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BS: One Thousand Gone
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Subject: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Ebbie Date: 07 Sep 04 - 09:19 PM More at http://www.truthout.org/docs_04/090804A.shtml Wednesday 08 September 2004 On the day Operation Iraqi Freedom suffered the 1,000th death of a United States soldier, some quick numbers are in order: 1,095 days since the attacks of September 11; 538 days since the invasion and occupation of Iraq; 1,001 American soldiers dead in Iraq; 1,132 total Coalition soldiers dead in Iraq; More than 20,000 'medical evacuations' of American soldiers from Iraq; More than 10,000 civilians dead in Iraq; 0 weapons of mass destruction; 0 democratic elections in Iraq; 0 connections between Iraq and the attacks of September 11; 0 captures of Osama bin Laden, in Iraq or anywhere else; $1.7 trillion to be spent on Iraq in the next decade, according to the American Academy of Arts and Sciences report by the Committee on International Security Studies (CISS). |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Ebbie Date: 07 Sep 04 - 09:21 PM Sorry- I should have made it clear that I am quoting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,GROK Date: 07 Sep 04 - 09:23 PM |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,GROK Date: 07 Sep 04 - 09:25 PM Ebbie, I stared at the post for two minutes. I can't think of a single thing to say. I wonder if they feel proud tonight in Washington? |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Amos Date: 07 Sep 04 - 10:45 PM Doug R -- You want some facts? Count 'em up, pal. You wonder why I ask how you can sleep at night? Count 'em up. You disdainfully dismiss my description of Bush as a murderer? Can you count that high? I have every respect for your courage, but your convictions are bewildering and off-kilter to me. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Bill D Date: 07 Sep 04 - 10:58 PM " I wonder if they feel proud tonight in Washington?" when you have made THAT big of a blunder, you simply lie to yourself so you can keep lying to others about it. The big lie you tell everyone, including yourself, is "The world is safer with Saddam out of power" It sounds good, it rings of a certain almost truth, and it avoids saying that getting Saddam out of power has caused more troubles than it solved! |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: katlaughing Date: 07 Sep 04 - 11:05 PM (Speechless with grief, rage, and fear that it will continue...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST Date: 07 Sep 04 - 11:08 PM I was going to suggest you name this thread WHINERS CORNER but that title is taken. Sorry. Capitalizing on a milestone of death at the same time as belittling the reasons our young men and women are there, and deliberately framing the facts to suit your own agenda (or that of the person you are quoting without atribution) is not a way to do credit to your cause, which SHOULD be the safety of the people of this country and the extension of democratic principles to the suffering people of Iraq. I know I'm not going along with the purpose of this thread, which is to encourage us all to flagellate ourselves in a miasma of denigration and recrimination, but hell, you're already primed for disappointment, so deal. One thing I think you will agree on: IT AIN'T OVER YET |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Bobert Date: 07 Sep 04 - 11:19 PM Well, as we reflect on those folks, mostly nothing more than kids, I think it appropriate to reflect on the deaths of contract workers who oin wars past would have been in uniform... ...but it doesn't stop there. How about the 20,000 seriously injured US soldiers, amny of whom will be disabled for life and... ...the unknown number of Iragi civilian women, kids and old folks who have also died... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: mack/misophist Date: 07 Sep 04 - 11:41 PM Dear Guest, You said: " your cause, which SHOULD be the safety of the people of this country and the extension of democratic principles to the suffering people of Iraq.", and you were correct in fact and utterly wrong in intent. Try to work on that. We're in Iraq because somebody lied to the world. The people of Iraq are not substantially better off now than they were under Sadam, and more have died than would have otherwise. There are no clear signs of impending improvement. How can you approve of this? |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Date: 08 Sep 04 - 12:12 AM I usually stay out of political threads as they often turn nasty, but, your missing the point GUEST, Ebbie, or anyone else, is not celebrating the figures, they are making the point that over 1,000 young american men are dead. Yet, the fighting continues, and as stated they have found no weapons of mas distruction, and UK politicians have admitted that they probably never will. [We in the UK were told, that Saddam could launch an attack on us within 45 minutes]. A figure I find sad is the 20,000 injured, [my own father was sent home injured from the Aden conflict whilst serving in the Brittish Army, he never recovered from this, and was disabled for the rest of his life]. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Little Hawk Date: 08 Sep 04 - 01:15 AM Nope, it ain't over yet. It won't even be over when the last American soldier leaves Iraq, I figure. There'll probably be more fighting between Sunnis, Shiites, Kurds, etc, for some time after that. And none of it needed to happen at all. But there's oil there. Lots of it. Oil is worth far more than a thousand American lives (or 10,000 Iraqui lives) to the planners of this war. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,Boab Date: 08 Sep 04 - 02:50 AM Aye--a thousand young men and women gone---the FIRST thousand, it tragically seems. If the American public are, indeed so evenly divided between G.W.B. and his challenger, Kerry, then the world is in deadly danger of careering to continuing and increasing catastrophe. Many thousands more are bound to die in this "war on terror". If Bush should win, continuing slaughter seems inevitable. The great pity is that his opponent is playing up his own part in an old--and equally pointless---war. Pity the Americans [and the World] that this most powerful nation can only bring forward two such unworthy and dangerous men to represent them on the World stage. In the absence of a truly viable and decent alternative, I am hoping for a Kerry victory; but he is the lesser of two evils as far as I can see. I hope, for the sake of the world and its children, that I am misjudging the man. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: saulgoldie Date: 08 Sep 04 - 12:47 PM Thanks for posting this so very sad note, Ebbie. We need these reminders to spur us to action and to help us make sure to not repeat our mistakes. I think I will copy this into constituent letters to my federal representatives. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST Date: 08 Sep 04 - 02:40 PM I'd like to cast a vote against poetic, metaphoric thread titles. Had the same problem with the Russian school massacre thread title. Went to look for a thread on it, couldn't find one. Could we please wax poetic in the opening message of the thread, rather than obscure the subject by doing it in the thread title? Back to your local programming now... |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: DougR Date: 08 Sep 04 - 02:41 PM And not one ounce of sympathy expressed for the hundreds of thousands Saddam buried in mass graves, right. Those young people are in Iraq and Afghanstan fitting for YOUR friggin' freedom! They deserve more respect than being used by a bunch of hate mongers to prove their point of view. Pathetic. Amos: typical. Disagree with a point of view, personally attack the one who disagrees. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST Date: 08 Sep 04 - 02:53 PM I agree with you DougR, that we are in Iraq for what lays buried there. But it isn't the victims of Saddam Hussein's bloody reign. We're there for the oil. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:03 PM DougR,
This is a patent lie. It's the Bush party line, and has no resemblance to fact. These lives in IRAQ weren't lost for any American freedom at all. They were lost because of Dubya's ego. He was ABLE to send troops and fight a war--so he did. His act is the most morally bankrupt act anyone in his position can do. How many times must you be told that Iraq had nothing to do with the destruction of the World Trade Center? And the Afghans didn't have anything to do with it either, but it was convenient for Dubya to blow them to hell because bin Laden was in their midst. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Ebbie Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:19 PM "They deserve more respect than being used by a bunch of hate mongers to prove their point of view. Pathetic." (Emphasis mine EB) Publishing a litany of easily obtained facts is not hate mongering, DougR, convenient as it may be to ignore those facts. There is not one thing nonfactual in that list. To object to the airing of those facts borders on the hysterical, imo. (Guest, you are right about the title of the thread. I should have alluded to the war.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Amos Date: 08 Sep 04 - 03:52 PM miasma of denigration and recrimination Great turn of phrase, pal. But the only recrimination I offer is that against unilateral destruction of human life. And lying to those who place their trust in you. Maybe those things are okay with you. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: George Papavgeris Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:06 PM Doug R, you cause me to come out of my self-imposed silence with your last post. 1000+ dead further down the line - and is American freedom any more secure today? Has the threat to America disappeared, or has it grown? And has the supply of oil been secured, or has it skyrocketed to past 40 dollars a barrel? What on earth HAS been achieved for the loss of those 1000+ lives? Or would we have been better off having those thousand-plus brothers and sisters alive today? |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,amergin Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:15 PM DougR, how come is it that more and more soldiers that have been sent over there are becoming angry at your favourite administration? If they were fighting for our freedom (instead of Bush's greedom) how come they are not happy to do their duty for their country? Why are they becoming so disillusioned? |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,amergin Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:18 PM Oh and one more thing, it is more disgraceful, more distasteful, more dishonourable, to maintain the lie of why our young men and women are dying and coming home with body parts missing or their minds shattered, or just changed in unseen ways, than it is to tell the truth of why they suffer so. To hide these truths in the shadows is always shameful and it brings unwarranted shame to those who have suffered so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: DougR Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:36 PM SRS: your post would have been more meaningful had you added, "IMO." I say Iraq had everything to do with terrorism even if Saddam cannot be directly tied to 9/11. Read the report of the 911 commission if you haven't already, and I question that you have. There is ample proof presented in that report that Saddam's representatives met with Al Quieda members, that one of OBL's chief aides recovered in Iraq after being injured, that Saddam paid the families of suicide bombers $25,000 in rewards for their loved ones strapping on bombs and blowing up innocent people, that there were Al Quieda training camps in Iraq, etc. etc. etc. The fact that many of you limit terrorist attacks to 9/11 seems to me to be ample proof that you still have not grasped that this is a global war we are in. It's as though 9/11 was the very first time the U. S. was attacked by AQ. Give me a break. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: George Papavgeris Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:46 PM Let it be as you say, DougR - I won't argue. Let us each see what we see. But you still haven't answered my question: Are we better off for those sacrifices? Is the world a better, safer place? GWB has declared the objective reached - what have we reach? Or rather, what will we reap? |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,GROK Date: 08 Sep 04 - 05:59 PM " . . . you still have not grasped that this is a global war we are in." Doug, I don't recall anyone appointing the USA to be the cops of the world. My country contributed to the Gulf War because it was UN sanctioned. This war is US sanctioned. That is why my country is not helping. You have a very limited view of what the conflict there is about. It is about strategic and tactical placement for the future siezure of oil fields. Little more, little less. This is a global war that the US is in. Many good countries don't see things your way Doug. Many. Ebbie, thank you for starting this thread. I really had no idea the numbers were so high. We don't hear too much about the dead kids, and we hear nothing about the wounded. And we hear little about dead Iraqis either. It's about time we at least heard. Now, I don't doubt some AH will be quoting Napoleon and his "ya can't make omelets without cracking eggs" bullshit. They ain't eggs; they're humans. GROK |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,GROK Date: 08 Sep 04 - 08:25 PM And another thing: this propensity that seems to have grown during the history of human conflit to call children 'soldiers' does not make them any less children when they are shot or maimed. The world should not be doing this to its kids. Period. And that means your part of the world, too, Doug. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: SINSULL Date: 08 Sep 04 - 09:42 PM "I say Iraq had everything to do with terrorism even if Saddam cannot be directly tied to 9/11. Read the report of the 911 commission if you haven't already, and I question that you have. There is ample proof presented in that report that Saddam's representatives met with Al Quieda members, that one of OBL's chief aides recovered in Iraq after being injured, that Saddam paid the families of suicide bombers $25,000 in rewards for their loved ones strapping on bombs and blowing up innocent people, that there were Al Quieda training camps in Iraq, etc. etc. etc." OK Doug. So why have we not invaded Saudi Arabia? The bringing down of the World Trade Center which precipitated the invasion of Iraq was carried out by mostly Saudis. Osama Bin Laden is Saudi. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Once Famous Date: 08 Sep 04 - 09:56 PM Let's get the Saudi's next! Unbelievable whining here and no one is remembering the over 3000 Americans dead from these Arab asshole terrorists in NYC, Washington, and a field in Pennsylvania. They are licking their chops if Kerry gets in. They won't fuck with us as long as Bush is in there and that is OK with me. DougR, you do not stand alone. I believe that there is more than half a country who feels the way you do and last I heard it was about 11% or so more than half. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,GROK Date: 08 Sep 04 - 09:59 PM The BIG money's on Bush. The SMART money's on Kerry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Bert Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:18 PM ...They won't fuck with us as long as Bush is in there... Hmmm - I thought Bush WAS in in 2001. And now due Bush being IN we've lost another 1000. And Doug, Sure Saddam massacred a lot of his own people but that didn't stop Daddy Bush from being involved (as Vice Pres.) in selling him intelligence information. If we were to spend a fraction of the money that this war has cost to educate people on the REALITY that most Moslems are nice ordinary folk just trying to make a living then perhaps the extremists wouldn't get so much support. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Once Famous Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:43 PM The nice ordinary folk Moslems are a minority and scared to death to speak out. That small minority has not been to jihad school. The other millions of infidel hating nothing to lose Moslem world far out number those folks. Yeah, Bush was in in 2001. Do you really think if Gore was in they wouldn't have attacked us? I think they would have attacked us again! I kind of like the fact that they haven't since and I really do believe they won't as long as we show them who's boss. Which we are. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Bobert Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:51 PM Dougie, As fir all the questions that folks are asking you: When in doubt, pick "C"........... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Stilly River Sage Date: 08 Sep 04 - 10:54 PM DougR, I listened to all of the 9-11 Commission hearings, and have read substantive summaries of the report. (Are you familiar with KERA-FM--I think you live in this same area--the hearings ran during the spring and summer). Who gets their hands on a document that big and reads it? I didn't, and I'll wager you didn't--you get your spin from the FOX news channel. And they have spun that report around and made nonsense of it. Didn't you listen to the conclusions of the commission? There are no substantive connections between bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. They were able to show feelers only, but the report showed that Bin Laden thought Hussein was an abomination to the Muslim faith and world and didn't want to have anything to do with him. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Lonesome EJ Date: 09 Sep 04 - 12:15 AM Rich Man's War Jimmy joined the army 'cause he had no place to go There ain't nobody hirin' 'round here since all the jobs went down to Mexico Reckoned that he'd learn himself a trade maybe see the world Move to the city someday and marry a black haired girl Somebody somewhere had another plan Now he's got a rifle in his hand Rollin' into Baghdad wonderin' how he got this far Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man's war Bobby had an eagle and a flag tattooed on his arm Red white and blue to the bone when he landed in Kandahar Left behind a pretty young wife and a baby girl A stack of overdue bills and went off to save the world Been a year now and he's still there Chasin' ghosts in the thin dry air Meanwhile back at home the finance company took his car Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man's war When will we ever learn When will we ever see We stand up and take our turn And keep tellin' ourselves we're free Ali was the second son of a second son Grew up in Gaza throwing bottles and rocks when the tanks would come Ain't nothin' else to do around here just a game children play Somethin' 'bout livin' in fear all your life makes you hard that way He answered when he got the call Wrapped himself in death and praised Allah A fat man in a new Mercedes drove him to the door Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man's war - Steve Earle |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:50 AM ...the Democrats want to fix that LEJ...they want to reinstate the draft with no college deferment, no running off to Canada, so that (get this) the U.S Army will be more equal, class-wise. What a crock. Rich kids fighting for oil right alongside poor kids, who historically have joined up voluntarily in order to take advantage of opportunities (to learn a skill or a trade, or to get money for college). Whoever gets elected in November, I'm not holding my breath that this war will end anytime soon. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:58 AM DougR wrote: "1000+ dead further down the line" What is it with some(note I said some) Americans (and I include the media in that sweeping generalisation) that ignores every other nationality, especially the Iraqis, a great many of whom were innocent, who have died. The loss of ANY life is to be regretted. Take some responsibility for the policies and actions you condone - you are as responsible as the soldier who pulls the trigger. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Terry Allan Hall Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:18 AM MG, "they" won't f*** with us because Bu$h and the House of Saud and the bin Ladens have business ties that go back many, many years. Has it escaped your attention that Bu$h has lost interest in ObL? It's ALL about the greenbacks, nothing else. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,TIA Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:36 AM Tonight at 8:00 PM, people all over the country will be gathering SILENTLY (no partisanship, speeches, or chanting allowed) in candle light vigils to honour the >1,000 dead. Find the one nearest you if you wish. find vigil |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,TIA Date: 09 Sep 04 - 09:37 AM "the country", of course means USA in this instance. There are other countries after all.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Wolfgang Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:00 AM Can someone help me understanding what has happened in this thread? Has a post by Doug been eliminated? Amos attacks Doug who had not yet posted here on my screen, a quote is attributed to Doug but on my screen he has never written that? Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,GROK Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:14 AM At the risk of confusing the situation, I think that Amos' post (#4 from the top) may have been an 'open' address to Doug carried over from another thread. ????? |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: sledge Date: 09 Sep 04 - 10:19 AM I think Martins comment about Muslims is typical of him, a sweeping generalisation that can, in no way be proved. As personal experience is often given more credence than papers, tv etc on this forum, I would like to add mine. I have been working in Algeria, a country with a terrorist problem of its own, for just over five years, and I have enjoyed it. During that time none of the thousands of Algerians around me or my collegues have opened up a can of Jihad on our ass. Our work crew includes Americans (both North and South), Brits, Canadians, Italians, Hungarians, Dutch, Germans, French, Syrians, Norwegians, Russians and we all get on. Besides, those terrorists that want to kill Americans or any other nationality no longer have to go to the US or Europe, they have a nice big play ground in Iraq to do that courtesy of Bush, Blair and the like. Cheers Sledge |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Stilly River Sage Date: 09 Sep 04 - 11:24 AM Wolfgang, GROK is correct. Amos' post was an echo back to a different thread where DougR was arguing a similar point. The numbers-game that GUEST noted is quite appropriate here. The numbers dead from all nations in this conflict should also be noted in the American media, but the media have blinders on regarding anyone who falls into the "Other" category. Yesterday NPR did have a brief discussion as to the numbers all around, including the information that while there are over 1000 dead now, there are many thousands of American troops who have been wounded (something around 7000). I didn't hear/don't know numbers for non-Americans combatants and civilians wounded vs. killed. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Amos Date: 09 Sep 04 - 12:24 PM Wolfgang, my remark to Doug was in reference to various past remarks of his on different threads but on similar topics. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Amos Date: 09 Sep 04 - 12:50 PM the Associated Press reported yesterday about 10,000 residents of Baghdad have been killed since the invasion--that includes militants, civilians, and victims of crimes. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: robomatic Date: 09 Sep 04 - 01:57 PM The insurgency opposition we've run into in Afghanistan and Iraq is not the kind that I want to run into any closer to home. We are doing the world's dirty work, and it's a shame the world isn't doing more on its own to help out. I'm not saying the world has to join us militarily. I'm saying the world should pay a lot more attention to security issues and issues we're all going to face such as Iranian and North Korean nuclear weapons capability. I'm going to repeat something I wrote elsewhere, an analogy I made to a film called: The Caine Mutiny with Humphrey Bogart in a memorable role as a badly unhinged ship's captain in WWII. His officers take control of the ship away from him and are courtmartialed for it. Their defense lawyer played by Jose Ferrer is pretty abusive toward them but he gets them off by putting so much pressure on the captain that he falls apart on the witness stand. As they are celebrating their not guilty verdict he shows up drunk and tells them off. The world was fighting for its civilized life, he says, and while they had a defective leader, they could have made do with him if they'd gotten together to support him instead of cutting him off at the knees. Instead, the effort they could have made to defeat the enemy was turned in on itself. That's how I see the lack of support from France, Germany, and Russia in particular. Bush is not a great leader, and he isn't 'right' on a lot of things but he's the guy we've got for now; the US deserved more support than it got, and that support could have been modulated to make Bush a whole lot more easy to live with. I think he deserved that much. And while the specific WMD assertions that were made were not backed up after we moved into Iraq, there is no proof that Bush lied to us. (I'm not going so far as to defend all the other guys in the US information system, there are some incompetent folk there). As for the insurgency in Iraq, I think there are powerful forces maintaining it with money and weapons. Those forces are primed to install a repressive regime once we move out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: DougR Date: 09 Sep 04 - 02:01 PM SRS: you are DEAD wrong. I bought the 9/11 Commission's Report the day it was available at Barnes and Noble, and I have read it. It appears to me that you are getting YOUR information from the media rather than from the official source. Listening to the testimony does not provide you the whole story. But what matter. You are one of the principal USA bashers here on the Mudcat come what may. If something goes wrong in the world, no doubt about it, Americans should look in the mirror because it is WE who have caused it. Yet, when other countries turn for help when they need it, where do they turn to? And who provides it? The American people. And the poster is right. No one appointed the US world police. But one question: when policing becomes necessary, who is going to do it if the US doesn't? DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: DougR Date: 09 Sep 04 - 02:02 PM El Greko: Sorry, I didn't address your question to me. Yes, I think we are safer than we were prior to 9/11. Yes, I think the world is safer because Saddam is sitting in a jail cell somewhere in Iraq. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 09 Sep 04 - 02:23 PM Cost of Sadamm murdering innocents: 200,000 lives+ Cost of heat wave in France: 15,000 lives Cost of 9/11 3,000 lives Cost of liberating 50 million people 1,000 lives + Cost of mudcatter agnony after Bush re-election- Priceless A few comments on the "facts" presented above: No weapons of mass destruction- we found saran gas, mustard gas, long range missles, hidden laboratories, plans for making WMD's, and even some anthrax. I guess none of that counts. No ties between Sadamm and Al Queda- the number three man in Al Queda has his leg amputated in Sadamm's hospital and then was given haven in Iraq. Several meetings documented between Sadamm and Al Queda- mostly an on again/off again relationship-kind of like a Kerry postion on anything. ABSOLUTE connection between Sadamm and Hamas, Hezboleh and islamic Jihad- the terrorist "B" team. 0 captures of Ossama- but one capture of Sadamm and Uday and Ebay are dead ay. (sorry- I couldn't resist) And about 75% of al queday have been captured or killed. And 43 of the 52 most wanted in Iraq have been captured or killed. 0 free election in Iraq- it took 8 years in Germany to have a free election. Iraq will be 7 years quicker. Their government is already recognized by the UN. How many free election in Bosnia since Milosivech was removed? And that was how many year ago? Lastly: 0 attacks on US soil since Bush took preemmptive action 1 former terrorist nation reformed (Lybia) without firing a shot 2 nations (France and Russia) exposed in the oil for food scandal 3 leaders (Putin/Musharif/Momar) have "seen the light" about terrorism 4. more years of Bush |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 09 Sep 04 - 03:44 PM surely DougR gets enough stick without Amos laying into him before he's even posted? Anyway, I'm kind of glad he's no longer a lone voice here, because a sizeable proportion of Americans obviously think as he does (so far as such a stance can result from "thought"). The miniscule finds that Larry's alking about didn't add up to a row of beans, which is why not even Bush/Cheney have claimed they found WMD. WMD PROGRAMS are something else entirely - never offered to the UN by Powell as a basis for starting a war, and with good reason. Both US and UN experts are pretty much agreed that Iraqi infrastructure after the earlier war, the effect of sanctions and the chaos-inducing nature of the Saddam regime over the past 10 years militated against any prospect of developing a serious program. I hope the report on which Doug relies (and which I have not read) is honest enough to make clear that any training facility or other co-operation with Al Qaeda was confined to those havens in which Saddam's writ did not run - ie the no-fly zones. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: katlaughing Date: 09 Sep 04 - 08:29 PM NYTimes Roster of the Dead |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Peace Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:25 PM The weakness in the logic that the world is safer today because Hussein is sitting in jail: Why then is the world still nervous? Has the terrorist threat lessened with all that Bush has done? That's a question seeking an answer. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: beardedbruce Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:44 PM Safer does not mean safe. Why did the US go to war against Germany in WWII? They did not attack us, Japan did. By the logic here, we should not have been in Europe, at all. Oh, you say that Germany declared war on us? Well, guess what: The attack on Kuwait was a declaration of war- and as I stated in previous threads, there was no end to that war- see the reference to no-fly zones above- Armed flights over another country, shooting down their aircraft, and bombing any anti-air sites that lock up are not exactly peaceful. Even Kerry ( at one point, before he flipped/flopped) agreed that with what was known AT THE TIME, we should have attacked Iraq. If we had done so 6 months earlier, can anyone here say that we would be worse off? People here keep saying to look at the money trail for all the attack ads- but never look at the money trail for the violators of the UN sanctiona against Iraq. See who was making mony off Saddam- then tell me we should have waited until the French agreed to an attack. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 11 Sep 04 - 09:55 PM "The attack on Kuwait was a declaration of war" On the US? I don't understand. Why didn't Mr Bush mention that instead of carrying on about WMDs and all that other fooferaw? I'd have thought a declaration of war on us would be enough. Mr Bush has said that there's no connection between Iraq and 911. though mr Cheney seems to differ.. Why did he interrupt the search for bin Laden, who was connected to 911 in order it attack Iraq at the price of all these deaths? (I learned just lately that troops were withdrawn from the Afghanistan conflict and sent to Iraq.) Explain, please. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Bert Date: 12 Sep 04 - 06:06 AM Martin, You say "The nice ordinary folk Moslems are a minority and scared to death to speak out". That wasn't my experience. I worked for over seven years in the Middle East and met hundreds of nice ordinary folk Moslems and never met one extremist. And most of those that I knew didn't have any problem discussing their religion politely and intelligently or speaking out. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:10 AM Why did the US go to war against Germany in WWII? So asks beardedbruce. It continues to amaze me that millions of Americans don't know the answer to that question. It wasn't anything to do with Churchill's pleading. And congress would not heed Roosevelt's advice either. The fact is that the US did NOT "go to war against Germany" at all. Hitler declared war on the US. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:39 AM And Iraq, in attacking Kuwait, which had treaty ties to the US, declared war on US. THAT was my point. "Mr Bush has said that there's no connection between Iraq and 911. though mr Cheney seems to differ.. Why did he interrupt the search for bin Laden, who was connected to 911 in order it attack Iraq at the price of all these deaths? And why did we interrupt the war on Japan to attack Germany? You are implying that we should have just fought in the Pacific- yet we used vast resources in Europe that could have defeated Japan. Just possibly we have to look at the larger view. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:15 AM Peter K (Fionn) - ". The fact is that the US did NOT "go to war against Germany" at all. Hitler declared war on the US. " and I said that. "Oh, you say that Germany declared war on us? Well, guess what: The attack on Kuwait was a declaration of war" |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: sledge Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:57 AM BB, look at what happened during the few months following Germany's declaration of war against the USA, U-boats decimated allied shipping on the east coast showing what a dangerous foe they were, one that could reach out to the US mainland almost, just try and look at the old newsreel footage that shows bodies and wreckage on Florida beaches, this was a shock to the US, one they weren't ready for. The Germans had greater rescouces and technology than Japan, they would have been able to deploy this against the US sooner or later if they had been left alone, it made sense to remove them first, even if most people couldn't see this at the time. I can see what you are saying here but I don't see it as holding up. Just a quick question, did Kuwait and the US actually have a defense pact or was it just assumed? Cheers Sledge |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:07 AM sledge: Look at it this way: "The Iragis had greater rescouces and technology than Al Queda, they would have been able to deploy this against the US sooner or later if they had been left alone, it made sense to remove them first, even if most people couldn't see this at the time." IMHO, the information that was availible at the time, from British, Russian, and US sources ( now suspect, but so what- one has to act on what one has) indicated that Iraq presented a "clear and present danger" to the US. In even giving the UN the time to act that Bush did, he was NOT acting in the best interests of the US. And I cannot consider those who protested the US actions against Iraq to be for peace- if they were, WHY did none of them ask Saddam to comply with the UN resoulutions of the previous 12 years? Not one sign, that I could see- but a lot telling the US not to act. As for the treaties with Kuwait, I will be honest- I do not know. But we had UN resolutions there, just as we did in Korea. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: sledge Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:42 AM In that case, the resolutions post date the initial war, rendering the whole analogy invalid. As for any Iraqi threat to hit the US, even after a war that was a stunning humiliation for Iraq, they had never made any move to strike the US, or did they,? I am sure you will tell me. Was their infrastructure even capable of doing so anymore anymore? the most they did was switch on a few radars and make a few catch me if you can flights into the no fly zones, more of a move to salvage some self respect than any kind of threat. I just think that the whole response by the Bush administration was excessive, so he ignored a few UN resolutions, thats not something that new in the history of the UN, the US was as one point in serious debt to the UN by failing to pay up its financial obligations to the tune of $365 million in the early 90's, this of course was period when Washington sort of liked the UN thanks to their support following the invasion of Kuwait, they only did so "when they saw fit" but not enough to counter their eventual debt of around $1.5 billion. Obligations to the UN should be a 2 way street then, resolutions or not I think. The size of this debt has been part of US goverment policy for quite a while, when the US could command a majority in the UN which they did for some time, only those unfriendly to the US were pressured for payment as was the case with the Soviet union. However as their influance waned they sought to regain it by refusing to pay, putting pressure on the UN that way. Its a big stick to carry. While there are other countries who are in arrears none are ever as in debt as the US, who, could more easily settle her debt. Sledge |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: sledge Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:54 AM As an aside, the US action in Afghanistan was one I fully supported, I felt that the ties between the Taliban and Al-queda were such that they were almost the same organisation and as such were as culpable as each other in the atrocity that was 9/11. Regards Sledge |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Amos Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:14 AM If the money that was channeled into the military expedition against Iraq had been instead spent on infrastructure (roads, water, pipelines, schools and plumbing) in Afghanistan, it could have been turned into a Model Muslim Democracy, if such is possible, and the envy of Middle Eastern nations. THAT would have reduced extremism and won some hearts and minds. How come Rove and his puppet were too stupid to change history that way instead of the old way (invasion and violence) which has failed for centuries? A |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:14 AM not sure I understand: "In that case, the resolutions post date the initial war, rendering the whole analogy invalid." In both Kuwait and Korea, one side invaded the other, and then the UN passed resolutions authorizing force. "As for any Iraqi threat to hit the US, even after a war that was a stunning humiliation for Iraq, they had never made any move to strike the US, or did they,? I am sure you will tell me. " Have you read the British report on the Iraqi capacity for WMD, or seen the news about the Russian warning that Iraq was planning to attack the US? REGARDLESS of how true they were, they were the best information that was available- and after 9/11, to NOT act at a credible threat would have been irrisponsible, and met with far more noise here than the war has. One CANNOT blame Bush for NOT acting on the information about 9/11, before the act, and then blame him for acting on information that I would say was more credible and substantiated about Iraq. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:26 AM Excuse me: I misspoke in my last statement. One can blame Bush, if one is more interested in being part of the problem than of the solution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: sledge Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:05 PM BB, What I meant to put over was that you stated there were some agreements between Kuwait and the USA, when I asked what they might be you stated that you were not sure but that there were UN resolutions in place. These resolution came into after the invasion of Kuwait and as such bears no place in your analogy whereby you say that Iraq effectivley declared war on the USA because of existing treaty obligations with Kuwait. So with the UN resloutions in force, if they had done it again then I would of course be wrong. I may be wrong, certainly in your eyes I am, but I do blame Bush jr, surely the leader of the most powerful military nation on the planet with all the destrucive potential at his command could have forced compliance through more peaceful means, UN inspectors etc. I know they worked slowly which you don't seem to like but they did not lead to countless deaths as they worked, they may have cost a few millions of dollars, but a lot less than all the bomb and missiles dropped to date. Didn't Hans Blick the UN appointed weapons inspector say that there were no WMD, surely that should have been enough for most rational people. Even Scott Ritter, someone who seemd quite dedicated stated that the weapons were no longer there, ok so his information was dated but so was that included in the UK government report, remember the dubious inclusion of a dated student thesis. Bruce, you also critisize those who said Bush "don't do it", but try not to be to hard on them, I am sure that each time a news report starts with "another coalition soldier was killed today" they derive no satisfaction from being proved right to a degree, in fact those who were most vocal are, I imagine deeply saddened each time it happens, I know I am. Sledge |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:48 PM Beardedbruce, under what treaty was an attack on Kuwait an attack on the US? Wise up. And on what basis do you say IMHO, the information that was availible at the time, from British, Russian, and US sources ( now suspect, but so what- one has to act on what one has)[my emphasis]? I don't know about the US, but certainly for the UK it was something of a first to kick off a war on the basis of intelligence alone. There was surely an obligation to make sure the intelligence was based on something before setting about the slaughter of innocent people in their thousands? Simply "to act on what one has" is just crass stupidity. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:49 PM and 9/11 was something of a first... You have a call from 2 neighbors and someone living with you that a known criminal who has violated parole before has a gun and is about to attack your house. How much investigation do you do before you call the police? Read the Senate report- the administration thought that the information was valid. Simply to NOT act on the information one has is even greater stupidity. IMHO means In My Honest Opinion. Yours may be different- but on what basis would you IGNORE such information? |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:34 PM "You have a call from 2 neighbors and someone living with you that a known criminal who has violated parole before has a gun and is about to attack your house. How much investigation do you do before you call the police?" In this case, the police inspected the neighbor's house and said he didn't have a gun. Mr Bush then had his people attack the house, destroying a good deal of it, and killed the neighbor's children and some other people who were staying there, though not the neifghbor. What they call "Lynch Law." At the cost of the lives of many of Mr Bush's own people. An attack on Kuwait was not a declaration of war on the US. GWB or Cheney would have made a point of mentioning it, and they wouldn't have needed the WMD pretext. clint |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: Peace Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:38 PM "but on what basis would you IGNORE such information?" That would be a good question to ask the FBI and CIA. They did ignore information, as did Bush I think, and they could answer that, bb. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:49 PM so, having found out thatthey had ignored the information about 9/11, you would want them to have ignored what they had on Iraq??????????? As I said, if you want them to have acted about 9/11, on poor intelligence, you can't reasonably complain when they did act on Iraq. Unless your point is to deny that the US is EVER right in it's actions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,brucie Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:53 PM You want the bread buttered on both sides. That's why it's hard to hold. The US was right in the Gulf War. It was NOT right this time to do with Iraq. And look at what you are saying. The intelligence source was the same for both 9/11 AND Iraq this time. Sooner or later, yer gonna get a sore foot if you keep putting rounds in it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Sep 04 - 04:58 PM "The US was right in the Gulf War. It was NOT right this time to do with Iraq." FROM what we knew at the time, it WAS right. "And look at what you are saying. The intelligence source was the same for both 9/11 AND Iraq this time. " So we should have paid attention for 9/11, and ignored it on Iraq??? It sounds like YOU are the one shooting yourself in the foot. We were WRONG to have ignored it before 9/11, but there was a different mindset- we were innocent, and did not think that things like that could happen to us. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,brucie Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:07 PM Oklahoma City didn't teach y'all anything? |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: beardedbruce Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:09 PM nope. We STILL don't really believe that such things can happen to us- and I expect they will again, before we really understand. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,brucie Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:44 PM I think there are two issues that are not at all connected. 1) Terrorism and 'pending' attacks on countries around the world. 2) Iraq. One doesn't have anything to do with the other. |
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Subject: RE: BS: One Thousand Gone From: GUEST,laurine Date: 18 Oct 06 - 11:05 PM who sings mothers love is a blessing |
