BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse

Subject: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 07 Aug 04 - 11:31 PM

New York State just passed a law under the leadership of Assembly Speaker, Sheldon Silver, outlawing an unfair biased practice of certain life insurance companies. They were charging higher premiums for applicants who had a history of travelling to Israel in the past. Silver claimed that the fact that people had a PAST history of travelling to Israel, does not put them at a FUTURE risk of doing so.
Any insurance company caught engaging in this practice will pay a hefty fine and will loose their license to sell insurance in NY State.
SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 02:03 AM

I don't get it. Don't you think if someone has been to Israel every year for the last fifteen years, there is a better chance that he will go to Israel this year than a random person who has never been there?

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 07:10 AM

If it's a question of there being an increased risk of getting killed violently in some places than others, shouldn't they just jack up the premiums on Americans who stay home?

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 09:46 AM

Silver claimed that the fact that people had a PAST history of travelling to Israel, does not put them at a FUTURE risk of doing so.

Silver apparantly does not understand the concept of actuarial risk. Insurance companies look at their payouts and the causes of death of their clients to set their risk factors. They set their rates acording to thei risk. If their clients weren't dynging in statistically significant numbers in Israel this would not be an issue. Seems like an easy problem to fix though. Since traveling to Israel is a significant risk then the insurance company can just put a rider on the policy and not pay for deaths and injury incurred while traveling in Israel. Anyone wanting to travel to Israel could just buy insurance for their trip. That's fair for everyone. Why should my insurance rates go up to subsidize some else's penchant for risk?

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 01:06 PM

Jack: The law only pertains to residents on NY State, not Alabama where you live. As far as risk goes, there is a greater danger of being killed in our inner cities by random drive by shootings than in all the terrorist attacks that have taken place so far in Israel. In fact, more people die in automobile accident on USA roads that are killed in terrorist attacks in Israel. The fact that Israel was singled out over countries such as the Sudan, Liberia, & the Ivory Coast where constant civil war and genocide are taking place daily was in fact discriminatory. Also, visits to certain 3rd world nations where the sanitary facilities, and health crisis reach epidemic proportions were not taken into consideration. When was the last time anyone ever contracted Ebola or Typhoid Fever in Israel ? SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 02:06 PM

Rabbi-sol

Insurance companies don't "single out" countries. They look at the number of people who make claims then determine their risk. If they were paying out to people who were traveling to Sudan, the rates for those people would go up. Insurance companies use stats from all over the country to determine rates. So yes, insurance payouts in New York affect me. More importantly, for the sake of fairness, they also affect the vast majority of New Yorkers who don't travel to Israel. The idea is have those who incur the most risk pay for the risk they incur. A Jockey pays higher insurance than a Rabbi. A Rabbi who smokes pays more than one who doesn't. A Rabbi who travels to Israel pays more than one who doesn't. Its only fair.

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 02:12 PM

Insurance companies look at their payouts and the causes of death of their clients to set their risk factors. They set their rates acording to the risk.

That's how it's supposed to be done, but it ain't always true. There's a lot of amateur guesstimates involved, coloured by newspaper headlines and all that. I remember when a couple of IRA bombs in London, and the American tourists would all stay home to get killed in their own significantly more dangerous cities.

Anyway, since most travel insurance policies seem to have clauses excluding injuries caused by acts of war or terrorism already, what's all this about anyway?

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 04:07 PM

I see your point about the discrimination, Rabbi Sol. But it has nothing to do with whether past travel to israel influences the likelihood of future travel there. It has rather to do with whether travel to Israel increases one's risk of death. I would agree that for New Yorkers travel to Israel is probably no more dangerous than travel to Europe, and possibly less dangerous than staying home. I'm not sure how many Americans have been killed in terrorism incidents in Israel, but surely the number is tiny.

McGrath: people's stupidity in not going to London is not in question. The question is, did US life insurance policies impose a penalty for travel to London after a few IRA bombs? I feel certain the answer is no.

By the way, this is life insurance, not travel insurance, so death by terrorism is not excluded.

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 05:59 PM

The whole thing was a conspiracy between the NY State legislature and the Israeli government to raise Jack The Sailor's life insurance premiums, in retaliation for his pro- Palestinian statements on Mudcat. LOL! SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 06:01 PM

About 1970 a friend of mine got charged higher rates on his insurance than the other people he knew. The insurance agent told him it was because he wasn't married to the woman he was living with.
Jon asked "Are unmarried couples a higher risk?"and the agent said, "No, but we try to preserve the status quo."

Well, the status quo done shifted since then, but insurance companies still don't always set rates according to risk.

Frinstance I understand you're generally not insured against flood on your homeowner's insurance, no matter where you live.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 06:06 PM

Strange Rabbi-Sol that statement is just as accurate as this one.

"the fact that people had a PAST history of travelling to Israel, does not put them at a FUTURE risk of doing so."

A PAST history of travelling to Israel, is a very good indication that someone will do so in the future, probably the BEST indication available to an insurance company. I'll bet at least a lot of the people who do so, do so more than once.

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 06:10 PM

So you all are saying that the insurance companies in New York State are conspiring to punish people for traveling to Israel, for no reason related to profit. Funny stuff, funny stuff.

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 06:11 PM

If you are in an area that is generally prone to flooding, you have to purchase Federal Flood Insurance which is only available from the government. Many insurance companies have an exclusionary clause called "an act of God". That is usually their "out" when it comes to denying certain claims. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 06:26 PM

The question is, did US life insurance policies impose a penalty for travel to London after a few IRA bombs? I feel certain the answer is no.

An interesting enough question. I suspect that the answer might actually be "yes", and that might in fact have been a factor in deterring visitors.

.....................

The whole business of selectively adjusting insurance premiums in a minute way to take into account different risks which are imposed on people within a society, because of factors that are often out of their control, strikes me as profoundly anti-social and immoral. And with DNA testing and all that kind of thing it's going to get a lot worse, unless people wake up and call a halt to it.

There are a lot of risks that ought to be spread out among everyone, and vulnerability to unexpected violent deaths are one of them. If the insurance companies think that you can avoid those by staying home, they are just plain nuts - most accidents happen in the home anyway, they always say.

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 10:46 PM

Since 9/11 insurance premium costs have gone through the roof, especially in the New York area. It is not only the risk factor that is driving up these costs. The insurance industry is trying to recoup their loses that were suffered when their investments went sour in a post 9/11 economy. They will think of every excuse to raise premiums and deny coverage. SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Aug 04 - 11:22 PM

So, Rabbi-Sol Are you saying that the insurance companies in New York are trying to pay for 9/11 by fraudlently overcharging people for visiting Israel? Why don't these people just shop around? I can't believe that you are saying that people who visit Israel are more gulible than the general population of New York. I am finding this terribly difficult to believe. One would think that someone with the necessary resources for such travel would be savvy enough to shop for the best rates in insurance. Obviously if there is no significant added risk for traveling there then there would be no shortage companies ready, willing and able to write policies.

I'm sorry that Sheldon Silver and you seem to feel that these people need protection from themselves.

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 03:42 PM

Apparently Sheldon Silver had a lot of people who agreed with him. The Bill he sponsored passed both, the Senate and the Assembly by a unanimous vote, and was signed into law by Governor Pataki. Nobody voted against it. What does that tell you ? SOL ZELLER

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 04:05 PM

Nobody voted against it. What does that tell you? From a disance, I'd hazard a guess that one reason might have been that voting against such a bill could reasonably have been interpreted as being anti-semitic.

If so, indeed it is a pretty good thing if there's a situation where anti-semitism is seen as being political suicide for a politician. Speed the day when all kinds of racism or sectarianism everywhere will be seen as political suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 04:38 PM

It tells me that either this is not an issue of "Abuse" as you assert that it is and that there is more to the story than youhave said or that there is a huge gulf between common sense and politics.

I find you to be quite credible so I am leaning toward the latter.

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:24 PM

There is certainly a gulf between common sense and some of the posts here.

Frinstance, Clint, what does floods being covered on homeowners' insurance have to do with the assessment of risks? For some reason, the structure of the insurance industry developed to treat flood as a separate category, with its own insurance. But you haven't demonstrated that their calculations of the RISK of flood are inaccurate.

As to your "status quo" friend, I think unmarried couples ARE at greater risk...of STDs, among other things.

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 05:50 PM

I think unmarried couples ARE at greater risk.M/I>

Either they are or they aren't - but "I think" in itself is irrelevant. The question is whether, in practice, insurance companies do systematically set aside subjective gut-feeling judgements such as that.

And the bigger question is, what kind of limits need to be imposed on the power of insurance companies to fine-tune their policies in ways which threaten to be very harmful indeed to civil liberties. As genetic technology develops that is increasingly going to be a major issue.

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Nerd
Date: 09 Aug 04 - 08:57 PM

I agree, McGrath. But Clint's example of a thirdhand report of some unspecified company's policy doesn't count either. So we essentially have no relevant evidence from Clint's report. That was my point, not that you all have to accept my suspicion as valid.

Subject: NY Auto insurance abuse
From:
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 08:23 PM

It seems the insurance companies have greased the NY politicians into letting them charge higher premiums people who have fell into financial trouble and recieved a bad credit rating.Example 43 yr old male no moving violations or accidents in the last 20 years paying $3,500.00 for a policy that should be no more that $1,200 and was denied a personal policy by Allstate even though the company he owns and is listed as a driver has been insured with Allstate for over 8 years with no accidents to I have no idea how a credit rating affects your driving ability or is it just that the insurance companies are going for any excuse to rip people off.

How about some feedback

Subject: RE: BS: N.Y. State Halts Insurance Company Abuse
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:58 PM

The charter bus company that I work for has just seen their premiums go up from $20,000 to $50,000 a year per coach, because our buses are parked in Brooklyn, 3 miles from the site of the former World Trade Center. And even at that price, we were very lucky to get a carrier that was willing to write the policy, even though we have a perfect safety record. New York is absolutely the worst market for insurance in the entire nation, without exception. It is tantamount to extortion. SOL ZELLER