BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD

Subject: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Amos
Date: 25 May 04 - 11:50 PM

I think it is of great significance that a single book turns out to be the most used source of information about Arab thought, by military and political people, and that book turns out to be a piece of jingoistic hate literature.

See the full story here.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Peace
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:08 AM

That is very disturbing, Amos. Very.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Amergin
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:11 AM

the hateful propaganda in the iraqi schools I'm sure consisted of mainly anti-american work....but it's ok for americans to loathe arabs...

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:11 AM

Welcome o the United States - a kinder - gentler Nazi land.

When will Civil War II begin?

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Amos
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:13 AM

I do believe it has begun underground.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Blackcatter
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:16 AM

Let us hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Amergin
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:17 AM

I think it should have begun in 2001...as soon as he took office...

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:31 AM

Falsehoods About Arabs

They are purported to be non-incestuous by the liberal press.

(But it is common knowledge their randy hides will screw any goat, sheep, grand-daughter, or in-law within their reach.

All marters are reported to be seeking 21 virgins in the after-life

(But most are acknowledged to being so pock-marked-charactor-ugly that they could not score 21 minutes with a camel-bazarre-whore at midnite.

They are good for their debts.

But they will repay you in sand.

Allah has 99-Faces.....it is up to the merchant to determine which face he is dealing with.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: dianavan
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:32 AM

I knew there was something very wrong when I heard that soldiers referred to Arabs as "sand niggers". Seems that racial hatred and religious bigotry die hard. The Bush administration is masterful at using both as a means of garnering support for this war in Iraq.

Amos, I wish it were as simple as storming the parliament like the Georgians did. Or maybe, like I suggested before, this is why the fathers of the constitution included the right to bear arms. We both know that the options are very limited.

Even if (when) Kerry is elected, not a whole lot is going to change. I believe that the change will have to come from the people themselves. The only way that will happen is when people begin to curb their consumption. Another way might be for businesses to become ethical and for investors to invest only in ethical businesses.

Today it is Iraq, tomorrow it will be another country whose resources are coveted in a world of dwindling resources. Multinationals have no ethics, no religion, and no specific nationality. If they can't get what they want at the price they want, they will manipulate a government to take it by force.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: CarolC
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:35 PM

It's profoundly sad that the leaders of this country, the country that calls itself "the most freedom loving nation on earth" would still be using racism as a tool to scare its population into compliance.

What's even more sad is that so few people in this country see these kinds of tactics for what they are.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 26 May 04 - 12:44 PM

Most depressing, Amos. And as we know, this is not the first time nor will it be the last that words are written to incite brutish behaviour. "The Protocols of Zion" can still be purchased on the internet.

Civil War II? Shall I throw out my pacifist ways and pick up the sword? I ask this of myself far more often than I ever thought I would.

:-(

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 May 04 - 06:02 PM

This book is probably wrong but so many others are also.

There are books full of generalizations everywhere.

However, I would suggest that you don't read the book or write one yourself proving this author wrong.

as for this civl war talk, it is almost laughable. Grow up, you 1960s old hippies.

get lilly high.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 26 May 04 - 06:43 PM

Martin, I am not sure about the point you are making - there are many other wrong books, but not being used by the DoD. And the book has indeed been proven wrong - it has even been used as a case study, if I am correct, for bias-driven sociology manuals by a university (name was posted on another thread).

So, what's your point - other than calling people old hippies (was that supposed to be derogatory, by the way? some people would be proud to be old hippies)?

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 May 04 - 03:41 AM

... some people here ARE old hippies...

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 27 May 04 - 04:17 AM

Old Hippy Here and proud to still be one!..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 May 04 - 09:25 AM

All it shows me is intellectual laziness and an unwillingness to consider other points of view.

Someone way back when probably had the book used in college and, because the Prof was adamant that this was, at the time, the best book available, the student touted it the same way to his or her students. Even though time and scholarship had marched on, the book was now entrenched and humans being what they are no attempt was made to use newer, and more intellectually challenging, information.

Witness, for example, the following:

*Failure to recognize that modern arms and thinking demanded changed tactics led directly to slaughter in the US Civil War, in WW1, in the Boer War, and in the US involvement in Vietnam.

*It can be argued that failure to realize that protest was not viewed as a game by the Establishment led to the killings at Kent State and the collapse of the protest movement of the late '60s.

*Failure to accept other points of view has led to any number of horrendous things, not the least of which is the polarization of society.

This intellectual sloth is not the exclusive property of either the military or the pacifist, of the Right or the Left. It's easier by far to travel in a rut than to accept an alternative road.

By the way -- this is one reason why libraries weed their collections.
Old, outdated materials can be dangerous.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Kim C
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:01 AM

Soldiers in every war have unpleasant names for The Enemy. I guess it's some sort of emotional survival tactic. In peacetime I imagine many of them would be loathe to use those terms.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:17 AM

Memorial Day weekend is coming. Let's hope that in with all of the bloody battle flicks they show a few like All Quiet on the Western Front and Sergent York. Rebroadcast of Tenko and A Town Like Alice would also be a thoughtful way to use the time.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:35 AM

By way of clarification, these movies and programs don't have to do with falsehoods about Arabs, but with the juxtaposition of truth and falsehoods about war.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:25 AM

As I posted elsewhere.
I have reviewed the required reading list for West Point (Army) and Annapolis (Navy/Marine Corps) and neither academy requires that book.
I was unable to find the Air Force list for theirs, but they only have two copies of the book, one per library on the base. What is the source of this story's claim that DOD is using that book and that book alone for insight?

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:31 AM

From the link in Amos' first post to this thread:

"Hersh was discussing the chain of command that led US troops to torture Iraqi prisoners. Referring specifically to the sexual nature of some of this abuse, he wrote: "The notion that Arabs are particularly vulnerable to sexual humiliation became a talking point among pro-war Washington conservatives in the months before the March 2003 invasion of Iraq.

"One book that was frequently cited was The Arab Mind ... the book includes a 25-page chapter on Arabs and sex, depicting sex as a taboo vested with shame and repression."

Hersh continued: "The Patai book, an academic told me, was 'the bible of the neocons on Arab behaviour'. In their discussions, he said, two themes emerged - 'one, that Arabs only understand force, and two, that the biggest weakness of Arabs is shame and humiliation'."

Last week, my own further enquiries about the book revealed something even more alarming. Not only is it the bible of neocon headbangers, but it is also the bible on Arab behaviour for the US military.

According to one professor at a US military college, The Arab Mind is "probably the single most popular and widely read book on the Arabs in the US military". It is even used as a textbook for officers at the JFK special warfare school in Fort Bragg."

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Kim C
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:47 AM

So he talked to two professors. That's not many. Also he doesn't say what "US military college" one of his sources is from, and apparently just took the professor at word that the book is used at Fort Bragg, rather than trying to verify the information.

Now, I'm not saying it isn't true, but this looks like it's meant to be a pretty sensational article. I think it bears further investigation.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 04 - 11:59 AM

It is even used as a textbook for officers at the JFK special warfare school in Fort Bragg.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:01 PM

Oops. Missed part of what you said, Kim. I guess it would be easy enough to verify the assertion though.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Metchosin
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:19 PM

further from the above linked article:

Patai died in 1996, but his book was revived by Hatherleigh Press in 2002 (nicely timed for the war in Iraq), and reprinted with an
enthusiastic introduction by Norvell "Tex" De Atkine, a former US army colonel and the head of Middle East studies at Fort Bragg.
"It is essential reading," De Atkine wrote. "At the institution where I teach military officers, The Arab Mind forms the basis of my cultural
instruction."

As noted this book was reprinted in 2002, with the new introduction by De Atkine and last time I checked through Google a few days ago, De Atkine was still head of Middle East studies at John F Kennedy Special Warfare Center at Fort Bragg.

As I said on the other thread, when I first posted this article Chief Chaos, this material referred to that which is used by the Army, by Tex's own proud admission.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Kim C
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:39 PM

So one instructor at one military college is an asshole. That doesn't mean EVERYONE in the armed forces is reading this book.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 04 - 12:56 PM

If it is an institutional standard in a military school, then that book has a lot of influence, a ripple effect in bigotry that isn't of any help to anyone.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:02 PM

The point is that far too many are reading it.

It drives a wedge between peoples, just as the 19th century bushwah about genetic differences between races, used to support the horrible notion of manifest destiny and WASP Empire, did. Any gross generality which is also negative should immediately be rejected as a form of direct lie.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:05 PM

The blurb Hatherleigh Press (www.hatherleighpress.com) wrote to accompany the book:

The classic study of Arab culture and society is now more relevant than ever. Since its original publication in 1983, the revised edition of Raphael Patai's The Arab Mind has been recognized as one of the seminal works in the field of Middle Eastern studies. This penetrating analysis unlocks the mysteries of Arab society to help us better understand a complex, proud and ancient culture. The Arab Mind discusses the upbringing of a typical Arab boy or girl, the intense concern with honor and courage, the Arabs' tendency toward extremes of behavior, and their ambivalent attitudes toward the West. Chapters are devoted to the influence of Islam, sexual mores, Arab language and Arab art, Bedouin values, Arab nationalism, and the pervasive influence of Westernization. With a new foreword by Norvell B. DeAtkine, Director of Middle East Studies at the JFK Special Warfare Center and School, Fort Bragg, N.C., this book unravels the complexities of Arab traditions and provides authentic revelations of Arab mind and character.

About the Author
Raphael Patai was the author of over 600 articles and more than twenty books. A native of Hungary, he taught at Princeton, Columbia, and the University of Pennsylvania. A prolific cultural anthropologist, Dr. Patai died in 1996.

I don't think that I'd want to use as a primary source a work published twenty years ago. But as I said earlier, folks get into an intellectual rut.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Kim C
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:06 PM

The book only has influence as far as the people reading it want to actually believe it. (A lot of people read the Bible and don't believe it.) I agree that such a book shouldn't be used as a factual text for an upper-level class. I also think the article implies a much wider scope of influence than is actually involved; but now that the word is out, perhaps there will be a move to have it removed from De Atkine's reading list.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: CarolC
Date: 27 May 04 - 01:53 PM

And yet, the way the neo-Cons in the Bush administration and many of our military leaders are approaching how they deal with Arabic peoples is uncannily in sync with the assertions made in the book. Maybe it's coincidence. But to my mind, coincidence seems like the less likely of the two possibilities.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 02:03 PM

Just so...

A

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Kim C
Date: 27 May 04 - 03:27 PM

Have you all read the book to know exactly what all the assertions are? The article just gives a brief overview.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Amos
Date: 27 May 04 - 03:28 PM

The article quotes a number of them but no, I have not read the book.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 04 - 06:52 PM

Kim C, I have not read the book, but I have spent a considerable amount of time this afternoon learning about it. This was time consuming because the JSTOR pages had to be printed then cut and scanned and edited to turn into the text I am going to paste in here. I found 8 reviews of Patai's book, and all but one (and that one is very short) are lucidly critical of Patai's pseudo science.

I'm going to post the durable link at the end that is reachable if you're at an institution that has permission to use JSTOR (libraries, primarily). Here are the first 3 pages of a long review by Elaine C. Hagopian, published in Journal of Palestine Studies Summer, 1977, pages 122-130. If you follow the link, it requires Adobe Reader to view it. This review makes the point well, and is echoed by the others I found.

---National character studies were quite popular in American social science in the 1940s and 1950s. World War II was an additional stimulant to an area of interest that has fascinated human beings for centuries, i.e., to describe and generalize personality characteristics for whole populations. A small flood of theoretical and substantive studies were produced during this period, In a short time, a reverse tide of publications critical of both the theoretical and the substantive studies challenged the validity and practical use of such studies in advancing the scientific explanation of human behaviour. Indeed, Otto Klineberg notes that the authors often confused national character with national mythology.

---Of late, the field, most popularly known now as "personality and social structure," has refined its frameworks and procedures and has developed realistic goals for the scientific yield possible from the more delimited studies. Taking off from a suggestion made by Alex Inkeles in 1948, these newer studies tend to recognize a variety of personality types (modal personality types) in a given population, and to relate them to the social context and structural locations of the actors. The studies are now primarily concerned with the interaction of personality systems with sub-units of the social system and the consequences for order and change. Rarely does one see the type of study represented in the works of Gorer, Maad, Benedict, DuBois, LaBarre, Bateson, Kardiner, etc .There are, of course, popular works, such as Barzini's The Italians, that continue to generalize about whole populations, but few social scientists hazard this road any longer.

---Unaffected by the significant challenge to the validity and scientific usefulness of national character studies, nor even their proven danger in stereotyping a people, Raphael Patai returns to the past focus in his rendering of The Arab Mind.

---Patai is an anthropologist who was born in Hungary, studied with orientalists such as Goldziher and Brockelmann, and was a resident of Palestine from 1933-1947, becoming a frequent visitor to the Middle East thereafter. He is aware of the criticism of the national character studies. Nonetheless, he blithely excludes some and/or "converts" other critiques into a form to make such studies (and therefore his own) appear scientifically valid. For example, he takes note of Inkeles' concept of a number of modal personality structures within a population that is in constant interaction and change with the social system, but he excludes the specific reformulation of the field suggested by Inkeles. In fact, he "converts" what Inkeles says into the form Patai's biases require. He says :


The basis of modal personality or national character studies is the observation that human beings who grow up in a common environment exhibit beyond their individual differences, a strong common factor in their personality. . . . I would, therefore, venture to define national character as the sum total of the motives, traits, beliefs, and values shared by the plurality in a national population. Since the personality of the plurality in a given population can also be designated as the modal personality, it appears that national character can be equated with modal personality.
At the same time, one can agree with those who insist on a distinction between national character and modal personality and propose that the former term should be used for the more general concept, while the latter should be applied to more narrowly delimited groups. In any population, and especially in contemporary large-scale industrial societies with their great diversity of constituent sectors, there may be several modal personality structures. This means that the national character consists of the sum total of the modal personality structures found in the national population. [Reviewer's note: lnkeles never says this.]
On the other hand, if the national population studied is fairly homogeneous as far as its ethnic composition is concerned, one will find that the modal personalities of any two or more sample groups will be sufficiently similar to warrant extrapolation from them to the character of the national population at large. . . ." (pp. 18-19)


---Thus Patai is able to prepare us for the sweeping generalizations he is about to make regarding "the Arab mind" in his following chapters by claiming (without advancing any valid evidence) that the Arab world is a culturally homogenous area. Therefore, he can generalize about all Arabs from disparate studies of some Arabs. (This is somewhat equivalent to generalizing about old Bostonian families from a study of Kansas farmers.) But further, since the Arab world is not an industrial society, and thus not differentiated and specialized, one can "legitimately" speak of a culture area, and thus "a modal personality" that is equated by Patai with national character, i.e. "the Arab mind. " This "Arab mind" can therefore "explain" all Arab political, social and economic behaviour. Patai ignores the serious observations made by lnkeles on such constructs:


The term "national character," . . .has been used in the broadest possible sense as being more or less synonymous with all learned cultural behaviour. . . . Clearly so global a concept does not permit the precise gathering of data.
Unfortunately, in the existing studies the selection of the components of personality to be studied has frequently been haphazard, impressionistic, and arbitrary. Little has been done to insure comparativity from one study to another. In addition, the existing studies frequently give so little specification of the methods whereby regularities were delineated, that it is difficult if not impossible to replicate and thereby verify findings.


---Next, Patai turns his attention to presenting his various frameworks and methods for his study. Here too, he chooses to ignore the critics of such frameworks, and elects methods for collection of "data" that would not be employed by an introductory anthropology student. He produces a cacophony of frameworks and methods which he advances as a "sound" methodology for dissecting "the Arab mind" scientifically.

---Frameworks. Patai integrates two approaches. He selectively identifies and interprets Arab child-rearing practices and relates them to adult behaviour. On the other hand, he selectively identifies cultural values and attributes of Arab language, arts, music, literature, etc., which he interprets psychologically and offers as the social context from which socialization of the child draws its content. Thus, of course, the results of each framework will support the results of the other since the author created both, arranged their content, and asserted their linkage.
---Regarding childhood training, there are numerous critiques of this approach when it attempts to generalize the adult behaviour of a whole population from specific practices. 5 lnkeles notes, for example, that:

Read the rest online or in the journal, if it is available.
Durable link: http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0377-919X%28197722%296%3A4%3C122%3ATAM%3E2.0.CO%3B2-0


SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Kim C
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:00 PM

Thanks SRS. That's good information.

I guess this all begs the question, then, how does one learn about another culture? Don't generalizations play into that somehow? I mean, if we say something like, most people in Arab countries are Muslim - is that true or not? And if so, is it offensive to make that generalization? When we talk about cultural habits, such as the proper way to greet someone, the proper way to act at table in a particular country - are those not generalizations too?

What sort of generalizations are acceptable, and which are not?

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 27 May 04 - 08:07 PM

Generalisations are tools. Acceptability depends on intention, it's as simple as that.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 May 04 - 10:38 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:36 AM

...and must always be viewed as background, not the definition of the particular.

I have sat over couscous with Arab families and considered them my friends. I would no sooner stereotype them with these generalizations than I would some of the rabid right-wing reactionary republican types around here... :>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 May 04 - 10:23 AM

A good start to learning about another culture is to read some of the literature. How to find the good literature from another culture? I'd start by finding some reviews, such as I quoted from above, to learn about books that are available in good (hopefully annotated) translations. You're not going to find Journal for Palestine on your local newsstand most likely, but if you visit a library and logon to JSTOR you'll find a section on Middle Eastern Studies. Visit the journals listed there and choose your selections from someplace like those journals. They're peer review journals, meaning that they pass muster of people who work and study in the field of Middle Eastern Studies.

There are many other cultural areas you can look at, not just Middle Eastern, so don't read this answer as if it applies only to the subject at hand.

Storytellers hold a privileged position in most cultures. Stories teach about cultures, and they help people learn how to get along, how to solve problems, and to feel that they're not alone. They might be cautionary tales. You'll learn something useful by taking that path. It might not be the same as reading a distilled list of characteristics of some people in some cultures, but you'll get a better feel for the humanity of the people.

I'll take an example of a good American story. To Kill a Mockingbird is a book I read to my kids a couple of years ago, and as good as that was as a story, it also provides powerful examples of types of people and social responses to them. We regularly harken back to Mockingbird when we're discussing other events in the world. Think of how that book would convey ideas about the American culture when it is presented in a good translation for people in other countries to read. See what I mean?

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:37 PM

Okay,
I've contacted someone at the school to verify that they use the text and will try to find out in what context it is being used (don't count on a response as to the latter as I'm not sure if that would be considered classified).

Please keep in mind that this is a "Special Forces" school and that very few people in the military actually attend them. I can tell you that the book is not here at my office even though we might be using something like it if the Gov't really thought it was useful in identifying the "enemy".

I hope I haven't given the impression that I'm right wing or militaristic. I just know that the folks that I have worked for and with (with few exceptions) and known throughout my life are decent people that would not be accepting of anything that is this blatantly racist. The idea that we all go around calling them by racist names is ludicrous. Just like thinking that the liberals among us are commie, pinko, etc. etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 04 - 12:43 PM

I actually had a Philadelphia cop ask me once whether I was a hippie-commie-faggot-pinko-bastard. I told him I wasn't, and he hit me across the mouth.

He said, "Don't lie to me, you hippie-commie-faggot-pinko-bastard!".

Maybe he was having a bad hair day, or something!! It was a long time ago.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:01 PM

I think all cops should be highly paid, have excellent working conditions, and at a minimum, a Bachelor's degree in a discipline that studies social issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: DougR
Date: 28 May 04 - 01:30 PM

Interesting article, Amos. When I looked up the article, thanks to your blue clicky, I wondered, "Who in the heck is Brian Whitaker?" "Why is my friend, Amos, so taken with him?"

So I did a Google search and guess what turned up. The first reference was to the article you (Amos) referred us to. The second one was an article written by Mr. Whitaker, also in The Guardian, dated February 25, 2002. In that article Mr. Whitaker points out the terrible consequences that would occur if Saddam was removed from power in Iraq. I read it. Gee, if Saddam is removed from power, it might upset the other dictators in the region, and Saddam would no longer have a job!

So my question was answered. Who is Brian Whitaker? Why, he is an admirer of Saddam and didn't want to see him replaced. No matter that the Iraqis suffered terribly under his regime and were he gone, they might have an opportunity for the first time in their lives to experience living in freedom.

Excellent article, Amos, certainly worthy of everybody reading. It's so unbiased.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 May 04 - 03:01 PM

DougR, that's a foolish line of reasoning when reading the earlier text you refer to. One doesn't have to be in favor of Saddam to see that his removal is one of those operations that might be successful but will kill the patient.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:06 PM

As some may know, I was one of the biggest old hippies of them all until I decided to stop wasting my money on pot and start buying vintage guitars instead.

besides, I didn't want to be on the endangered species list.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:21 PM

MG, it would appear that you also abandoned the ethos of peace and love as well. Of course, a lot were only interested in the trappings and entirely missed the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Once Famous
Date: 28 May 04 - 04:30 PM

Not totally true, metchosin. I don't see the world thru a dopey haze, actually. It has nothing to do with peace and love. You live in a fantasy world, that lives pretty much only in cyberspace now.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: Metchosin
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:29 PM

MG, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but any fantasy world regarding me is entirely your own perception. I was not among those that tuned in, turned on and dropped out.

Subject: RE: BS: Falsehoods About Arabs Used by DoD
From: S O P
Date: 28 May 04 - 05:45 PM

what are you guys fussin' about, didn't Disney give 'em a fair shake in "Aladdin"?