BS: Voting problems arising

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:17 PM

PA by county DEMS win, of course...

MD by county.... DEMs win, of course...

NY state by county... DEMs win. of course...

Michigan by county... DEMs win, of course...


It seems to me that if there is an indication of fraud, a good case could be made that the Democrats really lost by a much larger margin. Or do you really think that the Dems would not stoop to such tactics?

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 05:04 PM

CarolC,

I agree with you on this topic, entirely.

I just want to let people know that it is the system, and NOT just one party, that does this. To blame the Republicans, and let the Democrats get away with the same thing is ridiculous, but unfortunately what I see here all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:55 PM

So I'm sure you would like to make sure that all votes are verifiable yourself, beardedbruce. I'm not a Democrat, and I have no stake in making sure that either party can prevail. I just want to live in a democracy that has a government by the people, for the people, and of the people, and in which every voter has an equal number of votes. I want honest elections. I'm sure you feel the same way.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:54 PM

The black boxes under Diebold stole this election. It has undermined our democracy. Kerry betrayed his followers by not having the votes counted before he conceded.

In a way, I can kind of understand it though. Who needed to be a president that would be a Republican football?

Now we have another Bush four years to dishonor the office.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:43 PM

CarolC

In Maryland, a solid Dem. state, we were forced to use electronic machines, with no paper trail. Makes you wonder.... ANd of course, the state went for Kerry.... In four counties. I find it interesting to look at the county-by-county maps of EACH state- Like PA. Note that usually some small number of the counties went blue, but with enough votes to carry the entire state. Seems to me that it looks as if the Dems were making sure they held "their" states, regardless of the votes cast.

Just my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:36 PM

Good point Genie.

Kim C, if a pattern can be shown in which the districts that used voting machines had a higher discrepancy with the exit polls than districts that used verifiable voting methods, that would be enough to suggest that the non-verifiable voting machines are highly suspect, and very probably rigged.

If people don't have anything to hide, they won't object to making sure that it's possible to verify all votes. As things stand right now, a significant percentage of votes cast in this election cannot be verified because the machines on which they were cast leave no paper trail.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Nerd
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:36 PM

Interesting, Genie. I was going by what CNN said the afternoon Kerry conceded. They said that vote counting in Ohio would stop. I'm glad to hear they were wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:03 PM

There's a new report about Ohio today. Apparently there's a precinct where 600+ voters cast ballots and the machine reported about 600 for Kerry and almost 4,000 for Bush!

Nerd - "I completely agree with you, Genie. All those votes SHOULD be counted. But they're not. Once Kerry conceded, Ohio said outright that it would not count any more ballots."

Ken Blackwell, Ohio Secretary Of State, has vowed that he WILL count all the provisional ballots. I DK if he's promised to count all the absentee ballots though.

"I think Kerry should have stuck it out just to force all the votes to be counted everywhere, but we have this obsession with finding out quickly. Giuliani was on TV within minutes, saying "Kerry should concede NOW," as though everyone's future depended more on a quick concession than on an accurate count."

Personally, I'd like to see legislation to require that a state must count ALL votes before certifying the vote count. That, and an agreement that the state would not announce its totals till the votes were certified.
That would not prevent exit polls and "leaks," but it would keep the election results in the realm of speculation till the votes were counted. (Absentee ballots could be required to be RECEIVED by Nov. 2. Oregon votes entirely by mail and Nov. 2 is the deadline for receiving all ballots.) Any "concessions" before that could be considered as non-binding.

(I don't know if the election "result" can be overturned if it's found that the actual results are different from the election night projections.   They probably can if it's discovered before the Electoral College casts votes. But though Nixon was officially re-elected in 1972, the misdeeds of his organization were brought to light during his administration and he was driven out of office.)



Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Nerd - PM
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:46 PM

I completely agree with you, Genie. All those votes SHOULD be counted. But they're not. Once Kerry conceded, Ohio said outright that it would not count any more ballots. I think Kerry should have stuck it out just to force all the votes to be counted everywhere, but we have this obsession with finding out quickly. Giuliani was on TV within minutes, saying "Kerry should concede NOW," as though everyone's future depended more on a quick concession than on an accurate count.

CarolC
"They're afraid. They know they can't win without cheating."

Well, they didn't even trust their own campaign to win without blatant LYING about Kerry.   And in 2000 they didn't trust that they could win if all the votes in Florida were counted. Why should their cheating stop now?

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 04:01 PM

or how about this..

oops voting machine in ohio gives bush extra 4000 votes

you only need a few of those..

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Kim C
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 03:45 PM

I'm sorry; I must have missed something. Did someone cheat?

Kerry and Edwards made it very clear they would hang on until every last vote was counted. They didn't. If you all think Kerry could have won if he had held out, then blame him for conceding. Although I imagine someone would have a conspiracy theory for that, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: GUEST,Jubilation T Cornpone
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:51 PM

The South shall rise again!

JTC

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:50 PM

They're afraid. They know they can't win without cheating.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Nerd
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 01:46 PM

I completely agree with you, Genie. All those votes SHOULD be counted. But they're not. Once Kerry conceded, Ohio said outright that it would not count any more ballots. I think Kerry should have stuck it out just to force all the votes to be counted everywhere, but we have this obsession with finding out quickly. Giuliani was on TV within minutes, saying "Kerry should concede NOW," as though everyone's future depended more on a quick concession than on an accurate count.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 09:38 PM

Makes ya kinda wonder how the voting will go in Iraq.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 05:26 PM

NH Dave - "One of the problems with exit polling is that no one polls, or even can poll, the people who vote by absentee ballot, or who vote early, as is allowed in many areas, now. With these voters unreachable, any validity of exit polling goes right out the window. "

Early voters can be polled, and their responses should be included. Absentee voters are not polled, and their numbers can be great.

Nerd, you're right that absentee votes are seldom counted, unless the election is "close." But this year in Florida I understand that about 37% of the state voted absentee, largely because people didn't trust the paperless machines. Since the electronic machines tended to be used in heavily Democratic counties, there's a good chance the absentee votes might be as much as 2:1 in favor of Kerry & the Democrats.

Especially when much political hay is being made over the POPULAR VOTE, it's important that ALL VOTES be counted -- even if we think the voters have decided on all issues and candidates.   The SPREAD is important, too, when interepreting "the will of the people."

It's outrageous for FLORIDA to have been called for Bush when the absentee ballots have not been counted.



Kim C - "If Kerry had won, would we be having this conversation?"

Not only WOULD we, Kim, but people like Bev Harris and Greg Palast and many, many others HAVE BEEN having this conversation for YEARS. The mainstream media have given it little attention, but lots of us have been talking about voter problems and demanding that they be fixed ever since the fall of 2000.

And the issue is NOT who WINS. The issue is that EVERYONE ELIGIBLE to vote should be ALLOWED to vote -- without being harrassed or threatened or having to stand on line for hours -- and even ENCOURAGED to vote. Then EVERY VOTE SHOULD BE COUNTED.

Them's s'posed to be the RULES in our "democracy." We need to keep having "this conversation" till those in power GET it.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Nerd
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM

One of the problems with exit polling is that no one polls, or even can poll, the people who vote by absentee ballot, or who vote early, as is allowed in many areas, now. With these voters unreachable, any validity of exit polling goes right out the window.


Not true Dave. One CAN poll people who vote early, just by sending the pollsters out there early too. No great difficulty there. As to Absentee ballots and provisional ballots, these tend to make so little difference they are almost never counted in US elections--the election officers just wait until the machine votes and real-time votes are counted, then count the absentee ballots only if they will make a difference. Usually they won't. Since the reported vote count ignores absentee ballots, the exit poll will more accurately reflect the reported vote count by ignoring the absentee ballots too. Sad but true, absentee voters.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 03:46 PM

I would, Kim C. I want our elections to be honest and above any hanky panky whatever. Regardless of who wins. I want to live in a Democracy. If the candidate of my choice wins by less than honest means, I might feel that it benefits me, but only in the short run. In the long run, dishonest elections hurt everyone.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Dani
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 02:33 PM

No, but someone would be...

Dani

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Kim C
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:55 PM

If Kerry had won, would we be having this conversation?

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: NH Dave
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 02:44 AM

One of the problems with exit polling is that no one polls, or even can poll, the people who vote by absentee ballot, or who vote early, as is allowed in many areas, now. With these voters unreachable, any validity of exit polling goes right out the window.

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 01:49 AM

I agree with you Genie. Thoughtful and informative posts...thank you.


..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 01:43 AM

As long as there's no paper trail, no way for anyone to check the accuracy of the tallies spewed out by electronic voting machines, how can anyone have faith in the electoral process??

Even if the exit polls matched up perfectly with the "black boxes'" results, it's still insanity to conduct an election where a recount isn't possible. (In fact, in some states, e.g., FLORIDA, it's ILLEGAL to do that.)

But in this election, both the pre-election polls and the exit polls were pretty widely discrepant from the "official" results (without all the absentee and provisional ballots counted). These election results are highly suspect IMO.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 01:23 AM

Today's analysts are bemoaning the fact that the exit polls didn't match the voting. Well, think about it. There are a couple of possibilities. The voters questioned were voting for Kerry, but pollsters didn't ask all voters, so they may have been light and not really balanced on the polling. OR Bobert got it right, and Diebold did deliver. There weren't paper receipts for most of those machines. How is anyone going to know their vote was lost or not counted with no way of tracking, except annecdotal evidence that it seemed like more democrats voted than the count reveals. Duh.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:26 AM

I don't see why they would be difficult for the precincts to just take care of themselves. I live in an area that probably doesn't have much money for voting equipment, but it seems to be able to manage paper ballot voting. Why can't all precincts just use paper ballots? At least with the paper ballots, even if the scanning machines don't count the votes accurately, at least there is a paper trail for conducting a recount if needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Genie
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:13 AM

Then there was the voting machine in Ohio that yielded a result at one point of MINUS 25,000,000 votes!

Completely aside from the fact that lots of voters were effectively prevented from voting by lines so long you had to wait -- in rain or burning sun -- 2 to 6 hours to vote! -- aside from those problems (mostly in heavily Democratic areas) there were about 30% of the votes cast on electronic machines with NO PAPER TRAIL and with "proprietary software" such that not even the county or state election officials are legally allowed to view their source codes!

To quote Greg Palast    GregPalast.com "Are [we] INSANE??!!"

BlackBoxVoting.com

Not only HAVE their been quite a few reported cases of ACTUAL malfunctions -- e.g., you touch the screen for X and Y's name lights up, or the machine breaks down and loses 2 hours worth of votes -- but even if there were no KNOWN problems, how the heck can anyone have faith that the machine count is free from both unplanned malfunctions and deliberate tampering? Especially when the manufacturers -- the only ones allowed to program them and view the code -- are loyal to one party? (The head of Diebold is a major contributor to and operative for the Republican Party and even openly stated that he pledged to do whatever he could to deliver Ohio for The President.)

Say what you will about pollsters, but exit polls conducted by reputable and respected polling firms have an excellent track record in predicting Presidential races. At least they did till Florida in 2000 -- especially West Palm Beach Co., home of the "butterfly ballot." And till this year, when we are all at the mercy of the unverifiable paperless machines to know what the vote count IS in many counties!

When there's no other way of checking the accuracy of the machines, comparing the official count with the exit poll figures is the next best thing, and doing that this year casts suspicion on the accuracy of the official results.

There have some analyses of election results that show that Bush averaged 5% more votes in counties where the infamous electronic machines were used than in places with a paper trail. If this is true, it's all the more remarkable because, at least in some states, like Florida, the electronic machines tended to be used in counties that usually vote heavily Democratic.


One more "voting problem" that's being overlooked by the media because "the margin in the election is too big for it to matter":
There are hundreds of thousands of votes -- maybe millions -- that have not been counted and may never be. E.g., over 37% of Floridians voted by absentee ballot -- many of them Democrats who did not trust the paperless machines. They have not been counted and, since Kerry's already conceded, Florida does not plan to count them. Many states don't bother counting absentee ballots, provisional ballots, or ballots that require hand counting (ballots spit out by a machine, ballots with write-in candidates, etc.) once they've determined who gets their electoral votes.

But this is a sort of catch-22, innit?

You don't bother making sure all the ballots in a state are counted, even if the election is close, if a candidate has a wide enough margin in the popular vote.   And you base that popular-vote margin on INCOMPLETE state counts, incomplete because you've decided the national margin is wide! Etc. Etc.


We are SERIOUSLY in need of ELECTION REFORM!

It was supposed to happen after the 2000 fiasco, but the Dubya admin. had better things to do with the money (like give it to Halliburton and the like), so the states never got the funding they needed to implement the reforms. Now the news media are saying these reforms should be in place within 4 years.
FOUR YEARS?!
Why the heck should we expect things to be better 4 years from now when in many ways they're WORSE now than they were 4 years ago -- partly because the media don't bring the problems to the public's attention till a couple weeks before a friggin election?!

Do I think the results of this election were clear, accurate and fair? Not on your life!

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Nov 04 - 12:11 AM

Ah well...

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 09:05 AM

almost 55 million of us tried....I can't explain why it didn't 'quite' work...

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:41 AM

Excellent website from BBC


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/americas/04/vote_usa/map/html/default.stm


..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:29 AM

Why don't we just line the candidates up and do 'ip dip bird shit' (or Eeny meeny miny mo, if you prefer....), it would be just as "democratic" as the US voting system seems to be.....

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 03:27 AM

Latest news from Ohio

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/041103/325/f5uz4.html

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Deckman
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:59 AM

You know ... there is an "up" side to all this confusion. It gives our "Supreme" Court something to do. And of course we all know just how well they did the last time they had to decide a national election! CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:53 AM

They need to count the votes all of them. If someone filled out a provisional ballot it MUST be counted!!

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:34 AM

John Edwards just speaking now

"We have waited four years...we can wait another night"

"In this election, every vote would count, and every vote will be counted...you deserve no less"



..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:11 AM

Like I said elsewhere, it ain't over yet...

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 02:10 AM

The Bush people are clammering for Kerry to concede Ohio. But the provisional ballots have not been counted there yet, and there appear to be at least 200,000 provisional ballots in Ohio. The provisional ballots were used precisely to prevent the kind of disenfranchisement we saw in Florida last time around. So to concede before the provisional ballots are counted would be Florida 2000 all over again.

I think the Bush people are desperate for Kerry to concede before the provisional ballots are counted because they know those votes are going to go to Kerry.

Stay the course, Kerry!

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:50 AM

George W Bush didn't need chicanery, cheating, voter problems, electronic voting machine problems, or thugs. All he needed was what he had: a completely dumbed down America.

Bye-bye, USA. You were great for a while.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:36 AM

It looks like Georgie might have the last laugh... I just can't believe 169 people voted for him! There's only one word that comes to mind at this moment, repeated over and over again it goes : "baaa... baaa... baaa..." thanks to the wooly republicans.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Peace
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:05 AM

I was ashamed that I didn't vote today. Then I remembered I'm Canadian.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:03 AM

That sounds like the republican mentality for ya...

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: GUEST,Taibnor
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 01:01 AM

I had no trouble voting. I saw no problems or disruptions. I met old friends there and had a good time.

T

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Nerd
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:55 AM

I was a non-partisan poll monitor for Election Protection in Philadelphia, and I didn't see anything too bad. A few people were turned away over obvious clerical errors (the person who recorded their registration changed a w. to an e. in an address, as in e. Osborne st instead of w. Osborne st., moving the person to an entirely different district).

One Republican precinct captain went ballistic and threatened Democratic poll watchers, saying "I'll kick your ass, and then my biker friends will come and finish the job!" The Dems called the cops. Weirdly, this same GOP precinct captain had a beef against Arlen Specter (his own party's candidate for Senator) and ripped all the Specter signs to little shreds.

If you discount this one crazy guy, who did as much damage to his own party as to the other party, there were no shenanigans in my little corner of Philly!

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: beardedbruce
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:28 AM

In Colorado, Republican Party officials said a lawyer for the Democrats showed up at an Eagle County precinct with a list of registered GOP voters, planning to challenge them all. Democrats admitted it was true.


In other closely contested states — including Iowa and Michigan — the liberal group MoveOn.org was accused of disrupting local precincts.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: GUEST,Taibnor
Date: 03 Nov 04 - 12:11 AM

Sorry to piss on your candles but the voting problems are few and far between.

Old Memogate himself, Dan Rather has called it for Bush.

T

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 08:38 PM

I know that a lot of Pennsylvanians are strickly for Kerry. Hoping that'll give him an edge...

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Burke
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 08:28 PM

Liz, Problems have been predicted for Florida & Ohio especially for weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 08:23 PM

You mean, after 4 years, they still haven't learned?

Or else they're trying that trick again.... how else is he going to get back in - Bush MUST serve another term, he hasn't finished colouring in that book yet.

LTS

Subject: BS: Voting problems arising
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 12:59 PM

Might as well start with this thread now...just put online 20 minutes ago...


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=3&u=/ap/20041102/ap_on_el_pr/eln_voting_problems

Please add on website article as you find them...this could become quite a long thread, I fear.

..xx..e