Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts

Subject: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: GUEST,Anguished annd hoarse of UK
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 08:24 AM

This is an agony aunt kind of question, and requires a certain degree of tact, (hence the alias) but does anyone have information on, or experience of, how the wearing of shorts might affect choice of key?

A brief discussion started in the gents at our local club last week, about a resident singer who took to wearing shorts some months ago at a time when it was still necessary to scrape ice from the windscreen after an evening at the club. This same gent now seems to be selecting higher and higher keys to sing in. As a result the other men of the club are now divided between those becoming increasingly adept at improvising bass harmonies and those who are thinking of deploying specialist underwear.

I'd be grateful for advice as to how one might tactfully draw attention to this without causing offence. It has also occurred to some of us that this problem might have something to do with the increasingly strident appeals that everyone else in the club wear shorts too. These requests are becoming increasingly difficult to refuse even in the current unseasonably chilly weather.   (So you may guess how this discussion started.)

A number of us would be grateful if this could be amicably resolved as one half the club is beginning to sound like a tribe of hysterical brass monkeys, the other like demented Paul Robeson impersonators.

In order to protect the innocent, and avoid anyone jumping to entirely the wrong conclusion, may I suggest that agony aunts responding from the UK use a guest alias…..

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 09:15 AM

Singing in shorts?

Do you mean those trousers that end just above the knee? The sort of underwear (and if so, how tight)? Films that last only a few minutes? A rain of artillery shells that fall short of their target (forget singing, take cover)? Electrical problems?

I'm serious about the questions (well, at least the first two).

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: GUEST,Angushed and Hoarse
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 10:08 AM

Repaire, thanks,

I had, unforgivably, overlooked the different understandings of the word 'shorts' on each side of the Atlantic.   In this context please take the meaning to be short over trousers finishing above or about the knee, rather than any garment worn next to the skin.

I do however, hesitate in posting this clarification for fear that I put ideas into anyone's head. I take it you are familiar with the eccentricities of English folk clubs?    We have a long tradition of songs about cross dressing, naked highwaymen (or women), and suchlike.


Anguished & Hoarse

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 10:12 AM

iF THEY TRY TO SING IN my SHORTS i CAN GUARANTEE THERE WILL be NO lONG tERM. :~)

Damn Capslock!

~Susan

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Amos
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 10:14 AM

I wouldn't want most people singing in my shorts, certainly, but a limited amount of well-directed humming would be acceptable.

A

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Moses
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 10:19 AM

You could try asking Breezy about the long term effects of singing whilst wearing shorts.

I would advise caution if I were you!

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 10:53 AM

Which club are you referring to ? - it wouldn't be "Sharps" would it ?

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 11:37 AM

There is nothing new in this phenemenon. It has been well documented, examples having been seen in a number of English speaking countries where folk clubs abound. (See "Strange Goings On in Folk Clubs" by Shirley & Curley). It is nothing more than the transformation of the male singer to the female singer, hence the rise in the scale. The wearing of shorts is the intermediate part of the process and in this hemispere one should expect the change to be complete by August. Then one should see twin sets, delicate linen tops edged in lace and voluminous flowing skirts, the voice having reached by then mezzo-soprano.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 12:27 PM

"In this context please take the meaning to be short over trousers finishing above or about the knee, rather than any garment worn next to the skin."

I fail to understand how the wearing of either of those sorts of apparel could possibly affect one's voice, either range or quality. Enlighten me, please!

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 01:44 PM

Uncle DaveO: it is a well known phenomenon that a "short sharp shock" (identify the original quote please!) to the genitalia of a man may resuly in his singing falsetto (or even castrato!).
Similarly, the shock of reduced temperature caused by failing to protect ones nether regions may have a similar effect.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: artbrooks
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 01:59 PM

May one suggest that a brief application of a warm, friendly hand may reverse the problem? Other problems may result, however. Perhaps a sporran containing a hot water bottle worn over the shorts would be a better solution, at least in public places.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: GUEST,Sligo Lark
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 02:18 PM

I can't tell you how glad I am that someone has at long last had the guts to bring this up on Mudcat, Finally I feel vindicated, and I hope people will now treat this matter more seriously.   Three years ago, I had a very acrimonious split from my former singing partner some six months after he started to wear short trousers on stage. On my mother's grave I'll swear that by the end he was singing a good half octave higher than when we started out. Harsh things were said at the parting, and we've not exchanged a word since.   I remain deeply hurt by the experience.

The bastard though, wouldn't have it, He accused me of losing my voice, and I had to put up with all his jokes about getting a hairy chin and needing to shave before a gig. On top of that everybody believed him and not me when things went wrong.   The Jerk. Last I heard of him he had become the blonde in a Dublin drag act, and was singing lead falsetto. Hugh, on this evidence I'd say your post about dresses and necklaces is spot on.

So 'Anguished and Hoarse', in response to your request, I can only offer advice based on my own experience. The moment you get the merest hint that the man is shaving his legs, you'd best take yourself off to another club and good riddance.

The Sligo Lark

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 03:38 PM

Perhaps "shorts" should read "gelding harness," that makes more sense.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 03:40 PM

. . . or they're BIG shorts, like a tent.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Eric the Viking
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 03:42 PM

perhaps we should all sing and play in shirts-it helped Angus young greatly!

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Joe Offer
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 03:47 PM

This is a very interesting subject, crucial to the survival of mankind - but I think it belongs in the non-music section of the Forum. Its relationship to music is only tangential.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Jeri
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 04:37 PM

Joe, they don't get that tan if you wear shorts.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 05:44 PM

Joe O., did you mean to say "tangenital"?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 05:53 PM

Martin Wyndham-Read tends to wear shorts at festivals, and it certainly doesn't seem to do his singing any harm.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 06:27 PM

What about those who sing while wearing kilts? It would seem to me that their voices should likewise go up in pitch. Mayhap this chap refered to had a wee accident while wearing shorts and scraping ice from his windscreen? One he felt was unfit to share with anyone other than his physician?

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Peace
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 07:01 PM

Every Canadian has at one time or other frozen his/her tongue to something metal in winter. From a guy's perspective, freezing 'that' or 'them' to something metal boggles the mind.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 07:36 PM

But does he wear socks with his sandals when wearing shorts! A peculiar British thing.

At least he is not like some of my neighbours who go shopping in their PJ's which is a peculiar Shanghai thing during the summer.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jun 04 - 07:56 PM

I think we should eliminate all variables and have everyone sing wearing just WOAD
. THAT should settle who is getting unfair advantage by the use of unscrupulous clothing!

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: GUEST,femcat
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 03:29 AM

Good idea, Bill D, for ..men, that is..

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Shanghaiceltic
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 04:27 AM

Maybe it is time to test the theory properly.

A control group of fully clothed folkies (men only), a group of semi clothed folkies (shorts, kilts), and a group of just naked folkies (woad & tatoo's optional). Trousers and shorts to be checked for tension by unbiased adjudicators, for those wearing kilts a wee sing on the sporran must tell the judges if they are au natural or covered.

Each group has to sing the same repetoir and alchohol strictly controlled to the same levels for each group. Ditto instruments for each group, though I suggest a lap played accordion or concertina not be used by the naked performers.

Judging strictly to be done on aural quality and not on clothes, tatoo's, quality of woad, or general physical appearance!

Trouble is you need a bunch of unbiased listeners so no family members (pun not intended)to watch there own kith and kin perform.

Potential PhD material in this?

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: GUEST,Anguished and Hoarse
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 06:33 AM

"Tangental to the music?" This may be a disappointment but it hardly comes as a surprise. I may have been a little glib with the title of the thread, thereby overemphasising the humorous side of a serious subject. The attitude that UK men have to their "nether regions" as has been delightfully demonstrated so far in this thread, so it comes as no surprise that this attitude continues to cause concern to the medical profession. Indeed, this was recently highlighted in a BBC campaign aimed to promote awareness of testicular concern, where it emerged that in comparison to women and breast cancer, men were far less likely to examine themselves in order to catch the disease at a stage where it remains curable.   

References to moving up the vocal register have also been regarded by some contributors as synonymous with a move towards gender change. I have an uneasy feeling about the contribution from the Sligo Lark in this respect. To me this seems to re-enforce an old, perhaps rather silly, prejudice.   After all, the Bee Gees didn't do so badly out of using the falsetto voice.

Before this goes any further perhaps I should point out that the testes are actually designed by nature to be kept a around three degrees colder than the core body temperature, hence their positioning. In this respect wearing shorts could be said to actually improve male fertility.

May I refer you back to my original concern, a singer who habitually wears shorts, even in unusually cold weather, and appears to be singing in progressively higher keys, possibly as a result.   In response to Dave Bryant, no I feel I can't name the club, but it is not the one you mention, which makes be begin to think that this may not be an isolated incident. Similarly Moses, I am not in a position to comment, but I understand that Breezy does a lot of busking. If he frequently does this in shorts, then he may be prone the condition as it may well be caused by long term exposure to low ambient temperatures.   Look for the "umbles" — stumbles, mumbles, fumbles, and grumbles — these show that cold is affecting how well a person's muscles and nerves work. In short Moses, your interest seems to imply you are concerned that Breezy's vocal range might be moving inexorably upwards?

Much has is said in singing tutorials about the importance of muscle control, particularly in the diaphragm. The thesis here is essentially very simple. Do people who expose themselves to the cold, or sing in the cold, for long periods tend to use the head voice rather than chest voice?   Does the head voice become overdeveloped as a result, and are they starting to sound like the Bee Gees when they then sing in clubs?    If we observe this in friends and acquaintances how do we point it out without causing offence?

Thank you shanghaiceltic. I agree a scientific approach is required here.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Grab
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 08:29 AM

I should imagine that if what's in your shorts gets singed, you would sing out in a loud high voice... oh, singing not singeing...

As a £9 singer myself (I can't quite make a full tenor) I'd appreciate the help. I wear shorts early, but it's not helped my singing any, except that it's easier to breathe in loose shorts than in tight jeans.

Hint to shorts-wearers: if they've not got mesh to hold your bits in, always wear undies underneath. Even if the shorts are too long or tight on your legs for anything to show, there's always going to be some eagle-eyed person who pays too much attention when you sit down. Trust me on this.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: muppett
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 10:10 AM

It's easier to prance about when you're singing with shorts on, plus with the sort of Summer weather we have in the UK when you're at a festival over here it's easier to dry your legs then it is a pair of trousers, Hence me wearing them, plus folk are that used to seeing me wearing shorts I get the piss taken out of me if I wear trousers.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: freda underhill
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 10:22 AM

GUEST,Anguished and Hoarse - are you any relation to Avril Betts, by any chance?

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Cluin
Date: 22 Jun 04 - 05:04 PM

Yes. Remember... short controlled bursts. Don't waste yourself.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: JennieG
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 06:44 AM

Do you stir your coffee with your thumb?

Cheers
JennieG

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 10:17 AM

My pair of shorts, which had a rip in them, have now been mended by Linda who has sewn a Mudcat Patch over the hole.

I can think of quite a few singers who perform under the influence of shorts (of the alcoholic kind).

Freda - I'm not sure that I'd dare to wear shorts with Avril Betts around - she's been known to fondle men's bums when they've got jeans on !

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 10:52 AM

couldn't have that, could we..

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 10:54 AM

ps.. did anyone notice the ads for Calvin Klein undies and for silk shorts that magically attached themselves to this thread tonight?

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: GUEST,Hugh Jampton
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 11:31 AM

We once had a tenor at our Catford F.C.who was so well endowed that he was known as Eric "Excused shorts" Tebble. Poor guy. He never experienced the pleasure and freedom of such garments but he also was never worried about his voice changing.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 04:46 AM

Was that Catford, SE London ? and if so which club - The Railway or the Rising Sun - or somewhere else ?

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 09:44 AM

I knew a guy who sang in Short's. He sang sharp in Short's. And he couldn't remember most of the words to the most common songs. Went something like

"He was dirty and hairy and hummmmmmmmmmdiddyhum
But he had his diddleydo by hummmmmmmms de dees
All hail the mmmmmmmmmmm King of England!"

Well, some of of the customers in Short's were still fighting the American Revolution and assumed that he was singing a song in praise of George the Third. And, as I said, he sang it sharp.

So they stomped him and hit him and tossed him out into the alley and from there I assume that he limped home. He was never again seen in Short's, singing sharp or any other way.

The glockenspiel upon which he accompanied himself was hung over the bar as a warning to others.

I don't know if there were any long term effects, other than the glockenspiel getting dusty.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: SueB
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 12:59 PM

Thank you, Graham, for bringing up the necessity for the wearing of underwear with your shorts. We don't care if you gather them up in mesh bags, stretchy cotton, or the softness of silk. We don't care if they are strapped in tightly, or gently arranged just so. We don't want to know. We don't want to see. We are suspicious of men who seem too eager to show us. Trust me on this.

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 06:01 AM

if we join a united europe - all folk singers will be forced to wear lederhosen and yodel. That moral weakling Tony Blair has extracted the useless concession that we include the Freddy and the Dreamers hit who wears short shorts in all medleys over ten minutes duration.

All right minded tories think this is a cop out.


read it in the daily mail - 'course it's true......

Subject: RE: Tech: Long Term effects of singing in shorts
From: GUEST,Anguished and Hoarse
Date: 25 Jun 04 - 09:39 AM

I'd like to sum up what I've learned from the contributions to this thread:

       There was a folk singer called Slaughter,
        Wore his shorts far shorter than he ought'ter.
        Once when singing his hits,
        The frost caught his bits,
        Now he's frequently mistook for his daughter.

Hmmmmm....   

        There was a fine singer called Bryant,
        Who's dress code was never compliant.
        One day in the nude………

Woooops!

        That grand old Catter Rapaire
        Took to singing while totally bare…..

Get thee behind me!

        A stout-hearted fellow called Breezy
        Wore shorties that came to his kneesie……..
        

STOP NOW!


        A nice young lady named Sue B
        Decided to sing for her tea.
        She took off her…..


Arrghhhh!


A & H