BS: What if America was like Iraq?

Subject: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 10:14 AM

What would America be like if the same kinds of things were happening here as are taking place daily in Iraq? Here is an interesting article I found that puts this question into perspective.

If America were Iraq, What Would It be Like?

And our current leadership brags about how we are bringing freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people. This thread definitely belongs in BS.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 10:48 AM

Exactly!

911 was horrific. We had a little taste of what the U.S. has been doing to other countries for decades. Its easy to justify war when it is so far away.

d

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 03:43 PM

To quote from Hugh McFadden's new collection, Pieces of Time:

SOFT MACHINES IN IRAQ

And the Sky News announcer asks:
"Is there a risk in this war
to the soft-skinned vehicles?"
There sure is. Saw some of them
lying on the bloodied ground,
their soft skins burnt to a cinder
arms, legs, skulls - all just carbon.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 03:59 PM

It's a shame he had to turn the sound up this time isn't it. He was listening to Elvis in a previous collection and hoping against hope.
Love his words.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 04:10 PM

This is one of the most stupid apples to oranges threads yet.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 05:17 PM

apples to oranges?

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 05:28 PM

What part of apples to oranges don't you unbderstand?

America is not like Iraq. The war is not here. Better it be fought there instead of here, don't you agree?

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 05:33 PM

Whether the war is fought in Iraq or here is very similar to the question "Is it cooler in our living room or on Tuesday?"

Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Or Oklahoma City. or...

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 05:37 PM

And you just absolutely know that for a fact, huh Dick? Your on the CIA and you just know what's going on, right? Not!

How about it had to do with Saddam Hussein in power as a ruthless dictator that I am just glad had to be taken out?

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: GUEST,jtt
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 05:48 PM

milk monitor, he's still listening to Elvis in some of these poems, though actually the message of this one had gone over my head until I read your post, and realised that he was seeing Elvis in these bleaker days, perhaps (if I'm not over-interpreting McFadden) as a symbolic America:

WAY DOWN ELVIS

Running way down a long dark tunnel
through the basement of his Las Vegas hotel
Elvis - in his white rhinestone jump suit -
in the middle of his Memphis Mafia
runs through a very black patch, headless
in the dark, heading for the Exit.

While out of the gloom there sings a voice:
"Ladies & gentlemen, Elvis has left the building."

-----

It's a fabulous collection. Published by Lapwing Press in Belfast. Dunno if you can get it outside Ireland, though.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 05:52 PM

And of course the post above this one is the ultimate reason that America is not like Iraq.

There is no one saying Mohammad has left the building.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 06:26 PM

The relevance of this is to bring home the scale of what is happening, and to try and guve a sense of proportion - a corrective to this kind of thing:

We had something like 200 or 300 or 400 people killed in the major cities of America and is that perfectly peaceful? No. What's the difference? We just didn't see every homicide in every major city in the United States on television every night."

That was the US Secretary of State for "defence", Donald Rumsfeld, shooting his mouth off the other day, trying to make out that Iraq is really doing fine these days, and there'll be no real problem in having a fair and free election in a couple of months.

But of course, when you multiply all the deaths of Iraqis and all the rest by a factor of ten, to make it comparable to the USA, the way that piece Alaska Mike gave us did, that reassurance just melts away.

Iraq and the USA are both roughly the same distance from where I live.
Innocent Iraqis getting killed, innocent Americans getting killed, I can't see any significant difference, or any reason to less unhappy about one than the other.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 06:27 PM

The relevance of this is to bring home the scale of what is happening, and to try and give a sense of proportion - a corrective to this kind of thing:

We had something like 200 or 300 or 400 people killed in the major cities of America and is that perfectly peaceful? No. What's the difference? We just didn't see every homicide in every major city in the United States on television every night."

That was the US Secretary of State for "defence", Donald Rumsfeld, shooting his mouth off the other day, trying to make out that Iraq is really doing fine these days, and there'll be no real problem in having a fair and free election in a couple of months.

But of course, when you multiply all the deaths of Iraqis and all the rest by a factor of ten, to make it comparable to the USA, the way that piece Alaska Mike gave us did, that reassurance just melts away.

Iraq and the USA are both roughly the same distance from where I live.
Innocent Iraqis getting killed, innocent Americans getting killed, I can't see any significant difference, or any reason to feel less unhappy about one than the other.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: GUEST,milk monitor
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 06:29 PM

JTT that's just how I read it, I mean he could have been listening to anyone, but he wasn't...and he doesn't waste a word.

Thanks for giving me the publisher, the bookshop at The Royal Festival Hall (attached to the Poetry Library) will have it I reckon, but if not they'll order it. I'm looking forward to it.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 06:59 PM

If America were just like Iraq... it would be occupied by an army that had invaded it on the pretext of ousting a dictator, killed tens of thousands of its citizens, and then, well, just stayed in occupation. It would have a puppet government answerable to that occupying power, whose decisions were immediately reversed by that power if they didn't suit the occupiers.

Its people would be divided between those trying to make a living under this terrifying occupation and those resisting the occupation - joined by others from outside the country who have come in to join the bloody fight.

Thousands of its people would have been arrested and effectively "disappeared" into jails from which photographs of abuse and reports of torture by the occupiers were pouring out.

All civil sanity would be disappearing, to be replaced by a bandit society in which anyone could be kidnapped (whether by occupiers acting "legally" or by bandit "freedom fighters" acting on their own orders) and might or might not reappear alive or dead.

It would be a country where all negotiation, all compromise and all decency would be dead and forgotten.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Alaska Mike
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 07:45 PM

Martin Gibson, I wasn't saying that I wanted the war fought here instead of Iraq. I started this thread to give people some idea of how chaotic and dangerous a place Iraq is right now. Under the hypothetical situation described in the article, America would be a horrible place to live. Yet our current president and his appointed lackey tell us that Iraq is doing fine, get rid of just a few undisciplined scamps and everything will be rosey. These guys are lying to us again and I'm sick and tired of their B.S.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 08:02 PM

Martin - Do you really believe that Iraq was responsible for 911? That definitely is comparing apples to oranges.

d

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: freightdawg
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 12:10 AM

How long was America unstable after our revolution? After the Civil War?

How long was Germany a quagmire after WWII? (especially with the superpowers fighting over its control?)

How long was Japan a danger to allied forces following its surrender?

How long have we been in Korea? Which is the safest and most productive country, North or South Korea?

How long have we been in Bosnia? Did the Clinton administration solve all the problems in Bosnia by putting us there (without the approval and against the objections of the UN?)

The point is that many people think Iraq should be a burgeoning democracy by now. That is just insane thinking. Iraq's leaders are working toward having free elections in January. Afghanistan will have elections this year or early next year. That is moving at light speed in terms of human relations.

John Kerry thinks that is a bad idea and he wants to pull us out so that the Baath party can find another Saddam Hussein and create another dictatorship. The overwhelming majority of Iraqis want freedom. They want to vote. They may vote in a Shiite majority, or they may vote in a Sunni majority, or they may split it somehow. A few violent assasins do not want democracy in any way, shape or form. Their vote is with car bombs and missiles. Because of them we want to give up on those who are paying with their lives for a chance at freedom?

And we sit thousands of miles away and criticise their attempts at freedom and self-determination because it is not on our time table???

No wonder the oppressed world hates us. We have our freedom but we do not give them enough credit to allow them to work toward theirs. We don't mind if they are slaughtered by Saddam Hussein, just don't let them be slaughtered by those who oppose freedom and democracy.

To me, that is what really sucks.

Freightdawg

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 12:15 AM

Mr. Gibson-

The CIA is my source for pointing out the lack of connection between Iraq and 9/11. Yes, Sadam was a brutal dictator. Do you really think, though, that the American public would have held still for a unilateral pre-emptive war against a country which posed no immediate threat to the US?

Please get real.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 02:01 AM

"How about it had to do with Saddam Hussein in power as a ruthless dictator that I am just glad had to be taken out?"

My, another armchair hero. Why haven't you been over there helping If you think this war is worth it? Or do you have any kids old enough?

If you can't get in the army there are civilian jobs. It might take you a little time to train as a nurse's aid, but, hey, it's a Just War and a Noble Endeavor. A loyal follower like you should be allowed to get some real blood on his hands.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 03:32 AM

Martin---cut two eyeholes in the red, white and blue. I did; it's amazing how much farther you can see.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Sep 04 - 07:23 AM

In May 2003 Bush declared that the war had been won. That's sixteen months ago. Compared to Iraq today, Germany, Japan and Bosnia sixteen months after the end of those wars, for all their continuing problems, were havens of peace.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 09:03 PM

Today our dead topped 1800. Just think where we'd be if our mission hadn't been so handily accomplished.


Report

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Donuel
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 09:16 PM

Please recall that Donald Rumsfeld has made this connection already when he repeatedly compared the US with Iraq by saying, "we have numerous murders in our big cities every day, and so does Iraq, its not that unusual!".

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 09:22 PM

As of June, 2005, there have been 13,189 American troops wounded. That is a DoD figure found here. Scroll about 3/4 of the way down the page.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Amos
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 11:16 PM

Thanks be to George Bush, Karl Rove, Mr. Wolfowitz, Mr Rumsfeld and all those who helped.

A

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 10:38 AM

If America was like Iraq?

Hmmm. Well, then it would have to be impoverished and wretched. It would have to have had no jurisdiction over its own air space for the last 10 years or so, and have been bombed on a pretty much daily basis during that time by various foreign powers. It would have to have been recently invaded by a superpower and a consortium of bribed and bullied hangers-on, including the vestiges of the former British Empire, which once had occupied it as a colony (!) but later had been driven out at the cost of many lives.

(is any of this sounding familiar?)

It would have to have been falsely accused of having Weapons of Mass Destruction and of menacing the entire World!

It would have to have had a leader whom people accused of being similar to Hitler!

It would have to be sitting on the World's biggest supply of oil. (Hmmmmm....)

It would have to have been falsely accused of being a base for Al Queda, when actually its government was a sworn enemy of Al Queda.

There's probably more...but that should do.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 09:42 AM

America invaded by foreign power!
Cities occupied, destroyed and genocide reported in certain towns.
Electricity remains compromised throughout the country.
American freedom fighters begin resistence.
Foreign warlord president says "Bring them on!"
We do.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: DougR
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:13 PM

Run for cover! It's falling again!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 02:26 PM

Ah. Good. DougR has learned a new mantra. There is hope. *G*

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 04:27 PM

The shit has hit the fan, eh, Doug? My recommendation is, simply inspire the young to resist the enemy occupation in the streets of Amerika. You are too old now to be engaging in firefights against the hated foreigners.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: dianavan
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 01:26 PM

If America was like Iraq there would be a water shortage and a shortage of electricity.

You would be grieving the loss of loved ones while trying to survive amidst the rubble.

There would be marshal law and you would trust no one.

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 01:29 PM

And there would be seriously ignorant young people from another country driving through your streets in big tanks and hummers and getting blown up now and then, and killing your friends and relatives in the crossfire while listening to godawful UGLY rap music on their noisy CD players.

Lovely...

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 06:07 PM

The sky has indeed fallen on thousands and thousands of people. Including nearly two thousamnd of your countrymen and women, Doug. It's not really such a joke...

Subject: RE: BS: What if America was like Iraq?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Aug 05 - 07:44 PM

America and Iraq are alike in one important respect.

Both have a number of religious fundamentalists with ambitions to rule, and the intention to impose their ideals on both their own countrymen, and the people of other countries. Neither is able to control these factions.

DT