Who was Bobby Sands?

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:22 AM

Doesn't crack me up particulary, Den. I do find it a little funny. Not as funny as someone who takes the moral high ground on making assumptions about a sense of humour and going on to assume that death would crack me up though...

I take it all back about your sense of humour. If you can make jokes as good as that you must have one.

:D

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Den
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:12 AM

Dave, yes I am Irish and no you do not know me. So therefore making assumptions about my sense of humour would seem to be a moot point. I can laugh at jokes with the best but jokes especially about the way someone dies I find distasteful. If that particular subject matter cracks you up then that is your business.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Den
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:06 AM

I'm sorry Skarpi, to address your question. There has been a lot of talk about Bobby Sands on this site. Much of it is misinformed. To get a better idea of who he was and what he did during his short life you could read, "10 Men Dead", by David Beresford, which in my view was a fairly objective account of the time. Or you could try the Cain site or this site Hope this helps.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 10:00 AM

Den, Tell you what Eric why don't you visit Twinbrook where Bobby Sands came from and tell your joke to the first guy you meet of your height and weight, see how funny he thinks it is.

I had the very good fortune to spend 2 weeks in Finugue, just outside Listowel, a few years ago. One real stroke of good luck was I was there at the same time as a festival celebrating the life of Sean McCarthy, who hailed from that very village. I attended concerts, poetry readings, school choir recitals and even met his widow! One thing I did find wonderful was the sense of humour which cropped up again and again at all things irreverent. One joke I remember was about the IRA man being chastised by the priest for killing a British soldier. "but he was only a Brit!" complained the IRA man. "It was three you missed I was complaining about!" replied the priest:-)

There are many such jokes and even songs about the sad deaths of people. So, Dan, if you are Irish, I think you may be one of the very few I have known without a sense of humour.

Out of complete disinterest to all concerned btw my 3rd child, Stewart, was born on the day Sands died. One out, one in eh?

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:44 AM

oh god here we go

it really does none of the dead or the living any good to be losing our tempers with what we consider ill considered remarks...

deep breaths everybody, the way to a better future.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Den
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:35 AM

Tell you what Eric why don't you visit Twinbrook where Bobby Sands came from and tell your joke to the first guy you meet of your height and weight, see how funny he thinks it is. Tam you call Bobby Sands a murderer. What evidence to you have that he murdered anyone? Bobby Sands was arrested with three other young men. A handgun was found in the car they were travelling in. He along with the others was sentenced to 14 years in prison for possession. He ended his life on hunger strike during that sentence. Would that same sentence have been given to anyone else anywhere else in Britain at that time. Some how I don't think so. Neither of you have any idea what it was like to live in that part of the world at that time as a nationalist person. The reading of facts can be an enlightening experience you should try it sometime.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:26 AM

Attrocities have been commited by both sides. Depends how far you wish to go back. But the British Government have seen sense now. Long may peace reign.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 09:10 AM

British troops also didn't have a policy of deliberately murdering children and babies like the fucking IRA did, the theory of terrorism is to spread terror, thats why the IRA did it.

No matter how bad the British Army was or was not, they didn't commit atrocities like the IRA, freedom fighters and patriots my arse.

Get real guest.

eric

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 08:11 AM

Maybe not Sauchiehall Street, Guest, but I think you will find plenty of instances of troops opening fire on civilians in Scotland. Ever heard of the 1820 rising? The Highland clearances? Jacobite Rebellion?

Just what was your comment getting at? That only Irish civilans ever get killed?

Hmmmm. New one on me...

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 07:17 AM

And the British troops never opened fire on innocent unarmed civilians on Sauciehall St.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Tam the Bam (Nutter)
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 07:10 AM

To some he was a hero and to others a murdering bastard, I just even think about him and what his so called cause was, I want freedom for Scotland but I don't go around killing people to do it.
I vote for freedom for Scotland and not kill for freedom for Scotland.
Mind you I Liked Eric's joke how true and yes I can sleep at night.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: GUEST,Phil
Date: 18 Oct 04 - 04:51 AM

you also have to remember that the hunger strike came after a long campaign for political status of prisoners; they refused to wear prison uniform and so were only wrapped in blankets. That escalated to the dirty campaign, refusing to slop out shit buckets. By the time they decided on the hunger strike strategy,there wasn't much else they could do to pursue the issue if they were not prepared to accept the prison regime

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 08:45 PM

To be honest I would be hesitant to draw even the tentative conclusions conclusions so far expressed. The actual state of negotiations between the IRA and the British government were so much a state secret that I really don't believe any of the accounts I have read thus far.

I suppose if we knew the truth of one situation, we might be able to draw parallels with another.

did anybody see the tv programme on Pearse recently? There was this comment on MacDonagh to the effect that he was obviously a power to be reckoned with within the movement, but the nature of his secret activities, even now made it difficult to divine exactly the scope of it.

What I mean is, if they're still arguing about who did what in 1916, what chance of gauging what happened as recently as 1981.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: GUEST,paddymac, cookieless again, dang it
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 08:27 PM

There's a song about that old code referred to by Vectis - "The Stone Outside [Somebody's] Door." The Hunger Stike at Long Kesh, in which Bobby Sands was the first of 10 men "on the blanket" to die, was about the status of nationalist prisoners. Thatcher's government had changed their status from "political" prisoners to "criminals." If you look at the event from the position of the dominant/domineering power, you very likely miss the immense impact it had on the nationalist. To give one's life in that way is a sad, but effective, demonstration of dedication to an idea. The tactic had been used before in the history of the struggle between the Irish and the British occupiers. There were five men died in Brixton Prison in 1920, including Terrence MacSwinney, Lord Mayor of Cork, although, technically, he did not starve. He was "murdered" when prison staff ruptured his esophagus while attempting to insert a forced feeding tube. Seems like there were other fatalities to the tactic, perhaps in the 1880s. I'm a bit fuzzy on that at the moment. There are obvious apparent similarities between the Irish struggle and contemporary events in the middle east. The key word there is "apparent." I'd be cautious about bold statements and comparisons because they're apt to be wrong and ill-informed. The most telling commonality is British and Anglo-American connivance reaching back at least as far as the collapse of the Ottoman Empire, and, of course, continuing today. My personal read on the situation in Iraq is that the irregular combatants are not so much fighting for "Iraq" as for their slice of the pie whenever the "infidels" leave.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: vectis
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 07:22 PM

Allegedly

In past times in Ireland if you had a dispute with someone and were being dealt with unjustly it was traditional (in extremis) to sit at his doorway and starve yourself until he capitulated and redressed the wrong he had done you. In those days the honour code would shame the wrongdoer into making up the quarrel before the other fellah starved himself to death.
The British, unfortunately, didn't have the same honour code and refused to deal with those THEY considered to be terrorists.
They should have applied the dictum
"jaw jaw not war war"
When they finally did realise that they could not win and started talking peace of a sort descended.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: GUEST, Mikefule
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 04:53 PM

Well, can I say, OT, what a pleasant surprise it was to read people who were prepared to acknolwedge that some terrorists are brave people with genuine convictions - be they ever so misguided, arrogant, selfish, murderous, and evil.

But it doesn't surprise me to find this in a folk forum, where people share an interest in the music and song of the oppressed, and perhaps have a clearer historical perspective than the average person.

I don't for one moment condone the actions of any terrorist. However, I do get annoyed by the automatic knee-jerk reaction of politicians who refer to all terrorist attacks as "cowardly". To do those things takes a certain type of courage. What a pity that courage couldn't be put to more constructive use.

For someone to go to all that trouble (whether it be the IRA, the PLO, the 9/11 bombers, or whoever) they must hate us a hell of a lot. And if we put half as much effort into trying to understand and deal with the causes of that hatred as we put into a military response, perhaps the world would be a better place. As someone said, firing million dollar missiles at 5 dollar tents will only make them hate us more.

We are all incredibly fortunate to live in a tiny window in history when we have freedom of speech (it probably won't last long) so people who express these controversial views in this forum shouldn't be subject to hostility. Arguments should win people,not the other way round.

Back to Bobby Sands and the Irish situation: the mess in Ireland has generated many wonderful songs over the decades. And in Glasgow (yes, I know that's Scotland!), a few years ago, a Celtic fan was killed by a Rangers fan for singing "Fields of Athenry" at him. (Could have been the other way round - I don't follow football.)

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: GUEST,T.Mooney
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 03:31 PM

Finding it tough to get to sleep again Eric, were you

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 05:26 AM

All Ireland slimming champion, 1981

eric

Subject: Lyr Add: THE PATRIOT GAME (Dominic Behan, Tom Cook
From: Blackcatter
Date: 17 Oct 04 - 01:45 AM

Speaking of the Patriot Game, here's how I updated the song to honor two victims of the current illegal war.


The Patriot Game
Dominic Behan (additional words by Tom Cook, all rights reserved)

Come all you young soldiers, and hear what I sing,
For the love of one's country is a terrible thing.
It banishes fear with the speed of a flame,
And it makes us all part of the patriot game.

My name is del Solar, and I'm from Mexico.
I joined the Marines and I'm 20 years old.
My fam-i-ly left home and to America came,
To play out my part in the patriot game.

This nation of ours has a mission to serve.
Exporting our ethics to those who deserve.
I knew that was just, so a Marine I became.
And now I'm a part of the patriot game.

I've been sent to Iraq now to aid in the fight.
Our doctrine is simple: That might begets right,
So I'm here in a war with insurgents to blame
For the danger I find in the patriot game.

And now as I lie here, my body all holes,
I think of those traitors who bargained in souls
I wish that my rifle had given the same
To those cowards who sold us the patriot game

-----------------------------

Lance Cpl. Jesus Suarez del Solar was born in Tiajuana, Mexico. His father, Fernando Suarez del Solar, brought his family from Tijuana, Mexico to fulfill Jesus' wish to become a Marine. Jesus enlisted in the Marine Corps in 2001. He was killed in combat March 29, 2004. He wrote several critical letters home.

His father was able to protest at the Republican Convention. He borrowed credentials from a friend to get on the floor during the speech of Laura Bush. While there he held up a sign that read "Bush lied, my son died." That wasn't his only action, but it was the most dramatic.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 11:12 PM

. . . and it makes us all part of the patriot game.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 07:50 PM

Its still a very contentious issue and there are many reasons why a person may not want to reveal their identity. Perhaps they are a musician getting gigs in staunchly republican Irish centres, perhaps they live in an area where they live in fear of punishment beatings, perhaps they would upset members of their own family or neighbours. Have a bit of sense about such things.

Whatever you thought of Bobby Sands - 28,000 people voted for him. And this was a wake up call for us English. We had been informed by our media and many of us (myself included)believed that the IRA were an embattled minority - rather than enjoying such popular support. Certainly Sinn Fein have never looked back electorally.

Mrs Thatcher was, who knows ... she was an intelligent woman. The rhetoric of not dealing with terrorists was just for public consumption it turns out - all the time the were dealings going on. God knows what the truth of the matter is. I don't think we will know in our life time.

The idea of the hunger strikes was apparently to have a set piece defeat like 1916 that would ensure ultimate victory. Its hard to imagine the unionists ever wanting to be in a United Ireland that is so tied up with the Catholic church. So how ever clever the strategy - it is hard to see Bobby Sands as anything other than deluded when it comes to thinking that it would be a way past the impasse.

Would his songs be regarded as good songs, if he wasn't who he was . I think yes, but not great songs - not in the same class as the great Republican rebel songs....I don't think theres a Foggy Dew in there.

ChristY moore sings this song that says
Only the very safe can talk about wrong and right

and lets be honest, who knows what it took to make a guy so pissed off that he would do that with his life.

My Mum was dying with cancer when the hunger strike were going on, and I remember the nurse saying to me...theres your Mum hanging on to the slightest thread of life, and those people are throwing their lives away for god knows what.

Either way don't let's get agry with each other over this stuff. If history teahes us anything - it is that the answers when they come are unlikely to be simple.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 04:30 PM

If I were to state my view I would sign my name. Rhetoric is rhetoric.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 04:18 PM

Ah - another 'Guest' who doesn't like to be identified with his/her views! Any chance you could do an automatic delete on these postings, Joe?

Thanks for identifying yourself, Blackcatter.

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 04:15 PM

Or they all acted out of desperation brought on by their countries being invaded/threatened/occupied by another more powerful country?

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Raedwulf
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 04:10 PM

Tim, my perspective is that they were all misguided bloody idiots who have subtracted from the sum of humanity. Murderous bigotry never adds, & blood only ever breeds more blood...

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Blackcatter
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 04:05 PM

I'll put my name to it:

"Bobby Sands was a brave man who died for his convictions."

Just like the 9/11 bombers!

I disagree with both their opinions and their methods but all were brave in their own way. Certainly the men in power in this coutry (U.S.) aren't.

By the way - Bobby Sands was a passable poet as well. Within the warrior/terrorist beat the heart of a poet.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 03:30 PM

Or parts of all 3 Big Tim?

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Big Tim
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 03:24 PM

Depends on your perspective.                                       

1. He was an heroic Irish patriot who died for his country.

2. He was a murderous bomber.

3. He was a working class boy from Belfast who got caught up in a lot of stuff that he didn't understand and then couldn't back down.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Raedwulf
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 12:52 PM

Yes, cowardly Guest, he was, & so were they. IMHO, they were all also misguided bloody idiots who have subtracted from the sum of humanity (by which I opine that the world would be a better place if they had never been born).

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Zany Mouse
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 12:47 PM

Whilst I understand and agree with your comment, Guest, YOU should be brave and put your name to your posting!

Rhiannon

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 12:32 PM

"Bobby Sands was a brave man who died for his convictions."

Just like the 9/11 bombers!

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Folk Form # 1
Date: 16 Oct 04 - 11:14 AM

Bobby Sands was a brave man who died for his convictions. However, his hunger strike was an attempt to blackmail the British government and Mrs Thatcher stood her ground and refused to yield an inch. I admire that as well and I believe she was right todo so.

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Peace
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 07:31 PM

irelandsown.net/bobby.html

This will explain, Skarpi.

or google

Ireland's OWN: History

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 07:28 PM

Thread 16543: Bobby Sands

Subject: RE: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: Abby Sale
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 07:19 PM

The "happy?" file gives:

Ulster: After 65-days (from 3/1) of the Hunger Strike in Long Kesh prison, IRA leader Bobby Sands died 5/5/1981.

        Twenty years have gone by and I've ended me bond
        And comrades' ghosts are behind me.
        A rebel I came and I'II die the same.
        On the cold winds of night you will find me.

                From "Back Home in Derry" DigTrad filename[ BCKDERRY

While in prison, Sands wrote this song for his comrades in H-block singing it out through a keyhole in his cell-door. Same tune as "Wreck Of The Edmond Fitz."

Subject: Who was Bobby Sands.......
From: skarpi
Date: 15 Oct 04 - 07:12 PM

Halló all, I was wandering has there been a thread about this man?
I saw a picture " Some Mothers Sons " I think it was called
and it was about the hunger strike in Long kesh prison among other
things but there was something about this man or this person .
I think " Back home In Derry " Is or has something to do
with this matter .
So Is there anyone who are willing to share with me and others
some knoledge about this?.

All the best Skarpi Iceland.