would wander over, venture onto the tape and become well stuck forever and ever. I figured they paid the price for their own lust or whatever it is that motivates ants, besides uncles that is...........
Stew

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:50 PM

The Hebrew of "Thou shalt not kill" is closer to "Thou shalt not murder." I believe that the Hebrew word implies unjustified killing of other people.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Blackcatter
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:46 PM

Like many codes of conduct - this issue is often compromized by the reality of life. The Judeo-Christian "Thou shalt not kill" is another god example. Few adherents follow it in any significant way. My own chosen path's main rule is "Do no harm" But I kill bugs and eat meat as do many Wiccans.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:46 PM

Thanks Rap, but it's not carpenters; and we just had the whole place tented, which should have handled the buggers.

A

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 May 04 - 01:43 PM

Amos, you might want to check that wall. You may have an infestation of carpenter ants, or even rot.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Kim C
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:43 PM

If I WERE a Buddhist with a pest problem, how would I handle it?

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:36 PM

Amos:

You chose to make your comfort a higher goal than the livelihood of an entire colony of ants?

So would I.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:30 PM

I seem to find ants attracted to the moisture in a bathroom which is against the external wall. At least, I suppose it is th emoisture, and not the toothpaste or something...

I discourage them by removing the scouts. But if they get too many I line thre place with ant poison and they go elsewhere, for a while. I wish them no ill, but I need them out of my space! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: JenEllen
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:08 PM

Kim,
Get rid of whatever is attracting the ants, they go away on their own. It's a little inconvenient to keep everything in ziploc bags or stored in the fridge or whatever, but eventually the ants get the picture that your house isn't good eating, and they shuffle off to greener pastures. "Patience: the Buddhist Insecticide"

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Kim C
Date: 25 May 04 - 12:03 PM

I'm not a Buddhist, but I don't usually kill bugs that are in my house, except for poisonous spiders, silverfish, cockroaches, and miller moths. All others we normally catch and take outside. But right now we are afflicted with ants and nothing seems to be working very well and I'm getting tired of killing them. I know there's no shortage of ants.

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:52 AM

"It was their choice. They could have walked around".

Doesn't that strike you as meretricious hypocrisy? No offense but, really...it is wholly inconsistent with the degree of compassion he aspired to even though it is completely understandable from a practical viewpoint.

I guess all religions have to compromise when it comes to daily operations in an entropic field.

A

Subject: RE: BS: A Question for Buddhists.
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:29 AM

The people you'd really need to ask that questinn would be Jains.