BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman

Subject: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: GUEST,Sandi
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 05:02 PM

I've just finished reading "Burned Alive: A Victim of the Law of Men," by Souad, an incredibly brave Palestinian woman who survived an attempted honor killing by her own family. 6,000 Muslim women are put to death in honor killings by their families each year.

The book should be read by anyone who wants or needs to understand Palestinian and Muslim societies and the precarious roles of women in those societies.

Souad's story from the Telegraph.

Souad's book at Amazon

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 05:21 PM

Burning women alive is also a very big problem in India. Only there, it's usually because the husband wants a new wife with a new dowry. What do you think should be done about these problems, GUEST,Sandi?

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 05:31 PM

Dear God almighty, what a terrible situation to live in. How insane. Thanks, Sandi, for the link. The article alone is enough to make you shake for a week.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 08:08 PM

Here's an article that discusses some of the measures that the Palestinians (Palestinian women, in particular, but also some men) were taking to try to help change this situation, and the status of women generally, as of 1998. I don't know if these initiatives have been able to continue since the virtual distruction of the civil infrastructures of the West Bank and Gaza by the Israeli government in the last few years. I'll do some digging around and see if I can find any signs of life still for these organizations.

http://www.merip.org/mer/mer206/ruggi.htm

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 08:45 PM

With genital mutilation, honor killings, and the killings of brides because their doweries were considered inadequate -- not to mention the physical abuse of women in the "First World" -- one wonders where Love has gone.

If you want courage, look here.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 08:52 PM

This is what I found for the Women's Center for Legal Aid and Counseling, which appears to be still intact:

"Mission Statement

Our mission is to contribute to the rectification of the long-standing neglect of women's human rights in Palestinian society. We strive to provide support and guidance to Palestinian women whose human rights and rights under the law have been violated. We defend women's rights as human rights and seek to promote the development of a social, political and legal order in which human rights are well respected and women's rights are well protected.

Inspiration

Over centuries the denial of self-determination has seriously limited the ability of Palestinian women to mobilize institutionally and politically to exercise and protect their fundamental human rights. Having taken note of the difficulties confronting the women's movement during and following struggles for national liberation elsewhere in the world, the founders of theWomen's Centre for Legal Aid and Counselling(WCLAC), resolved to focus their efforts on preventing a similar neglect and erosion of the position of women in Palestinian society as it wages its own struggle for liberation. Further, as Palestinians continue to work toward a just political and economic future, we believe that women, who represent 52 per cent of the population, should be present at the negotiating table.

Hopes and Challenges

Traditional leaders and groups resist the promotion of women's human rights by stressing local cultural specificity and national liberation. This is a condition created out of the fear of globalization, continuous Israeli occupation, and intensive assault. The resistance to these external elements allows for the continued subordination and isolation of women and the women's movement. The WCLAC challenges this tendency and is determined to place the issue of gender equality and women's participation in decision-making at the forefront of the national agenda. The WCLAC hopes for the development of democratic Palestinian social and political institutions that promote human dignity irrespective of creed, race, religion, and gender, that are based on the rule of law."


This is some of what Maha Abu-Dayyeh Shamas, director of the WCLAC had to say about how the center is adapting to the ongoing situation for Palestinians as of January, 2003:

"We have now entered the third year of the Second Palestinian Intifada, a low-level war in which killing under the pretext of rooting out "suspected terrorists" - more recently known as "militants" - have become daily occurrences. When it comes to Palestinian lives, it seems that the Israeli military believes it has a license to kill. Israeli crimes of war are camouflaged under creative terminology, in an attempt to legitimise inhuman acts and to avoid accountability. Stuck in a perpetual game of Russian roulette, our society has dug in our collective heels and tried to go on with life, despite encountering death at every turn and sensing its presence deep within our midst.

For most of us, going on with our lives necessitates daily contact - and hence friction - with Israeli soldiers. Their presence is ubiquitous. Troops circle our towns and neighbourhoods in their tanks and armoured personnel carriers, directing their flechette rockets (banned under international law) at our homes and drawing civilians into the scope of their carefully aimed, fully loaded machine guns. All Palestinian males between the ages of 14-50 are potential targets for killing. If not killed, they can expect a good beating and humiliation by the bored, teenaged soldiers manning the checkpoints. Getting to school or college has become a life-threatening endeavour for our young adults.

Meanwhile, Palestinian women are forced to make the impossible choice between allowing their men to go out and earn a living or keeping them at home in the hope that they will be safe. With the rise in the number of men staying at home due to fear and unemployment, Palestinian women have had to cope with increased domestic friction and the attendant problems which inevitably arise. On top of these concerns, Palestinian women have become direct targets for hostage taking, imprisonment and torture just because they happen to be a relative of a person sought by Israeli authorities.

In this atmosphere of military excess and wanton disregard for civilian safety, the Women's Centre for Legal Aid and Counselling (WCLAC) has begun to analyse the Intifada in terms of the legal standards governing Israel's occupation, its use of force and exercise of effective control, and the Palestinian resistance to Israel's unlawful policies and practices, and Palestinian efforts to end Israel's occupation. The rule of law is one of the principal aims of our mission, and it is something that is severely lacking in the world's understanding of the ongoing conflict...

...The status and roles of women in armed conflict has become a main theme that we have incorporated into the Centre's program of activities. At the same time, we have maintained our core activities, including the provision of essential legal and social work services to needy women, and our engagement in policy-oriented research, human rights training, and lobbying on behalf of Palestinian women. The Centre is planning on incorporating women's human rights as a central component of our work on women's roles in conflict and conflict resolution.

This is a new direction for us, and one which is absolutely necessary in light of the ongoing crisis that is unlikely to be resolved in the foreseeable future. Given the existent power imbalance, the work of organisations such as WCLAC is critical to ensure that women remain central players in shaping their own environment and determining their own destiny. As women, we must not allow our future to be imposed by others."

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 08:58 PM

And let's not forget the sex slave trade that is flourishing in pretty much all of the developed countries of "the West" as well as in third world countries. I think that is a tragedy the proportions of which are no less great than what you have listed, Rapaire.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: John Hindsill
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 08:58 PM

How very CarolC of CarolC to deflect any criticism of Palestinians.
I am willing to bet that had GUEST,Sandi written that Indian women are burned by their husband's families, CarolC would have pointed out similar atrocities in the Palestine Authority territory.. Yeah. Sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: Rapparee
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 09:06 PM

CarolC, I'm well aware of the sex slave trade -- and the slave trade in general. I'm also aware of the trade in children for sexual abuse, and the trade in "immigrants", whether for sweat shops or anything else. None of this makes me proud to be living in a "developed" country -- all I can do is assist however I can those who are trying to stop these atrocities.

But Souad's story makes it evident that such changes are going to have to go very deep indeed if this evil is going to be uprooted. It's going to require a fundamental change in the thinking of a people, thinking that goes back centuries -- and not just to stop "honor killings."

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 09:11 PM

No, in the Palestinian Authority territories, it is suspected collaborators that are, without trial, "tired", ie, have a burning car tire placed around them.



But this not point. I think that the intent of the thread is to discuss the treatment of women in several cultures. Should we try to inpose our standards of behaviour on another culture?

I think so, but it seems to me that the majority of those posting here have always advocated a policy of non-interference. Perhaps some others can address this.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 10:21 PM

Interesting comment, John Hindsill. I thought this thread was about women's rights. I guess you think this is a "why we hate the Palestinians" thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 10:23 PM

How very sexist of you, by the way, Mr. Hindsill. When was the last time you beat your wife?

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 10:31 PM

Here's some information about the Women's Empowerment Project. I don't see any date-specific information after 2002 in the site, so I don't know if it's still viable.

Women's Empowerment Project

Wep Strategies

Objectives

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 11:05 PM

I couldn't find any mention of the Palestinian Women's Working Society more recent than 1999. This is what I found from that time period:

Palestinian Women's Network

Here's the site for the Women's Affairs Technical Committee (WATC). It looks like it is current and still viable:

http://www.nonprofitnet.ca/wao/wao.php?show&967

I couldn't find any current information for the Al-Amam hotline.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 11:11 PM

all I can do is assist however I can those who are trying to stop these atrocities

It does my heart good to see these words in your post, Rapaire.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: Metchosin
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 11:47 PM

I'm not an apologist for fundamentalist Muslim practices and attitudes regarding women, but seems to me, we are not long out of the dark ages ourselves.

Just over a hundred years ago, my husband's grandmother was stoned out of village in Scotland, after being harshly judged for a sexual indiscretion, by the good God fearing people of the time.

The stoning caused permanent damage to her left eye and resulted in a noticeable scar and nerve damage to her eyelid. Mind you, she was a nasty piece of work and some in Canada might have faired better, had she not darkened these shores.

However, when I see stuff about stoning, I'm not so smug as to think that we are long enlightened, regarding some quite barbarous behavior directed specifically at women, which was accepted and sanctioned by those of the mainstream.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: mg
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 11:54 PM

I have no problems whatsoever imposing certain values on people. There are immense gray areas of course, but that is not one of them.

Now, there are various charities that you can contribute to to help combat some of the problems there. I am not going to get into recommending them because of all the obvious problems. Or maybe I will do the best I can...Children International is a good one, to the best of my knowledge. And don't forget the playground project. Just a few dollars here and there will help.

mg

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jun 04 - 11:58 PM

The question is not whether we are any "better", but whether we should do something about it.If only the angels are allowed to attempt good works, then there will be no progress at all.

CarolC, I think that most, if not all, of us agree with Rapaire about this. There may be some debate on the best way to accomplish things: This does not mean that someone who does not agree with you about the method is against the goal that you seek.

That said, John Hindsull, can we plase keep this on the plight of women,, and not on the individual political viewpoints we each have?

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: GUEST,Sandi
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 12:41 AM

Well, CarolC, until I read Souad's book, I didn't believe in the death penalty. But now, I'd have no hesitation on imposing it on anyone who participates in honor killings.

Unfortunately, the authorities in most Muslim country look the other way when honor killings occur (and you can't blame the Israelis for that). In Saudi Arabia, a petty thief could be punished by having his hand amputated, but a father, brother or husband who commits an honor killing will not even face charges.

The real problem is that the tradition in Muslim societies is that women are virtually the property of men. Feminism is still virtually unheard of, even for Muslims who are not fundamentalist.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: John Hindsill
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 12:52 AM

CarolC and beardedbruce:
Let me see, the original thread referred specifically to Palestinean, by a Palestinean woman. I was refering to your first response. When I consider the validity and intention of a fellow (or sister) poster's comments, I consider the body of work. CarolC's responses to my comment were her usual non-sequiters. I just call 'em as I see 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 12:56 AM

John,

I do not disagree with the content of your post- just that this subject is serious enough, and deserving enough, to remain on-topic, and not degenerate into the usual Left/Right sniping. CarolC and I do not see eye- to eye on much- but I do not think that the topic shoould be ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:03 AM

Some very convoluted arguments here. I'm getting a bit confused. Is patriarchal barbarity in India caused by the Israeli goverment? And if not, why not?

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 10:39 AM

Is patriarchal barbarity in India caused by the Israeli goverment? And if not, why not?

Obviously not. It is caused by men. Just as the patriarchal barbarity among Palestinians is caused by men. And the abuse of women in the "civilized West" is caused by men. And the sex slave trade in almost every country is caused by men. When I read about brutality or atrocities committed against women by men, I don't think to myself, that man is a Palestinian man, or a Cornish man, etc. I think, that brutality/atrocity is being committed by a man. I don't care what his nationality, race, ethnic origins, or religion is. Because as a woman, I know that these kinds of things are being committed against women by men of all nationalities, races, ethnic origins, and religions.

John Hindsill, if you use the issue of women's rights selectively in order to promote a political agenda, or to promote hatred towards a particular group of people, you don't help to alleviate the suffering of the women in question... you actually increase it. This makes you just as bad as the people who are brutalizing these women in their own countries.

If either of you; greg or John, really cared about the issue of women's rights, you wouldn't be trying to make distinctions between atrocities committed against one group of women over others. For those of us who are women, all acts of brutality committed against us are horrific.

And GUEST,Sandi, the problem isn't about Muslim society. Honor killings are only one of the many, many ways that women are brutalized by the men of various cultures and societies all over the world. You don't solve the problem by selectively using one form of brutality to score political points against only one category of men who brutalize women. What you do is to recognize that this is a global problem. And then... and this is a VERY important point... you listen to what the women in question have to say about what they want done to correct the problem. This is why I have posted the links to some of the women's organizations in the West Bank and Gaza, and included some of what they have to say.

It is very patriarchal to decide for these women what the solutions should be to the problems they face without taking into consideration what they would want to have happen themselves. Which leads me to suspect that you, GUEST,Sandi, are really a man and not a woman.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: GUEST,Sandi
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 12:34 PM

CarolC,

First you say, "What do you think should be done about these problems, GUEST,Sandi?"

So I answered your question.

Then you say, "It is very patriarchal to decide for these women what the solutions should be to the problems they face without taking into consideration what they would want to have happen themselves. Which leads me to suspect that you, GUEST,Sandi, are really a man and not a woman."

I guess no one will ever be allowed to win an argument with you.

Your suspicions lead me to the conclusion that you're not as smart as you think you are. Furthermore, my response was colored by the fact that I've read Souad's book, something you, obviously, have not bothered to do.

My response was based on her opinions about those who commit honor killings, and on problems within Muslim societies.

According to Souad, honor killing is specifically tolerated in Muslim societies. It is all too common, she said, among Muslim Palestinians
but unheard of among Christian Palestinians.

She also pointed out that there is one country in the Middle East that does prosecute and punish honor killers. That country is Israel. And bear in mind, Souad says that she was raised to hate Israel and all Israelis.

I don't know why you feel that it's important to deflect criticism away from Muslims. According to Souad, a practicing Musilim, it is specifically a Muslim problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 12:44 PM

So, the Israelis are to blame for the Palestinian men's atrocities, but the Indian and Cornish men are to blame for their own actions? Shouldnt the Pakistanis and the English be brought into the equation? It's getting weirder by the minute. Why not just blame the Palestinians for what they do as well, it will save blowing your logic circuits.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: GUEST,Sandi
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 12:51 PM

One more thing CarolC. According to Souad, the custom of honor killing has been tolerated by Muslim societies for many centuries and has been handed down as a norm from generation to generation. It has nothing to do with the relatively recent conflict between Israel and the Palestinians and is a factor in Muslim countries far removed from Israel.

Your introduction of the Israel-Palestine conflict says absolutely nothing about honor killing and much about your own prejudice.

I've now said all that I ever will to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 01:43 PM

greg stephens, I have never said or even suggested that Israel is "responsible" for the practice of "honor" killings among Palestinians. You said that. What I said is that the efforts on the part of Palestinian women, and on the part of the official sectors in the Occupied Territories to begin to solve this problem have been severely hindered by the government of Israel, and this is the truth. If we are sincere in wanting this practice to end, what we need to do is to support the efforts at bringing an end to this practice, rather than to undermine them. Anything else is pure hypocrisy.

GUEST,Sandi, I have said this on another thread, and I'll repeat it here. The subject of brutalization of women is a very delicate and complicated one. For instance, the practice of "female genital mutilation". My visceral instinct is to hate the people who would do such a thing to women. And I've noticed that some people try to use this practice as a way of spreading hatered towards Muslims under the rubric that this is a Muslim practice. The problem is that it is not a specifically Muslim practice. Non-Muslims practice it, and many Muslims do not practice it.

So for me to buy into this attempt to get me to hate Muslims for practicing this atrocity, I don't help the women against whom it is practiced, and, in fact, I make their situation worse. I heard some women from countries where this is practiced being interviewed. They said that they don't want people to stigmatize their society for practicing this thing. And they don't even like people using the term "genital mutilization". This is not because they think the practice is acceptable, but because in stigmatizing the society in which this takes place, the women who suffer the most from this practice also become stigmatized.

And this is the same with the subject you have introduced in this thread. It is a form brutalization of women, in this case, one that is committed by some Muslims. There are many other forms of brutalization of women that are committed by other people. When you stigmatize Muslims for the fact that some members of that religion brutalize women, you create the false impression that these brutalized women are different from all other brutalized women, and you further stigmatize them.

And on top of all of that, when you promote hatred towards Muslims, you help political entities who have agendas that are not in any way concerned with women's rights to commit further atrocities against those very same women. And to kill their loved ones. So you are not really helping them by doing things that can serve to single out only certain people and societies for this kind of scrutiny. It's the most vulnerable people in a society who suffer the most from this kind of thing.

If you would take the time to read what some other Palestinian women have to say about what they want in the links I have posted, you will see what they, themselves would like to see happen to solve this problem in their society. The idea is to help nurture a better attitude and better conditions for women within the culture rather than to further brutalize an already brutalized group of people.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: Grab
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:15 PM

CarolC, you say "It is caused by men."

Let's be more specific here. Honour killing is caused by men coming from exclusively Muslim societies. This is not to indict the Muslim religion or to say that all Muslims believe in this; rather, it is saying that men from particular backgrounds around the world believe in honour killings, and they happen to be in a society where Islam is the major religion. The religion is the excuse for the society's actions, not the other way around.

Please understand, this is NOT a criticism of Palestinian society because of what it is, because it is Palestinian, or Muslim, or Arab. It is a criticism of Palestinian society because of what it DOES. It is also not a criticism of men or women, since it is not uncommon that women (particularly older women) support the status quo (to go off-topic for a moment, genital mutilation is mandated and administered by women to women). Sometimes the women commit these acts themselves - the Indian government has made it a criminal act for women to throw themselves on their husband's funeral pyre, but it does still happen, and at no-one's volition but that woman's.

Honour killing is not a global problem in the sense that all nations commit it - you will have to try *very* hard to find an honour killing amongst indigenous Europeans, or amongst Americans whose families have been in the country for several generations. But it certainly *is* a global problem in the sense that there are a number of separate societies in which honour killings are tolerated, some of them Muslim, some of them not. The base problem in all of them, I agree, is the same though - women are not valued as people.

The path for all these societies to realise that failing and correct it will undoubtedly take time, and it will take work by the rest of the world which does believe in women's rights. What you say you don't accept though is that since every society is different, the solution for each will undoubtedly be different. I really can't see how you've reached that conclusion. In Africa, for example, the biggest problem is lack of education, so charities are trying to foster attention to basic human and gender rights at the same time as educating the people (including teaching women things like birth control to enable them to control their own destinies). Breaking the cycle in Africa could be as simple as making women well-educated so they are a valued resource in the community. India, Palestine, Saudi Arabia and so on have plenty of opportunities for education though, but they have an entrenched, wealthy, patriarchal society which prevents criticism of the leaders. But each of these is different again: India is relatively open to new ideas, and in any case is multicultural so Muslim women can see how Hindi women behave and see that submission isn't compulsory; Palestine is under siege from Israel, and women's rights are there considered a secondary issue to having any human rights at all; and Saudi has all the oil so no Western country can criticise without being threatened with their energy supply being cut off. A "global" approach with the US/UN/Britain/whoever dictating policy by force of arms or money is doomed to fail; the women on the ground whose organisations you link to are getting on with changing their little corner of society, and will likely succeed. Your "global" approach is, to use your own words, patriarchal (did you mean patronising?), pays no heed to the actual experiences of these women, and quite simply is exactly what you yourself are railing against here.

You say that you don't see honour killings (or any other form of abuse) being committed by a particular man; rather you see it as typical of the acts of men in oppressing women. I'm sorry, but I can't read that first paragraph of your last post without interpreting it as saying "all men are rapists and wife-beaters" - it really is stereotyping the male gender that offensively. I don't deny that some men are rapists and abusers, and as a man, I find the idea that men would do this to women nothing short of disgusting. I don't necessarily agree with Sandi in wanting them killed, but certainly more severely dealt with by the law than currently. Maybe I'm being overly sensitive, but I'm afraid I get upset when I see a post implying that as a man, I'm automatically an abuser...

I also find your post offensive because it implies that no man can feel the same level of sympathy for oppressed women as you do, just because you are a woman. Should I also argue that you have no right to be horrified by the hostages paraded on TV, because they are men, and therefore you cannot understand the feeling of powerlessness, of shame at having to do things you hate to save yourself pain, of terror at knowing these people can do what they like to you? Of course not - these are human beings, and therefore we should both be repelled by the actions of those people. I'm a great supporter of gender equality, and the word "equality" kind of gives away what the meaning should be...

Carol, this is not a post dismissing women's rights, Islamic rights, Palestinian rights, or anything else. It is, very specifically, a post aimed at addressing the issues you've raised with regard to your own opinions. I agree with Bruce - this issue is far too serious for it to be misrepresented in the way you have done.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 03:44 PM

Graham, I think you have misunderstood me on several points. First of all, I have not said, nor am I saying that all men have the kind of mentality that allows brutalization of women. In fact, I know that this is most definitely not the case.

Secondly, I have not said that honor killings are a global problem. I have said that brutalization of women is a global problem. And it is not a problem that is confined to any particular racial, ethnic, or religious groups or societies.

Thirdly, my point is that you don't help brutalized women by promoting hatred of the racial, ethnic, or religious group to which they belong, as we see happening quite a lot here in the US, as well as in Israel.

One thing that you probably will not recognize as a man that a woman could recognise, is when the rights of women are being used in a cynical way to help people promote agendas that do not help the cause of women's rights. This is a misuse of women, just like any other misuse of women. And this is what I am objecting to. We see a lot of this sort of thing here in the US, as well as the use of the issue of human rights to promote agendas that are antithetical to the cause of human rights.

I see a lot of criticism of Muslims for their attitudes toward women and their practices with regard to women in the US media, and among certain individuals here in the Mudcat who seem to have a great big hard-on for promoting hatred of Muslims. But I have yet to see a thread from them on the subject of the sex-slave trade, which is a problem in pretty much all western countries.

Lastly, I'm having difficulty figuring out why you would use the women of India as role models for Muslim women to follow. The culture in India, including the Hindu culture, is every bit as repressive toward women as the Muslim culture. Not necessarily in the exact same ways, but as a matter of degree, there really isn't much difference.

My point has been and still is, that we don't do a service to the women who live in the Muslim cultures that practice this particular form of brutalization of women by singling their cultures out for our hatred, which is what I see happening in the US, as well as here in the Mudcat. People are using the issue of women's rights as an excuse to do things that violate womens rights and that violate human rights. I object very strenuously to this practice.

And here's my criticism of the Mudcat and the people who moderate it... you (Joe Offer and others) say that you delete obviously racist or hate mongering posts, but you never delete out the posts that are racist towards Arabs and Muslims, or that promote hatred towards Arabs and Muslims. Now just why is that I wonder?

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 05:25 PM

...and it appears that "honor" killings are, indeed a big problem among the Hindu of India, and not just a Muslim practice, although there, it appears that men are also sometimes killed and the violations of "honor" have more to do with marrying the wrong people than because of having sex outside of marriage:

http://www.tribuneindia.com/2003/20031128/edit.htm#2

http://cdwlf.blogspot.com/2004/01/honour-killings-on-rise-in-india.html

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 11:32 AM

Ah, well, it had potential to be an interesting discussion on a compassionate topic.

can we plase keep this on the plight of women,, and not on the individual political viewpoints we each have?

In typical Beardedbruce fashion, he offers his crippled world view then suggests everyone else stop offering their world views. "Plight" is about as overused an adjective as I can think of, and to suggest that all women suffer a plight is reductive.

Some cultures treat their women badly, and unfortunately, the women are often complicit in the cruelty because they have been raised to tolerate it. In India there is a growing activist movement among women to try to prevent these burnings from happening. In the Palestinian community, as in Indian communities, the most effective activism will come from within the culture. Finding ways to support women in their growing activism will have the most durable effect. Parsing out the borders and cultures of the abomination from across the seas is a waste of time. Put your money where your mouth by helping women become financially secure. One way is through small loans to set up their own businesses. Microbanking.

But people who live in glass houses are discussing this here at Mudcat. We in Western cultures throw away millions of individuals through prison and homelessness. Mental health care is almost non-existent after Reagan finished trashing the funding and with minimum standards on prison sentences creeping up and the proliferation of three strikes laws many people are thrown away and the key thrown after them. Do you think this is somehow more humane than what is happening elsewhere?

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: mg
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:46 PM

I think I remember reading about the former Queen of Jordan being active in addressing this problem..Queen Noor???? mg

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: mg
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:49 PM

Confirmed. And now Queen Rania, herself a Palestinian, is involved in this cause. See Oprah http://www.oprah.com/tows/pastshows/tows_past_20011005_d.jhtml or do a google search under queen jordan honor killing.



mg

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: mg
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:54 PM

speaking of other Palestinian women, there is a young woman I think in Gaza trying out for the Olympics and has no running shoes, or one ragged pair or something. I imagine by now someone has supplied her, but sometimes a little can go a long way. Sorry to change the subject. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: mg
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:59 PM

here's about the runner..I guess others need running shoes too..anyone have extras?

mg http://www.abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/World/palestinian_olympian_040620.html

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 02:35 PM

Clickies for Mary's links:

Queen Rania

Olympic Hope

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:53 PM

Hi Everyone! Just thought that I would pop in on this!

I've been counting, and this is exactly the 1 millionth time Carol C. has tapped danced her way through a pro Palestinian arguement. Seems like everytime there is one, more and more people discover how it is so useless to argue with a brick wall that obsesses over he own delusional vision of the world especially justifying Islamic fanaticism.

Carol C., maybe you are the one who really is a man. Abdul? Mohammad? Ali-Al Douche Bag? Do you answer to any of those names?

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 05:01 PM

Hello Martin. I see you too.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 09:35 PM

Good. Big Deal. So What. Who cares.

Please reply with your usual 6 or 7 links you researched on the topic that probably no one reads.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 10:12 PM

Are CarolC and Martin Gibson really Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde?

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 11:06 PM

That would be Dr. Jekyll and Ms Hyde to you, GUEST.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 11:21 PM

Here's a link for you, Martin. Enjoy...

Brit Tzedek v'Shalom

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 06:51 AM

"Plight" is about as overused an adjective as I can think of (29 Jun 04 - 11:32 AM )
Another pearl of wisdom from the plight GUEST.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: harpgirl
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 12:40 PM

I have been following this thread Carol and felt at first as though I wanted to come in and help you argue with these boneheads butthen I thought Sandi was probably "Loopie Rocks" at work in yet another of his personas and decided against it. Anyway, you seem to be holding your own!!!! It was nice to meet you at the Folk Festival. Come down and visit sometime and we'll go spring swimming!I visited Blue Springs last weekend and it was a fine time... harpy

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 01:05 PM

It was nice to meet you too, harpgirl. Thanks for the invite.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 05:10 PM

I didn't read it Carol C.

No time for your bull-shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Souad: a brave Palestinian woman
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 06:21 PM

Yeah sure.