BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 12:56 PM

Herby, we want honest and verifiable voting practices. And yes, I would be promoting this even if Kerry won. I'm not a partisan voter and I would like to live in a democracy. We don't want paperless voting systems. We want voting systems that leave a paper trail and that can be verified. Punch card ballots are stupid and in some states illegal. But paper ballots that use a pen to mark the vote are an excellent system, as long as members of both parties are involved in the counting process every step of the way, as long as voters can use provisional ballots when necessary, and as long as all votes are counted.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Herby
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 12:46 PM

Didn't see any answers.
What do we need paperless systems for?

H

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Nerd
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 12:41 PM

beardedbruce doesn't know what he is talking about. "Just a few districts?" In PA, MD, etc, roughly the same number of districts went for Kerry as for Bush. The Kerry districts happen to be closer together (in Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, for example). But a district serves a given number of voters, at least in PA. So you would have to jimmy an awful lot of districts to get the results bb is suggesting--the same number that Bush would have to jimmy, in fact.

BB is acting as though Philadelphia used one voting machine or counted as one district or something. Preposterous! And he's spouting this nonsense on several different threads, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 11:10 AM

Dishonest elections are bad for this country no matter who wins. So I'm sure Ragnar and Herby the love bug will agree with me when I say we need to audit all of the paperless voting systems, and make sure that all voting precincts have verifiable voting systems in place for the next election.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Ragnar
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 10:49 AM

Is anybody scrutinizing the Evil Black Box voting machines in the blue states?

Could it be that just as many machine votes went to Kerry?

RAG

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Herby
Date: 07 Nov 04 - 10:04 AM

What was wrong with the old system?

It was not managed correctly. The management should have been fixed instead of replacing it with a supposedly "foolproof" system. Get rid of the fools not the system.

Who wanted the old sytem replaced anyway? The losers of the 2000 election?

Now, when they lost the 2004 election, they bitch about the new system. Would they be bitching if they had won?

Herby the love bug

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:15 PM

I think there needs to be AT LEAST two, INDEPENDENT means to verify the count. I did not like the present electronic machines, I do not like the idea of voting by email, and I do not think that there will be any way to stop it- the LOCAL incumbents get too much of a benifit to stop them.

And in my state, that means the Democratic Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:49 PM

bb, what is your opinion on the use of electronic voting machines without having the possibility of a paper trail? By anybody, in any 'free' country. (That word is asterisked because dictatorships have often gone through the motions of election.)

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:25 PM

BB: Hubba Hubba. You got it right. They could have been blue boxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:13 PM

And, btw, it is usually the LOCAL jurisdiction that decides what machines to use. ( at least in MD, and the other places I have knowledge of.) Prince Georges County, Montgomery County, and Baltimore City are all SOLID Democratic areas- If there is any fixing of the machines, it HAS to be by the Democrats- no-one else has the access or control.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: beardedbruce
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 08:52 PM

DMcG

If I were trying to rig the vote by doctoring the machines, I would select the larger population districts that I expected to WIN, and just add enough votes in addition to take the entire state. THAT is what I see in MD, PA, and other places. No one will question that Kerry won there- but by how many votes? If it is enough, it gives the entire state to him. Just a few districts in each state, and little chance that anyone can show that there were more votes cast than people voting...

But of course, no one would consider that anyone other than Bush might be playing with the numbers...

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 08:44 PM

Well, Bat Goddess, do the machines in NH tally with the paper audit trail, or not?

And what is the third type - you say three types and then cite two machines that do have paper trails?

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 01:11 PM

"the machine did it. " To paraphrase the NRA, "machines don't defraud voters,
people do". Jeb Bush, W Odell (chairman of Diebold) and Ken Blackwell take a bow!

Anybody want to guess how smooth the elections will go in Iraq (if we can't get it right in our own country)?

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 12:33 PM

Genie --

On what do you base your accusation of election fraud or miscounting in New Hampshire?

There are 3 types of ballots in NH -- the two machines, Accuvote with ovals to be filled in, and Optech which requires filling in the center part of an arrow. Coding around the edges of the ballot and in the positioning of the ovals or arrows is what enables them to be tabulated by machine. The physical paper ballot with the filled in oval or arrow is archived in case of a recount.

I've worked for the company that prints the ballots and I know the precision of printing and trimming, proofreading, closeness of working with the Secretary of State's office, and testing of the ballots in the machines prior to election day. I also know the Secretary of State and Assistant Secretary of State's dedication to fair elections and of the continuing to use ballots that provide a paper trail.

A substantial amount of towns in New Hampshire, including Nottingham where I vote, use a paper ballot where the voter manually makes an X in a square. These ballots are hand counted.

The ballots in New Hampshire are straight forward and easy for the voter to understand.

Where's the problem? There are most likely problems and unfair practices in other states -- especially Ohio and Florida, but I don't see it in NH.

Linn

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 11:06 AM

Oh, go slug back another Coors, guys.

Okay, Ebbie, here's what I think you (Americans, I mean) should do. Gather as much evidence as possible on the exit polls as compared to the final vote tally...and then compare the discrepancies between ridings where there were voting machines and riding where there were paper ballots. Have a look at what I mean here:

paper ballots versus machines - big difference!

The results speak for themselves. It's ground for a much bigger problem than Watergate.

What you should do is dig up all the evidence possible comparing exit polls to final voting tallies, and pointing up the gross differences in final results in the computerized voting districts as opposed to the others. Publicize it. And start indicting people for it. Contact your congressmen to do this.

Given that you have a corporate-controlled media that has apparently been instructed to soft-pedal or ignore this subject, it won't be easy, but surely Ralph Nader and the Democrats between them have enough guts and clout to do something about it? After all, they've been robbed blind, so why wouldn't they do something about it?

I wondered about those voting tallies on election night, because they were not in line with pre-election polling, and because there is hardly any population in the World today that would freely elect George Bush after what his administration has done in the past 4 years. It's utterly extraordinary that he could get re-elected, given his record. Well, the fact is, he didn't...in truth. He didn't the first time, and he didn't this time either.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Gitmo
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:59 AM

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Maybe we should ask Haliburton.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:57 AM

Genie, I don't have access to a fax machine right now. Do you know if there is any other way I can give my support to Nader's efforts?

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Rangell
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:46 AM

I insist they call them Afro boxes.

Chuck R

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Jessy
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:41 AM

Dammit! Why do folks call anything that is evil black?

That is social injustice! Those evil boxes that stole the election form Kerry should be called white boxes.

The Rev

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,Rasmus
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 10:29 AM

Gee. The electronic machine I used was not black.
How many of them are black?
Why are people calling them black?

Sounds like a racist plot to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:31 AM

I suppose I'd better point out that the hypothesis being tested is that the SAME proportion was being transferred in each case. Since it wouldn't be very difficult to transfer a different proportion for each machine, a negative result does not show there is a problem, merely that the specific hypothesis is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: DMcG
Date: 06 Nov 04 - 04:10 AM

I've been thinking about how I would rig the machines IF I had the ability. I wouldn't add a fixed number of votes onto a candidate because, at the lowest level, its too easy for the votes to outnumber the electors, as mentioned for "one Ohio precinct" above.
My first inclination would be either to count every vote for the person I didn't want to win at, say, 0.95 of a vote and the desired winner at 1 for each vote, but any audit investigating the software (should it come to it) would immediately declare using non-integer counts of the number of votes suspect. More subtle would be to count each nondesired vote as 95 and each desired vote at 100 and divide by 100 somewhere. However, as the machines use a mechanical tachometer, I understand, this would also be difficult.

No, the easiest and safest way is to either omit a proportion of the nondesired vote or, better, transfer it to the desired vote (this is better because it would mean the total number of votes cast equals the number of voters, allowing another audit test to be passed.)

All this is, I suppose, fairly obvious. But what you could then do is ask what proportion would have to be transferred to make one state (shall we say Florida?) give the same result for the reported vote as the exit poll. You could then try exactly that same proportion of transfer in all the other states and see how well they then match the exit poll. If they were much closer than the 'real' results, the evidence of something going on would be extremely strong.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:48 PM

Well, I've been sayin' it for months. Dielbold, E.S.S. (or what evr Diebold's Cwo's bother's company is...) are having their way with democracy...

Throw in a few pollsters to say that "morals" was on the top of voters concernes and you havea somewaht believable story... Operative word here is "story"...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 11:18 PM

You are one "twisted little sister!"

PLEASE!!! read over your thread postings.....before you post again.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:51 PM

You're right, LH, and Ebbie's right that lots of people HAVE been talking -- SCREAMING -- about it ever since 2001.

One Congressman -- Ken Holt, I think -- even introduced a bill a year or two ago to REQUIRE a recountable paper trail for all electronic voting machines. The bill had the support of over half the House Of Representatives, including both parties, but the Republicans who controlled the relevant committee refused to allow it to come up for vote!   That's the kind of concern TPTB in the Republican Party of today have for democracy and the will of the people!

Dianavan, the biggest roadblock to getting anything done about this has been the corporat-owned media. They've been informed of the situation all along and begged to give it the air time and emphasis it deserves, but they've pretty much kept saying "We';; get to it later." Then when they do give it any air time, they treat it like it's about as important as the coverage they give to Kerry's windsurfing or Bush's golf game. The reports I saw about the issue on TV took the attitude that as long as no problems were KNOWN, we should assume everything would be okey-dokey.

BTW, Dianavan, Diebold is not the only culprit. The machine in Ohio that was just found to yield a ridiculous result was not a Diebold machine.

Dianavan -- "Everyone (at least outside of the U.S.) knew this was going to happen and yet everyone inside, kept debating about who was the 'better' candidate. Fat lot of difference it makes. "

Exactly! That's why I'm abandoning all talk of what the voters' issues were and why "the Democrats lost." WE DON'T FRIGGIN' KNOW THAT THEY DID!   Unless and until we get a full, accurate vote count, doing post-mortems on what the results mean is WORSE than FUTILE.

There's mounting evidence that Kerry WON, as probably did some Democrat Senate and House candidates -- maybe even governors, etc. IF that's the case, for the Dems to try to heed the "Republican base's message" would be counterproductive!



BTW, that computer "patch" that was discovered in the black box machine in Georgia that robbed Max Cleland of his Senate seat --
its name (on the cyber folder) was "Rob Georgia!"

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:50 PM

Little Hawk, we know that. We've been talking about it. We've been writing letters to the editors. Several states and communities within states have, in the last year, literally forbidden touch-screen voting until the system can be modified to accept a paper trail. We are very aware of the pitfalls. You may remember that it has been said here on the Cat that if Bush 'wins', we will have no way of knowing whether it was an honest election. And now it seems that we are face to face with the worst case scenario.

So what would YOU do or have done? And what do we do next?
Beating this dead horse won't make it rise again.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 10:17 PM

Uh-huh. "Take the word of the corporations." With no paper trail. Rightttt! Big business will always cheat if there's a big payoff to be made and no way to prove that they cheated. Always. It's their way of life. Only the end result counts, and it's only "wrong" if you get caught.

You've been robbed, America. Votes without a paper trail is sheer madness if you want fair elections.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:47 PM

Zip it, dianavan. LOTS of us in the US have been talking about it.


More Thougts on the Vote Discrepancy


I remember reading already at the time of the 2002 election that if electronic voting machines were used to defraud an election, the way you would be able to tell is that there would be a mismatch between the exit polls and the reported vote.

"Two states are critical now: Florida and Ohio. Both states make significant use of electronic voting machines. Both states have Bush ahead, even though exit polls indicated a definite Kerry victory.
Because electronic voting machines do not leave a paper trail, we simply have to take the word of the people and corporations that program the machines that they accurately register votes. But why should we take their word for it? Elections are based on transparency, and there is nothing less transparent than a computer running proprietary software. "

He goes on to say that the one thing Kerry must not do, and that is concede before this has been investigated.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:28 PM

What I don't understand is that all this known KNOWN before the election. Why didn't anyone do anything to prevent it from happening? You would have thought the democrats would have insisted on machines other than Diebold. Everyone (at least outside of the U.S.) knew this was going to happen and yet everyone inside, kept debating about who was the 'better' candidate. Fat lot of difference it makes.

Its time to wake up, America.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:24 PM

More spin from the corporate media:
ABC news just commented on the disparity between the exit polls and the overall outcome of the election. They're saying there were problems with the polls, that they oversampled women, oversampled early voters, etc., and that Democrats are usually more willing to be interviewed.

This is IMO a feeble attempt at a whitewash.
First, exit polls have a long history of being extremely accurate in predicting election results, and the poll results cited at Randi Rhodes's site were not just the early poll results.
(The TV news has been dangling poll results in front of the viewers for MONTHS and analyzing them as though they are assumed to be done properly. NOW, when they don't like what seems to be their meaning, they're all of a sudden suspicious of their validity! Exit polls are MORE useful than pre-election polls, because everyone polled already HAS VOTED.)

More importantly, -- HELLO! -- it's not a question of how accurate the polls are. The question is
Why were the polls more accurate when paper ballots were used than when people voted via electronic machines that had no paper trail or other means of doing a recount?

Geez, Jennings!

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 09:06 PM

The spin by the lapdog TV media is really inane! When confronted with an Ohio machine that gave about 4,000 extra votes to Bush (only 600+ voters used that machine), their comments were along the lines of, "But that's the only problem that's been discovered with Ohio's electronic machines."

As though that's supposed to mean there weren't any errors and there wasn't any fraud!

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Ebbie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:54 PM

Gads, I hate this kind of thing. Part of me says, Let the bush clean up his own mess! The more sensible part of me realizes that it's not just George who would suffer- it's the USA - it's US!- and the rest of the world.

In the graphs, notice the coherence of the exit polls and vote tally in each of the states that did NOT use electronic voting. There is a definite validity to exit polling. Very little difference it and the actual tally. If these graphs are correct. the differences are damning.

I keep remembering on Election Night how flabbergasted the networks were at the difference.

Here are the figures from the Electoral College on the pertinent states, states that show a major discrepancy:

Distribution of Electoral Votes
Total Electoral Vote: 538

      
Florida 27
New Mexico 5
North Carolina 15
Ohio 20

A total of 67 votes.

Dubya ostensibly won by 34 votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:11 PM

Right now, the best hope of spearheading this effort for an audit of the election results in states with questionable voting practices is to join the effort to demand an audit of New Hampshire.

Note that NH officially went for Kerry, so the issue there isn't the electoral college results. It's about EXPOSING the FRAUDS.

RALPH NADER is the main one challenging the corporate-controlled ballot box!

You can help by FAXING him, as follows:

Send a Fax Now to:
202-265-0092 
 
Text should Read:
 
RALPH --
     
Challenge the election results in New Hampshire, Now.
 
Your Name,
Black Box Voting Activist 

Now's the time to forgive Ralph and help him get back to the kind of consumer advocacy he's long been so good at!

Genie

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:10 PM

yes, as long as so many voting machines cannot be audited or monitored by some independant group, rigging the vote can become MUCH easier than stuffing ballot boxes used to be...and much cheaper than buying votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Cluin
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:08 PM

Like Jon Stewart and the Daily Show titled their election coverage show on Tuesday Night:
Election Night 2004 -- Prelude to a Recount.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 08:02 PM

Bill D, yes, we do need to sort the "wheat" from the "chaff," but what we are asking is a THOROUGH INVESTIGATION and ASAP.
First, the longer we wait, the more the media and public will say, "Let it go. It's over."
(We DID that after the 2000 election debacle, on the grounds of "letting the country's divisions heal." Thus, we got even more interference with fair elections in 2002 and now, especially, in 2004.) You've got to do the CHALLENGES NOW and you've got to get the public's attention NOW.

Second, given the closeness of the margin in many races, it's quite possible a timely audit can still produce a fair and just count before January.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:54 PM

It's already been pretty much proved that Max Cleland lost his Senate seat in Georgia to the black box machines that we allow to be run totally by private companies. (There was an investigation via the FOI act and it was found there was a "patch" used to distort the vote tally.   Many in the media blame Cleland's defeat on a smear campaign by the Karl Rove machine, but as it turns out, the machine did it.

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Bill D
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:53 PM

here are a bunch of pages I have been sent about the results. I don't necessarily believe/agree with them all, as conspiracy theories are as common as cheating and vote rigging, but they all bear reading and thinking. I am SURE there were some attempts to stack the deck--whether that made the difference, I am not prepared to say. I do believe that there is at least some facts in all the hype. I also doubt it will ever be proved or make any difference. All we can do is try to find out and, IF it is true, avoid it in the future.


http://www.legitgov.org/pressrelease_stolen_election_2004_110404.html

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won.php

http://www.geocities.com/wcheated/markcrispinmiller.html

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x1321453

http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2004/112004/11022004/1102problemsforweb

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/news/content/news/politics/election2004/110204voting.html

http://ustogether.org/Florida_Election.htm

http://www.motherjones.com/commentary/columns/2004/03/03_200.html

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: jaze
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM

I heard on the radio today that in Ohio, one princinct where 600 people voted, the machine credited Bush with 4200 votes. This is frightening. How many other machines "malfunctioned"??

Subject: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:48 PM

BlackBoxVoting.org

Subject: RE: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:45 PM

Exit Polls vs. Election Results / Paper vs. Electronic Ballot

Subject: BS: Help! The computer ate OH & FL votes!
From: Genie
Date: 05 Nov 04 - 07:42 PM

This is a situation seriously in need of immediate attention and public scrutiny.


Graphic: Exit Polls Compared to "Actual" Vote / paper ballot vs. black box voting



Many of us have been outraged, from the outset, that the US would allow its election to involve electronic voting machines that offer no way of validating or verifying the accuracy of their results and whose source code is "proprietary" to the companies that design and manufacture them (not even election officials can check the "insides" of the machines to detect fraud or random error).

Now there is striking evidence that the use of these machines probably not only gave George W Bush both Florida and Ohio -- and thus the electoral college majority -- but inflated the margin of his win in many states that would have gone "red" anyway (e.g., N. Carolina) and deflated Kerry's majority in other states that went "blue" (e.g., New Hampshire).

One major way this was done was via the unverifiable vote counts of the "black box" electronic voting machines in which over 30% of the nation's votes were cast. Lots of info on this is available at
blackboxvoting.org
and
gregpalast.com, but here is a very important graphic comparing exit polls to official vote counts in some states with and some without the electronic machines.

Exit Polls vs. Election "Results" With Paper Ballots Vs. "Black Box" Voting Machines
http://therandirhodesshow.com/todays_show.html



PLEASE PASS THIS INFO TO EVERYONE you know -- Democrat, Republican, or Independent -- who really cares about having a FAIR election. There is still a chance that we can DEMAND an investigation into these irregularities (plus other types of voter disenfranchisement) before it's too late for this year. The electoral college doesn't meet till December and new Senators and Representatives won't take office till January. Time is of the essence, but there is still time.

Our best weapon here is to bring this to the attention of the public and force the media to deal with it.

Bev Harris and Greg Palast, of blackboxvoting.org have been fighting to bring this issue to mainstream attention for several years, and now they are positioned to file multiple suits under the Freedom Of Information act to demand an audit of the electronic voting machines' programming and source codes.   Please support them in this effort, even if it's only $5 per person. Since the lapdog TV media are more interested in the Scott Peterson trial than with the survival of our democracy, this kind of pressure is about the only leverage we as voters have, and it's too important to just roll over again!

Even if we don't prevail for 2004, we MUST get this outrage fixed before the 2002 elections, and that means NOT letting the issue drop out of public awareness, the way Democrats did with the frauds and errors of the 2000 election.

Jeanene Pratt