Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 09:54 PM

MusicTime creates a midi file which still plays fine. I just can no longer add lyrics or text to the document, which used to work fine before sp2.

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 09:04 PM

Can you take a look at your system information and see what the default settings are for playing or working with music files on your computer? The XP2 service pack may have set it all for Windows Media Player, and it doesn't play well with others. Try setting it so WinMedia Player isn't default.

Sometimes updating a program is a good thing--if you've been using your MusicTime Deluxe from as far back as Win95 you're bound to be pleased with the upgrades they've added to the program since then. (I don't know the program at all, this is just an observation based on my own upgrades of various software programs).

SRS

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 08:55 PM

I finally installed sp2 a few weeks ago and had no problems UNTIL TODAY! I'm not sure the problem is sp2, but it seems likely.

I've been using MusicTime Deluxe for Windows 3.1 and 95 for a few years, and it worked OK on my new Dell with XP until after this Windows update. I haven't used MusicTime in a few months and just tried it today, and I'm pretty sure the only thing different is the Windows update.   The GVOX knowledge data base (sellers of MusicTime) in fact has an entry for my "general protection fault" whenver I try to enter lyrics or text, and says that the problem is running this old version on the newer operating system, and for $69 I can upgrade to a new version of MusicTime. The old version worked fine on the new XP operating system until Service Pack 2!

Running in compatibility mode for 95 doesn't help.

Harrummmph!

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Dec 04 - 04:24 PM

I'll tack this on here rather than start a new thread. It's all related in the end.

---

New Windows Bugs "Critical," Lack Patches
A trio of new and unpatched vulnerabilities in Microsoft Windows were made public on security mailing lists over the weekend.

By Gregg Keizer, TechWeb News, Dec. 27, 2004
URL: http://www.informationweek.com/story/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=56200518

A trio of new and unpatched vulnerabilities in Microsoft Windows were made public on security mailing lists over the weekend, nudging some security vendors to alert users that their systems may be open to attack and hijacking.

The vulnerabilities, first reported by a Chinese group and then posted to the Bugtraq mailing list, are in Windows' LoadImage API function, its animated cursor files, and in the way it handles help files. All of the bugs are as yet unpatched.

All currently-supported versions of Windows -- Windows NT, 2000, XP, and Windows Server 2003 -- are affected by the three flaws, said Venustech, the Chinese security firm that posted analysis on Bugtraq. Some impact Windows XP Service Pack 2 (SP2), some don't.

The LoadImage API vulnerability, for instance -- the latest in a series of image-related vulnerabilities that have hit Windows, Unix, and Linux -- affects Windows NT through Windows Server 2003. Whether Windows XP SP2 is at risk, however, isn't yet known.

This vulnerability could be exploited by attackers who entice users to a malicious Web site that includes a specially-crafted icon, cursor, animated cursor, or bitmap file, said Danish security firm Secunia in its alert. Alternately, the malicious image could be delivered via HTML e-mail. Users who view such messages or visit such sites could find their systems hijacked by hackers, who would be able to run their own code remotely on the PC.

The second bug, which is in Windows' ANI (animated cursor) files, could be used by an attacker to crash or freeze a Windows PC, said Venustech in its analysis. Windows XP SP2 is not vulnerable to this flaw, however.

But it is to the third, and last, of the trio, which revolves around how Windows parses help files. The bug can be exploited to create a buffer overflow, and thus give attackers control of the computer, if users open a maliciously-crafted help file posted on a site or sent to them via e-mail.

Secunia bundled the three bugs and labeled the group as a "highly critical" vulnerability, the second highest warning the firm uses. "Don't visit untrusted Web sites and don't open documents from untrusted sources," advised Secunia.

The SANS Institute's Internet Storm Center (ISC) gave similar stay-clear advice. "Try not to install help files until some Tuesday in, we hope, January," the center reported.

The ISC reference to Tuesday relates to Microsoft's practice of releasing patches on the second Tuesday of every month. The next scheduled security bulletin/patch day is Jan. 11, 2005.

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 Dec 04 - 10:35 AM

Just received an email from a mob who let you register free full legal copies of their S/W, then send you daily emails offering special deals on their other products.... They were sending HTML format email, but now seem to have decided to send text emails... :-)


Quote
Dear customer,

some of our customers informed us lately that problems occured in the illustration of our newsletters. Our engineers determined that the illustration is massively effected by the Microsoft® Service Pack 2 (find more tips on this issue at the end of this email).

As we are not sure whether you have received our pre-order offers in the last weeks we´d like to offer you to buy the FINAL version of the following three products for the cheap PRE-ORDER PRICES:

[SNIP]

In the latest version of Microsoft® Outlook pictures are blocked. Therefore you have to click on the information line (right mouseclick) to download and view these pictures.
You can do the same within our newsletter. The line can be found between the header and the body - just point here with the mouse pointer.

UNQUOTE

Robin

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:37 PM

ESPECIALLY FOR THOSE WITHOUT WINXP-SP2:

Microsoft has just issued an "Out of Sequence Critical Update" for virtually ALL WINDOWS USERS. This is only the second time that they have deemed a patch "Critical Enough" to interrupt the normal monthly cycle of AutoUpdates, since the "scheduled release" procedure was instituted 2 years ago.

The ONLY Windows versions that do not need this patch are WinXP-SP2 and Windows Server 2003. The vulnerability affected does not exist in these two. They rewrote a lot of code for WinXP-SP2, so maybe it got removed by accident(?). For the "hopelessly obsolete" there are some older versions of IE not affected, but it's not likely many people will have them(?).

If you are using AutoUpdate, you may already have received this patch. It was on my Win2K machine by about 03:00 today. If there is any question, I'd suggest checking with the update site to be sure you get it.

Details - probably more than you want to know - are at Microsoft Security Bulletin MS04-040: Cumulative Security Update for Internet Explorer (889293) (Technet Bulletin). This is the "TechNet" version, and there probably is a more "user friendly" blurb somewhere for "non-techs," but it does include links to get the patch appropriate to your system, and tells you if you are one of the few who shouldn't install it.

The "good news" is that, despite recent notices of non-support for older Windows versions, there are updates specific to Win98, Win98SE, WinME, Win2000, and WinXP-SP1. The bad news is that since Microsoft has stated that these systems would be patched only when an "extremely critical" vulnerability was found, the release of these patches underscores how serious they believe this patch is.

Note that this is shown as an IE patch, but if you run Windows you should patch this vulnerability even if you don't use IE for browsing. The vulnerability can be accessed and used even if the virus gets on your machine by some other route.

What happened? According to earlier reports, the vulnerability was found in August. Details "went public" in November. Although there were a very few "exploits" of the vulnerability when it became known, it was not considered "critical" until someone hacked into two "Banner Ad" servers about two weeks ago and replaced a few ads with virus infected "substitutes." The people who run the affected Banner Ad sites initially reported "very few users affected," but the indication now is that the virus infected messages/ads were quite widely distributed, making everyone vulnerable.

For those who haven't thought about it before, most of the "banner" and "sidebar" ads you see on web sites are not stored on the server from whom you get the page. The advertising is often stored separately on "Ad Server" sites, and is linked into the page that the site you visit displays. In many cases the site you visit doesn't even get to decide which ads are displayed, and many Ad Servers rotate them, according to a schedule or randomly.

While your AV may intercept the virus, if it's up to date, the common use of spoofing and disguise and the number of virus methods in circulation for disabling AV make it advisable that the vulnerability itself be removed by installing the patch where appropriate.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Leadfingers
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 06:13 AM

It doesnt seem to be causing any problems for me , and its let me post no 100 here -Sorry ted .

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 01:53 PM

Just wait. You will.

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 08:34 AM

All this makes me so pleased that I still run Windows 98.
With a decent firewall, antivirus and Ad-aware I have had no trouble now for 2 years.

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 06:49 AM

Guest Dale -

Someone earlier in the thread did mention needing to get an update from Roxio. I didn't find anything new there, but had updated (for other reasons) very shortly before running the SP2 install so I probably already had the one needed.

The prior updates to WinXP - or something - had slowed down AV scans somewhat - too many security systems I guess, or just too many sigs in the file to check. I found (after updating to Roxio's latest patch for my ver.) that my Norton AV was insisting on scanning each file as it loaded/opened to be burned, and would occasionally cause a timeout on the buffer overrun protection - resulting in a bad burn. At least I think that's what was going on, and I have not had a bad one since I started unhooking from the 'net and turning off the AV while burning.

I haven't checked to see if installing SP2 helped or hurt the burner situation - just continued shutting off AV to burn; but if you loaded an older version you might want to check with Roxio for updates.

HP has been pretty good about keeping up with driver updates whenever needed, so you might see if they can download a "better" one than you have; but most HP printers are pretty good about running with generic (esp. generic HP) drivers too.

Epson is more of a problem, since they essentially refuse (they say "decline") to submit their drivers for "Windows compatibility certification." I've had a couple of different Win systems argue about installing Epson's latest because of the lack of a "cert signature," and Win2K flatly refused to install one of their scanner drivers for me recently. The error message was something like "I ain't gonna touch that dirty thing - it'll hurt me." A couple of Epson devices I had on my WinXP machine didn't seem to be affected by SP2 though.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: GUEST,Dale
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 09:59 PM

I got mine a little differently a month or so back. My four year old HP Pentium 4 had Me on it. For a variety of reasons I decided to upgrade to XP, and chose the new version with SP2 already included, though the old version was still available in stores. This seemed to be the best route.

About the worst thing that happened was that a message popped up saying that it didn't recognize my printer (HP 722C), though the printer continued to work before the work was done.

A few programs had to be reinstalled.   For example, both Sound Forge and Microsoft Works continued to work, while neither Roxio nor Nero would.

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 05:38 PM

i have installed this thing a couple of times myself...and then have problems with drivers and installing things onto the pc and watching videos and dsound. I uninstall the stupid thing then some issues corrected but nothing is completely corrected til i reformat and reinstall. I install the updates just not sp2 it is shite.

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 02:12 AM

Just did mine without any problems.
I have Win XP direct from Microsoft.

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: EBarnacle
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 02:07 AM

I got the SP2 when it first came out--in hard copy. As one of those who is not willing to pay for high speed and who prefers to have a disk for any program in my computer I insisted and got it within two weeks of the announcement. It works fine for me and has made the machine even better than when new. The computer was built from standard components at my local computer shop to my specs and generally has been very good. Not too big, not too fast, but just right.

No problems with cameras except refusal to recognize the home program of my camera but will accept adobe photoshop in its place.

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 01:19 AM

"A very large number of people apparently got SP2 by AutoUpdate and thus may NEVER have seen ANY instructions."

Yes, John, that is exactly our point. When we suggested that to Microsoft the reply was that we should have known. Does everyone know that except us? We don't think so.

And, as you have pointed out, going to Gateway's site (or anyone else's) wouldn't have helped anyway. When we pointed out that Gateway's site simply referred us back to the Microsoft site, the "manager" expressed surprise.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 08:19 PM

HOW NASTY IS THE NET?

The full impact of widespread distribution of SP2 can't be assessed yet, but some have speculated that making WinXP consistently harder to attack could divert more trash to other systems that were previously "too small a target." No one believes that WinXP SP2 is "bulletproof" yet, but:

A new Banner Ad Exploit appeared a week ago and did some damage. The "vulnerability" was known since last August, but wasn't considered critical because no attacks had been seen, and it's rather difficult to exploit. No fixes are available for any Windows Operating System for this vulnerability, although the vulnerability does not exist in WinXP SP2. Most security people still consider it a "low risk" threat, and it appears now more likely to be a website/server problem than one for individual users. That could change rapidly if someone uses it with more success. Whether Microsoft issues a patch for other Win versions will likely depend on whether additional exploitation occurs.

Within the past few months, SCO has been shut down twice by DDoS attacks, and was Hacked Again on at least three sites, twice within the past weekend. The main SCO site was reported "off-line" three times last weekend. Maybe suing Red Hat isn't cost-effective …(?)[I don't think SCO even uses Windows(?)]

Two new worms affecting CELL PHONES have popped up in the past two weeks. One of these can "infect" and disable another web-capable phone that passes within a few feet. There are virtually no AV systems available for these devices, so it's likely a new "growth industry." Note – only web capable phones are affected.

In a prior post someone asked about reports of a "security problem" with the Google Toolbar. The "problem" that's been discussed recently applies only to the beta Google Desktop Search (GDS) toolbar. You don't have it unless you've gone to the Google "tester's site" and specifically requested it. A very recent commentary on the "problem" by a reputable authority is at Desktop Google Finds Holes eWeek By Bruce Schneier, November 29, 2004. It may be noted that the "problem" applies to virtually all browsers that allow use of the toolbar, but probably is not really a "Google problem." The GDS toolbar merely finds holes that exist in virtually all available browsers. It's the browsers that need fixing, not the GDS toolbar – at least in the opinion of this expert.

On the brighter side at Google, a new site at http://scholar.google.com allows you to search for specific "scholarly papers." You don't have to download or install anything, just put in a search string and read the results. Check the "About Google Scholar" button for info on what it's for. The database is still under development, so results now may be less than "thorough," but if it works as planned it may be very useful for some. (Actually getting the books and papers it finds may still be a problem for much of what's indexed, especially for those of us without an "academic account.")

John

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 08:07 PM

Bev and Jerry -

The instruction to consult you computer manufacturer was quite prominent in the "What to do before you install" instructions at the Microsoft SP site. That there have been "175 million installations" of SP2 speaks well for the "almost universal ease" of installing this update, since it's quite obvious that 174.9 million of those who installed it never visited or consulted Microsoft for anything except the download. A very large number of people apparently got SP2 by AutoUpdate and thus may NEVER have seen ANY instructions. (Please note obvious(?) sarcasm - and generalization: I'm not referring to anyone in particular, and specifically not to you guys.)

With respect to that particular instruction, as a pre-installation step I've found it pretty much useless. I did check the sites for MPC, Dell, and Fujitsu, from whom I have machines currently, and also Gateway, Compaq, and about a half dozen others for which I knew friends had machines, and found NONE OF THE MFRS indicated anything that needed to be done prior to installing SP2. Nearly all of them just linked back to the Microsoft site - as Gateway did - if they had anything indicating they were even aware of SP2. (About half of those I checked had nothing that even mentioned SP2 - by "search for on page" on each "head" or "index" page at a half dozen levels, including "Support," for each mfr where I couldn't find something obvious.)

In general I agree with your conclusion that the "only clean way" to do a major upgrade of Windows is to get it preinstalled on a new machine. This is especially true with WinXP, as most computers purchased with prior versions simply don't have the resources WinXP really needs. (Many computers sold with WinXP preinstalled don't really have the resources WinXP needs - IMO.) I have a relatively new machine purchased with Win2K that I'd like to switch to XP, but the "machine is seriously deficient" in several areas (RAM and HD size, for starters).

For those who do have "good enough" older machines, new versions of WinXP-SP2 are beginning to be available, and Gateway now offers an "upgrade WinXP-SP2 Home" for about $100, with the "upgrade WinXP-SP2 Professional" at about $200. I couldn't tell from the info I looked at whether that's a "Gateway OEM" version or a "Microsoft shrinkwrap," and there may be special conditions for getting the "upgrade version." I don't believe this was available when I looked at their site a coupe of months ago. An email to their marketing support people, describing the problems you've had, might get an opinion on whether that product would "solve your problem," or at least whether they're willing to give you your money back if it doesn't (ask specifically for the guarantee, and verify that you qualify for the "upgrade" version, if interested).

If you decide to stick with the old WinXP for now, I'd again strongly urge that you visit the update site and look at what it offers in the "Custom Install" mode. AutoUpdate and Express Install only look for "Critical Updates" that are applicable to all machines, so you're never offered fixes that apply only to those with "special problems" and you never see quite a few other things in the "maybe nice to have" category. You might find a "fix" for your SP2 problem. It will take some time to sift throught all the offerings, but if you get the critical ones in place you can take your time with the "optionals."

Anyone using "AutoUpdate" should occasionally visit the Windows update site and run the "Custom Install" just to see if there's something peculiar to their setup. Most critical updates are included with Windows AutoUpdate, but a periodic look at the separate IE and Security sites sometimes turns up something "less than critical" that's still useful. If applicable, the Office Update site may have something to know about.

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 02:01 PM

John:

Thanks for the information. We did put our serial number into the Gateway site and there was nothing there about SP2.

We found your statement that "Microsoft's policy that OEM installed systems must be supported by the OEM manufacturer is well known" rather interesting. While we can understand Microsoft's position on this matter, it never occurred to us to ask Gateway if it was OK to install SP2 on our machine. We consider ourselves more knowledgable than the average user of XP, so problems like this must have occurred a lot of times (according to Microsoft there have been 175 million installations of SP2). It would seem that it would not be too difficult for Microsoft to make this more clear.

What we are wondering is: How many people reading this knew that they had to consult their computer manufacurer before installing SP2 or, for that matter, any windows update?

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 08:41 AM

Some Computer Mags in Aust added the SP2 CD to their Cover Disks for one month recently. MS say that you can pass it around, so it _seems_ that it might be freely copyable.

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 05:01 AM

Microsoft's policy that OEM installed systems must be supported by the OEM manufacturer is well known. One reason for this is that many manufaturers have historically made changes to the OEM version OS to suit their own notions about "what you need." Microsoft has no control over, or even full knowledge of, what changes the mfr makes, so it's very difficult for them to give specific support. The support you get from the mfrs varies from "don't bother us" to excellent. With past operating systems, Gateway has been a distant second to Compaq for "proprietary mods," and I believe that newer systems probably have fewer "specials" than older ones, but it's sort of a "fact of life."

Gateway's web site (tech suppport) has a whole page of stuff on SP2, but clicking any of the links I've tried just takes you to the Microsoft pages for SP2. If you go to Gateway Support it asks for your computer serial number, which of course I don't have, and you might get more specific help from Gateway if you enter a valid one.

Microsoft has a page of "Links to manufacturers" that supposedly will get you "specific help on what's needed for SP2," but the link to Gateway just takes you to the Gateway home page, and I don't find anything very "specific to SP2" there, except the links back to Microsoft. (There's an old term – "passsing the buck?") Don't feel bad though, because I've found the same thing with other builders' sites – mine included. This generally means that your manufacturer doesn't know of (or doesn't want to admit to) any problems with SP2 that are "product specific."

If you can enter valid machine ID at the Gateway site, they may be able to tell you a specific reason why your machine doesn't accept the SP2 installation. There are some "machine problems" but most manufacturers maintain that SP2 should be able to install on any of their machines. If you happen to be one of the "lucky ones" with a deviant machine, they should be able to tell you.

There are three general kinds of problems that people are having with SP2:

1. You may have programs or devices that don't meet current "Windows Compliant" specifications. In most such cases WinXP SP2 installs okay but specific programs or devices fail to run as expected. Most such cases can be solved with updated drivers, program updates, or by using "special settings" to turn off specific SP2 features that conflict.

2. You may have a WinXP copy that is not recognized as valid. Microsoft warns, quite prominently, that SP2 will not install on a copy of WinXP that is not legally registered. It's a deep dark secret how they might know, but it's a possibility.

3. You may have a machine that is not "up to date." SP2 expects that your machine will include "typical" machine standards at the time of installation, and some machines have been found to need BIOS updates – as an example – for successful installation.

Since your whole machine stops working, the first group can be discounted – at least until you can get Windows running right.

There are legal ways that you might have WinXP on our machine and not have the installation CD in your possession, but they are NOT NORMAL. The license for WinXP, when registered, is specific to a single machine, and the installation CD for a machine normally should be in the possession of the one who has the machine.

One of the widespread concerns when WinXP first came out was the report that WinXP checks the machine at boot to be sure that it's on the same machine for which it's been registered. Large-scale changes, like adding too many new drives, etc., could "turn off" WinXP, requiring you to re-register. That appears not to be much of a problem, but at least to some extent a copy of WinXP "knows" if it's legal. If there's any suspicion in this area, talk to the guy who has the disk.

There are a very few "general machine problems" in the third category. A sidebar of "frequently consulted" articles at the Microsoft WinXP SP2 site includes a general article that might at least be similar to, your problem, at KB 885626. This addresses problems vaguely similar to yours that result from a processor/BIOS mismatch that occurs with a fairly specific set of processors and BIOS versions. While the ones involved are ones that Gateway may have used, there's no way to tell whether this, or something similar, is your problem without inspection of your machine. This article does give instructions for connecting to an Intel site where your machine can be checked for processor and BIOS versions, and rather general instructions to "1. get a BIOS update from your manufacturer," or "2. Install Critical Update kb 885626. Note that this will only help if this is your problem but it's "typical" of the sort of thing you may run into.

A second "general article," again from the Microsoft SP2 site sidebar, describes symptoms vaguely similar, but not exactly the same as yours, at KB 885523. This article describes symptoms due to noncompliant hardware/software for which there is a specific "fix" that, like the patch for an old BIOS, is only applicable with that particular setup. Since the existence of the conflict may not have been previously detected, you might have missed the update. It is not one that's generally applicable to all machines. Again, this is probably not your specific problem, but will give you an idea of the kind of thing you need to look for.

With the difficulties you've already had, I can understand that maybe you'd rather just "forget about SP2." While I would still recommend that you figure out the problem and get SP2, at this point it's probably more important that you get updated to pre-SP2.

Since you have reinstalled WinXP without SR2 at this point, your present system has none of the prior security patches, so YOU HAVE EVERY SECURITY VULNERABILITY EVER FOUND IN WINXP. Since the older vulnerabilities are well known, there are a lot of "crud mongers" out there searching for machines they can get into. You do need to get to the update site, and get older patches downloaded. If you go to Windows Update and choose "Custom Install" it will allow you to select which updates to download. Just omit SP2. The "Custom Install" will also show you non-critical update that are ignored by "Express Install," some of which will ONLY apply to specific equipment/software configurations. You may be able to recognize one you need that wouldn't be required by most users.

As you've found, having someone service your machine for you can be expensive. Doing it yourself can take significant time and effort. You should have the WinXP installation disk for your machine. Before making another attempt (if you decide to) at installing SP2, I'd strongly recommend that you order the free SP2 CD rather than trying to download. The CD contains nearly all the "pre-fixes" that might be needed, and that might be missed by the web scan/download process. I'd recommend ordering the free CD now, even if you don't think you'll want to install SP2 now.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 06:46 PM

They have to make their money somehow...

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:06 PM

Here's an update.

It took two weeks for the Microsoft Tech to reach us and, by then, we had already resolved the problem by paying $200, deleting SP2 and turning off automatic updates. He "referred the problem to a manager" who called and talked to us for one hour!

His explanation was that, since we bought the computer from Gateway, it was Gateway's responsbility to inform us whether or not sp2 was safe to install on our machine. If it was safe, they should have informed us what, if any, changes we had to make before we intalled sp2. So, the problem belongs to Gateway, not Microsoft.

The fact that the first thing the installation program did was check our computer for compatibility with sp2 and say it was OK to install it does not change the responsibility. Microsoft does not support customers of OEMs (Original Equipment Manufacturers) like Gateway.

So, we are screwed. We refrained from making any references to the droppings of any barnyard animals but finally hung up on him as he was telling us to "have a nice day".

There will be no reimbursement of the $200! Surprise!


Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: GUEST,Diane
Date: 23 Nov 04 - 05:01 AM

I had Automatic Updates on so the Service Pack 2 was downloaded to my computer but not installed. Can anyone tell me how to delete the downloaded setup program? Can anyone tell me where the files for automatic updates are stored until you install them? I don't want to install it because the benefits don't seem to outweigh the risks, and on most of the message boards I've visited the feedback is predominently negative. I currently use Webroot Spy Sweeper & PopUp Washer, and Norton's Anti-Virus & Internet Security, and they keep me clear of the security concerns that XP is supposed to address. So it doesn't make sense to risk screwing up my computer for redundant software.

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Steve in Sidmouth
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 11:21 AM

All of which makes me very grateful that I run Windows 95 and 98 and have very few problems at all. I even got a hit on my website the other day from a machine running windows 3.xx. Now that IS old - but I still use it on an old 486 for word processing!

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 11:11 AM

Many thanks John - that did it

R

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 10:48 AM

Sir Roger -

When you install SP2, it adds a new "line" in your Control Panel called "Security Center." Start - Settings - Control Panel, and then scroll down. Double Click on Security Settings, and you'll see what's turned on. There should be buttons there to "manage" your firewall settings. The options there may vary with what has been detected on your machine, but you should be able to tell it that you want to use another firewall and it should shut up. You may have to "promise" that you'll "manage your other firewall manually" and "keep it updated" and such, but you should be able to get the messages quieted.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Sir Roger de Beverley
Date: 20 Nov 04 - 10:31 AM

I downloaded the service pack two days ago and, as advised here, turned off the firewall as I am perfectly happy with the Kerio one that is on the machine already.

No problems at all except that I keep getting a pop up that tells me my computer could be at risk because I have turned off the firewall!!

Is there any way of stopping this thing appearing? I know that I can close it but I would rather not have to.

Roger

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 04:29 PM

John:

Thanks for the sympathy. We're just about recovered and we think we only lost two files which we had paper copies of so we re-entered them. All of our applications seem to be working, too. Actually, the computer seems much faster and better behaved than before so maybe it wasn't a total loss.

The reason? It's us. Once before we tried to have a computer upgraded and it was a horrible mess. The shop finally returned the machine to us but it never worked right again.

Moral: If you're haunted, don't upgrade, buy a new one.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:52 AM

Bev and Jerry -

I'm afraid all I can offer at this point is sympathy. I do know, from past experience, how frustrating this kind of stuff can be. You know there has to be a reason, and it's probably a simple one, but there's just not an easy way to find it.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 19 Nov 04 - 01:14 AM

John:

When we said, "When they added SP2, they got the same result we did" that wasn't precisely correct. Actually, they found a different system 32 file corrupted.

At this point the tech called us and we agreed with his approach of, as you say, not spending a lot of reasearch time" at $80/hour.

We've been using Norton AV, Spy Sweeper, Ad Aware and Pest Patrol and now we've added Spybot, too. We sweep the hard drive for viruses once a week and run all of the others, too. So far we've hardly ever picked anything up.

At this point, we'd rather buy a new machine with SP2 already installed than to accept another download from Microsoft.

By the way, we asked Microsoft for $200 in damages in writing. Don't hold your breath until we get it!

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 04:35 PM

Bev and Jerry:

With a "clean" WinXP installation, with NONE of the earlier Critical Updates, you have a statistical 50% (or higher) chance of "infection" within the first hour of connection to the internet, based on tests recently conducted by reputable labs. With a good AV program working, you might extend the 50-50 odds point a little longer, but quite a lot of malware out there (technically not all are viruses) can get in past any AV, at least temporarily. With good AV and a decent firewall, you might survive a little longer – or not. Ports that you NEED to have open can be accessed from outside your machine, and your firewall has to allow "legitimate" access to them. Known vulnerabilities in unpatched WinXP can be exploited, by junk entering via those ports disguised as "legitimate" accesses, to put crud on your machine, and to use it for malicious purposes, often without you even knowing it's there.

Installing all the patches doesn't necessarily prevent everything from getting in, but if something does get in, there's little it can do before you have a chance to find and remove it if the hole it's designed to exploit has been patched. Some malware is packaged so that technically it isn't a virus when it arrives. It may reveal it's viral components later when it tries to execute on your machine, or in some cases may run as a script to download crudware later. Your AV may intercept it once its malware components appear, but it may be too late to prevent some damage. Many such "devices" execute at startup, and may get started before your AV can be loaded. If this happens, they can do some damage before there is an operable AV to intercept them. Even if your AV deletes the "malware" when the AV starts, it may not remove "programs" or other artifacts installed by the malware.


Your shop should have had no difficulty extracting the missing/corrupt file from the SP2 CD or copying it from the C:\Windows\ServicePackFiles\i386 folder on your machine to the working location in C:\Windows\System32. (They should not be attempting to install SP2 from downloads, since all the prior Critical Patches must be installed ahead of SP2, and the CD is the only practical way to assure that, unless they have unlimited "connect time" for each customer. Unless they only have one customer, they'll be working on machines with a variety of incomplete prior patch installations.)

In fairness to them, they may or may not have tried to address the symptom you indicated or they may have found other problems, and the reformat and reinstall is often done to avoid spending a lot of "research" time in the shop. You took them a "dead" machine, which does complicate things. It's seldom the best solution, but it's their call - or yours.

A corrupted .exe file should ALWAYS suggest the possibility of malware on the system. While it's possible that a single copy of the SP2 install might be a "bad copy," it's much more likely that the file was "corrupted" on the machine, unless both you and your shop used the "same" corrupted copy of the update. Another drive, or partition, that was not reformatted could be a source of an infection. There are a few other possible causes, but your shop needs to know why this file "disappeared," especially if it did so after they reinstalled from their own source media, if only to verify that it's not due to malware.

There are numerous known difficulties with SP2 installation, but most of them, for home machines, relate to specific software installed on the machine, or to "specific hardware" connected to it. WinXP SP2 usually works, but individual programs and/or functions don't. A very few individual programs lack full fixes, although even for most of these there are known "workarounds." It is possible someone might have hardware for which no good driver is available. SP2 can be "set back" to lower security levels to accommodate most of these, which is still significantly more secure than running a machine with none of the old holes patched.

Given a "clean" machine, with reformatted drive, and a new installation of WinXP, there should be very few cases where the SP2 installation shouldn't be successful if properly done. Properly done in this case SPECIFICALLY means that all prior Critical Updates must be installed before SP2. The only practical way of getting the required prior updates is from the SP2 CD, since the total "download" approaches 800 MB. (About 700 MB if you omit SP2 itself.) It's unlikely you can connect long enough to get the earlier updates without having one of the "still unpatched" holes being exploited.

One step in the SP2 instructions that's often skipped is to scan for viruses and other malware immediately before installing. If you intend to install from downloads, you need to scan carefully and thoroughly before the download, since the installation files themselves could be compromised by malware already on your machine.

Another recommended step that's often skipped is to check for program and driver "SP2 compatible" updates for your stuff before you install, and check the lists of known problem software to be sure there are fixes or workarounds for things you have. There are updates to Microsoft's own programs that are helpful, and in some cases "almost imperative." The majority of Microsoft programs that really need updates are server versions, but visiting Office Updates is suggested.

Sorry to hear of your problems. Take a deep breath and think about it for a bit.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: wilbyhillbilly
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 06:38 AM

Well thanks to the advice I got here I now have my graphics back and photos are downloading as normal again.

This is after I UNINSTALLED XP2 and used some of the techniques outlined above.

So coincidence or what?. One thing I do know, I am certainly not reinstalling it.

Too much hassle.

whb

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: open mike
Date: 18 Nov 04 - 02:36 AM

ever since the xp service pack loaded itself
i have not been able to get sound on Paltalk.
which breaks my heart , i miss it so. bummer.
i have tried to disable toe fire wall...
or teach it to make an exception with pal..
but still messed up.

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Bev and Jerry
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 07:59 PM

We updated to SP2 a few days ago and it was a complete disaster. After restarting, the computer seemed to work OK but once it was turned off, windows would never start again. The error message was:

\system32\ntoskrnl.exe missing or corrupt

Called SP2 help line and among the four people we talked to, they may have been able to spell Microsoft if they put their heads together. Promised to have a tech call us but it's been nearly three days and no call.

Sent the machine to the shop and they formatted the hard drive and reloaded Windows with SP1. When they added SP2, they got the same result we did. So, they did it again and returned it to us without SP2.

Now, after three days of work and more than $250 spent, we're almost back to where we were before the fateful click.

We hear that it works much of the time but this scenario should be a warning of the risk you are taking when you install SP2.

We'll never accept an update from microsoft again.

Bev and Jerry

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Bernard
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 02:51 PM

For a computer shop to say they 'get about 80% of their work fixing problems caused by SP 2' is highly unprofessional... and probably wildly inaccurate.

How do they define 'fix'?

Taken out of context it is meaningless... but my bet is they really mean that SP2 has given many inexperienced users things to cope with that they can't understand (like the firewall default), and they've needed advice.

To me, that is no more a 'fault' than someone using unleaded fuel in a vehicle that isn't designed or adapted to use it, with the inevitable consequences.

It's what we call a picnic... Problem In Chair, Not In Computer...

Microsoft aren't the Good Guys by any means, but SP2 is much more reliable than many people seem to want to admit. All machines running XP that are in my care (either at work, or personal) have been patched to SP2, and the only 'problems' I've had reported to me seem to be directly linked to the firewall default.

I refrained from updating one machine at home for a while, but noticed an improvement in performance when I did update - in fact, a couple of irritating stability problems were cured.

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 09:35 AM

You might also like to look at this in the MSKB: Pictures do not appear as expected...

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 08:16 AM

whb - Are you running only SP2 firewall or have you another one installed. I run Norton IS, so have the SP2 firewall disabled, but at a quick look I can't see that SP2 firewall has the option to block any animated images. Norton IS on the other hand can do that (Privacy Control/Configure/Advanced/Animated Images).

(Also, if you right-click the place holder do you get a Show Picture option. If that get the image, it would suggest that IE settings are stopping the display. Otherwise the image is probably being stopped by security).

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: wilbyhillbilly
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 07:09 AM

Thanks guest mcp, checked that but they are both ticked, so back to square one. GRRRRR!!!

whb

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:45 AM

Something you might check in Internet Explorer is on the menu item: Tools/Internet Options/Advanced tab. In the Multimedia section check that the entry for Show Pictures is checked (otherwise you'll only see placeholders) and that Play Animations In Web Pages is checked (otherwise they'll show but not move).

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: wilbyhillbilly
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:22 AM

Thanks a lot John, I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. at least I,ve now got a starting place.

whb

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 02:58 AM

willby –

I'm tied up with something else at the moment, so can only give a brief reply.

Since no one else is having trouble seeing your web site, including a number with SP2, the first assumption has to be that your problem there is with settings on your own machine. There are likely to be settings in the firewall, (XP SP2's or your other), separate settings in AV, and settings in your browser, any or all of which can block animations on web pages you visit. (You appeared to indicate that you can see the page, just not the animated graphics.)

Most cameras use a USB hookup to download pictures. Many cameras come with a driver that must be installed to make the hookup. It's possible that your driver got lost in the SP installation. It's also possible your camera driver is one of the few that's incompatible with SP2 (unlikely) and that you need to get a new driver for SP2 from your camera guys.

You can also get a failure to connect if you have disconnected the camera without going through the "safely remove hardware" button on the System Tray Toolbar at the bottom of the main window. (It's pretty easy to do that, without realizing it.) If you don't do the formal disconnect, the machine looks at the old dead connection and can't initiate a new one on the same port. The usual procedure in the latter case is to go to Control Panel and "remove" the USB connection, then reboot and let the system make a new setup via PNP, but I've been there so seldom you might be advised to look for the recovery procedure yourself.

From prior post at: Date: 26 Sep 04 - 01:30 PM

"What to Know Before You Download and Install Windows XP Service Pack 2, Published: August 4, 2004, Updated: September 17, 2004

"Note that at the bottom of the above page there is a link to:

" Windows XP SP2 Support Center where you are directed if you have problems."

The FAQ section at either link may have something helpful. Even if it's not the quickest way out, figuring out what's going on usually makes me feel better. Take a look at the sidebars, since they often change what's the "topic of the day" there.

Sorry I'm unavailable for more discussion at the moment.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: wilbyhillbilly
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 12:05 AM

Sorry about this, but I need help

whb

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: wilbyhillbilly
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 08:41 AM

At the risk of being a pain, further to my previous posts regarding my problems with my site images, I just tried to download pictures from my digi camera in the same way as I always did (before SP2 installation) and it now won't do it, just says camera could be empty or batteries flat, which I know is not the case, So surely it must be something to do with the image side of the SP2 install.

Bearing in mind I am a little lacking in the tech dept, anyone got any more ideas, or where I can get help from.

I NOW HATE WINDOWS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


whb

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 05:27 PM

Using another browser does NOT necessarily relieve you of the need to keep IE current. It's integral in Windows, and the "holes" can be called up even if it's not the one you're using for your browsing. An IE patch IS a Windows patch.

Microsoft has allowed for a delay, limited to 60 days approximately, for network techies to plan for the installation; but if you don't install SP2 you will be unable to get any future patches via automatic update, since the autoupdate will attempt to install SP2 first, and must install all prior updates before putting SP2 on. You probably will not be able to get future updates by any means.

Not keeping one's own machine up to date and using appropriate AV and other defenses makes one about about as "socially acceptable" as Typhoid Mary. Probably not recognized, but capable of spreading disease and corruption to everyone they visit.

The problems people have with SP2 are pretty fully documented. You can plan to identify and avoid them with a little effort. You cannot safely put off installation of SP2 indefinitely.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: NH Dave
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 10:45 AM

Many have installed the service pack with no difficulties, but my local computer shop's wiz's say they get about 80% of their work fixing problems caused by SP 2. Me? I'm waiting on this one. Many of the "fixes" involve Internet Explorer and outlook Express security glitches - can you call holes large enough to run a semi through glitches - and I have been using Netscape and now Mozilla since AOL bought and "improved" Netscape, so I don't have these problems.

   Dave

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: wilbyhillbilly
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 10:31 AM

Thanks all for the advice, I,ve tried different settings in security and advanced but still no joy.

I'll just have to keep trying different things and see what happens, but I dare only change one thing at a time so if it doesn't work I can go back and change it right away, cos I don't really know what I'm doing on the tech side.

Still I appreciate the help, and its nice to know that at least the site is showing as it should to others, even if it won't anymore for me.

Thanks again.

whb

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 06:05 AM

In very general and oversimplified terms, your firewall only tells you if something tries to access a port on your computer. It (usually) blocks the access until you tell it that it's okay.

When you turn on your web browser, you've automatically told the firewall that you want to use that port, so it's then the browser that controls what goes in and out there, with assistance perhaps from your AV. The firewall doesn't really care what comes and goes. It only looks at whether there's "something" coming and going, and whether you told it to let it in and out.

Most likely you have a very high security setting in your browser that's not permitting animated graphics. The SP2 installation did make some additional changes to IE, if that's what you're using. What used to be "medium" security is now "very low" and the new "medium security" is what used to be "very high." I can't really guess which settings might be off, but you may find (in IE) something amiss in Tools - Internet Options - most likely on the Security, Privacy, and/or Advanced Tabs.

The site looks fine to me, with WinXP SP2 and IE6.

John

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: GUEST,MCP
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 04:59 AM

Like Joe I have SP2 installed (with no problems at all in a few months of running it) and your graphics are fine on my machine. Have your browser settings changed to not show graphics?

Mick

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 04:33 AM

Hi, WHB. They're working fine on my machine, and I have Service Pack 2. The animated graphics might not get past some security settings, perhaps. Cute graphics, though.

WHB's site is http://www.vinyltransfer.me.uk/

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Tech: XP Service Pack 2 - yes or no
From: wilbyhillbilly
Date: 12 Nov 04 - 03:19 AM

Sorry, me again, tried the blue clicky thing and lost the message.

Site is www.vinyltransfer.me.uk.

I complained to my webhost that the graphics are not working but they said they checked and they are working.

When I bring the site up on my machine, they are NOT working. I now realise that this seemed to have happened since (yep, you guessed) I installed the service pack, now I don't know if this is connected, or just a coincidence, could it be anything to do with the firewall?

Although I am an IDIOT, I DID follow the instructions.

Please can some Techy advise.

Thanks in advance


whb