Using Quarter tones

Subject: Using Quarter tones
From: pavane
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 07:44 AM

I remember seeing some past discussions of quarter tones in which an unofficial abc extension was mentioned. Does anyone have the details?

To try out quarter tones within HARMONY, you could create a style file called, perhaps, UPaQtr.HST with the following two lines

1,130,10192
99,130,8192

If you apply this style file to a note (from the edit menu), the first line will shift the pitch up by approx. a quarter tone, and the second will unset this at the end of the note.

To fine tune the pitch, adjust the amount 10192 up or down (8192 reverts to standard pitch, 12192 is about a semitone above)

I could apply this automatically if the abc file included quarter tone indicators.

Subject: RE: Using Quarter tones
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 10:25 AM

It was discussed on the abc users' list. I have about 16 e-mails saved from that referring to microtonality and 2 relating to quarter tones. I haven't time to go through them just now, but if you like I could forward them to you. (or you can wait until I've time to look at them and pick out anything relevant).

Mick

Subject: RE: Using Quarter tones
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 10:55 AM

Avril Betts manages to sing 1/4 and 1/8 tones, but I don't think that she means to !

Subject: RE: Using Quarter tones
From: pavane
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 11:07 AM

Thanks Mick.
No rush though

Subject: RE: Using Quarter tones
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 01:01 PM

OK. Here are the most salient posts of the microtonal discussion on the abcusers list. It's mainly proposals for the representation of the microtones, which I think is what you're after. (I didn't check sourceforge to see if any of the abc work there has actually implemented players. Some of the discussants in the e-mails might be worth talking to to see if there's anything more recent (the abcuser list has been quiet recently after the enormous discussion of the proposed 2.0 standard). I've tried to leave the addresses in the posts). It's a bit long I'm afraid.

Mick

---

Proposed symbols for eighth-tone notation:

1/8 sharp:    =`   ( ` is back quote is ascii 96)
1/4 sharp:    ;
3/8 sharp:    `^
1/2 sharp:       ^
5/8 sharp:       ^ `
3/4 sharp:    & or ^ ``
1/8 flat:         `=
1/4 flat:       ?
3/8 flat:       _ `
1/2 flat:       _
5/8 flat:       `_
3/4 flat:       \ or ` `_

Example A `= would be middle-a eighth-tone flat or 6875 MIDI cents.

Regards,

Georg Hajdu


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---

On Tue, 24 Jun 2003, Georg Hajdu wrote:

> The parsing of xml files seems more difficult,

XML is very easy to parse: you can make use of several
free off-the-shelf parsers that either create a
complete document tree (DOM standard) or generate
parser events (SAX standard).

Just have a look at http://xml.apache.org/ for one of
the available solutions.

> > In abc the capital letters H..Z are reserved for
> > user-defined purposes. Software which supported
> > microtonal accidentals could make use of these.

That is not a good idea. Several of these letters
(THLMPSO?) have already a predefined meaning. It would
be better to leave these letters free.

> Now, what about some other ascii 128-255 characters?
> Are they supported by abc?

That is also not a good idea. Chars 128-255 are not
defined by ASCII and have a different meaning depending
on the code page that you use on your computer.

Using these chars would change ABC from a text format
into a binary format.

I think the best solution would be to use the !...!
symbol notation to add extra symbols to the abc
language. Something like !sharp1!, !sharp2!, !sharp3!
etc. If the user so desires, he could bind these
symbols to some of the free letters, via the U:
mechanism.


Groeten,
Irwin Oppenheim
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---

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Georg Hajdu wrote:

> Proposed symbols for eighth-tone notation:
>
> 1/8 sharp:    =`   ( ` is back quote is ascii 96)

[snip]

> 3/4 flat:       \ or ` `_
>
> Example A `= would be middle-a eighth-tone flat or 6875 MIDI cents.

If these are the symbols you need, what about:

1/8 sharp:   ^1
2/8 sharp:   ^2
3/8 sharp:   ^3
4/8 sharp:   ^4
5/8 sharp:   ^5
6/8 sharp:   ^6
full sharp:   ^
1/8 flat:    _1
2/8 flat:    _2
3/8 flat:    _3
4/8 flat:    _4
5/8 flat:    _5
6/8 flat:    _6
full flat:    _


Wouldn't that be easier?

Your example would be _1A (Accidentals come before the
base note).

Let me know what you think.

BTW: Is there no 7/8 sharp or flat? do double
accidentals occur in microtonal notation?


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---

4/8 sharp IS a full sharp (as you know, the reference interval is
always a whole tone). Therefore labeling it ^4 may be a bit misleading,
but it's ok if you can use the symbols alternatively. Other than that,
I like it.

Microtonal notation is mostly used to approximate tonal events that
can't be described with 12 TET (12-tone equal temperament). While a
7/8-tone sharp theoretically exists, one would rather think of it as a
1/8-tone lowering of the tone a whole step above. So, instead of
thinking C 7/8 sharp, think D 1/8 flat.

Regards,

Georg Hajdu

---

Hmmm.... There is a semantic difference between ^d and _e. For
instance, the Cmin scale includes _e, and the EMaj scale includes ^d.   
Under an equal-temperment scale, there is no difference in sound (both
would be 7500 MIDI cents, if I'm interpreting the MIDI cent scale
properly), but musically, they are treated differently in notation and
meaning.

If there is no reason to specify ^7C, on the grounds that it would be
easier to think of _1D, why not go further, and only specify _D, _3D,
_2D, _1D, C, ^1D, ^2D, ^3D, ^D/_E, _3E, etc?

Actually, I could suggest another notation: _#C, where # is a single
digit, means flatting C by that many eighth-tones. For finer control,
_##C, where ## is a pair of digits, means flattening C by that many
cents, or 100ths of a semitone.   ^#C and ^##C have analogous
defintions, but sharpening instead.

The note halfway between E and F could be represented as ^2E, ^50E, _2F,
or _50F. F itself could be ^E, ^4E, ^0F, ^00F, F _8G, or __G (or, if
you really wanted, ^^^D).

From: Buddha Buck

---

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, Georg Hajdu wrote:

> 4/8 sharp IS a full sharp (as you know, the reference interval is
> always a whole tone).

Sorry, I didn't realize that. I thought you were
dividing a regular sharp into 8 pieces. Now I
understand we are actually dealing with eighth-tones.

> Therefore labeling it ^4 may be a bit misleading, but
> it's ok if you can use the symbols alternatively.

It's probably best to allow ^0 to ^8, where '^0' is the
same as '=', '^4' is the same as '^' and '^8' is the
same as '^^'

> Other than that, I like it.

Now the next step. How do these special symbols (^1 ^2
^3 ^5 ^6 and maybe ^7) look---do you have an example?
How do they sound---are it exact eighth-tones?

Are you going to implement this extension yourself?


Groeten,
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---

On Wed, 25 Jun 2003, John Chambers wrote:

> Buddha Buck writes:
> | Georg Hajdu wrote:
> | Actually, I could suggest another notation: _#C, where # is a single
> | digit, means flatting C by that many eighth-tones. For finer control,
> | _##C, where ## is a pair of digits, means flattening C by that many
> | cents, or 100ths of a semitone.   ^#C and ^##C have analogous
> | defintions, but sharpening instead.

> Or, to be consistent with the rest of abc, we could just put a length
> after an accidental. So _2/3A would be an A that is flatted 2/3 of a

The _# notation is already consistent with the rest of
ABC. See, note lengths are always given relative to the
default fraction specified in the L: field. The default
fraction of the _# notation just happens to be an
1/8th.

Wouldn't a resolution of an 1/8th note be sufficient
for musical notation?


Groeten,
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---

I must admit that I like Buddha Buck's idea the best.
I'd like to suggest a small modification in case someone ever needs a
subdivision of the whole tone smaller than 1/8.
1. The step size should be defined in a special field in analogy to the
default fraction specified in the L: field (as Irwin Oppenheim
suggested)
2. _# and _## resp. ^# and ^## should denote step sizes in respect to
the default fraction
3. _### or ^### should denote deviations in cent (with a leading 0).
Example: ^098A.
These deviations should be printed above the notes (without leading 0)
just like chord symbols (this is standard in some microtonal
literature).

Please let me know what you think.

Regards,

Georg

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---

Sorry, what I meant was ratio not step size.
I still think this should defined in a separate line.

I might use an incomplete abc implementation (only the things I really
need) in my own real-time notation program; I'll leave it to others to
integrate Buddha Buck's or my suggestions in their more complete
implementations.

Nevertheless, it would be nice to see whether or not there could some
agreement in the abc community on microtonal notation.

Regards,

Georg

On Thursday, June 26, 2003, at 06:42 PM, I. Oppenheim wrote:

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---

I've read with great attention and interest the last thread about
microtone. Although I'm not an expert in this field, I'm
interested in writing notation for persian music, and playing it
as well.
I regret I haven't worked much on this project (including
transcribing music) recently, but I had a page about what I've
done so far : http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/persian_music.html

I haven't looked for a complicated to set solution, and this way
it's not practical to use. I couldn't program myself a new program
so I've just redefined some %%deco for Abcm2ps and I've recompiled
Abc2midi to play it roughtly.

I've used at that moment the same idea proposed here :

>I think the best solution would be to use the !...!
>symbol notation to add extra symbols to the abc
>language. Something like !sharp1!, !sharp2!, !sharp3!
>etc.

The only advantage is it's backward compatible with old notations.
But it's a pain to write and not really readable (see example
below)

So I've used !koron! and !sori! (koron is for between flat and
full note, while sori is between sharp and full note) for this.
After the note I've put !=! it is for telling Abc2midi that it has
to come back to the normal pitch bend (in order to "close" a note
with this otherwise the rest will be detuned). As I said it's not
fine to use.

I've also set another kind of symbols, for western music (in fact
it's the general symbols for 1/4 tone), it's just !b! and !#! ,
with also the use of !=! for abc2midi. Not better :)

You can have a look at the display here :

X:1
T:Daramad of Shur
L:1/8
Q:1/4=135
M:no
K:C
%%MIDI program 111
d !koron!e !=! g f !koron!e !=! d c _B A G A d2 {c}_B2 {A}G2 |
G A c _B A G F !koron! E !=! D !koron! E !=! F G A c {_B} A2 {G}
F4 |
FFF A2 G2 {F}!koron! EEE !=!G2 F2 {!koron! E !=!} DDDF2 !koron! E2
!=! |


http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/daramad_shur.png

The output from my customed abc2midi, but since it's pitch bend,
it's not nice to hear (there is also a pb of rythm, but it's
because original has some free rythms) :
http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/daramad_shur.mid
and the original :
http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/daramad.mp3

For western music, the other notation I used is here :

http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/ton_plinn_melanie.png

http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/test_breton.pdf

and the outputs :
http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/tonPlinn.mid
http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/tonPlinnMelanie1.mid
http://anamnese.online.fr/iran/tonPlinnMelanie2.mid

I haven't managed to put some of those 1/4 tones in the key
signature.


Some comments on the previous posts :



To make it short, I think too Buddha Buck's notation is the
easiest

>Actually, I could suggest another notation: _#C, where # is a
single
>digit, means flatting C by that many eighth-tones. For finer
control,
>_##C, where ## is a pair of digits, means flattening C by that
many
>cents, or 100ths of a semitone.   ^#C and ^##C have analogous
>defintions, but sharpening instead.

>The note halfway between E and F could be represented as ^2E,
^50E,
>_2F,
>or _50F. F itself could be ^E, ^4E, ^0F, ^00F, F _8G, or __G
(or, if
>you really wanted, ^^^D).

I only suggest something else in addition. It can be somehow
misleading (it could be the same as %%MIDI ratio n m ), but I
know some oriental music (persian music for ex.) can have variants
in 1/4 tone, it's not a fixed 1/4 tone. It can be for ex. 45% or
35% of a half-tone, that depends of some scales and various
parameters I don't really know (I've just find something about it
http://users.rcn.com/christopherchapman/persianintervals.html). If
it appears also in some other trad. music, it could be interesting
to allow to define this ratio in the header, and then use a
general 1/4 tone definition for the notation in a tune, ex ^2G
it'd be quicker to write than ^35G if we can define earlier that
the ratio is 35th of a semitone.
This definition could be for ex :

%%quartertone [note] [ratio for flat] [ration for sharp]

(I suggest this %% notation since there are not that many letters
left, and %% notation is more readable)

So the previous example could be :

X:1
T:Daramad of Shur
L:1/8
Q:1/4=135
M:no
K:C
%%quartertone B 35 50
%%quartertone E 42 55
d _2e g f _2e d c _B A G A d2 {c}_B2 {A}G2 |
G A c _B A G F _2E D _2 E F G A c {_B} A2 {G} F4 |
FFF A2 G2 {F}_2EEE G2 F2 {_2 E } DDDF2 _2E2 |


it'd mean _2B = _35B and ^2B = ^50B (real 1/4 tone) while _2E =
_42E and ^2E (and ^2e as well etc.) = ^55E while default for
example _2A would remain the same (50/50)

This way it's more intelligible to understand how the scale is
constructed (we can see the particular notes in the header)


>Or, to be consistent with the rest of abc, we could just put a
length
>after an accidental. So _2/3A would be an A that is flatted 2/3
of a
>semitone. Similarly ^1/2A, ^/2A and ^/A would be a note
halfway
>between A and ^A.

is also a good idea. Since I'm not a software developper, I
wouldn't mind if all of those ideas would be included in the abc
standard :)
But maybe Buddha Buck's notation would be enough.

>1. The step size should be defined in a special field in analogy
to the
>default fraction specified in the L: field (as Irwin Oppenheim
>suggested)

which fields are left ? Since some software have already used
them, a %% notation could be easier.

>2. _# and _## resp. ^# and ^## should denote step sizes in
respect to
>the default fraction

yes

>3. _### or ^### should denote deviations in cent (with a leading
0).
>Example: ^098A.

I think it's a good idea too, I've heard of cents too in persian
music, but I don't know much about this.

>These deviations should be printed above the notes (without
leading 0)
>just like chord symbols (this is standard in some microtonal
>literature).

good idea too, if it's an option


>Nevertheless, it would be nice to see whether or not there could
some
>agreement in the abc community on microtonal notation.

I think it's the main thing that lacks in abc to be fully
complete.


>Wouldn't a resolution of an 1/8th note be sufficient
>for musical notation?

maybe for most of them, but not for all kind of musics (are there
also 1/50 tones in for ex. chineese or japaneese music ?)
I see also from the software Scala this kind of ratio for persian
music (and even those can differ from a tune to another tune) :

Persian Tar Scale, from Dariush Anooshfar, Internet Tuning List
2/10/94         
17
!
256/243
27/25
9/8
32/27
243/200
81/64
4/3
25/18
36/25
3/2
128/81
81/50
27/16
16/9
729/400
243/128
2/1




>How do these special symbols (^1 ^2
>^3 ^5 ^6 and maybe ^7) look---do you have an example?
>How do they sound---are it exact eighth-tones?

I've spent some time on internet to find some, I enjoyed my tour
(especially on http://www.microtonal.org/music.html), but so far
I've seen nothing related to music with notes and bars, like we
know it.
Some clues here ? http://www.microtonal.co.uk/notakey.htm
There is also this software that handle microtones :
http://www.xs4all.nl/~huygensf/scala/ It looks powerfull and
interesting

Sorry, it was a too long post...

Eric.


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Subj: [abcusers] RE : quarter-tones with abc in abc2midi and abcm2ps
Date: 10/23/02 6:08:20 PM GMT Daylight Time
From: [e-mail] (Forgeot Eric) Sender: [e-mail] Reply-to: [e-mail] To: [e-mail]



About his quartertone notation, I managed to use some postscript
fonts for using in Abcm2ps. I've made also an equivalence for
western music, like the one found in some bretonian songs (I found
it in a CD)

I've upload a pdf with the result if some may be interested :
anamnese.online.fr/abc/quartertone.pdf

the midifile of the scales are :

anamnese.online.fr/abc/midi_quartert.zip

I think it sounds rather bad, not close to the original music
(maybe because it uses the pitchbend function). I'll seek further
if it's possible to do something better.

> using timidity to play the midi file,
>then you can reset the temperament to contain quartertone
>intervals.

Thanks for the tips.
Timidity could be usefull then if I can totally customize the
temperament (not only use quarter-tones).

In fact Persian music can be simplified by using quarter-tones,
but in practice quarter-tones are not used, and the pitch
difference between 2 notes are dependent of the "modes" : for
example seekers made experiences and noticed the traditional
musicians in practice used for a "mode" 33 "savars" between B and
c, and for an other 26.5 savars between B and c (here the savar
is 1/50 of the occidental tone, so 26.5 would be very close to our
B, but 33 would be for 2/3 tone)
I don't know much about all this, I'm still learning)

>I would guess it needs to be sent an event to put things back to
>normal, otherwise MIDI would assume that the pitch is still bent
for
>successive notes.

yes, that's why I was forced to "cheat" in the code by adding
those !=! (or !normal!) after the note to reset the pitchbend.
I'd really like to find a solution to get rid of them.

>I don't know if http://home.planet.nl/~roosp/mt_pitch.html is
right or not
>Sorry if it turns out I'm being stupid, only trying to help and
understand.

thank you ! I don't think this was a stupid answer at all ! :)

>I'm not really a programmer (though I can read a tiny bit of C)
My real

it's exactly the same for me : I can read and make some small
changes, but can't rewrite all or add something new in the
sources.

>The problem with using midi pitchbend is that the number which
represents
>the amount of pitch change is not standardised

oh, it's usefull to know then. I'll do some further comparisons to
know more about it, and if it can be faultly to use the pitchbend
for this purpose then. But if it turns to be standardized at least
on the soundcard, I think it's enough.
Maybe a "finetune" change would be better, if it's possible (but I
can't find it in abc2midi source code).
I think I should study more closely the midi standard.


About the postscript definition (for using with abcm2ps), here are
them :


%%postscript    /sori {    % usage: str x y sori
%%postscript    gsave translate 0.022 dup scale
%%postscript    0 100 translate
%%postscript    newpath
%%postscript    120 327 moveto
%%postscript    105 329 lineto
%%postscript    104 -92 lineto
%%postscript    114 -86.5 113 -91 120 -87 curveto
%%postscript    120 327 lineto
%%postscript    closepath
%%postscript    16 316 moveto
%%postscript    1 318 lineto
%%postscript    0 -103 lineto
%%postscript    11 -97 9 -102 16 -98 curveto
%%postscript    16 316 lineto
%%postscript    closepath
%%postscript    fill
%%postscript    -51 219 moveto
%%postscript    232 127 lineto
%%postscript    -47 -5 lineto
%%postscript    -47 33 lineto
%%postscript    160 123 lineto
%%postscript    -50 183 lineto
%%postscript    -51 219 lineto
%%postscript    closepath
%%postscript    fill
%%postscript    grestore
%%postscript } bdef
%%postscript






%%postscript    /koron {    % usage: str x y koron
%%postscript    gsave translate 0.022 dup scale
%%postscript    0 100 translate
%%postscript    newpath
%%postscript    26 361 moveto
%%postscript    26 228 lineto
%%postscript    174 298 lineto
%%postscript    26 361 lineto
%%postscript    closepath
%%postscript    26 -138 moveto
%%postscript    16 -146 18 -138 0 -145 curveto
%%postscript    0 397 lineto
%%postscript    25 397 lineto
%%postscript    228 300 lineto
%%postscript    26 190 lineto
%%postscript    26 -138 lineto
%%postscript    closepath
%%postscript    fill
%%postscript    grestore
%%postscript } bdef
%%postscript


%%postscript    /quartdiese {    % usage: str x y quartdiese
%%postscript    gsave translate 0.022 dup scale
%%postscript    -100 100 translate
%%postscript    newpath
%%postscript    16 48 moveto
%%postscript    292 72 lineto
%%postscript    292 32 lineto
%%postscript    16 8 lineto
%%postscript    16 48 lineto
%%postscript    closepath
%%postscript    fill
%%postscript    164 -152 moveto
%%postscript    164 -152 lineto
%%postscript    164 397 lineto
%%postscript    138 397 lineto
%%postscript    138 -151 lineto
%%postscript    138 -151 lineto
%%postscript    150 -154 151.333 -163.333 164 -152 curveto
%%postscript    164 -152 lineto
%%postscript    closepath
%%postscript    fill
%%postscript    12 210 moveto
%%postscript    288 234 lineto
%%postscript    288 194 lineto
%%postscript    12 170 lineto
%%postscript    12 210 lineto
%%postscript    closepath
%%postscript    fill
%%postscript    grestore
%%postscript } bdef
%%postscript

%%postscript    /quartbemol {    % usage: str x y quartbemol
%%postscript    gsave translate 0.022 dup scale
%%postscript    -100 100 translate
%%postscript    newpath
%%postscript    10 296 moveto
%%postscript    294 362 lineto
%%postscript    294 332 lineto
%%postscript    14 268 lineto
%%postscript    10 296 lineto
%%postscript    closepath
%%postscript    fill
%%postscript    138 81 moveto
%%postscript    138 397 lineto
%%postscript    164 397 lineto
%%postscript    164 75 lineto
%%postscript    180 91 lineto
%%postscript    184 95 187.333 97.3333 190 98 curveto
%%postscript    198 103 lineto
%%postscript    214 109 lineto
%%postscript    230 111 lineto
%%postscript    250 111 266 105 278 93 curveto
%%postscript    290 81 298 67 302 51 curveto
%%postscript    302 46 lineto
%%postscript    302 31.3333 298 18 290 6 curveto
%%postscript    280 -7 lineto
%%postscript    272.667 -15.6667 264.333 -24.6667 255 -34 curveto
%%postscript    236 -52 lineto
%%postscript    217 -70 lineto
%%postscript    170 -112 lineto
%%postscript    157.333 -123.333 146.667 -136.333 138 -151 curveto
%%postscript    138 81 lineto
%%postscript    closepath
%%postscript    218 -14 moveto
%%postscript    230 14 lineto
%%postscript    232.667 21.3333 234 29.6667 234 39 curveto
%%postscript    234 51 231.667 59.8333 227 65.5 curveto
%%postscript    222.333 71.1667 215.667 74.6667 207 76 curveto
%%postscript    201 76 194 74 186 70 curveto
%%postscript    179.333 65.3333 172 58.6667 164 50 curveto
%%postscript    164 -88 lineto
%%postscript    187.333 -63.3333 205.333 -38.6667 218 -14 curveto
%%postscript    closepath
%%postscript    fill
%%postscript    grestore
%%postscript } bdef
%%postscript


%%deco koron 3 koron 8 0 0
%%deco b 3 quartbemol 8 0 0


%%deco sori 3 sori 8 0 0
%%deco # 3 quartdiese 8 0 0

of course it's possible to made many changes for conveniance.

An example of use :

X:4
T:Dastgâh-e Esfahân (ancien)
M:none
L:1/4
Q:1/4=290
K:C
%%MIDI program 111
G A _B c d !koron! e !=! !sori!f !=! g |

Subject: RE: Using Quarter tones
From: pavane
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 02:05 PM

Thanks Mick. It all looks a bit speculative here, with a wide variety of suggestions to consider.

Subject: RE: Using Quarter tones
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 04:14 PM

As so often on the abc users' list there is much discussion followed by long silences. In the (last?) abc 2.0 Draft Standard the end of the document says:

End of draft. Features still missing are, at least: repeated tuplets, octava indications, optional accidentals/slurs, microtonal accidentals, tabulatures, guitar chords diagrams, Gregorian chant, ...

(my bold!).

You can of course make use of the !..! and redefinition features to make your own accidentals and hope that at some time in the future you can replace them with some standard version.

Mick

Subject: RE: Using Quarter tones
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 04 - 09:06 PM

Excuse my ignorance, but can the average human ear actually distinguish quarter tones, etc?

Subject: RE: Using Quarter tones
From: pavane
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 02:10 AM

Probably not, which is why so many current singers get away with singing flat!

Subject: RE: Using Quarter tones
From: Mary Humphreys
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 03:52 AM

Try listening to Joseph Taylor on the Grainger wax cylinder recordings. Died for Love, for example. Or Phil Tanner in the Gower Wassail - the chorus particularly.
There is nothing new about quarter tones in English ( & Welsh ) traditional singing. It just tends to get flattened out by current singers who are only used to the traditional Western scales.
Mary Humphreys

Subject: RE: Using Quarter tones
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 05:46 AM

The human ear can easily distinguish quarter tones. Some 20th century composers have composed in microtonal music (Partch uses a scale of 43 tones as opposed to the usual Western 12). In Western tradition the modern temperament wasn't always used and there could be a significant difference between G# and Ab for instance in earlier times. But in modern Western music we have standardised semitones and you automatically translate slightly sharp or flat notes to the notes you're expecting. (String players and singers tend not to realise notes at their exact equal temperament but do adjust them. I seem to remember some research that shows that this is perceived as sounding better than exact equal temperament realisation).

If you want to try and hear quarter tones to see if you can do it, get a guitarist to bend a note on a string for you. They can easily bend it a quarter tone sharp and you'll hear the difference between that and the note at the next fret. (A whistle player can do something similar for you bending the note).

The current Western scale is not the only one is use and you find all kinds of other scales around the world with intervals that don't correspond to the tones and semitones of current use. And as Mary says you only have to listen to some of the traditional recordings to hear how quarter tones have (and still are) in use in English traditional music.

Mick

Subject: RE: Using Quarter tones
From: pavane
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 07:47 AM

Well, yes perfect tuning does sound better, unless you wander into a different key. Equal temperament is a compromise, only necessary if you want to modulate to other keys.

Perfect tuning gives perfect harmonies, equal temperament doesn't

For example, a perfect 5th should be a ratio of 3:2, or 1.5, but equal temperament it turns out to be 1.495-ish. This can give rise to 'beat notes' (like the ones a guitarist listens and eliminates to when tuning)

Subject: RE: Using Quarter tones
From: Pied Piper
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 08:09 AM

It would be more useful to me, to have the ability to define notes as their frequency ratios as these are the basses of scales not an arbitrarily divided octave of however many equally tempered intervals.
Quartertones would get closer than 12TET, but the real thing would be great.

PP

Subject: RE: Using Quarter tones
From: Pied Piper
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 08:19 AM

For example GHB seventh note 7/4 ratio = 969 cents, nearest available 48TET 950 or 975.
This ratio is a perfect harmonic seventh chord with the Drones.

John S

Subject: RE: Using Quarter tones
From: pavane
Date: 24 Jun 04 - 08:30 AM

Using Note Styles in HARMONY, you can define the scale however you want, but you would need to experiment to find the exact pitch wheel settings you need for each note.

Let me know if it helps