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Origins: Cadgwith Anthem

DigiTrad:
BEAUTY OF KASHMIR
BEAVER DAM ROAD
CADGWITH ANTHEM
COME FILL UP YOUR GLASSES (Robbers)
THE CANDLEFORD ANTHEM


Related threads:
Cadgwith Anthem - what's that flower? (57)
Lyr Req: Cadgwith Anthem (35)
Lyr Req: Cadgwith Anthem (from Steeleye Span) (7)


Tradsinger 27 Oct 05 - 03:34 PM
Hawker 27 Oct 05 - 03:13 PM
Tradsinger 27 Oct 05 - 02:19 PM
Hawker 26 Oct 05 - 07:18 PM
Hawker 26 Oct 05 - 07:01 PM
Les in Chorlton 26 Oct 05 - 05:17 PM
GUEST,Dick Goddard 26 Oct 05 - 04:24 PM
Dead Horse 21 Sep 04 - 04:10 PM
GUEST,Glos Bill 21 Sep 04 - 08:10 AM
BB 21 Sep 04 - 05:02 AM
sapper82 20 Sep 04 - 03:02 PM
Bates from Birregurra 20 Sep 04 - 03:37 AM
Wotcha 14 Sep 04 - 02:03 AM
GUEST,Rowan 14 Sep 04 - 12:26 AM
Ron Davies 13 Sep 04 - 09:59 PM
Nerd 13 Sep 04 - 08:22 PM
8_Pints 13 Sep 04 - 06:55 PM
John MacKenzie 13 Sep 04 - 02:35 PM
John MacKenzie 13 Sep 04 - 01:45 PM
GUEST,MMario 13 Sep 04 - 12:23 PM
Cats 13 Sep 04 - 12:15 PM
Snuffy 13 Sep 04 - 09:29 AM
Marion in Cornwall 13 Sep 04 - 06:54 AM
John MacKenzie 13 Sep 04 - 05:52 AM
Georgiansilver 13 Sep 04 - 04:23 AM
Malcolm Douglas 12 Sep 04 - 10:48 PM
Bates from Birregurra 12 Sep 04 - 09:59 PM
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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Tradsinger
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 03:34 PM

Hi Lucy,

No. Kashmire was just a typo. The pronunciation is the same. I don't think we're any nearer finding the origin of this song. There seems to be no trace of it before 1953, and it could be a local composition that didn't travel out of the village. The pub used to sell a wonderful cassette of the singing there. I don't know if they still do.

Gwilym


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Hawker
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 03:13 PM

Hi Tradsinger I also made that comment in my first bit where it states that Tommy Morrisey used to sing The beautiful Kashmir - as you have spelt it differently are you saying that the pronounciation is different too? There is always the possibility that it could be an abomination of another maybe old Cornish word - or it could be a songwriter of old just having a laugh at out expense as we years on try to make sense of it!
Cheers, Lucy


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Tradsinger
Date: 27 Oct 05 - 02:19 PM

Just to add to the debate on "The beauty of Kashmire" - in Cadgwith they sing "the beautiful Kashmire". What's all that about, then? The Roud index indicates that this is the only collected version of the song, which he calls "The Robber's Retreat".

Gwilym


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Hawker
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 07:18 PM

Me again, just been on the DCLI website history pages and found this

"This regiment was first raised in 1702 as Fox's Regiment of Marines, then numbered as the 32nd Foot in 1751. In 1782 it was designated the 32nd, or Cornwall, Regiment then in 1858 it was named the 32nd, or Cornwall, Light Infantry. In 1881 it was renamed as the Duke of Cornwall's Light Infantry.

During 1884, the D.C.L.I. was stationed at Dublin, where its men would be sent after four months training at the newly-built depot at Bodmin, Cornwall. The Regimental Museum has photographs of all the recruits of the time, but unfortunately, they are not named. In 1885, the First Battalion moved to Malta, and three years later, on 18th February 1888, they moved to India, arriving in Madras on 7th March.

In 1890, rebellion broke out in Burma, led by a tribe known as the Tsawbaws. The First Battalion were moved to Mandalay, and the following year took part in what became known as the Wunthoo Expedition which successfully quelled the revolt.

They then returned to India, doing garrison duty successively at Pur and Roorkee (1893), Chakrata and Meerut (1894) and Lucknow (1896). In 1897 a campaign was fought on the North-West Frontier in which the Battalion took part in the Tirrah expedition, seeing active service in Tirrah and the Bara Valley.

During the next two years they were stationed at Peshawar, Rawal Pindi and Lucknow (1898-1899) and Calcutta and Dum-Dum (1900).

In 1901, prisoners of war from South Africa were shipped over to Ceylon to hastily constructed camps, and the First Battalion was given the task of guarding them. The following year they sailed for South Africa as part of the army of occupation, and were stationed at Stellenbosch (1902), Middleburg and Cape Colony (1903) and Wynberg (1904-05).

In 1906, the Battalion returned to England where they were initially quartered at Crownhill Barracks, Plymouth. From there they moved to Woolwich (1907), Gravesend (1908-1910) and Tidworth (1911). In 1913 they were back in Ireland in Curragh and they mobilised for war on 5th August, 1914. They took part in every major battle on the Western Front."

Which ties in with them being stationed out there so who klnows........ (somebody MUST!)
Cheers, Lucy


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Hawker
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 07:01 PM

Just looked on Larkrise to Candleford album, not on there. (The Holmfirth Anthem - also known as Abroad For Pleasure is on the LP sung by Bill Caddick.)
Have found this song on "Cornish Folk Songs" Vol II by Sue White, "Pass Around The Grog" sung by Tommy Morrissey (Veteran) and on "21 Sopngs Of Cornwall" by Ian Marshall.
The story my husband who is a Cornishman has known since he was a teenager (many years ago!) was that a Cornish regiment which became the Duke Of Cornwall's Light Infantry (DCLI)was stationed on the NW Frontier of India. Some members of the regiment were falsely accused of pilfering. They were so indignant that the song was written in protest of their false accusation. It was also suspected that they utilised or modified a tune local to this region which has since been "Chapelised" (as all good Cornish tunes are) May be able to shed more light on this tomorrow! need to speak to another mine of useless information!!!!!!
It is not in Cornish and dialect Folk songs by Ralph Dunstan in 1932 - so it either slipped through the net then, was not popular then or was not written then!
will look into this more..... watch this space.
It is also not in Peter Kennedy's Folk Songs Of Britan and Ireland
It is in Mike O'Connors book "Songs The Cornish Love to sing - This song I'll sing to you" He attributes it to the singing of Tommy Morrisey who used to sing beautiful Kashmir rather than beauty of Kashmir.
Someone once told my old man that 'Beauty Of Kashmir' was a ship that ran aground on the 'Mannacles' just off St Keverne, and went down bows first known locally as 'by the head' don't believe this explaination to be true, but if it were it would certainly be documented somewhere!
Hope this adds to the confusion!
Cheers, Lucy


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 05:17 PM

I seem to remember a singer from they parts called Mervyn?

Did he not make up the odd verse?


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Dick Goddard
Date: 26 Oct 05 - 04:24 PM

Yes, I remember writing two extra verses to the anthem - and those nights in the Ringers were quite something! Charlie, Joan, Purdy, we miss you!


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Dead Horse
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 04:10 PM

Ah! The booty of cash. Mere lies! (Snoopy, in bed)


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Glos Bill
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 08:10 AM

thought the beauty of kashmir was a poppy


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: BB
Date: 21 Sep 04 - 05:02 AM

I have always understood the 'Beauty of Kashmir' to be a rose, a characteristic of that particular variety being that the flowers hang down, i.e. 'drooping its head'.

Barbara


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: sapper82
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 03:02 PM

To John 'Giok' MacKenzie;
I would take the "Beauty of Kashmir" to be a rhodedendron (sp???) as that plant originates in the Himalayas.


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Bates from Birregurra
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 03:37 AM

G'day all

Thanks very much for your help, the day after I posted this request, I couldn't get on to Mudcat and I've been away from home since.

I appreciate the effort you've all put in, I've now dispelled the incongruity.

Cheers folks

Keith


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Wotcha
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 02:03 AM

Hi Marion!

Send regards to John.

Time to visit The Cove Inn for a Friday night session with the Cadgwith "fishermen." I highly commend this venue: folk tradition at its best. A bit of a drive since Cadgwith is one of the last stops before you get to the Lizard.

Cheers,

Brian


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,Rowan
Date: 14 Sep 04 - 12:26 AM

No "History"; just a folk tale.
It was being sung in Melbourne in the late 60s, much the same as recorded later by Steeleye Span and, possibly, brought from the same source as theirs. When Steeleye Span performed in Canberra in '76 they sang it as their 'unaccompanied' item; I hadn't heard it for some years and was so carried away I joined in. Their mixer, stationed about 8m away, got rather agitated searching his desk for the channel he couldn't control but nobody else seemed to notice.


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:59 PM

Had a girlfriend who used to say Cadgwith Anthem should be called "Botanists Gone Bad".


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 08:22 PM

Given how recent the song is, the Steeleye recording may well predate that chapel style of performance...


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: 8_Pints
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 06:55 PM

We attended a benefit night for two lifeboat men lost at sea some six years ago.

All the lifeboat fraternity from around the Cornish coast seemed to be there and of course sang this wonderful song.

My good friend Brian Pengelly of Redruth predicted that the verses would be sung at a cracking pace but the chorus would be slowed right down to luxuriate in the harmonies.

"Just like an organ!" he would say.

The Steeleye recordings don't capture this Chapel style of performance.

Pity!!!

Bob vG


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 02:35 PM

This too Old thread
Giok


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 01:45 PM

Look under Lark Rise to Candleford or try this, Albion Band
Giok


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: GUEST,MMario
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 12:23 PM

the midi file appears to be missing


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Cats
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 12:15 PM

The original song only has 2 verses. Most of the others were written in the Stable Bar of the Ring of Bells at St Issey may day 1979. The challemnge was you could not go to bed until you had written another verse. Many of the verses stil sung come from the pens of John Purdy, Jon Heslop and Dick Goddard.


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Snuffy
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 09:29 AM

Yet another version in the DT as THE CANDLEFORD ANTHEM, but I have failed to find a Candleford in Britain.


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Marion in Cornwall
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 06:54 AM

In Canow Kernow, edited by Inglis Gundry, it's under the title "The Robbers' Retreat - The Cadgwith Anthem". It says it was 'Sung by a group of local fishermen at Cadgwith, 1956 and recorded by Peter Kennedy. The foot-note says:
'The singers described this song as "just given to us by the old friends gone by." There was "no music attached to it", but John Henry Jane was said to be "the first man who sang it in this bar".'

It is still sung in Cadgwith and there are still members of the Jane family living there.

Best Wishes
Marion


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:52 AM

A variety of rose I'm told.
Giok


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 04:23 AM

I believe that it is considered a traditional song but was devised by a group of Cadgwith residents who got together to produce a Folk Song for the town. The first record of it being performed was in 1953 by the Cornish Fishermans choir. Whether it was composed before then seems to be a matter of conjecture. It's history is rather vague. The beauty of Kashmir, refers to a flower.
Best wishes.


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Subject: RE: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 10:48 PM

See, in the DT:

CADGWITH ANTHEM  Text and tune. No source specified for either.

BEAUTY OF KASHMIR  Much shorter text from a Steeleye Span record. No tune given or previous source named.

COME FILL UP YOUR GLASSES (Robbers)  The same short text, this time a bit oddly spelled, from the same Steeleye Span record. No tune given or previous source named.

In the Forum:

Lyr req: Caves/Beauty of Kashmir  -includes some speculation on "the beauty of kashmir / cashmere".

Peter Kennedy recorded the song from the Cadgwith Fishermen's Choir in 1953; Steeleye Span appear to have recorded an arrangement based on that, though they don't seem to have bothered to credit their source. Whether it's a particularly old song I don't know, but on the whole I doubt it.


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Subject: History behind the Cadgwith Anthem
From: Bates from Birregurra
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:59 PM

I've been trying to find out more about the origins of the Cadgwith Anthem, so far I've found out that Cadgwith is in Cornwall, but the reference to the beauty of Cashmir seems incongruous, can anyone help please.

Cheers

Keith Maxwell


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