BS: Good Luck Iraq

Subject: BS:Good Luck Iraq
From: greg stephens
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 01:09 PM

A lot of my friends and colleagues are from iraq, so for many years I have been hearing a lot about the terrible problems in that country, for ages caused by the dreadful Saddam, and then in the last year by the turmoil which removing him gave rise to. There is a chance now of something good happening, though a lot of people are going to try and visit mayhem on the poor country. Anyway, this thread is to wish the Iraqis well; something new has happened to day. let's hope it leads to something permanent.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: mg
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 01:39 PM

Here's hoping. We should rejoice today, painful as we all know the future could be. But it might also be wonderful. I think we will look back and wonder how we could have doubted this was the right thing to do. I hope no one begrudges them their freedom. And like all freedom, there has been a terrible price we and they paid, and will in days to come. But like they say, now that the bell of freedom has been rung, you can't unring it. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: mack/misophist
Date: 28 Jun 04 - 11:48 PM

I do not think their troubles are over. Though now, at least, they will be their own. No great solace to them, I'm sure.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: DougR
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 01:27 AM

Greg: thanks for posting this thread. I hope we all wish the Iraqi people well. They certainly have endured hardships for the last thirty years that few of us can fully understand. God speed to them, I say.

Of course, as is usual on the Mudcat, I'm sure, Greg, that this thread will attract a large number of naysayers. So be it, I say. I also say, for the Iraqis, "let freedom ring"!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 02:00 AM

DougR, don't be nasty. There isn't a single one on this Cat that does NOT wish Iraq well and it doesn't become anyone to suggest otherwise.

The fact that some of us foresee great difficulties on their path does not make us uncompassionate, insensitive or unpatriotic. It may mean that we are more realistic, however.

But with everyone I say: Good luck, Iraq. May cool and wise heads guide your way.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:06 AM

Naysayers?!?! I have not read a single post here, EVER, that did not support and wish well for the Iraqi people. Many of us have, however, said nay to our own government's brutal victimization of the Iraqi people. Yes, I said victimization. I just came from Farenheit 9/11. I sat in my seat while the ushers cleaned up, then watched it again. I defy anyone to watch this movie, and still support our invasion of Iraq. And before you accuse me of simply being "politically biased", I've listen to Rush and Sean and Bill nearly every day -- totalling hundreds, if not thousands, of hours -- for the last 13 or so years (and I'm a registered Republican willing to provide the proof if you think I'm blowing smoke). So if I ask that you commit 2 to listening to the other side, is that unreasonable? I wish nothing but peace and happiness for Iraq. I do not believe that our country's actions have been the best means to achieve this, but that doesn't mean I won't be wishing well to the Iraqi mothers, grandmothers, fathers, uncles, and especially children that I saw in this movie (in a fashion that has NEVER been shown on US television). I promise, I'll read an Ann Coulter book for every war supporter who writes to me and says they have gone to this movie.

GOOD LUCK IRAQ!

AS SALAAM ALEICHUM!

(and I believe we owe you about 20 billion dollars)

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:22 AM

DougR: dont stir it up. If naysayers arrive, well that sort of thing happens. No point in reacting till they do. I dont think there are quite as many naysayers as you believe, actually Doug. I grant you that there are a lot of people with a huge emotional investmet in the wished-for electoral defeat of George Bush, and this mindset makes them predict strongly that things will go terribly wrong in Iraq, because GB is bad and/or stupid. And that does make them react with what looks uncommonly like glee when things do go wrong in Iraq( people saying "I told you so" are never a pretty sight).
    And I grant you, that may make you think they are hoping(literally) for atrocities etc. But I'm not sure if that is fair, at least in most cases. Winston Churchill, by all accounts, was pretty gleeful when he heard the news of Pearl Harbour. Not because he wished Americans to be bombed, but because he realised in that moment that Britain would at last get a massive ally in the war against Hitler. It would be a mistake to attribute wicked motives to him in that very natural elation, and I think you should be more tolerant of anti-Bush liberals behaving in what seems (I grant you) a very callous way in their reaction to Iraqi suffering.
   So let us hope, and wish for the best, while recognising there is pretty much bound to be a lot of blood along the way yet. People are trying to unravel decades of disastrous bloody mayhem in Iraq(decades, not a year), and it will take a while to stabilise, obviously. Things don't just happen, they have to be helped to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:40 AM

It's not glee. It's despair. You spin it as glee because you want us to be mindless, politically-driven "Bush Haters". Trust me, I have found little glee in world events for the past several years. I take zero zilch nada glee in having a leader who is bad, but not necessarily stupid.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:48 AM

TIA: if you would read what what I said, I am not a Bush supporter, and I didnt say it was glee. I was pointing out that what may look like glee in the face of disaster is actually something else...which is a little different, dont you think? Bush haters will of course be gleeful when he is defeated, but that is a different issue.
   I really hope this thread could be used for people who have some positive message for the people of Iraq (hint hint...I am going to show all the posts to Iraqi friends).

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 09:27 AM

You're right - apologies.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 09:39 AM

I think that all of us, from all parts of the political spectrum, wish nothing but the best for the Iraqi people. We may differ on what we consider that to be, or how to obtain it, but we should agree that this is a chance for something good to happen- not a certainty, but a chance.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Amos
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 10:11 AM

I certainly add my voice to the well-wishes for the Iraqi poeple -- those of them who have a sense of decency and civil restraint, which is most of them.

I think it would be wonderful if we transferred power to them. Like weapons of mass destruction in the grip of a psychotic dictator, I think the picture of sovereignity is being dramatically inflated for the benefit of the administration's purposes. Whatever they are.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 02:36 PM

Good comment, Amos. Greg--do you have any friends who are NOT Iraqis, Pakistanis, or moslems of one or other nationality? Must be some big crowd!
And, yes---good luck, Iraq. You need it.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 02:48 PM

Boab: a lot of my music work is with refugees, and has been for some years. So yes, I do know a lot of Iraqi and Afghan people(and many other nationalities as well).It has proved a wonderful education to me, in music as in other things.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 02:49 PM

Yes, they will need it. Because nothing changed on the day of the handover.

To think the way the US proconsul just snuck out the back door is A Good Thing, is akin to thinking it is Good News For Alcoholics that prickly pears have now been scientifically proven to lessen a hangover.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 02:53 PM

Remember--the Chinese saying "may you live in interesting times" is a curse, not a blessing.

Let there be no mistake: this colossal failure of American foreign policy has left the Iraqis living in even more interesting times than they were under Saddam. At least under Saddam, they could pretend to know what the rules of the game were.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 04:42 PM

Amos said

"I certainly add my voice to the well-wishes for the Iraqi poeple -- those of them who have a sense of decency and civil restraint, which is most of them."

Amos, just curious, do you know "most of them?" to substantiate this statement?

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Raedwulf
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 05:09 PM

Perhaps, O Cynical Martin, he's just judging them by basic human nature? Cos, in my experience, most people just want to be left alone to get on with their lives. Neither nationality nor creed, in anything I have ever experienced or read, make a great deal of difference to this simple human trait throughout history. The definition of freedom can vary enormously through time & culture. One man's tyranny is another mans freedom, so to speak. But for the most part, people just want to be left alone.

Family, clan, tribe, is about the usual social loyalties (however you define them), & many people struggle to see beyond family ('family' not necessarily meanining blood relative, BTW). But, for a given definition of 'me', it boils down to leave 'me' alone. The only real difference is how far into the abstract 'me' extends for a given individual...

In every report I have read from Iraq that focuses on their people, rather than on the newsworthy events, the same message comes across.

1) We'd like a reliable electricity supply.

2) We'd like a reliable water supply.

3) We'd like peace so we can get on with our lives...

So I say good luck to Iraq, & bad cess to the peddlers of hate. Whichever culture you think they belong to.

Rædwulf

P.S. Guest - you are a coward. Put a name to your views. There is no Saddam, Uday or Qusay here that will kill you for speaking your mind. Unlike the Iraqi's of years gone by that you seemingly feel so bitter on behalf of!

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 05:41 PM

Raedwulf, do you also think that they want a good Jewish deli so they can send out for a decent pastrami sandwich?

Do you also think that they can separate their religion from their government and run schools for their children that will help them develop their intellect?

I'm not talking hate here.

Are people born fabulously good, bad, or indifferent, and do they rely on what kind of values they are taught?

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Raedwulf
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 05:54 PM

Martin, what the bleeding hell point do you think you are making?

"a good Jewish deli" - WTF are you on about?

Buy a plane ticket to Iraq - I suspect that you'll find that most Muslim/Arab Iraqi's (considering there are Kurds, Christian's & others in melting pot, so the M/A I's are by no means an overwhelming majority) couldn't give a rat's ass about Jew's. They've got too many other far more important things to worry about. Like, oooh at random, a regular supply of clean water & putting food in their children's bellies.

If you can't do better than talk rubbish, I'm not going to waste my time on you. I've seen to many of your posts on this forum. You do not, it seems to me, argue in good faith as a rule, but rather troll to wind people up.

You demand 'proof' from Amos, then post utter bollocks in response to me. Do you *not* think "that they can separate their religion from their government and run schools for their children that will help them develop their intellect"? Because if you don't, I want to see the same "proof" that you demanded of Amos. But I doubt you can produce it!

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: greg stephens
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 06:05 PM

Raedwulf:I dont think you should distinguish Kurds from Moslems, as you did just then. Kurds are Moslems( well most of them are). They think of themselves as different from Arabs, and they are often not as "strict" as more devout Moslems: but many Kurds have told me forcefully they are just as strict in their way, it's just that they regard some so-called Moslem customs as being Arab customs, and nothing to do with religion. Kurds and Arabs are races/nations/ethnic group. whatever term you like.. Islam is a religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Raedwulf
Date: 29 Jun 04 - 06:12 PM

I stand corrected, greg, but ne'ertheless... Do your experiences of refugees in the UK suggest that 'back home' they've got time to care a tinker's cuss about Jews? I've no direct experience, but neither have I ever seen any evidence to suggest so. Which makes me think MG is just shit-stirring, as too many times before...

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 05:47 PM

Raedwuff

Wind you up? My pleasure! It worked!
Please! Cross your legs! Your breath is offensive!

What a dildo you are, big solver of the world's problems. I can't take you seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 05:49 PM

And Raedwuff, using the word "bullocks" is such stupid slang.

300 million people in the U.S will just look at you like you are from another planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Raedwulf
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 06:08 PM

Bullocks, Martin? Oh my, how sad, you can't even read! I said "bollocks", sunshine, not "bullocks".

Bollocks

Just in case you missed it. What you usually post, in other words. As for "wind me up", ROFLMFuckingAO! You must be kidding me. I am so wound up by you, that that's the first time I've ever bothered to respond to you directly. I must be really annoyed with you, suuuure... {Rollseyes}

It's quite probably the last time I'll ever bother with you either. Thank you for confirming that all my prejudices about you turned out to be nothing of the sort. You sad, sad, little individual. You talk rubbish & know less.

Have a nice day.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Jun 04 - 07:07 PM

Well, speaking as one who believed that the "Liberation" of Iraq was the one decent thing that the Shrub has managed since his "unelection" I can only wish the Iraqui people well, and hope that something approaching a working democracy will come out of this.

I may be wrong, but then my views are fashioned by reality rather than invective.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 03:49 AM

YOUR perception of "reality", Gareth!!

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 04:17 PM

Freedom in Iraq will never ring as long as Bush is the bell-ringer.

You can't put a puppet government in place and say it evolved from the will of the Iraqi people. It's offensive to think that Iraqis are too (fill in the blank) to determine their own form of government and that they have to be "helped" by American combat troops. It's the supreme form of supercillious demagoguery.

The Iraqi people will eventually speak and determine what they want anyway and right now what they want is American troops to go home.

They don't want outsiders like Chalabi or for that matter Alawi to call the shots.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 04:31 PM

I don't wish the Iraqi people well. As my hero Cheney would say, Fuck 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 05:40 PM

My sentiments, also.

Hey Raedwulf, you are by far a complete loser.

Bullocks or bollocks, what a stupid, stupid expression by a very lame person. I forgot what you'll never know.

But thanks for responding. I've confirmed what I always figured about you. Your reputation for your stained underpants is well known throughout Chicagoland. wouldn't want to smell your fingers.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Raedwulf
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 06:13 PM

LOL! Was that an attempt at an insult, Martin?

You're a troll, Martin.

Bye, bye, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: GUEST,Sam Hall
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 06:19 PM

And lo! Once again Martin Gibson gurgles up from the sewer with his observations. Gotta put a more effective trap in the drain pipe. He's the best argument I know of for keeping the toilet seat down.

Yank, yank! Now watch Marty react!

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 07:07 PM

Now Raedwulf...You wouldn't expect Martin to recognise BOLLOCKS would you....What with having none of his own!!

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 07:36 PM

I started this thread so I could show it to my Iraqi musician friends. I will not be doing that, for obvious reasons. Some of you people make me sick to my stomach.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: GUEST,attilla the hun's niece
Date: 01 Jul 04 - 07:44 PM

Marty isn't Jewish. He's related to my great great great great great grandfather and he's from Minnesota. He's a fraud, basically! Hey Will!!!! You ain't foolin' me!!! Atty Boo Boo

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 02:45 PM

First of Raedwulf is a liar because he said that he wouldn't respond to me again, and he did, so he has the credibility of someone like O.J. Simpson. I found it humorous. He took the bait. Calling someone a troll when they are out insulted is idiotic. What a crybaby.

As for the other people that I offended, my pleasure. You show how thin your skin is.

akenation, Virtually No one in America knows or cares about a stupid limey slang word like bollocks.

Guest, Attila the Hun's neice, don't let anyone mistake your dick for a flap over your pussy.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 04:45 PM

Martin/Gibson, are you having fun yet?

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 05:04 PM

A blast!

what's for dinner?

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Jul 04 - 06:59 PM

Thats the funniest thing youve posted yet Martin.
I think there might be some redeeming features about you...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 12:51 PM

Well, I really don't care if I entertain any intellectual wannabes. But some threads are worth exterminating!

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 02:10 PM

Interesting word, exterminate.

I wish the people of Iraq the best of luck in every regard.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Nerd
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 02:26 PM

Ha, MG. You're in rare form. But to be fair, I think Raedwulf only said he would "quite probably" not respond again. So he's not really a liar, just poor at predicting the future.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Raedwulf
Date: 03 Jul 04 - 05:06 PM

Half a thank you, Nerd! ;) Yes that is what I said. Interestingly, the OED defines trolling as "posting on the internet intending to provoke a response from the reader by containing errors" {NB: that definition contains a slight paraphrase, but no distortion of meaning. Just in case anyone might wish to accuse me of lying again!}

Insults, even failed ones, don't enter into the argument. I can spot a troll when one turns up, & I'm occasionally guilty of troll-baiting, I confess. I have apologised to Greg for any spoiling I might be guilty of in this thread, but Mr. Gibson's some threads are worth exterminating, in this context, says it all, I think!

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 12:42 PM

Don't think too hard.

You might stain your shorts from the pressure.

As for trolling, you've got it wrong. The troll is the one who is doing the baiting and having a lot of fun acting in this role. Trolls serve a good purpose on the Internet. They can be very entertaining and break up discussions by poster that can only be best described as bullshit, arrogant, self-serving, snobbish, psuedo-intellectual, take themselves way too seriously etc. Kind of like this one.

Yes, Carol C. exterminate is an intersting word, especially to the Orkin Co. They come out pretty regularly to work the trailer, I would think.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 12:45 PM

Nope. Not even once, Martin.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 02:16 PM

That's nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 02:31 PM

Martin, please help me understand how a thread that is started for the purpose of wishing a country and its people well as this one was, would fall into the categories you mention: bullshit, arrogant, self-serving, snobbish, psuedo-intellectual, take themselves way too seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Good Luck Iraq
From: DougR
Date: 04 Jul 04 - 03:26 PM

Greg: hate to say I told you so ...so I won't.

TIA: for another view of the film you are so enraputured with, take a look at this website: moorelies.com

DougR